EPTWhere did all of the terrans go? - Page 139
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
djdnt
Bulgaria10 Posts
| ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
I have specifically quoted your initial comment, to show that you did say that the ability to mass drone (or chrono nexi) gives the other races superior comback potential from worker deaths than Terran has. If you hadn't said this, this would indeed be a strawman (but I also would not have argued against any of those comments to begin with), but fact is that the discussion was always about your statement that Terran has the smallest comback potential and I merely was pointing out that the potential to do something (like mass droning after losing mass workers), does not make it the right decision (which is needed to comeback) in a real game. Cutting me quoting your original statement so that it looks like I was strawmaning you and then accusing me of such is just disgusting. btw, if I were you I would really put that picture away, you are risking a warning. | ||
|
Alick
Bulgaria10 Posts
On March 25 2012 14:29 captainwaffles wrote: I think a major thing thats hindering T in the lategame against toss right now is...simply put how mineral intensive Terrans unit composition, lets do a quick breakdown: Marines: 50 Minerals Marauders: 100 Minerals 25 Gas Medivacs: 100 Minerals 100 Gas Ghosts: 200 Minerals 100 Gas Vikings 150 Minerals 75 Gas There is no real way for T to utilize gas which results in (a lot of the time) where Terran has like 2k+ (sometimes 4k...its absurd) gas that is useless without minerals to spend. I think if Terran could spend minerals and gas more effectively and evenly it would solve a lot of heartache for T. Blizzard has shoehorned TvP to this state, we have to play aggressive and multitask quite a bit and either kill in the early/mid game or get an advantage we ride till the late game. For a long time I absolutely hated this thought it was total bullshit. Now? I don't really care, we fight or we die. I was actually thinking that maybe a solution to the gas build up in late game TvX would be allowing ravens to be built from reactor starports. All the raven upgrades can still be researched at a tech-lab'd startport. Think that would create some really interesting options for terran, and possibly introduce more seeker missiles which are pretty much underused in all match ups. Not sure if this is game-breaking or anything, just wanted to share some theorycrafting. | ||
|
LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On March 25 2012 22:42 Big J wrote: the discussion was always about your statement that Terran has the smallest comback potential and I merely was pointing out that the potential to do something (like mass droning after losing mass workers), does not make it the right decision (which is needed to comeback) in a real game. The discussion was about people being frustrated that MULES allow for comeback potential after worker death, when every race has that. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 25 2012 22:44 Alick wrote: I was actually thinking that maybe a solution to the gas build up in late game TvX would be allowing ravens to be built from reactor starports. All the raven upgrades can still be researched at a tech-lab'd startport. Think that would create some really interesting options for terran, and possibly introduce more seeker missiles which are pretty much underused in all match ups. Not sure if this is game-breaking or anything, just wanted to share some theorycrafting. The raven is a good choice is they are going to buff terran in some way and that is not a bad solution. The main thing that needs to be avoided is increasing terrans 2 base or one base all-in potential. The raven is a nice unit for that, although it is really gas heavy. They could also move ghost back to 150/150 or go crazy and make them 100/200, which would allow terrans to make them without dumping minerals. Once again, if that happened, we might just see a bunch of 2 base all-ins with a higher number of ghost. | ||
|
LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On March 25 2012 22:44 Alick wrote: I was actually thinking that maybe a solution to the gas build up in late game TvX would be allowing ravens to be built from reactor starports. All the raven upgrades can still be researched at a tech-lab'd startport. Think that would create some really interesting options for terran, and possibly introduce more seeker missiles which are pretty much underused in all match ups. Not sure if this is game-breaking or anything, just wanted to share some theorycrafting. That would be pretty cool, maybe OP though. I'd say the biggest thing is that Ravens take a full minute to build... I think a simple decrease in build time would make them more available. Also more easily massable  I don't think a 35 second Raven would be at all game breaking because they take so much longer after that to become useful... out of the gate they have enough for 1 auto turret, which is pretty much 2ish supply worth of health/firepower. I think that could be interesting. | ||
|
NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
6 medivacs, 600 gas 16 vikings, 1200 gas 10 marauder, 250 gas 10 ghost, 1000 gas Thats already over 3000 gas and I might argue that you only have 10 marauders and 10 ghosts. If you have too much gas, its alot more about how you manage your economy instead of actually having no units to spend gas on. Ghosts and a lot of them is very valid and very strong as we've seen this MLG but still no one here gives a shit I guess and writes it off as not valid, yet we saw ThorZaIN absolute crushing MC with only 10 ghosts. If he had 20-25, no single storm or archon would see the light of the day. You can play Terran and only take 1 gas at your expansion, or take 5 instead of 6 on 3 base. It will give you even more of a mineral income or the advantage of having less harvesters and a bigger army, but yet again I might argue: If you lose your army once as Terran and want to build it up again... it does cost a lot of gas. Its just not that you frequently trade high-expensive gas units like Protoss or Zerg would. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 25 2012 22:49 LavaLava wrote: The discussion was about people being frustrated that MULES allow for comeback potential after worker death, when every race has that. well, then I guess we were talking at cross purposes. I was specifically discussing the part that said Terrans have smaller comeback potential. It was absolutly not my intention to defend those people who simply don't get that there is a difference between workercount, economy and setup and think because it's 20-40workers, Terran should lose when in fact they forget that the "normal" situation should be like 40-50 at that time and that they should be on higher tech than they are and therefore the army/tech situation favors Terran. | ||
|
Angel_
United States1617 Posts
On March 25 2012 22:44 Alick wrote: I was actually thinking that maybe a solution to the gas build up in late game TvX would be allowing ravens to be built from reactor starports. All the raven upgrades can still be researched at a tech-lab'd startport. Think that would create some really interesting options for terran, and possibly introduce more seeker missiles which are pretty much underused in all match ups. Not sure if this is game-breaking or anything, just wanted to share some theorycrafting. The problem I have with that is that it means that the terran get to play more micro games between Templar and Ravens along with everything else, and the raven missile fire range is short as shit. Frankly, Seeker Missile would be strong as fuck against a clump of zealot warp-ins, but it's so costly and the raven is so fucking slow and the range to fire is so short that you're basically guarenteed that you're going to lose your raven if a HT is out. It SORT of gives the toss a little more to have to pay attention to though, So...I'm not really against it? I just don't know how it would work out. I still think the Colossus just needs to go. The biggest issue to me is that the toss can throw their hands up and yell "i'm not gonna play your micro war game" and just a-move and throw storms and actually come out ahead. I'm not saying all toss do, I'm not saying toss CAN'T micro. I'm saying that simply refusing to micro and just blindly throwing storms on the terran is AS effective if not better than actually microing your heart out. And I blame the colossus because it's a garbage 1a sledgehammer unit. | ||
|
Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On March 25 2012 22:58 Type|NarutO wrote: I actually cannot agree with the statement that Terran has lots of Gas in the lategame. Whenever you see gas banked its mostly in progames because pros rarely lose tons of medivacs or vikings, but its not about Terran being not gas-intensive. Ofcourse, compared to Protoss and Zerg we might need less gas, but lets be honest here. 6 medivacs, 600 gas 16 vikings, 1200 gas 10 marauder, 250 gas 10 ghost, 1000 gas Thats already over 3000 gas and I might argue that you only have 10 marauders and 10 ghosts. If you have too much gas, its alot more about how you manage your economy instead of actually having no units to spend gas on. Ghosts and a lot of them is very valid and very strong as we've seen this MLG but still no one here gives a shit I guess and writes it off as not valid, yet we saw ThorZaIN absolute crushing MC with only 10 ghosts. If he had 20-25, no single storm or archon would see the light of the day. You can play Terran and only take 1 gas at your expansion, or take 5 instead of 6 on 3 base. It will give you even more of a mineral income or the advantage of having less harvesters and a bigger army, but yet again I might argue: If you lose your army once as Terran and want to build it up again... it does cost a lot of gas. Its just not that you frequently trade high-expensive gas units like Protoss or Zerg would. I mostly agree with your other posts but here I have to strongly disagree. It's a huge problem that Terran doesn't get much use out of their gas geysirs if the game goes past four bases. I don't see how you can make an argument against that being a problem. If there is a split map scenario the terran ends up with a lot less resources available on the map than the Protoss player because his minerals will be mined out and spend way before he even touches the rest of his gas geysirs. 4 collosus 1200 mins 800 gas 7 high templars 350 mins 1050 gas 6 archons 1500 mins 1500 gas 3050 mins 3350 gas That's already more than 3k gas at a lower supply count (72) and less mineral cost. Even if you would have to replace your gas units consistently as a Terran player you would end up with a mineral deficit not being able to spend the rest of your gas because there is simply no gas dump in the current terran army composition. | ||
|
denlillemand
Denmark15 Posts
1 immortal = gg- | ||
|
][Primarch][
Sweden302 Posts
| ||
|
Angel_
United States1617 Posts
On March 26 2012 00:41 denlillemand wrote: yup -- so true, HOTS will give us the possiblity of meching in all matchups i guess so- and just a+move vs amove, still haven't quite figuired out how that'll work vs mass immortals tho 1 immortal = gg-you are aware that immortals are not in fact, immortal, correct? | ||
|
boppel
140 Posts
also building time nerfs killed terra | ||
|
Huitzi
United States33 Posts
| ||
|
Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On March 26 2012 02:51 Huitzi wrote: MKP vs Parting anyone? After winning a huge battle, MKP's lead gets destroyed by 2 storms. While the Protoss can harrass expansions with 2 chargelots costing 200 and most of their army is only chargelots, interesting. You can't say that MKP played better than Parting though. His storms were absolutely sick, and his templar spread was too. And I'm saying this as an absolute hater of Protoss. | ||
|
Xirroh
Canada146 Posts
| ||
|
mapleleafs791
United States225 Posts
On March 26 2012 02:51 Huitzi wrote: MKP vs Parting anyone? After winning a huge battle, MKP's lead gets destroyed by 2 storms. While the Protoss can harrass expansions with 2 chargelots costing 200 and most of their army is only chargelots, interesting. Come on now, take off the blinders. MKP's ghost control wasnt even close to parting's HT Control and, no shit, your gonna get walked over with no ghosts. Look at every battle that he hit emps/snipes, partings army got rolled. Well played game where the better player won, dont turn every single terran loss into balance whine. What do you want 100% win rate? I agree with alot of the sentiment in this thread but there is sooo much ignorant complaining. | ||
|
Valfar.ein.Windir
Germany1 Post
| ||
|
Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On March 26 2012 02:55 Xirroh wrote: Storms vs Bio are crazy good. However MKP needed to Obs snipe better. Parting could see everything he was doing. Also with so many Obs MKP couldn't use ghosts to take out HTemps very well. He also didn't drop at all. However in terms of this thread the storms looked a lot easier for an average player to pull off then what MKP was doing to survive. Also the previous topic of how Terran cant push for the win because of warp in was true here as well. It's how the current metagame is now, accept, switch race or quit. When EMP's hit, the army just melts. Also if you notice how many marines MKP made vs his marauders, a lot of people overmake marauders imo | ||
| ||
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/puzO7.jpg)
