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On March 29 2012 05:06 KDrake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 04:56 -_- wrote:
I think Terran players are using "I don't have MKP micro so I can't win" as an easy excuse. Replays would show if I'm right. When it comes down to a big engagement that is why Terrans lose because there's way, way too much to do at once for all but the tip top percentage of the player base to handle, as has been described by others in this thread.
Instead of describing it, how about they post their replays of it?
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On March 29 2012 05:08 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 05:06 KDrake wrote:On March 29 2012 04:56 -_- wrote:
I think Terran players are using "I don't have MKP micro so I can't win" as an easy excuse. Replays would show if I'm right. When it comes down to a big engagement that is why Terrans lose because there's way, way too much to do at once for all but the tip top percentage of the player base to handle, as has been described by others in this thread. Instead of describing it, how about they post their replays of it?
I'm honestly not sure. I'd post my own but I don't play macro games against Protoss anymore because I got tired of working three times as hard as my opponent and still getting rolled in the late game, so it's hyper early aggression for me and, I suspect, many others.
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On March 29 2012 05:10 KDrake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 05:08 -_- wrote:On March 29 2012 05:06 KDrake wrote:On March 29 2012 04:56 -_- wrote:
I think Terran players are using "I don't have MKP micro so I can't win" as an easy excuse. Replays would show if I'm right. When it comes down to a big engagement that is why Terrans lose because there's way, way too much to do at once for all but the tip top percentage of the player base to handle, as has been described by others in this thread. Instead of describing it, how about they post their replays of it? I'm honestly not sure. I'd post my own but I don't play macro games against Protoss anymore because I got tired of working three times as hard as my opponent and still getting rolled in the late game, so it's hyper early aggression for me and, I suspect, many others.
lol pretty much. I'm likely going to grind out a bunch of ladder soon as the new season is coming, so maybe I'll take up his challenge and post some replays. I'll even try to 1 rax expo instead of just going cloak banshee every game. It shouldn't take very long to rack up 5 loses in TvP.
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If you don't play macro games, and thus don't practice them, why are you surprised that someone who does manages to beat you?
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On March 29 2012 05:25 Dfgj wrote:
If you don't play macro games, and thus don't practice them, why are you surprised that someone who does manages to beat you?
lol
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I recently switched to zerg and I'm having much more fun than when I was terran. I'm not at a disadvantage if I don't try to end the game at the 11 minute mark.
My entire army won't die from a storm or a ling surround. Fights are much more forgiving if I make a mistake. I can enjoy the game, compared to sacrificing 40 workers for a bigger army and still be in the fight of my life vs a toss late game ball.
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On March 29 2012 05:10 KDrake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 05:08 -_- wrote:On March 29 2012 05:06 KDrake wrote:On March 29 2012 04:56 -_- wrote:
I think Terran players are using "I don't have MKP micro so I can't win" as an easy excuse. Replays would show if I'm right. When it comes down to a big engagement that is why Terrans lose because there's way, way too much to do at once for all but the tip top percentage of the player base to handle, as has been described by others in this thread. Instead of describing it, how about they post their replays of it? I'm honestly not sure. I'd post my own but I don't play macro games against Protoss anymore because I got tired of working three times as hard as my opponent and still getting rolled in the late game, so it's hyper early aggression for me and, I suspect, many others.
Do you not want to review your replays to see if there are any ways you could improve your TvP? Or do you just assume you lost the game because protoss was able to max their army? I understand that folks are having trouble with the match up, but If you are working 5 times as hard as your opponent, maybe there are ways you could be more efficient if your actions? A lot of times players think they know when they lost a game, but they may not be correct. I normally have my zerg buddy review my PvZ when I am having a rough time against a specific build.
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These concerns sound eerily similar to zerg concerns pre-broodlord/infestor. The difference is that early game terran has worked for so much longer than early game zerg pushes did. And early game/macro MMM still works at the pro level - so don't expect help there.
Perhaps instead, the terrans should be looking for the masters level non-pros who make guides on these forums involving tech units. I can't offer an opinion on which ones to look at - but I know that Yoshi's TvP Pure Air thread gets a lot of attention for a reason, and I've seen some people posting that Lyyna's TvP thread is working decently (he is also a masters level player who admits to playing "slowly").
I know people are going to hate on this post, but consider the situation for yourself for a moment. The pros are doing builds which are not working for you. Clearly, this means you either need to play better or use a build with a lower skill ceiling. If you refuse to do the former (which is weird, but ok), then clearly you'll need to do the latter. The pros aren't going to help you there, so find someone else or figure something else out yourself.
It's perfectly legitimate for me to say "I don't have the micro for blink stalkers". What becomes illegitimate, then is my playing blink stalkers every game and then complaining that protoss is broken.
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On March 29 2012 05:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 05:10 KDrake wrote:On March 29 2012 05:08 -_- wrote:On March 29 2012 05:06 KDrake wrote:On March 29 2012 04:56 -_- wrote:
I think Terran players are using "I don't have MKP micro so I can't win" as an easy excuse. Replays would show if I'm right. When it comes down to a big engagement that is why Terrans lose because there's way, way too much to do at once for all but the tip top percentage of the player base to handle, as has been described by others in this thread. Instead of describing it, how about they post their replays of it? I'm honestly not sure. I'd post my own but I don't play macro games against Protoss anymore because I got tired of working three times as hard as my opponent and still getting rolled in the late game, so it's hyper early aggression for me and, I suspect, many others. Do you not want to review your replays to see if there are any ways you could improve your TvP? Or do you just assume you lost the game because protoss was able to max their army? I understand that folks are having trouble with the match up, but If you are working 5 times as hard as your opponent, maybe there are ways you could be more efficient if your actions? A lot of times players think they know when they lost a game, but they may not be correct. I normally have my zerg buddy review my PvZ when I am having a rough time against a specific build.
Of course there is always something to improve in everyone's game. But that doesn't change the fact that in a max TvP engagement, what the protoss player has to do is much easier. I'm not saying its super ez fun times to play PvT, but the actual big engagement is just easier for protoss. Upgrades, positioning, army value being equal, terran will almost always lose because the required micro is just much more challenging.
Emping, stim, microing vikings, spliting and stutter stepping bio, keeping track of stray HTs is just alot harder then what protoss has to do. Furthermore, messing up any of these aspects is much more damaging for terran then protoss (less forgiving).
For example if you don't feedback some of the ghosts that are hanging out at the back, and they get off a few emps after battle is engaged, typically it doesnt matter because you already lost most of your shields and used most of your storms.
If you fail at splitting your bio well OR at getting off emps, you just get totally owned, whereas if all your sentries get empd, doesnt really hurt you that bad. If all your HTs get empd, sure that hurts, but archons and collosus are still able to hold their own pretty well.
Of course there are other aspects of the game which are more or less difficult for each race, but to deny the big end of game battle has a gaint effect on the entirety of the game is just ridiculous.
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On March 29 2012 05:25 Dfgj wrote:
If you don't play macro games, and thus don't practice them, why are you surprised that someone who does manages to beat you?
Well, I only just decided to stop attempting to play macro games against Protoss a bit after this season started (maybe a week in?). Previously I tried for macro games all the time in every match up and after playing literally two hundred games total last season (roughly 1/3rd of which are against Protoss, plus games from previous seasons) it just led to me getting my face smashed in, even after getting coaching from a Masters player. I still play macro games against both Zerg and other Terrans, but I decided to learn some nasty one or two base pushes specifically to not allow Protoss to reach the point where they have a big advantage.
I'm of the opinion that people around my skill level (low diamond, so that includes people lower and probably many that are higher also) don't have the skill to use the go-to standard builds and strategies that the pros use against Protoss. It isn't the fault of the build or the Terran race, it's just that the skill requirement to make such things work is out of the majority of people's reach. Treehead makes a similar point just above this post.
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I think maybe Terrans just need to be more aggressive.
Up till around maybe mid diamond, many games I see consist of each player maybe poking a tiny bit, but mostly taking two or three (or in some cases more) bases, and maxing out at around the 15 minute mark (faster for higher ranks). This entire macro for a big battle style/design by Blizzard has been discussed in detail, and IT DOES NOT WORK FOR TERRAN.
Terran can build a maxxed out army slightly faster than Toss generally. However, this is counterbalanced by the higher "supply efficiency" of Toss units. So, they have a relative parity in army cost/ strength, whatever.
But, Terran's passivity allows Toss to tech, upgrade and build as he pleases. This results in Toss having splash damage and all sorts of scary things which Terran bio/ whatever melts against. While Terran has macro mechanics they can take advantage of to outmacro Toss, this focus also allows Toss to utilize its own advantage in better scaling tech and research.
Think of it as Terran going mass low tier, while Toss techs to higher tier. In the end, tech beats units.
So Terrans, go out and kill shit. Make the Toss spend gas on army rather than tech, and keep his army smaller. Remember, even if you trade 3 marines for a zealot, it is quite possibly worth it (you have reactors). Sure, lower level Terrans will suicide themselves, but they will learn from experience when and when not to attack. You don't need MKP micro, you just need better decision making.
I'm still mid-low masters Toss. The higher masters Terrans I play attack me a lot-- drops, small engagements, whatever. They essentially dictate the flow of the game. Terrans on the other end of my MMR range (low masters, diamond) have a much greater tendency to sit on their asses and macro up a big army, which will usually melt to mine the moment they engage, unless they hit from a good angle.
Now, people talk about "attacking from a good angle". I agree its important. However, against an opponent of similar caliber, getting that good angle is going to be hard-- more often than not, you'll have to attack from an "okay angle", or nothing will happen and you'll lose the initiative. If you depend so much on a "good angle" as T in TvP for your maxxed out bio, then it means you're already doing it wrong.
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If you do not have at least a few hundred games on ladder as terran please do not post about what is viable for terran or what builds terran should be doing.
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On March 29 2012 05:25 Dfgj wrote:
If you don't play macro games, and thus don't practice them, why are you surprised that someone who does manages to beat you?
Watch out guys, we got an intellectual badass over here...
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On March 29 2012 06:02 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 05:25 Dfgj wrote:
If you don't play macro games, and thus don't practice them, why are you surprised that someone who does manages to beat you? Watch out guys, we got an intellectual badass over here...
Occam's razor is pretty bad ass and not an unreasonable response to "I lose all macro games, so I don't play macro games." There are good arguments in this thread, but this is not one of them.
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On March 29 2012 05:28 boppel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 05:25 Dfgj wrote:
If you don't play macro games, and thus don't practice them, why are you surprised that someone who does manages to beat you? lol
I died a bit inside of laughter reading this.
"So yeah man, I've been playing some golf and learned reaaaaaaalll good how to drive that first ball reaaaaal far, but damnit everytime I hit the fucking thing, and it's not a hole in one and it moves onto a later part of the game I just say fuck it, I'm done for the day gent, then wonder why when we start putting all these people I can drive the ball farther than beat the shit out of me in the putting range... They have imbalanced clubs"
It's one thing to say something like "x factor is why y factor is imbalanced" and a totally other thing to just say I suck at it becasue I don't play it enough vs players who play it all the time. And it doesn't require "top 3 control" to play terran at low masters/mid masters so get it straight.. It's high masters when control becomes prevalent and GM/pro play where you require at minimum to be "ok" thorzains micro, which I might add is definitely not MVP/Gumiho/MMA/MKP caliber by a long shot.
So perhaps, instead of coming on here guys, you can try and work out a solution, because believe me it's there I'm rather high masters yet some players seem to sit on 3 bases sometimes, not aggress and role me lategame and I prefer to think of myself as a rather "good" in retrospect to not going anywhere professionally player, and yet that happens. I bet you can have that happen too.
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On March 29 2012 06:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I died a bit inside of laughter reading this.
"So yeah man, I've been playing some golf and learned reaaaaaaalll good how to drive that first ball reaaaaal far, but damnit everytime I hit the fucking thing, and it's not a hole in one and it moves onto a later part of the game I just say fuck it, I'm done for the day gent, then wonder why when we start putting all these people I can drive the ball farther than beat the shit out of me in the putting range... They have imbalanced clubs"
It's one thing to say something like "x factor is why y factor is imbalanced" and a totally other thing to just say I suck at it becasue I don't play it enough vs players who play it all the time. And it doesn't require "top 3 control" to play terran at low masters/mid masters so get it straight.. It's high masters when control becomes prevalent and GM/pro play where you require at minimum to be "ok" thorzains micro, which I might add is definitely not MVP/Gumiho/MMA/MKP caliber by a long shot.
I feel like people are ignoring the part where I said I spent a considerable amount of time trying to beat Protoss in macro games before changing my approach. It isn't like I tried to macro once or twice and lost both times so I got mad, it's more like I spent a lot of time reading, getting coaching and playing on the ladder only to get essentially no pay off. Not giving up easily is one thing but there comes a point where you're just repeatedly bashing your head into a brick wall. That's what I feel that late game Protoss is for Terran at my skill level.
This isn't to say that I won't eventually give massed bio macro games another go in TvP, just that for now I've had enough of that approach and have decided to try something else. Is that wrong?
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On March 29 2012 06:40 KDrake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 06:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I died a bit inside of laughter reading this.
"So yeah man, I've been playing some golf and learned reaaaaaaalll good how to drive that first ball reaaaaal far, but damnit everytime I hit the fucking thing, and it's not a hole in one and it moves onto a later part of the game I just say fuck it, I'm done for the day gent, then wonder why when we start putting all these people I can drive the ball farther than beat the shit out of me in the putting range... They have imbalanced clubs"
It's one thing to say something like "x factor is why y factor is imbalanced" and a totally other thing to just say I suck at it becasue I don't play it enough vs players who play it all the time. And it doesn't require "top 3 control" to play terran at low masters/mid masters so get it straight.. It's high masters when control becomes prevalent and GM/pro play where you require at minimum to be "ok" thorzains micro, which I might add is definitely not MVP/Gumiho/MMA/MKP caliber by a long shot. I feel like people are ignoring the part where I said I spent a considerable amount of time trying to beat Protoss in macro games before changing my approach. It isn't like I tried to macro once or twice and lost both times so I got mad, it's more like I spent a lot of time reading, getting coaching and playing on the ladder only to get essentially no pay off. Not giving up easily is one thing but there comes a point where you're just repeatedly bashing your head into a brick wall. That's what I feel that late game Protoss is for Terran at my skill level. This isn't to say that I won't eventually give massed bio macro games another go in TvP, just that for now I've had enough of that approach and have decided to try something else. Is that wrong?
And it's not like we don't play macro games successfully vs. Z and T... Nope, Terrans who now resort to all in tactics in TvP must just suck balls at macro. The level of reading comprehension in this thread is at an all time low thanks to Nemesis.
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On March 29 2012 06:46 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 06:40 KDrake wrote:On March 29 2012 06:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I died a bit inside of laughter reading this.
"So yeah man, I've been playing some golf and learned reaaaaaaalll good how to drive that first ball reaaaaal far, but damnit everytime I hit the fucking thing, and it's not a hole in one and it moves onto a later part of the game I just say fuck it, I'm done for the day gent, then wonder why when we start putting all these people I can drive the ball farther than beat the shit out of me in the putting range... They have imbalanced clubs"
It's one thing to say something like "x factor is why y factor is imbalanced" and a totally other thing to just say I suck at it becasue I don't play it enough vs players who play it all the time. And it doesn't require "top 3 control" to play terran at low masters/mid masters so get it straight.. It's high masters when control becomes prevalent and GM/pro play where you require at minimum to be "ok" thorzains micro, which I might add is definitely not MVP/Gumiho/MMA/MKP caliber by a long shot. I feel like people are ignoring the part where I said I spent a considerable amount of time trying to beat Protoss in macro games before changing my approach. It isn't like I tried to macro once or twice and lost both times so I got mad, it's more like I spent a lot of time reading, getting coaching and playing on the ladder only to get essentially no pay off. Not giving up easily is one thing but there comes a point where you're just repeatedly bashing your head into a brick wall. That's what I feel that late game Protoss is for Terran at my skill level. This isn't to say that I won't eventually give massed bio macro games another go in TvP, just that for now I've had enough of that approach and have decided to try something else. Is that wrong? And it's not like we don't play macro games successfully vs. Z and T... Nope, Terrans who now resort to all in tactics in TvP must just suck balls at macro. The level of reading comprehension in this thread is at an all time low thanks to Nemesis.
: P learning to juggle cubes and apples successfully is one thing, to juggle bowling pins is another.. You may practice a different MU, but the key word is "different". Comparing them, and expecting similar results is ridiculous, and this is why there are players who have great MU's and really bad MU's... It doesn't carry over like you are proclaiming, with a facetious attitude.
So, if you wan't to become better, macro more in TvP and play for the lategame  silly. I didn't see MKP having to many troubles at the past 2 MLG's, but remember that's because Protoss is Imbalanced...
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On March 29 2012 07:00 NeMeSiS3 wrote:So, if you wan't to become better, macro more in TvP and play for the lategame silly. I didn't see MKP having to many troubles at the past 2 MLG's, but remember that's because Protoss is Imbalanced...
No, that's because MarineKingPrime is freaking amazing, one of the best Terran players on the face of the planet with absolutely incredibly unit control and macro. He also plays the game full time and is paid to do so. For 99%+ of the player base, late game TvP is too hard to handle with any success.
Protoss isn't imbalanced, they're just at a great advantage in the late game against Terran, save for the very top few players in the world.
I don't understand why you feel the need to be sarcastic, taunt and be confrontational toward people who are attempting to have a discussion and share viewpoints.
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On March 29 2012 07:07 KDrake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 07:00 NeMeSiS3 wrote:So, if you wan't to become better, macro more in TvP and play for the lategame silly. I didn't see MKP having to many troubles at the past 2 MLG's, but remember that's because Protoss is Imbalanced... No, that's because MarineKingPrime is freaking amazing, one of the best Terran players on the face of the planet with absolutely incredibly unit control and macro. He also plays the game full time and is paid to do so. For 99%+ of the player base, late game TvP is too hard to handle with any success. Protoss isn't imbalanced, they're just at a great advantage in the late game against Terran, save for the very top few players in the world. I don't understand why you feel the need to be sarcastic, taunt and be confrontational toward people who are attempting to have a discussion and share viewpoints.
Not to mention, I don't recall MKP playing any late game TvPs. He always seemed to win early or mid game through superior unit control. But admittedly, I didn't catch all his games. If he played any 25+ minute TvPs against a competent opponent I'd definitely be interested.
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EPT
