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On March 19 2012 14:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 14:23 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 19 2012 13:46 bokeevboke wrote:
I'm a bit sceptic person. So my comment on this would be:
You know how hollywood works these days, they make a movie, not necessarily a masterpiece, then they start a big PR campaign where they try to lure in every goddamn person to watch the movie (shit movie most of the times). Then they try to hit some calendaric events making movies about valentines day, christmas or independence day, That day everyone kinda has to go and see the movie to celebrate the event. So basically its a short period trick, where people are not aware of quality of the product before they watch it.
Starcraft 2 was the same, it was sold a lot in first days, it was fine product. People were glad they bought it, but gradually they lost interest (my reasoning is that the game wasn't really good and didn't have sustaibability). People already formed their opinion now. Some think its perfect, some think its meh and some think its total garbage. And then all of a sudden, Morhaime thinks the game is not selling well, and tries to make a move, like a good PR and to be friends with Kespa, it will prompt everyone to buy their shit. But its not gonna work. SC2 already had its time and lost it. People know everything about the game and no matter how you PR its not gonna change people's opinion. Sorry SC2, I wanted you to be great. But it ain't gonna happen.
Too go further on this point I just hope that Blizzard take away from this lesson that it wasn't that esports was the wrong goal, its that SC2 didn't take the necessary steps to achieve the esports goal. LoL (and possibly Dota 2) is a prime example here. Hiring Browder to create an esport game. Perhaps compared to the rest of the cast he might have been the best guy for the job, who knows. Its clear though he was too ambitious with his decision making in the first stages, and I feel that he didn't want to learn much about the old game because maybe he felt it would detract from his creativity. But it led to some blunders like "the wraith is not for esports" (if you've seen two port wraith builds, you would know what I mean), "zergling vs high templar analogy", etc. I honestly feel just having the wraith instead of viking/banshee would have made a huge difference to skill and creativity in the game. You can tell there's been a bit of a flip come HotS, with the Swarm Host [lurker], Viper [defiler], with units that are actually implemented with a purpose and lots of utility rather than just make them cool, but I feel it is getting too late. Even though there were countless threads on TL and BNET, Blizzard had to just wait and see first hand to finally come to terms with it. I kind of wish Browder was in HotS mode of thought pre WoL. Although still why these BW-like units, and why not just bring the BW units back in? Failnet 2.0. Beaten to death. Entitlement. Suing Kespa. Imagine how different SC2 would be in Korea if it wasn't for this. Trust me when I say Gom was a terrible broadcaster of Starcraft, even in BW. Just looking at the OSL intros compared to GSL says a lot. I feel like it is kind of hard to gauge LoL with the freeware nature of it being considered. It doesn't have the same economic policies driving it (which can be good or bad) but overall doesn't allow us to predict how its doing since there is not a whole lot of precident for major games doing this. Because its free, you cant really use user activity or # of copys as a strong gauge of success. Everything is so transient. Whos to say that come DOTA2, all these big LoL numbers are not just going to jump ship to DoTA2 or the next big free Moba game? Everyone can play and there is no real commitment to stay (like monetary investment or whatever).
That's true. I'm sourcing this purely from LoL viewer numbers. My point is that LoL had much better esports drivers to get to that goal. Just look at their UI, and see that it is quite esport focused (at least compared to BNET 2.0)
Maybe everyone will jump ship to Dota 2 (would be great because Dota is much more fun to watch and play). Dota 2 has the most amazing UI I've ever seen, I think it will be great competition, although because they are going to have to play catchup as LoL is already signed with OGN.
Meepo, SA, Invoker, Techies are great examples of characters that create BW-esque WTF JUST HAPPENED moments. It is a lot rarer in LoL, but in Dota 2 massive comebacks happen quite often.
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United Kingdom3249 Posts
On March 19 2012 13:46 bokeevboke wrote:
I'm a bit sceptic person. So my comment on this would be:
You know how hollywood works these days, they make a movie, not necessarily a masterpiece, then they start a big PR campaign where they try to lure in every goddamn person to watch the movie (shit movie most of the times). Then they try to hit some calendaric events making movies about valentines day, christmas or independence day, That day everyone kinda has to go and see the movie to celebrate the event. So basically its a short period trick, where people are not aware of quality of the product before they watch it.
Starcraft 2 was the same, it was sold a lot in first days, it was fine product. People were glad they bought it, but gradually they lost interest (my reasoning is that the game wasn't really good and didn't have sustaibability). People already formed their opinion now. Some think its perfect, some think its meh and some think its total garbage. And then all of a sudden, Morhaime thinks the game is not selling well, and tries to make a move, like a good PR and to be friends with Kespa, it will prompt everyone to buy their shit. But its not gonna work. SC2 already had its time and lost it. People know everything about the game and no matter how you PR its not gonna change people's opinion. Sorry SC2, I wanted you to be great. But it ain't gonna happen.
For a self-proclaimed skeptic, you sure are making a lot of assumptions...
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On March 19 2012 14:46 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 05:49 IntoTheheart wrote:On March 19 2012 04:57 Nightshade_ wrote:
And all the Broodwar diehards are realizing that Starcraft 2 may make Broodwar... Die hard.... League of Legends is taking over, dude. SC2 might kill BW, but SC2 might not last to the same extent LoL will. No, I don't think LoL will be an esport in the way that BW was. The major difference is that BW is intuitive in a general sense, even to someone who has never played SC. You understand that the players are making armies to kill each other, because it's a war game. That's one of the major factors that contributed to it being televised. LoL on the other hand? It's much more difficult to even interpret what the players are trying to accomplish if you haven't played the game much. For that reason, I don't see it appealing to a more generalized audience too much. Even if SC2 isn't it, my opinion is that war-based RTS games will have to be the major catalysts of esports, because those are the only kinds of video games (that I can think of) that have an extremely intuitive entertainment value. That said, my suspicion is that most of these BW people who are saying LoL will kill SC2 are just saying that out of spite and immaturity. I don't think there's any actual evidence of LoL's growth harming SC2.
Up to this date BW and SC2 in Korea has been declining in popularity and players while LoL gained players and viewers each day. That is a fact. LoL has taken away those people from SC2 because of lack of exposure. SC2 only had GOM. But however, you never know what will actually happen when sc2 proleague starts. It can be a big flop or major success because people will have easier access to SC2 content
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On March 19 2012 15:01 goding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 14:46 Vul wrote:On March 19 2012 05:49 IntoTheheart wrote:On March 19 2012 04:57 Nightshade_ wrote:
And all the Broodwar diehards are realizing that Starcraft 2 may make Broodwar... Die hard.... League of Legends is taking over, dude. SC2 might kill BW, but SC2 might not last to the same extent LoL will. No, I don't think LoL will be an esport in the way that BW was. The major difference is that BW is intuitive in a general sense, even to someone who has never played SC. You understand that the players are making armies to kill each other, because it's a war game. That's one of the major factors that contributed to it being televised. LoL on the other hand? It's much more difficult to even interpret what the players are trying to accomplish if you haven't played the game much. For that reason, I don't see it appealing to a more generalized audience too much. Even if SC2 isn't it, my opinion is that war-based RTS games will have to be the major catalysts of esports, because those are the only kinds of video games (that I can think of) that have an extremely intuitive entertainment value. That said, my suspicion is that most of these BW people who are saying LoL will kill SC2 are just saying that out of spite and immaturity. I don't think there's any actual evidence of LoL's growth harming SC2. Up to this date BW and SC2 in Korea has been declining in popularity and players while LoL gained players and viewers each day. That is a fact. LoL has taken away those people from SC2 because of lack of exposure. SC2 only had GOM. But however, you never know what will actually happen when sc2 proleague starts. It can be a big flop or major success because people will have easier access to SC2 content
My understanding is that the GSL has been slowly rising in viewership, can't find a good source though. Did you see some stats on this?
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On March 19 2012 14:46 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 05:49 IntoTheheart wrote:On March 19 2012 04:57 Nightshade_ wrote:
And all the Broodwar diehards are realizing that Starcraft 2 may make Broodwar... Die hard.... League of Legends is taking over, dude. SC2 might kill BW, but SC2 might not last to the same extent LoL will. No, I don't think LoL will be an esport in the way that BW was. The major difference is that BW is intuitive in a general sense, even to someone who has never played SC. You understand that the players are making armies to kill each other, because it's a war game. That's one of the major factors that contributed to it being televised.
I don't understand American football and Baseball at all, and I don't watch them. So are many people. These games are not appealing either. I can't make out in a slighest whats going on. But I'm pretty sure these are good games. People learn, play and watch them. Thats why they're popular. Same as LoL.
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On March 19 2012 15:16 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:01 goding wrote:On March 19 2012 14:46 Vul wrote:On March 19 2012 05:49 IntoTheheart wrote:On March 19 2012 04:57 Nightshade_ wrote:
And all the Broodwar diehards are realizing that Starcraft 2 may make Broodwar... Die hard.... League of Legends is taking over, dude. SC2 might kill BW, but SC2 might not last to the same extent LoL will. No, I don't think LoL will be an esport in the way that BW was. The major difference is that BW is intuitive in a general sense, even to someone who has never played SC. You understand that the players are making armies to kill each other, because it's a war game. That's one of the major factors that contributed to it being televised. LoL on the other hand? It's much more difficult to even interpret what the players are trying to accomplish if you haven't played the game much. For that reason, I don't see it appealing to a more generalized audience too much. Even if SC2 isn't it, my opinion is that war-based RTS games will have to be the major catalysts of esports, because those are the only kinds of video games (that I can think of) that have an extremely intuitive entertainment value. That said, my suspicion is that most of these BW people who are saying LoL will kill SC2 are just saying that out of spite and immaturity. I don't think there's any actual evidence of LoL's growth harming SC2. Up to this date BW and SC2 in Korea has been declining in popularity and players while LoL gained players and viewers each day. That is a fact. LoL has taken away those people from SC2 because of lack of exposure. SC2 only had GOM. But however, you never know what will actually happen when sc2 proleague starts. It can be a big flop or major success because people will have easier access to SC2 content My understanding is that the GSL has been slowly rising in viewership, can't find a good source though. Did you see some stats on this? I'm pretty sure it's on an upward trend as well. The last finals didn't even hold a K-Pop act to attract attention and still had enough people show up that they ran out of chairs. Heck, there were even people still coming in to watch while standing in the back. SC2 didn't start out huge in Korea and therefor it's a lot easier for growth to occur. I can't imagine a boost from KeSPA/OGN reversing that trend.
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I love Gom, I love GSL (Chae, etc.) more than anything else in the community. As long as this does not hurt Gom in any way, I am completely excited!
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You know how hollywood works these days, they make a movie, not necessarily a masterpiece, then they start a big PR campaign where they try to lure in every goddamn person to watch the movie
That sounds like Mass Effect3...
they make a game, not necessarily a masterpiece, then they start a big PR campaign where they try to lure in every goddamn person to play the game.
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On March 17 2012 15:55 darkcloud8282 wrote:
I hope Blizzard is able to come to terms with Kespa before LoL dominates the e-sports scene in Korea..
Haha, I don't know how realistic it will be for LoL to "dominate" the esports scene, but I agree that Blizzard and Kespsa need to get this done soon. SC2 needs a stim-pack into the korean scene.
It will be really interesting to watch the transition from BW to SC2 occur in Korea. I'm curious to see how the moves are received by the fans.
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On March 19 2012 15:16 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:01 goding wrote:On March 19 2012 14:46 Vul wrote:On March 19 2012 05:49 IntoTheheart wrote:On March 19 2012 04:57 Nightshade_ wrote:
And all the Broodwar diehards are realizing that Starcraft 2 may make Broodwar... Die hard.... League of Legends is taking over, dude. SC2 might kill BW, but SC2 might not last to the same extent LoL will. No, I don't think LoL will be an esport in the way that BW was. The major difference is that BW is intuitive in a general sense, even to someone who has never played SC. You understand that the players are making armies to kill each other, because it's a war game. That's one of the major factors that contributed to it being televised. LoL on the other hand? It's much more difficult to even interpret what the players are trying to accomplish if you haven't played the game much. For that reason, I don't see it appealing to a more generalized audience too much. Even if SC2 isn't it, my opinion is that war-based RTS games will have to be the major catalysts of esports, because those are the only kinds of video games (that I can think of) that have an extremely intuitive entertainment value. That said, my suspicion is that most of these BW people who are saying LoL will kill SC2 are just saying that out of spite and immaturity. I don't think there's any actual evidence of LoL's growth harming SC2. Up to this date BW and SC2 in Korea has been declining in popularity and players while LoL gained players and viewers each day. That is a fact. LoL has taken away those people from SC2 because of lack of exposure. SC2 only had GOM. But however, you never know what will actually happen when sc2 proleague starts. It can be a big flop or major success because people will have easier access to SC2 content My understanding is that the GSL has been slowly rising in viewership, can't find a good source though. Did you see some stats on this?
There was someone with VOD counts of each season and it has been declining each time. Im too lazy to look it up but it was fairly recent. I think it was up to mid 2011
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On March 19 2012 15:41 goding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:16 Vul wrote:On March 19 2012 15:01 goding wrote:On March 19 2012 14:46 Vul wrote:On March 19 2012 05:49 IntoTheheart wrote:On March 19 2012 04:57 Nightshade_ wrote:
And all the Broodwar diehards are realizing that Starcraft 2 may make Broodwar... Die hard.... League of Legends is taking over, dude. SC2 might kill BW, but SC2 might not last to the same extent LoL will. No, I don't think LoL will be an esport in the way that BW was. The major difference is that BW is intuitive in a general sense, even to someone who has never played SC. You understand that the players are making armies to kill each other, because it's a war game. That's one of the major factors that contributed to it being televised. LoL on the other hand? It's much more difficult to even interpret what the players are trying to accomplish if you haven't played the game much. For that reason, I don't see it appealing to a more generalized audience too much. Even if SC2 isn't it, my opinion is that war-based RTS games will have to be the major catalysts of esports, because those are the only kinds of video games (that I can think of) that have an extremely intuitive entertainment value. That said, my suspicion is that most of these BW people who are saying LoL will kill SC2 are just saying that out of spite and immaturity. I don't think there's any actual evidence of LoL's growth harming SC2. Up to this date BW and SC2 in Korea has been declining in popularity and players while LoL gained players and viewers each day. That is a fact. LoL has taken away those people from SC2 because of lack of exposure. SC2 only had GOM. But however, you never know what will actually happen when sc2 proleague starts. It can be a big flop or major success because people will have easier access to SC2 content My understanding is that the GSL has been slowly rising in viewership, can't find a good source though. Did you see some stats on this? There was someone with VOD counts of each season and it has been declining each time. Im too lazy to look it up but it was fairly recent. I think it was up to mid 2011
But it does seem like the live viewership in Korea is on the rise. Code S crowds look really solid (not just packed with foreigners) and the finals seem to be doing better as well.
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On March 19 2012 15:41 goding wrote:
There was someone with VOD counts of each season and it has been declining each time. Im too lazy to look it up but it was fairly recent. I think it was up to mid 2011
I'd be interested to see that. A quick search hasn't didn't turn up much about gomtv ratings except this:
http://www.complexitygaming.com/news/2969/
They could be counting individual views, even from the same person, as individual viewers to fluff the numbers. But still, sounds pretty decent. I'd really like to see a source on declining viewership.
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On March 19 2012 15:41 goding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:16 Vul wrote:
My understanding is that the GSL has been slowly rising in viewership, can't find a good source though. Did you see some stats on this?
There was someone with VOD counts of each season and it has been declining each time. Im too lazy to look it up but it was fairly recent. I think it was up to mid 2011
Anecdotally for me, that's because there's been an explosion of SC2 content to consume. I simply don't have time to watch everything, and I favor live content to old VODs.
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On March 19 2012 14:46 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 05:49 IntoTheheart wrote:On March 19 2012 04:57 Nightshade_ wrote:
And all the Broodwar diehards are realizing that Starcraft 2 may make Broodwar... Die hard.... League of Legends is taking over, dude. SC2 might kill BW, but SC2 might not last to the same extent LoL will. No, I don't think LoL will be an esport in the way that BW was. The major difference is that BW is intuitive in a general sense, even to someone who has never played SC. You understand that the players are making armies to kill each other, because it's a war game. That's one of the major factors that contributed to it being televised. LoL on the other hand? It's much more difficult to even interpret what the players are trying to accomplish if you haven't played the game much. For that reason, I don't see it appealing to a more generalized audience too much. Even if SC2 isn't it, my opinion is that war-based RTS games will have to be the major catalysts of esports, because those are the only kinds of video games (that I can think of) that have an extremely intuitive entertainment value. That said, my suspicion is that most of these BW people who are saying LoL will kill SC2 are just saying that out of spite and immaturity. I don't think there's any actual evidence of LoL's growth harming SC2.
I think SC2 still has a skill level that's not reached yet. Watching MMA play vs Z proves it. His play may not be 100% clean and flawless, but it's sure as hell exciting and awesome to watch, just like watching a high level BW game where engagements are all over the place.
For one, I'm really excited to see how the game would look like in the hands of top level BW players.
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Is this graph taking data at a certain amount of time after the season actually airs, or is it total lifetime views? If it's the latter, isn't it kinda obvious that the VODs that have been up longer have more views?
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On March 19 2012 16:28 Kiyo. wrote:Is this graph taking data at a certain amount of time after the season actually airs, or is it total lifetime views? If it's the latter, isn't it kinda obvious that the VODs that have been up longer have more views?
It was taken every end of each month.
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On March 19 2012 16:29 goding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 16:28 Kiyo. wrote:Is this graph taking data at a certain amount of time after the season actually airs, or is it total lifetime views? If it's the latter, isn't it kinda obvious that the VODs that have been up longer have more views? It was taken every end of each month.
So it is total views on the VODs, not a set amount of time after the season ends.
Doesn't it make sense then that the older VODs have more views?
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will bw be retired? this would be an official reason for all sc1 pros to switch over, or do their time in the military.
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On March 19 2012 16:33 Kiyo. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 16:29 goding wrote:On March 19 2012 16:28 Kiyo. wrote:Is this graph taking data at a certain amount of time after the season actually airs, or is it total lifetime views? If it's the latter, isn't it kinda obvious that the VODs that have been up longer have more views? It was taken every end of each month. So it is total views on the VODs, not a set amount of time after the season ends. Doesn't it make sense then that the older VODs have more views?
I am not sure what you are specifically asking.But at end of each month, view number of each VODs were counted and added up at that time
So there was no more than one month accumulative view counts.
They didnt count in month such as November to count for Jan. It would void the whole thing
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/e31ri.png)
