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On March 20 2012 04:39 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:21 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 04:17 Kakaru2 wrote:On March 20 2012 04:11 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 04:09 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 03:41 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 01:59 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 01:33 Blasterion wrote:On March 20 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 01:14 Blasterion wrote:
[quote]
nope but it's a damn good one. yup and absolutly necessary in SC2, but not generally in RTS, like the whole defenders advantage concept is not generally needed to make a good RTS But that's exactly why Sc2 is a deathball game, nobody wants to make small to medium scale aggressions because of a lack of defender's advantage, If you lose your small aggression his now bigger army can run you over, So you have players sitting on their units until 200/200 for this so called epic battle. Which is just terrible game design. Protoss defies that defender's advantage, always reinforces first. and can chrono boost their reinforcement. I think the problem is pretty clear. I disagree. In my opinion the defenders advantage is too big. But that's not because of any crazy defenders mechanics, but because the economy is too big in SC2. You will nearly always attack with 20 less supply than your opponent defends with, because army creation is too fast. So the only way to get aggressive is to sacrifice economy for army most of the time, which leaves the game in an awkward situation, in which you either balance the game around "semi-allins" being an efficient strategy, and/or turteling being an efficient strategy, but never "just walking out and attacking" being efficient - due to the amount of units produced in the time it takes you to walk across. I think this thread describes the problem the best: too much money in the game leads to too little time in which an active army is actually useful, therefore activness is often not rewarding which leads to one big army > several smaller armies and replacing > keeping alive. You realize this is exactly one of the massive problems with Terran.... The fact that Protoss is an EXCEPTION to that. Protoss can actually have more supply than you while attacking, even after you repel them. It's the reason why you need to win 6 fights in a row to beat down a Protoss but they usually only need to win 1 fight before stream rolling all the way to your natural. Protoss completely ignore map size and distance. Terran is the race hindered most by reinforcement distance, meaning that if we all in, it usually has to include SCVs, or it needs to be a completely unscouted push that the enemy is simply unprepared for. That's why every Protoss unit that comes from a warpgate is costinefficient compared to their Terran and Zerg "low Tier counterparts" and thereby Protoss has to have a more expensive army than the opponent to attack. All those things are completly fine, due to the costinefficiency of Protoss WG units, but where I do agree is that it becomes complicated when the question is not cost- but supplyefficiency, like in the scenarios in which both players hit a max and afterwards can reinforce from a bank, so costs don't matter as much, but production facilities do. In that scenarios Terran needs supplyefficient units to deal with the faster opponents supplyefficient reinforcements. In TvZ this is fine imo (a Terran usually does not die to lings/roaches which are easy to reinforce in the lategame due to mechanic supplyefficient units), in TvP it forces Terran to win the maxed engagement very efficiently. So the question is, is this consistently possible (~50% of the time)? With the current Terran aggressive TvP styles which don't build up many supplyefficient units but meanwhile focus on getting ahead/winning in the midgame by doing damage, I'd say it is not. With other styles, it might be. The question with those is, if they can achieve the same consistently strong overall winrates, or if they will drop below 50% and therefore have to be considered instable "cheese" strategies. No, they arent. You're entire post is based off a baseless assumption. And which is that? That warpgate is a broken mechanic? I have news for you, it is. Warpgate should be removed or nerfed, as in producing units from gateway is more time efficient. That together with buffing Protoss gateway units to compensate will lead to a much more better game. That Toss gateway units are somehow balanced to be weaker to compensate for the warpgate mechanic. Show me something concrete to prove that. I remember the OP of the Defender's Advantage post was claiming that and it was quickly determined that Blizzard had never said they balanced WP units that way ever. Marines are more cost efficient than anything non-AoE in the game. Roaches and lings are pretty good too. When you see pure gateway attacks work, it's always an all in the Protoss sacrificed everything else for and he has like twice the army value of his opponent, yet these all ins can be decently held. So yeah, Gateway units are not very efficient. You seem under the conviction than successful gateway attacks are done with equal army value, that's far from true. And obviously nobody uses pure gateway without templars lategame, so no use talking about that. What is very strong, and probably too much, is the 3-3 chargelots warp-ins after the Terran army has already been weakened by stim and Aoe damage.
???
Are we playing the same game? You're playing Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty, right? The game where you need a minimum of 2 bunkers, a ramp and mass SCV repair to hold off a gate way push? The game where protoss 3+ gate pressure into expansion no problem? Use FF and GS somewhat intelligently and gateway units can be the most cost efficient by far. Micro your units in the slightest and gateway units can be the most cost efficient by far. You're playing the game where Protoss will have equal or lower resource collection rate yet will have 3x the army value, right? I don't really see what is cost inneficient about Protoss units.
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On March 17 2012 17:49 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:There are couple of problems with terran race. Terran is just harder to play and yes this is coming from terran and I have beaten top EU players with offraces before so I know/did play other races - which makes casual players not wanting to invest more time into game than protoss or zerg. I wanted to make one thing clear, so often I see "terran got mules doesnt matter how many workers you kill". Every time something like this happends zerg or protoss sacrifice their tech in order to do so, 6g allin kills 20scvs or baneling bust kills 20 scvs but T still wins 5min after? Imagine if terran did 5 rax allin vs protoss with marines and protoss gets 3 colossus out and terran got only marines, but killed 20 probes, terran is still going to die just like terran kills zerg or protoss after losing scvs with medivac/stim or/and with tanks. Mules are NEEDED to keep up with zerg/toss early game because we dont have chrono boost or larva, after 10min you use mules for scans so people talking about mules being OP are just completely clueless about game. Are mules IMBA late game with 10 scvs and 50 orbitals? yes, is remaxing 200/200 in two warpins or zerg 200/200 in 20sec IMBA? yes. I'd always trade mules for warpin or larva late game. Making mistake as terran after 20min will cost you the game, there is no question about it 4-5 base vs 4-5 base and you mess up and lose 100 army supply and he got 150 left? you will die due to terran not being able to make units fast enough like Z and P can. This is frustrating for pros but for casual players as well and this thread isnt about GM/GSL level only its for all levels of play. TvZ requires a lot of apm from both sides, but what is problem again for lower league players is that terran is hard to micro, lets say bronze league TvZ, zerg makes 50 banelings and terran got 3-5 tanks and mass marine 1) he wont split 2) he wont split siege tanks (sieged) and all zerg needs is to a-move in order to win, because a-moving with ling and bling is a lot harder than spliting marines and doing siege in good position/on time. Players who dont want to invest time into game will rather play zerg or protoss instead terran, who wouldnt? TvP is just not balanced in late game, I talked to Slayers terrans and I will quote them "protoss 3-3 terran die" and "protoss T_T". What is the problem in TvP? Zealots have too much hp and are too cost effective units which makes them broken in late game along with warpin. One missmicro from T and you will die. Another problem is terran not having T3 units and having to fight with T1 and T2 whole game, Thors and BC's (if we count them as T3) are a joke and the ghost nerf screwed TvP even more than TvZ because you cant snipe zealots anymore which helped A LOT before. If you watch GSL you would know that every terran is allining protoss and those who dont die in hilarious fashion. All of this makes people not wanting to play terran. What us terrans want? and im pretty sure I talk for everyone who plays terran now. We dont want our race easier or boost our marines or marauders, we want viable T3 and if in order to win we need to split marines vs banelings, why does protoss needs to a-move for zealots? Why is there smart AI (or how you call it) that make them auto-surround terran bio? Make protoss have hotkey to use charge every 10sec and if they a-move zealots get stuck one behind another till you micro them just like with ranged units when you a-move the first one to get in range will shoot and those behind will run around, please do same for melee units. We want other races micro to be harder and more rewarding just like terran units are like now, just like blink stalkers or mutas are. My games this season on high GM are: 123 TvP 40.32% 106 TvZ 34.75% 76 TvT 24.91% There is no doubt more and more people keep quiting playing terran and this isnt whine post, this just just a FACT post and stats support what everyone one of us is saying. TLDR: 1) terran requires too much time invested in order to win games, 2) mules are comeback unit only if you sacrificed tech to kill scvs, 3) terran has no T3 units, 4) give other races more micro options and more micro rewarding units. extra: I will always play terran because I have self respect 
so by your post i can see TvT is imbalanced
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On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining?  I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever.
I assure you I am not trolling. Maybe I'm just stupid, I cannot judge that. But just because he generalizes to what sounds to me standard protoss play doesn't quite means he has clearly no understanding whatsoever. Which I asked of you to eleborate on.
I tend to agree with him on point 4 and 5 and I don't see how this is a generalization which apparently means a lack of understanding. Almost every terran in this thread seems to lack that understanding to some degree. Coincidence?
I mean I don't say he's 100% right but I would agree with him if he had chosen his words more carefully. I don't understand why that makes a player have a lack of understanding
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On March 20 2012 04:36 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. You can't play a lot of ladder then. That's how 90% play. Hell, that's how I play Protoss.
I played 250 1v1 this season so far.
What are you talking about? I assume you are referring to point 4? You a-move your deathball? You clearly can't be playing any kind of high level Protoss on ladder. You're point doesn't have anything to do with the thread either. Please stop derailing this all the time. You say something completely unrelated and without sense to a reply to a reply to a post I made earlier. I don't get what you are trying to do. If your post would at least make sense. hm... I will not reply to this anymore because it is not what this thread is about. Please pm me if you want to talk about anything else but vanishing Terrans
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On March 20 2012 05:10 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:03 itsjuspeter wrote:On March 20 2012 04:58 Blasterion wrote:On March 20 2012 04:56 itsjuspeter wrote:On March 20 2012 04:36 VoO wrote:On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. You can't play a lot of ladder then. That's how 90% play. Hell, that's how I play Protoss. Really? That's how 90% play? I can make up statistics too, 100% of Terrans think Protoss is OP according to this thread. But honestly, not every protoss plays the way "you do". I play with timing attacks and when I feel like it I will do safe SG expo into a third. It's not "turtle on 3 bases and win every game" We all do different things in different matchups. My GM protoss friends can attest to that and so can I. You can probably do the turtle/roll with deathball strat up to diamond, but it wont work as well any higher. You obviously didn't read the entire thread then You obviously didn't get my post. I merely suggested I'm making up a statistic, please comprehend that. As to why I did not agree with the final reply was, the original post is baseless and assumes a protoss will turtle to 3 bases and roll. The last post agreed that "90%" do it anyway so why not? I'm saying this isn't true and that you can't make such a statement, you're just countering baseless assumptions with more baseless assumption. Please understand something thoroughly before replying. Thanks. There's little effort I can spend on someone that just throws around random statistics that has no content in it. People like you for example. Sorry that I didn't bother to spent any effort reading trash posts. I understand anyone would want their posts recognized, even those that they spend no thoughts into I formally apologize for my curt answer previously.
Haha, alright you clearly had no understanding of anything that was written and in frustration resorted to personal attacks about "people like me and my trash posts". It's fine you don't understand even after I attempted to tell you the purpose of my post. Actually I posted that to tell you I don't like made up statistics as well but of course you didn't comprehend that either before replying as I politely asked you to reevaluate and understand what I'm saying before replying. I leave you be now.
EDIT: The post above me describes probably better what I attempted state in my first post about the post in focus. Thank you.
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On March 20 2012 04:56 itsjuspeter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:36 VoO wrote:On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. You can't play a lot of ladder then. That's how 90% play. Hell, that's how I play Protoss. Really? That's how 90% play? I can make up statistics too, 100% of Terrans think Protoss is OP according to this thread. But honestly, not every protoss plays the way "you do". I play with timing attacks and when I feel like it I will do safe SG expo into a third. It's not "turtle on 3 bases and win every game" We all do different things in different matchups. My GM protoss friends can attest to that and so can I. You can probably do the turtle/roll with deathball strat up to diamond, but it wont work as well any higher.
Wrong, every game in master is either cheese or 20 minute turtle. Never ever had any other game and I mean ever ever. I've never ever seen a Protoss in 3000 games who didn't turtle or cheese. Sometimes, although extremely rare, they try to do good things like colossus or sentry drop while turtling. In Master it's always: 3 Gate Voidray (very common), 4-5 Gate (common), 2 Gate (rare) or 1 Gate FE sometimes with 3 Stalker rush (rare)/2 Colossus timing (rare)/6 Gate all-in (very rare).
Especially 3 Gate Voidray is so extremely strong that even as high master you need a good portion of luck to defend against it.
Once you know how to handle 1-1-1, 3 rax stim all in, 2 rax poke do you actually fear anything the Terran can do? Cause I don't , I can't imagine anything except my own mistakes, e.g. forget splitting my army, pulling colossus back, focus fire with immortals/stalker, engaging in a choke point, supply blocks.
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On March 20 2012 05:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:21 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 04:17 Kakaru2 wrote:On March 20 2012 04:11 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 04:09 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 03:41 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 01:59 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 01:33 Blasterion wrote:On March 20 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 01:14 Blasterion wrote:
[quote]
nope but it's a damn good one. yup and absolutly necessary in SC2, but not generally in RTS, like the whole defenders advantage concept is not generally needed to make a good RTS But that's exactly why Sc2 is a deathball game, nobody wants to make small to medium scale aggressions because of a lack of defender's advantage, If you lose your small aggression his now bigger army can run you over, So you have players sitting on their units until 200/200 for this so called epic battle. Which is just terrible game design. Protoss defies that defender's advantage, always reinforces first. and can chrono boost their reinforcement. I think the problem is pretty clear. I disagree. In my opinion the defenders advantage is too big. But that's not because of any crazy defenders mechanics, but because the economy is too big in SC2. You will nearly always attack with 20 less supply than your opponent defends with, because army creation is too fast. So the only way to get aggressive is to sacrifice economy for army most of the time, which leaves the game in an awkward situation, in which you either balance the game around "semi-allins" being an efficient strategy, and/or turteling being an efficient strategy, but never "just walking out and attacking" being efficient - due to the amount of units produced in the time it takes you to walk across. I think this thread describes the problem the best: too much money in the game leads to too little time in which an active army is actually useful, therefore activness is often not rewarding which leads to one big army > several smaller armies and replacing > keeping alive. You realize this is exactly one of the massive problems with Terran.... The fact that Protoss is an EXCEPTION to that. Protoss can actually have more supply than you while attacking, even after you repel them. It's the reason why you need to win 6 fights in a row to beat down a Protoss but they usually only need to win 1 fight before stream rolling all the way to your natural. Protoss completely ignore map size and distance. Terran is the race hindered most by reinforcement distance, meaning that if we all in, it usually has to include SCVs, or it needs to be a completely unscouted push that the enemy is simply unprepared for. That's why every Protoss unit that comes from a warpgate is costinefficient compared to their Terran and Zerg "low Tier counterparts" and thereby Protoss has to have a more expensive army than the opponent to attack. All those things are completly fine, due to the costinefficiency of Protoss WG units, but where I do agree is that it becomes complicated when the question is not cost- but supplyefficiency, like in the scenarios in which both players hit a max and afterwards can reinforce from a bank, so costs don't matter as much, but production facilities do. In that scenarios Terran needs supplyefficient units to deal with the faster opponents supplyefficient reinforcements. In TvZ this is fine imo (a Terran usually does not die to lings/roaches which are easy to reinforce in the lategame due to mechanic supplyefficient units), in TvP it forces Terran to win the maxed engagement very efficiently. So the question is, is this consistently possible (~50% of the time)? With the current Terran aggressive TvP styles which don't build up many supplyefficient units but meanwhile focus on getting ahead/winning in the midgame by doing damage, I'd say it is not. With other styles, it might be. The question with those is, if they can achieve the same consistently strong overall winrates, or if they will drop below 50% and therefore have to be considered instable "cheese" strategies. No, they arent. You're entire post is based off a baseless assumption. And which is that? That warpgate is a broken mechanic? I have news for you, it is. Warpgate should be removed or nerfed, as in producing units from gateway is more time efficient. That together with buffing Protoss gateway units to compensate will lead to a much more better game. That Toss gateway units are somehow balanced to be weaker to compensate for the warpgate mechanic. Show me something concrete to prove that. I remember the OP of the Defender's Advantage post was claiming that and it was quickly determined that Blizzard had never said they balanced WP units that way ever. Just go to any unit tester and do even amounts of ressource battles; roaches and lings win, as well as Marine/Marauder. Whenever a Protoss goes for a bust, he is cutting most lategame tech, upgrades and probes for it, chronoboosting his warp gates and has worked for a special unit setup (often sentryheavy for the FFs; or specific immortal counts) to begin with. All those busts are timed to hit in a phase in which gateways finish to create "ressource banked" timings and usually hit just when standard Terran has invested into tech (usually medivacs, upgrades or ghosts when we talk about 2base timings; stim and shields when we talk about one base timings) but can't quite profit from it yet, so protoss actually just has more stuff on the battlefield.
I'd sympathise with you a little bit if those upgrades and tech weren't mandatory for Terran users in order for bio to stand a chance against gateway units. Without, stim/cc/concussive/medivacs, you can't leave your ramp as Terran.
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On March 20 2012 05:14 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. I assure you I am not trolling. Maybe I'm just stupid, I cannot judge that. But just because he generalizes to what sounds to me standard protoss play doesn't quite means he has clearly no understanding whatsoever. Which I asked of you to eleborate on. I tend to agree with him on point 4 and 5 and I don't see how this is a generalization which apparently means a lack of understanding. Almost every terran in this thread seems to lack that understanding to some degree. Coincidence?
So you are literally saying that Protoss does not require micro. You are also saying that Protoss just needs to turtle to a deathball on three bases and then simply a-move (we already established no micro!).
You have to be trolling.
User was warned for this post
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i hate playing tvz...its horrible...i hate people who don't get muta's and just go ling/banes and maybe a few infestor... its to f'n cheesy. yeah I'm like gold/silver...but splitting marines is hard when they put all there gas into just banes and tanks don't focus them down fast enough.
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On March 20 2012 01:33 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 01:14 Blasterion wrote:On March 20 2012 00:41 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 00:07 Blasterion wrote:On March 19 2012 23:51 Big J wrote:On March 19 2012 23:31 Blasterion wrote:
I think the biggest issue is still warp in since it's completely mindfucks the defender's advantage. Something that's so default and important in an RTS
But then again I am a Terran player and Terran players are manly so it's ok Once upon a time, people actually knew the difference between RTS and Broodwar. Sad times, in which BW-like play is the only way professional RTS games are allowed to be played. Unlike what you imagined, no Koreans didn't have warp in in Age of Empires 2 they had War Wagons and Turtleships Unlike what you imagine, there is something called "new" in the world... I know, that's really creative and scary for a lot of people. Things that are there but have not been there since the big bang, imagine how different things can become with those type of things... :O Imagine there could be RTS games without defenders advantage :O Imagine there are already RTS games that are great fun and have way less defenders advantages than SC2 (walking distance isn't the only defenders advantage ) nope but it's a damn good one. yup and absolutly necessary in SC2, but not generally in RTS, like the whole defenders advantage concept is not generally needed to make a good RTS But that's exactly why Sc2 is a deathball game, nobody wants to make small to medium scale aggressions because of a lack of defender's advantage, If you lose your small aggression his now bigger army can run you over, So you have players sitting on their units until 200/200 for this so called epic battle. Which is just terrible game design. Protoss defies that defender's advantage, always reinforces first. and can chrono boost their reinforcement. I think the problem is pretty clear.
Walking distance is eliminated for Protoss gateway reinforcements, but not for Colossus, Immortal, or the opposite side's reinforcements, unless the Protoss is at their front door while the opposing side is maxed, or it's a PvP.
Though I agree that it's a stupid mechanic. That, and Fungal growth, and to a lesser extent Forcefield.
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On March 20 2012 05:13 GizmoPT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 17:49 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:There are couple of problems with terran race. Terran is just harder to play and yes this is coming from terran and I have beaten top EU players with offraces before so I know/did play other races - which makes casual players not wanting to invest more time into game than protoss or zerg. I wanted to make one thing clear, so often I see "terran got mules doesnt matter how many workers you kill". Every time something like this happends zerg or protoss sacrifice their tech in order to do so, 6g allin kills 20scvs or baneling bust kills 20 scvs but T still wins 5min after? Imagine if terran did 5 rax allin vs protoss with marines and protoss gets 3 colossus out and terran got only marines, but killed 20 probes, terran is still going to die just like terran kills zerg or protoss after losing scvs with medivac/stim or/and with tanks. Mules are NEEDED to keep up with zerg/toss early game because we dont have chrono boost or larva, after 10min you use mules for scans so people talking about mules being OP are just completely clueless about game. Are mules IMBA late game with 10 scvs and 50 orbitals? yes, is remaxing 200/200 in two warpins or zerg 200/200 in 20sec IMBA? yes. I'd always trade mules for warpin or larva late game. Making mistake as terran after 20min will cost you the game, there is no question about it 4-5 base vs 4-5 base and you mess up and lose 100 army supply and he got 150 left? you will die due to terran not being able to make units fast enough like Z and P can. This is frustrating for pros but for casual players as well and this thread isnt about GM/GSL level only its for all levels of play. TvZ requires a lot of apm from both sides, but what is problem again for lower league players is that terran is hard to micro, lets say bronze league TvZ, zerg makes 50 banelings and terran got 3-5 tanks and mass marine 1) he wont split 2) he wont split siege tanks (sieged) and all zerg needs is to a-move in order to win, because a-moving with ling and bling is a lot harder than spliting marines and doing siege in good position/on time. Players who dont want to invest time into game will rather play zerg or protoss instead terran, who wouldnt? TvP is just not balanced in late game, I talked to Slayers terrans and I will quote them "protoss 3-3 terran die" and "protoss T_T". What is the problem in TvP? Zealots have too much hp and are too cost effective units which makes them broken in late game along with warpin. One missmicro from T and you will die. Another problem is terran not having T3 units and having to fight with T1 and T2 whole game, Thors and BC's (if we count them as T3) are a joke and the ghost nerf screwed TvP even more than TvZ because you cant snipe zealots anymore which helped A LOT before. If you watch GSL you would know that every terran is allining protoss and those who dont die in hilarious fashion. All of this makes people not wanting to play terran. What us terrans want? and im pretty sure I talk for everyone who plays terran now. We dont want our race easier or boost our marines or marauders, we want viable T3 and if in order to win we need to split marines vs banelings, why does protoss needs to a-move for zealots? Why is there smart AI (or how you call it) that make them auto-surround terran bio? Make protoss have hotkey to use charge every 10sec and if they a-move zealots get stuck one behind another till you micro them just like with ranged units when you a-move the first one to get in range will shoot and those behind will run around, please do same for melee units. We want other races micro to be harder and more rewarding just like terran units are like now, just like blink stalkers or mutas are. My games this season on high GM are: 123 TvP 40.32% 106 TvZ 34.75% 76 TvT 24.91% There is no doubt more and more people keep quiting playing terran and this isnt whine post, this just just a FACT post and stats support what everyone one of us is saying. TLDR: 1) terran requires too much time invested in order to win games, 2) mules are comeback unit only if you sacrificed tech to kill scvs, 3) terran has no T3 units, 4) give other races more micro options and more micro rewarding units. extra: I will always play terran because I have self respect so by your post i can see TvT is imbalanced
Beasty wasn't showing his win rate, he was showing the number of games.
Reading is a useful skill toi have .
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France12903 Posts
On March 20 2012 05:13 GizmoPT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 17:49 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:There are couple of problems with terran race. Terran is just harder to play and yes this is coming from terran and I have beaten top EU players with offraces before so I know/did play other races - which makes casual players not wanting to invest more time into game than protoss or zerg. I wanted to make one thing clear, so often I see "terran got mules doesnt matter how many workers you kill". Every time something like this happends zerg or protoss sacrifice their tech in order to do so, 6g allin kills 20scvs or baneling bust kills 20 scvs but T still wins 5min after? Imagine if terran did 5 rax allin vs protoss with marines and protoss gets 3 colossus out and terran got only marines, but killed 20 probes, terran is still going to die just like terran kills zerg or protoss after losing scvs with medivac/stim or/and with tanks. Mules are NEEDED to keep up with zerg/toss early game because we dont have chrono boost or larva, after 10min you use mules for scans so people talking about mules being OP are just completely clueless about game. Are mules IMBA late game with 10 scvs and 50 orbitals? yes, is remaxing 200/200 in two warpins or zerg 200/200 in 20sec IMBA? yes. I'd always trade mules for warpin or larva late game. Making mistake as terran after 20min will cost you the game, there is no question about it 4-5 base vs 4-5 base and you mess up and lose 100 army supply and he got 150 left? you will die due to terran not being able to make units fast enough like Z and P can. This is frustrating for pros but for casual players as well and this thread isnt about GM/GSL level only its for all levels of play. TvZ requires a lot of apm from both sides, but what is problem again for lower league players is that terran is hard to micro, lets say bronze league TvZ, zerg makes 50 banelings and terran got 3-5 tanks and mass marine 1) he wont split 2) he wont split siege tanks (sieged) and all zerg needs is to a-move in order to win, because a-moving with ling and bling is a lot harder than spliting marines and doing siege in good position/on time. Players who dont want to invest time into game will rather play zerg or protoss instead terran, who wouldnt? TvP is just not balanced in late game, I talked to Slayers terrans and I will quote them "protoss 3-3 terran die" and "protoss T_T". What is the problem in TvP? Zealots have too much hp and are too cost effective units which makes them broken in late game along with warpin. One missmicro from T and you will die. Another problem is terran not having T3 units and having to fight with T1 and T2 whole game, Thors and BC's (if we count them as T3) are a joke and the ghost nerf screwed TvP even more than TvZ because you cant snipe zealots anymore which helped A LOT before. If you watch GSL you would know that every terran is allining protoss and those who dont die in hilarious fashion. All of this makes people not wanting to play terran. What us terrans want? and im pretty sure I talk for everyone who plays terran now. We dont want our race easier or boost our marines or marauders, we want viable T3 and if in order to win we need to split marines vs banelings, why does protoss needs to a-move for zealots? Why is there smart AI (or how you call it) that make them auto-surround terran bio? Make protoss have hotkey to use charge every 10sec and if they a-move zealots get stuck one behind another till you micro them just like with ranged units when you a-move the first one to get in range will shoot and those behind will run around, please do same for melee units. We want other races micro to be harder and more rewarding just like terran units are like now, just like blink stalkers or mutas are. My games this season on high GM are: 123 TvP 40.32% 106 TvZ 34.75% 76 TvT 24.91% There is no doubt more and more people keep quiting playing terran and this isnt whine post, this just just a FACT post and stats support what everyone one of us is saying. TLDR: 1) terran requires too much time invested in order to win games, 2) mules are comeback unit only if you sacrificed tech to kill scvs, 3) terran has no T3 units, 4) give other races more micro options and more micro rewarding units. extra: I will always play terran because I have self respect so by your post i can see TvT is imbalanced
Hahaha I thought when reading his post that some people will misunderstand and think these percentages are winrate percents, and not number of match-up encounters, but seriously...
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On March 20 2012 05:17 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:14 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. I assure you I am not trolling. Maybe I'm just stupid, I cannot judge that. But just because he generalizes to what sounds to me standard protoss play doesn't quite means he has clearly no understanding whatsoever. Which I asked of you to eleborate on. I tend to agree with him on point 4 and 5 and I don't see how this is a generalization which apparently means a lack of understanding. Almost every terran in this thread seems to lack that understanding to some degree. Coincidence? So you are literally saying that Protoss does not require micro. You are also saying that Protoss just needs to turtle to a deathball on three bases and then simply a-move (we already established no micro!). You have to be trolling.
How is he trolling, and how are either of those statements untrue?
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On March 20 2012 05:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:21 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 04:17 Kakaru2 wrote:On March 20 2012 04:11 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 04:09 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 03:41 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 01:59 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 01:33 Blasterion wrote:On March 20 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 01:14 Blasterion wrote:
[quote]
nope but it's a damn good one. yup and absolutly necessary in SC2, but not generally in RTS, like the whole defenders advantage concept is not generally needed to make a good RTS But that's exactly why Sc2 is a deathball game, nobody wants to make small to medium scale aggressions because of a lack of defender's advantage, If you lose your small aggression his now bigger army can run you over, So you have players sitting on their units until 200/200 for this so called epic battle. Which is just terrible game design. Protoss defies that defender's advantage, always reinforces first. and can chrono boost their reinforcement. I think the problem is pretty clear. I disagree. In my opinion the defenders advantage is too big. But that's not because of any crazy defenders mechanics, but because the economy is too big in SC2. You will nearly always attack with 20 less supply than your opponent defends with, because army creation is too fast. So the only way to get aggressive is to sacrifice economy for army most of the time, which leaves the game in an awkward situation, in which you either balance the game around "semi-allins" being an efficient strategy, and/or turteling being an efficient strategy, but never "just walking out and attacking" being efficient - due to the amount of units produced in the time it takes you to walk across. I think this thread describes the problem the best: too much money in the game leads to too little time in which an active army is actually useful, therefore activness is often not rewarding which leads to one big army > several smaller armies and replacing > keeping alive. You realize this is exactly one of the massive problems with Terran.... The fact that Protoss is an EXCEPTION to that. Protoss can actually have more supply than you while attacking, even after you repel them. It's the reason why you need to win 6 fights in a row to beat down a Protoss but they usually only need to win 1 fight before stream rolling all the way to your natural. Protoss completely ignore map size and distance. Terran is the race hindered most by reinforcement distance, meaning that if we all in, it usually has to include SCVs, or it needs to be a completely unscouted push that the enemy is simply unprepared for. That's why every Protoss unit that comes from a warpgate is costinefficient compared to their Terran and Zerg "low Tier counterparts" and thereby Protoss has to have a more expensive army than the opponent to attack. All those things are completly fine, due to the costinefficiency of Protoss WG units, but where I do agree is that it becomes complicated when the question is not cost- but supplyefficiency, like in the scenarios in which both players hit a max and afterwards can reinforce from a bank, so costs don't matter as much, but production facilities do. In that scenarios Terran needs supplyefficient units to deal with the faster opponents supplyefficient reinforcements. In TvZ this is fine imo (a Terran usually does not die to lings/roaches which are easy to reinforce in the lategame due to mechanic supplyefficient units), in TvP it forces Terran to win the maxed engagement very efficiently. So the question is, is this consistently possible (~50% of the time)? With the current Terran aggressive TvP styles which don't build up many supplyefficient units but meanwhile focus on getting ahead/winning in the midgame by doing damage, I'd say it is not. With other styles, it might be. The question with those is, if they can achieve the same consistently strong overall winrates, or if they will drop below 50% and therefore have to be considered instable "cheese" strategies. No, they arent. You're entire post is based off a baseless assumption. And which is that? That warpgate is a broken mechanic? I have news for you, it is. Warpgate should be removed or nerfed, as in producing units from gateway is more time efficient. That together with buffing Protoss gateway units to compensate will lead to a much more better game. That Toss gateway units are somehow balanced to be weaker to compensate for the warpgate mechanic. Show me something concrete to prove that. I remember the OP of the Defender's Advantage post was claiming that and it was quickly determined that Blizzard had never said they balanced WP units that way ever. Just go to any unit tester and do even amounts of ressource battles; roaches and lings win, as well as Marine/Marauder. Whenever a Protoss goes for a bust, he is cutting most lategame tech, upgrades and probes for it, chronoboosting his warp gates and has worked for a special unit setup (often sentryheavy for the FFs; or specific immortal counts) to begin with. All those busts are timed to hit in a phase in which gateways finish to create "ressource banked" timings and usually hit just when standard Terran has invested into tech (usually medivacs, upgrades or ghosts when we talk about 2base timings; stim and shields when we talk about one base timings) but can't quite profit from it yet, so protoss actually just has more stuff on the battlefield.
I'm pretty sure chargelots under a guardian shield beat the crap out of marine/marauder in an a move situation. Don't forget, that archons are gateway units.
Yes, gateway units are crappy early game in the time window between 1) Terran completes bio upgrades (concussive and stim primarily) and 2) Toss completes twilight upgrades. Before time point 1), Stalker/zealots are at least equal to marine/marauder. After time point 2), I'd even say that toss is slightly favored now that zealots hit stuff.
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On March 20 2012 05:13 GizmoPT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 17:49 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:There are couple of problems with terran race. Terran is just harder to play and yes this is coming from terran and I have beaten top EU players with offraces before so I know/did play other races - which makes casual players not wanting to invest more time into game than protoss or zerg. I wanted to make one thing clear, so often I see "terran got mules doesnt matter how many workers you kill". Every time something like this happends zerg or protoss sacrifice their tech in order to do so, 6g allin kills 20scvs or baneling bust kills 20 scvs but T still wins 5min after? Imagine if terran did 5 rax allin vs protoss with marines and protoss gets 3 colossus out and terran got only marines, but killed 20 probes, terran is still going to die just like terran kills zerg or protoss after losing scvs with medivac/stim or/and with tanks. Mules are NEEDED to keep up with zerg/toss early game because we dont have chrono boost or larva, after 10min you use mules for scans so people talking about mules being OP are just completely clueless about game. Are mules IMBA late game with 10 scvs and 50 orbitals? yes, is remaxing 200/200 in two warpins or zerg 200/200 in 20sec IMBA? yes. I'd always trade mules for warpin or larva late game. Making mistake as terran after 20min will cost you the game, there is no question about it 4-5 base vs 4-5 base and you mess up and lose 100 army supply and he got 150 left? you will die due to terran not being able to make units fast enough like Z and P can. This is frustrating for pros but for casual players as well and this thread isnt about GM/GSL level only its for all levels of play. TvZ requires a lot of apm from both sides, but what is problem again for lower league players is that terran is hard to micro, lets say bronze league TvZ, zerg makes 50 banelings and terran got 3-5 tanks and mass marine 1) he wont split 2) he wont split siege tanks (sieged) and all zerg needs is to a-move in order to win, because a-moving with ling and bling is a lot harder than spliting marines and doing siege in good position/on time. Players who dont want to invest time into game will rather play zerg or protoss instead terran, who wouldnt? TvP is just not balanced in late game, I talked to Slayers terrans and I will quote them "protoss 3-3 terran die" and "protoss T_T". What is the problem in TvP? Zealots have too much hp and are too cost effective units which makes them broken in late game along with warpin. One missmicro from T and you will die. Another problem is terran not having T3 units and having to fight with T1 and T2 whole game, Thors and BC's (if we count them as T3) are a joke and the ghost nerf screwed TvP even more than TvZ because you cant snipe zealots anymore which helped A LOT before. If you watch GSL you would know that every terran is allining protoss and those who dont die in hilarious fashion. All of this makes people not wanting to play terran. What us terrans want? and im pretty sure I talk for everyone who plays terran now. We dont want our race easier or boost our marines or marauders, we want viable T3 and if in order to win we need to split marines vs banelings, why does protoss needs to a-move for zealots? Why is there smart AI (or how you call it) that make them auto-surround terran bio? Make protoss have hotkey to use charge every 10sec and if they a-move zealots get stuck one behind another till you micro them just like with ranged units when you a-move the first one to get in range will shoot and those behind will run around, please do same for melee units. We want other races micro to be harder and more rewarding just like terran units are like now, just like blink stalkers or mutas are. My games this season on high GM are: 123 TvP 40.32% 106 TvZ 34.75% 76 TvT 24.91% There is no doubt more and more people keep quiting playing terran and this isnt whine post, this just just a FACT post and stats support what everyone one of us is saying. TLDR: 1) terran requires too much time invested in order to win games, 2) mules are comeback unit only if you sacrificed tech to kill scvs, 3) terran has no T3 units, 4) give other races more micro options and more micro rewarding units. extra: I will always play terran because I have self respect so by your post i can see TvT is imbalanced
how does this mean tvt is imbalanced when those number means the rates of games he played vs each race not the win ratio.
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On March 20 2012 05:17 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:14 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. I assure you I am not trolling. Maybe I'm just stupid, I cannot judge that. But just because he generalizes to what sounds to me standard protoss play doesn't quite means he has clearly no understanding whatsoever. Which I asked of you to eleborate on. I tend to agree with him on point 4 and 5 and I don't see how this is a generalization which apparently means a lack of understanding. Almost every terran in this thread seems to lack that understanding to some degree. Coincidence? So you are literally saying that Protoss does not require micro. You are also saying that Protoss just needs to turtle to a deathball on three bases and then simply a-move (we already established no micro!). You have to be trolling.
No ofcourse you have a to micro a little but if you would just look past his harsh choice of words he means that most protosses turtle on 3 base and then do the standard deathball play. I am a diamond terran player so like mid-level, and I have tons of replays where I have higher eapm, sq, army value, upgrades and still lose the battle. My opponent - the 3 base turtling protoss is basically doing what he says. I'm not claiming I am playing any good, just better then my opponent.
And please stop calling me a troll. Call me an idiot but not a troll.
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Protosses if good, Just ForceField themselves in earlygame while teching harder. Meanwhile their economy is going wild with decent chronoboost.
While they FF, harrass with +1 zealot, they just tech up to something that Z/T have also to tech to counter it.
And true fact: If someone let's Protoss get 4+ bases, they get so strong, it's kinda desperatiton for T/Z. And Protosses also have some of the best cost effective units, wich is fine in early/mid game.
Terrans and Zergs usually tend to All in protosses, or prevent them for getting more bases at all cost.
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On March 20 2012 05:19 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:17 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 05:14 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. I assure you I am not trolling. Maybe I'm just stupid, I cannot judge that. But just because he generalizes to what sounds to me standard protoss play doesn't quite means he has clearly no understanding whatsoever. Which I asked of you to eleborate on. I tend to agree with him on point 4 and 5 and I don't see how this is a generalization which apparently means a lack of understanding. Almost every terran in this thread seems to lack that understanding to some degree. Coincidence? So you are literally saying that Protoss does not require micro. You are also saying that Protoss just needs to turtle to a deathball on three bases and then simply a-move (we already established no micro!). You have to be trolling. How is he trolling, and how are either of those statements untrue?
You can't a move anything. You have to individually bring Zealots to the front otherwise they are stuck behind stalkers. You have to do forcefields, guardian shields, storms, feedbacks, position high templars right to feedback or dodge ghosts. You have to individually micro Stalkers as well as Colossus to keep the Colossus alive and maximize their damage output.
This is just a tiny little example of your deathball theory about a-moving.
Going up to three bases in a defensive manner is common because Protoss is extremely vulnerable in the transition period into HT tech or Robo tech.
I am not actually arguing with someone who says Protoss does not require any micro. That statement alone is proof enough of the fact that nothing valuable can come out of a dialogue with them.
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On March 20 2012 05:16 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:07 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 04:21 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 04:17 Kakaru2 wrote:On March 20 2012 04:11 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 04:09 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 03:41 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 01:59 Big J wrote:On March 20 2012 01:33 Blasterion wrote:On March 20 2012 01:27 Big J wrote:
[quote]
yup and absolutly necessary in SC2, but not generally in RTS, like the whole defenders advantage concept is not generally needed to make a good RTS But that's exactly why Sc2 is a deathball game, nobody wants to make small to medium scale aggressions because of a lack of defender's advantage, If you lose your small aggression his now bigger army can run you over, So you have players sitting on their units until 200/200 for this so called epic battle. Which is just terrible game design. Protoss defies that defender's advantage, always reinforces first. and can chrono boost their reinforcement. I think the problem is pretty clear. I disagree. In my opinion the defenders advantage is too big. But that's not because of any crazy defenders mechanics, but because the economy is too big in SC2. You will nearly always attack with 20 less supply than your opponent defends with, because army creation is too fast. So the only way to get aggressive is to sacrifice economy for army most of the time, which leaves the game in an awkward situation, in which you either balance the game around "semi-allins" being an efficient strategy, and/or turteling being an efficient strategy, but never "just walking out and attacking" being efficient - due to the amount of units produced in the time it takes you to walk across. I think this thread describes the problem the best: too much money in the game leads to too little time in which an active army is actually useful, therefore activness is often not rewarding which leads to one big army > several smaller armies and replacing > keeping alive. You realize this is exactly one of the massive problems with Terran.... The fact that Protoss is an EXCEPTION to that. Protoss can actually have more supply than you while attacking, even after you repel them. It's the reason why you need to win 6 fights in a row to beat down a Protoss but they usually only need to win 1 fight before stream rolling all the way to your natural. Protoss completely ignore map size and distance. Terran is the race hindered most by reinforcement distance, meaning that if we all in, it usually has to include SCVs, or it needs to be a completely unscouted push that the enemy is simply unprepared for. That's why every Protoss unit that comes from a warpgate is costinefficient compared to their Terran and Zerg "low Tier counterparts" and thereby Protoss has to have a more expensive army than the opponent to attack. All those things are completly fine, due to the costinefficiency of Protoss WG units, but where I do agree is that it becomes complicated when the question is not cost- but supplyefficiency, like in the scenarios in which both players hit a max and afterwards can reinforce from a bank, so costs don't matter as much, but production facilities do. In that scenarios Terran needs supplyefficient units to deal with the faster opponents supplyefficient reinforcements. In TvZ this is fine imo (a Terran usually does not die to lings/roaches which are easy to reinforce in the lategame due to mechanic supplyefficient units), in TvP it forces Terran to win the maxed engagement very efficiently. So the question is, is this consistently possible (~50% of the time)? With the current Terran aggressive TvP styles which don't build up many supplyefficient units but meanwhile focus on getting ahead/winning in the midgame by doing damage, I'd say it is not. With other styles, it might be. The question with those is, if they can achieve the same consistently strong overall winrates, or if they will drop below 50% and therefore have to be considered instable "cheese" strategies. No, they arent. You're entire post is based off a baseless assumption. And which is that? That warpgate is a broken mechanic? I have news for you, it is. Warpgate should be removed or nerfed, as in producing units from gateway is more time efficient. That together with buffing Protoss gateway units to compensate will lead to a much more better game. That Toss gateway units are somehow balanced to be weaker to compensate for the warpgate mechanic. Show me something concrete to prove that. I remember the OP of the Defender's Advantage post was claiming that and it was quickly determined that Blizzard had never said they balanced WP units that way ever. Just go to any unit tester and do even amounts of ressource battles; roaches and lings win, as well as Marine/Marauder. Whenever a Protoss goes for a bust, he is cutting most lategame tech, upgrades and probes for it, chronoboosting his warp gates and has worked for a special unit setup (often sentryheavy for the FFs; or specific immortal counts) to begin with. All those busts are timed to hit in a phase in which gateways finish to create "ressource banked" timings and usually hit just when standard Terran has invested into tech (usually medivacs, upgrades or ghosts when we talk about 2base timings; stim and shields when we talk about one base timings) but can't quite profit from it yet, so protoss actually just has more stuff on the battlefield. I'd sympathise with you a little bit if those upgrades and tech weren't mandatory for Terran users in order for bio to stand a chance against gateway units. Without, stim/cc/concussive/medivacs, you can't leave your ramp as Terran.
na, there are builds that don't need those to walk out, like the 1rax expand into 4-5rax pure marine pressure MarineKing sometimes uses. But they don't transition into the strong midgame MMM/stim/shield play as well as the usual 3rax + stim follow up.
Of course those upgrades become mandatory if you don't want to stay on superlow T1 marines al game (because they can be countered), but want to transition into T2+ MMM, just like a Protoss has to get charge/blink/robo/colossus if he doesn't want to go for a bust and a zerg has to get all the speed upgrades and lair/hive tech units as well.
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EPT
