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On March 29 2012 08:19 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 08:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 29 2012 08:04 Bluerain wrote:
the game can and should only be balanced for the top players. if we balance for say GM then the masters will complain, if u balance to masters, then diamond will complain, see the pattern? whats next? balancing for 2v2, 3v3, ffa, and sub master leagues? sadly i think blizz said that the void ray speed was a balance for team games meh.
the only reason ppl are even considering the complaints of these european "pros" who are complaining about terran being weak is that right now the foreign scene isnt that far behind the korean scene. but thats gonna change once the BW players switch over. b4, when the foreign BW players were on such a lower level than the koreans, would anyone even take their balance complaints seriously?
honestly, protoss looks overpowered right now but to use "terrans disappearing from ladder" as evidence is laughable. I don't see what you, Nemesis, Plansix, -.- etc are doing in this thread. You're obviously not reading it. You're not contributing to it. All you do is pick fight on balance, which wasn't discussed until Plansix and -.- refused to shut up about it. If you don't want balance whine in this thread, stop talking about balance. This thread was fine before you guys came in and took a great big shit in the middle of it. Can we now go back to actually looking at the ladder populations? Sorry, lets re-examine the ladder populations, I mean looking at them for 100 pages worth of posts will definitely change them, or we can discuss our opinions on WHY this is the case, and how or how not we can change them. The question this thread is, why is this the case if I recall right, why? Obviously something to do with difficulty, but then why again? it's not as fun? ok so why? these are questions being answered, but if you want to analyze data for 10 days, be my guest it's not changing any time soon. Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 08:15 Apollo147 wrote:
Umm wtf does BW have to do with SC2?
Secondly I think the disparity in the TvP late games stims from the fact Terrans(myself included) stick to tier 1 units, marines/maradures, with a couple of tier 2 units sprinkled in the mid game. Terrans don't have a t3 unit that works well with bio aka thor/bc. On the other hand Protoss have both temps and Colossus which work REALLY well in the mid to late game. Both of which force terran into a counter that is weak against Protoss' overall comp. What I'm trying to say I guess is Protoss dictates which units Terran HAS to build. A fine line that is difficult to walk as a Terran considering getting the comp wrong in even one engagement means you lose. Plus with MMM you have to keep Protoss low on tech units even if that means sacrificing your own units to do so because even with a perfect comp 200 to 200 I believe Protoss always comes out on top.
So I would love to see other strategies such as mech or sky terran become more viable in the TvP matchup through unit change or maybe in HotS with new units. To force the Protoss to be more adaptive instead of the Terran.
Another thing that bugs me about the match-up is when I lose in a TvT or a TvZ I usually know why I lost, but against Protoss a lot of the time it feels like I couldn't have done anything better and yet my army still gets crushed.
Anyways I know I ramble on, but that's I feel from a Terran perspective.
P.S. I feel in my own games and I've seen watching pro games that most Terrans have to win or take a huge lead before or in the mid game if they want to take the win. Maybe I'm wrong. What does anything old tell us about its next evolution, nothing in your opinion obviously... Let's just go back to making cars steer with a lever instead of a wheel : ) They compare, so I compare them. Did you even play BW?
You're trying to take the high road (by calling data analysis uncool?!), but remember, we can read your posts on the very same page. You're not trying to answer the question why terrans are disappearing, you're trying to goad people to say that Terran is UP, so you can berate them about it. You are arguing that the game should be balanced at the pro level. These things have very little to do with this thread.
The question is, why are people switching to Z? We are now getting reports that some terrans switched and the things they enjoy is the forgiving nature of engagements, and better feeling about the late game. This increases our knowledge about the issue.
I don't think anyone, unless they are obstinately trying to argue their point or just thoughtless, would like SC2 to be dominated by Z, or even by P and Z. If there are 3 races, the gameplay is much more varied and fun. Imagine grinding out nothing but PvP and PvZ all day... Not a nice prospect, is it? And considering the reduction in the overall ladder population, a lot of terrans might be quitting the game altogether. (Although I cannot make the figures work out to prove it.)
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On March 29 2012 08:17 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 08:04 Bluerain wrote:
the game can and should only be balanced for the top players. if we balance for say GM then the masters will complain, if u balance to masters, then diamond will complain, see the pattern? whats next? balancing for 2v2, 3v3, ffa, and sub master leagues? sadly i think blizz said that the void ray speed was a balance for team games meh.
the only reason ppl are even considering the complaints of these european "pros" who are complaining about terran being weak is that right now the foreign scene isnt that far behind the korean scene. but thats gonna change once the BW players switch over. b4, when the foreign BW players were on such a lower level than the koreans, would anyone even take their balance complaints seriously?
honestly, protoss looks overpowered right now but to use "terrans disappearing from ladder" as evidence is laughable. I don't see what you, Nemesis, Plansix, -.- etc are doing in this thread. You're obviously not reading it. You're not contributing to it. All you do is pick fight on balance, which wasn't discussed until Plansix and -.- refused to shut up about it. If you don't want balance whine in this thread, stop talking about balance. This thread was fine before you guys came in and took a great big shit in the middle of it. Can we now go back to actually looking at the ladder populations?
First of all, I have not posted about balance. We are talking about practice and review replays in response to this post:
On March 29 2012 05:10 KDrake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 05:08 -_- wrote:On March 29 2012 05:06 KDrake wrote:On March 29 2012 04:56 -_- wrote:
I think Terran players are using "I don't have MKP micro so I can't win" as an easy excuse. Replays would show if I'm right. When it comes down to a big engagement that is why Terrans lose because there's way, way too much to do at once for all but the tip top percentage of the player base to handle, as has been described by others in this thread. Instead of describing it, how about they post their replays of it? I'm honestly not sure. I'd post my own but I don't play macro games against Protoss anymore because I got tired of working three times as hard as my opponent and still getting rolled in the late game, so it's hyper early aggression for me and, I suspect, many others.
This has nothing to do with ladder populations at all. We only responded that reviewing replays is important. But this is how this thread goes. Everyone STARTS with ladder populations and then one person posts "I don't play terran anymore because of the late game" and then it goes the route of balance and its to hard to micro against protoss and that is why everyone is leaving. Then when the protoss players come out as say that is BS, then we go back to "oh we aren't talking about balance, its about ladder populations". As I said before, I have no disagreement with you on that topic.
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In Diamond for Season 6; 37% of my games are versus Terran, where as versus Zerg is at 33 and Protoss is at 29.
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On March 29 2012 08:36 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
In Diamond for Season 6; 37% of my games are versus Terran, where as versus Zerg is at 33 and Protoss is at 29.
How many games have you played? And are they distributed over the entire season or are there times when you've played more?
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On March 29 2012 08:28 Apollo147 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 08:19 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
What does anything old tell us about its next evolution, nothing in your opinion obviously... Let's just go back to making cars steer with a lever instead of a wheel : ) They compare, so I compare them. Did you even play BW? Nice over generalization. Yes I played some BW, but had dial-up so online gaming kind of sucked  I think it can be argued that BW and SC2 are to different to be compared and from what I remember of BW they are. Plus this is a thread about SC2 balance not how BW was balanced or not balanced so that's how SC2 should be too.
Not to mention, by his logic Terran should still be owning it up with 60+% TvP using 1-1-1. Obviously the game should not have been patched, Protoss players should have just waited for someone to figure out the 1-1-1. DONT YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BW??
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On March 29 2012 08:28 Apollo147 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 08:19 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
What does anything old tell us about its next evolution, nothing in your opinion obviously... Let's just go back to making cars steer with a lever instead of a wheel : ) They compare, so I compare them. Did you even play BW? Nice over generalization. Yes I played some BW, but had dial-up so online gaming kind of sucked I think it can be argued that BW and SC2 are to different to be compared and from what I remember of BW they are. Plus this is a thread about SC2 balance not how BW was balanced or not balanced so that's how SC2 should be too.
-.- So lets do to BW, like we did to Battlenet 1, then turn SC2 balance into Bnet 0.2, or we could learn from the past? Maybe, maybe not I like your logic though, just cry and hope it gets better.
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On March 29 2012 08:38 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 08:36 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
In Diamond for Season 6; 37% of my games are versus Terran, where as versus Zerg is at 33 and Protoss is at 29. How many games have you played? And are they distributed over the entire season or are there times when you've played more?
Yeah this information is completely useless with some more information. I could play 10 games this entire season and say "well 50% of my games this season were vs terran, 10% vs protoss and 40% vs zerg. Where did the protoss go?"
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On March 29 2012 09:00 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 08:38 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 29 2012 08:36 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
In Diamond for Season 6; 37% of my games are versus Terran, where as versus Zerg is at 33 and Protoss is at 29. How many games have you played? And are they distributed over the entire season or are there times when you've played more? Yeah this information is completely useless with some more information. I could play 10 games this entire season and say "well 50% of my games this season were vs terran, 10% vs protoss and 40% vs zerg. Where did the protoss go?"
In all fairness, the only solid stats in this entire thread have been the 27% or so terrans vs the 36% protoss and the 30ish % zergs, which -6 from the expected "balance" ammout isnt even that crazy, if you look at NA stats on balance, TvP is looking fine as hell : P
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On March 29 2012 08:57 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 08:28 Apollo147 wrote:On March 29 2012 08:19 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
What does anything old tell us about its next evolution, nothing in your opinion obviously... Let's just go back to making cars steer with a lever instead of a wheel : ) They compare, so I compare them. Did you even play BW? Nice over generalization. Yes I played some BW, but had dial-up so online gaming kind of sucked I think it can be argued that BW and SC2 are to different to be compared and from what I remember of BW they are. Plus this is a thread about SC2 balance not how BW was balanced or not balanced so that's how SC2 should be too. -.- So lets do to BW, like we did to Battlenet 1, then turn SC2 balance into Bnet 0.2, or we could learn from the past? Maybe, maybe not I like your logic though, just cry and hope it gets better.
What's this past shit? Let me state SC2 is not BW. Maybe you played BW and LOVED the shit out of it and if so by all means go back and continue to play BW. Just don't bring BW into an SC2 thread like it's the end all be all. It's better for SC2 as a whole if it's not compared in ANY way to BW, that just confines it's ability to grow as it's own game.
As for crying I've yet to "cry" about anything. I find late game TvP frustrating, but the last time I checked frustration wasn't crying. By all means keep trolling though, it gives me endless amounts of joy knowing people like you populate the lower I.Q. strata of our great nation.
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On March 29 2012 06:46 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 06:40 KDrake wrote:On March 29 2012 06:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I died a bit inside of laughter reading this.
"So yeah man, I've been playing some golf and learned reaaaaaaalll good how to drive that first ball reaaaaal far, but damnit everytime I hit the fucking thing, and it's not a hole in one and it moves onto a later part of the game I just say fuck it, I'm done for the day gent, then wonder why when we start putting all these people I can drive the ball farther than beat the shit out of me in the putting range... They have imbalanced clubs"
It's one thing to say something like "x factor is why y factor is imbalanced" and a totally other thing to just say I suck at it becasue I don't play it enough vs players who play it all the time. And it doesn't require "top 3 control" to play terran at low masters/mid masters so get it straight.. It's high masters when control becomes prevalent and GM/pro play where you require at minimum to be "ok" thorzains micro, which I might add is definitely not MVP/Gumiho/MMA/MKP caliber by a long shot. I feel like people are ignoring the part where I said I spent a considerable amount of time trying to beat Protoss in macro games before changing my approach. It isn't like I tried to macro once or twice and lost both times so I got mad, it's more like I spent a lot of time reading, getting coaching and playing on the ladder only to get essentially no pay off. Not giving up easily is one thing but there comes a point where you're just repeatedly bashing your head into a brick wall. That's what I feel that late game Protoss is for Terran at my skill level. This isn't to say that I won't eventually give massed bio macro games another go in TvP, just that for now I've had enough of that approach and have decided to try something else. Is that wrong? And it's not like we don't play macro games successfully vs. Z and T... Nope, Terrans who now resort to all in tactics in TvP must just suck balls at macro. The level of reading comprehension in this thread is at an all time low thanks to Nemesis.
As previous posters have said, why don't you post replays of your TvP? It should be obvious that you're more skilled than your opponent but still losing, and your play is better, right?
A macro game does not only utilize macro, by the way. You can have amazing macro but play the matchup wrong (ie: passive). I'd draw attention to a thread I saw awhile ago talking about uneven winrates - players who have solid winrates in one matchup but significantly lower wins in another.
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On March 29 2012 09:14 Apollo147 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 08:57 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On March 29 2012 08:28 Apollo147 wrote:On March 29 2012 08:19 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
What does anything old tell us about its next evolution, nothing in your opinion obviously... Let's just go back to making cars steer with a lever instead of a wheel : ) They compare, so I compare them. Did you even play BW? Nice over generalization. Yes I played some BW, but had dial-up so online gaming kind of sucked I think it can be argued that BW and SC2 are to different to be compared and from what I remember of BW they are. Plus this is a thread about SC2 balance not how BW was balanced or not balanced so that's how SC2 should be too. -.- So lets do to BW, like we did to Battlenet 1, then turn SC2 balance into Bnet 0.2, or we could learn from the past? Maybe, maybe not I like your logic though, just cry and hope it gets better. What's this past shit? Let me state SC2 is not BW. Maybe you played BW and LOVED the shit out of it and if so by all means go back and continue to play BW. Just don't bring BW into an SC2 thread like it's the end all be all. It's better for SC2 as a whole if it's not compared in ANY way to BW, that just confines it's ability to grow as it's own game. As for crying I've yet to "cry" about anything. I find late game TvP frustrating, but the last time I checked frustration wasn't crying. By all means keep trolling though, it gives me endless amounts of joy knowing people like you populate the lower I.Q. strata of our great nation.
Um with regards to BW comparisons, SC2 is built on the foundation that is SC:BW. I mean why do you think its called starcraft in the first place and not command craft or something along those lines? Because BW is a proven formulae in so many different aspects that many people (mostly who have experienced both games) want Starcraft 2 to take utilise what made BW great while implementing all the other positive things in SC2. This however does not mean that SC2 should be BW. I cant stress enough times how many people fail to understand this simple concept. If people went out and said stop comparing Warcraft 3 to SC, then that would make sense since they are completely different games.
Man Id give up hellions/thors for vultures and goliaths no problem..
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On March 29 2012 09:29 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 09:14 Apollo147 wrote:On March 29 2012 08:57 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On March 29 2012 08:28 Apollo147 wrote:On March 29 2012 08:19 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
What does anything old tell us about its next evolution, nothing in your opinion obviously... Let's just go back to making cars steer with a lever instead of a wheel : ) They compare, so I compare them. Did you even play BW? Nice over generalization. Yes I played some BW, but had dial-up so online gaming kind of sucked I think it can be argued that BW and SC2 are to different to be compared and from what I remember of BW they are. Plus this is a thread about SC2 balance not how BW was balanced or not balanced so that's how SC2 should be too. -.- So lets do to BW, like we did to Battlenet 1, then turn SC2 balance into Bnet 0.2, or we could learn from the past? Maybe, maybe not I like your logic though, just cry and hope it gets better. What's this past shit? Let me state SC2 is not BW. Maybe you played BW and LOVED the shit out of it and if so by all means go back and continue to play BW. Just don't bring BW into an SC2 thread like it's the end all be all. It's better for SC2 as a whole if it's not compared in ANY way to BW, that just confines it's ability to grow as it's own game. As for crying I've yet to "cry" about anything. I find late game TvP frustrating, but the last time I checked frustration wasn't crying. By all means keep trolling though, it gives me endless amounts of joy knowing people like you populate the lower I.Q. strata of our great nation. Um with regards to BW comparisons, SC2 is built on the foundation that is SC:BW. I mean why do you think its called starcraft in the first place and not command craft or something along those lines? Because BW is a proven formulae in so many different aspects that many people (mostly who have experienced both games) want Starcraft 2 to take utilise what made BW great while implementing all the other positive things in SC2. This however does not mean that SC2 should be BW. I cant stress enough times how many people fail to understand this simple concept. If people went out and said stop comparing Warcraft 3 to SC, then that would make sense since they are completely different games. Man Id give up hellions/thors for vultures and goliaths no problem..
Just think in HotS Terrans are getting a crappy version of the goliath that has it's art model ripped right off from MechWarrior. To be fair we don't know if it's going to be crap yet, but the demo made it look crappy.
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Always the same "i dont want sc2 --> bw" and yet, you want to change everything so sc2 would be as much like bw was.
Also that was hilarious "This however does not mean that SC2 should be BW. I cant stress enough times how many people fail to understand this simple concept." and at the end of the post he writes "Man Id give up hellions/thors for vultures and goliaths no problem.."
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Sorry guys! I've been busy moving, if anyone feels a particular post should be on the front page send me a PM and let me know. As long as it isn't "lol terran are stupid whiners" or "protoss op"
Something constructive that you feel like people will benefit from.
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On March 29 2012 09:42 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
Always the same "i dont want sc2 --> bw" and yet, you want to change everything so sc2 would be as much like bw was.
Also that was hilarious "This however does not mean that SC2 should be BW. I cant stress enough times how many people fail to understand this simple concept." and at the end of the post he writes "Man Id give up hellions/thors for vultures and goliaths no problem.."
'I prefer BW to SC2' is not the same as 'SC2 should be BW'.
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Updating statistics: from the 216 games I played this season (high Master/GM MMR on Europe, currently 1200 points Master), I played:
99 TvP
76 TvZ
41 TvT
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How would you do sc2 more like bw without actually turning sc2 into bw?
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On March 29 2012 09:58 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
How would you do sc2 more like bw without actually turning sc2 into bw?
That's a good question, one hard to answer though.
The mechanics in brood war were far more demanding than in sc2.
They're completely different games.
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On March 29 2012 09:57 TheDwf wrote:
Updating statistics: from the 216 games I played this season (high Master/GM MMR on Europe, currently 1200 points Master), I played:
99 TvP
76 TvZ
41 TvT
I'm seeing the same thing on SEA, plat level.
If I play 20 games at least 10 will be PvP, 6 PvZ and 4 PvT.
Which sucks cause who enjoys PvP?
Tempting to switch just so i don't have to play PvP any more
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On March 29 2012 04:22 -_- wrote:
I've received enough responses that I can safely ignore Ghanburighan's claim that the issue I discussed was one which nobody was talking about or interested in.
Unfortunately, I think they show quite a bit of ignorance about what decisions a Protoss player has to make, and what micro a Protoss player has to execute during a battle. But, I'm a Protoss player, so perhaps I'm ignorant of exactly how difficult it is for a Terran?
So, I'll issue a challenge. If you're a low masters player or below, post your last 5 losses to Protoss in a replay pack. I, and other forum goers will go over them. Instead of describing how easy it for Protoss at lower levels, we'll all be able to see with our own eyes what both players did during the battle and what led up to it.
I think this guy is right, this thread needs replays, preferably master lvl TvP. To enhance the discussion further. Right now everybody is discussing the pro lvl TvP games, but it would be good for this thread to see alot of Master lvl TvP's that show case some of the problems in the MU and then we can analyze.
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EPT
