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On March 25 2012 12:19 Bidj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 12:10 gondolin wrote:On March 25 2012 12:02 mazqo wrote:On March 25 2012 10:46 Alexstrasas wrote:I cant undestand why people are pulling their e-peen to justify their arguments, like if basic logic is closely correlated to how well u play the game. Also if u really want to go that way, there are plenty of high level players like BeastyQt, Cloud, QXC, etc. that share similar concerns with the ones posted by various terrans in this thread. On March 25 2012 08:31 naama- wrote:On March 25 2012 06:33 mazqo wrote:
All your QQ'ing about protoss being easier and overpowered and amoves over terran is just your unknowledge about how your race works and how protoss works. You make wrong unit composition, you dont know few things how you should fight, you dont abuse orbitals etc so you always make the same mistakes even when you dont know that you are making them. When you realize these things, matchup will become much more easier and you dont need to have 200 eAPM in fights and kite the hell out of your units and one misclick wont lose you the game.
For example, lets take 20 warp gates. You won a fight, but you have 20 units left and no medivacs nor vikigns remaining. Should you push? No because he will warp 20 units and kill your units. What you should do is remax 200/200 again, maybe try to deny his bases because if he warped 20 units to his natural, he cant warp 20 units to his base that he is trying to build. So when is good time to try to finish the game? When you win a fight with many units left. You have medics healing all your units to full hp. You have vikings left to kill colos. You have marines and marauders to kite zealots etc. (in 200/200 you dont need ot kite zealots, because they will die fast to 3-3 marines and ghosts, but in smaller fights you do.).
How will you win a fight with like that? Play defensive when toss has his 3bases saturated and +8 gateways and few colos, unless you get advantige before that. Max with 10 ghosts, 14 vikings, 1:4 marauder:marines. Leave marauders in front and marines back. Its huge that few marauders tanks colo hits rather than 5 marines that gets instakilled. Then just press stim when your opponent suicides his units to your defensive posture, scan his army and emp/snipe HT's.
So. What if toss doesnt attack? When you are near maxed. Start building macro orbitals since you will start floating minerals when you are making vikings and ghosts and 3-3 upgrades. Kill ~25scv's so you have around 40-45 scv's vs protoss's 75. Which means you have 30 supply bigger army. Now start moving out and take 4th and 5th etc and fight if toss doesnt camp with cannons at some location. If he does, you can try to move around him and get him in bad position, but dont attack to protoss army when he is spreaded out and sitting over cannons.
What should you do in fight? You can move around with vikings on move command to follow your army. so you can move with 2 control groups, ghosts and bio+medic. You only have to do 4 things to win a fight.
1. Scan his army to see where his ghosts are at etc..
2. Press stim
3. CTRL click your marines and move them behind marauders and press stop, now they are safe from splash.
4. Spam EMP with priority: 1. HT's 2. Rest - its also good to try to emp colos so they die to less hits from vikings.
Only time you would want to kite is when there are ht's and your ghosts are stuck behind your army and you cant emp them because your army is blocking your own ghosts.
You should never lose a fight when:
- Opponent doesnt get any storms. (because of emp or he has no HT's)
- You get cloaked ghosts next to your opponents army because he has no observer (Observer snipe is bonus, and if you think you are good enough to snipe his observer, then do this) - If you scan him and see he has no observer. You should win the game easily. Good post, really helpful While this might be "helpful" as general tips it adds nothing to the thread and infact in this context just sounds silly, it pretty much says: "You guys are saying that protoss is just a-move? Rubbish! You just need to understand protoss and do X and Y and Z and play flawlesly". If i really wanted to nitpick the issue, i would say that advice regarding the 20 warp gates, makes sense, IF you are atacking, but last time i checked you can warp in directly by the enemy base, wich protip, was an issue discussed negatively in this thread, and the rest is pretty much "HEY GUYS YOU DONT NEED 200APM YOU JUST NEED SICK CONTROL", i mean seriously writing " scan his HT, EMP all of them, snipe his observer" is easy, doing it, is something that is even an issue for a pro, and he for some reason forgets to mention that meanwhile the protoss just has to a-move and cast storms WICH IS PRETTY MUCH THE MAIN ISSUE DISCUSSED HERE also + Show Spoiler +nobody here asked for tips Usually when you rape your opponent hard, warping 20 zealots wont do anything when bio kites them. No one asked tips, sure. So people just like to cry about imbalance when they dont want to learn to counter these "imbas". Like QXC said in his interview with SK-gaming, if you dont know how to counter something, its "imbalanced" but suddendly when you learn to counter it, its not imba. I really appreciated your advice, I just won a game against a Toss by implementing it  One of the main thing I realized, is that if a fight occur when I am unprepared I die really hard (I get stormed before I have time to emp), whereas if I prepare for the fight I can win it. Do you have any tips on how to track the toss army movement (so that I can prepare for a fight)? Scans are nice but I also want to use mule... Using your factory, floating it in the middle of the map is one of the way to track the toss army movements.
I think HuK said MKP was one of the best at using his Factory in annoying ways for Protoss.
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On March 25 2012 12:19 Bidj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 12:10 gondolin wrote:I really appreciated your advice, I just won a game against a Toss by implementing it One of the main thing I realized, is that if a fight occur when I am unprepared I die really hard (I get stormed before I have time to emp), whereas if I prepare for the fight I can win it. Do you have any tips on how to track the toss army movement (so that I can prepare for a fight)? Scans are nice but I also want to use mule... Using your factory, floating it in the middle of the map is one of the way to track the toss army movements.
I use it to track the timing of the third, maybe I should send a marine here instead and use my factory somewhere else indeed!
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On March 25 2012 12:35 gondolin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 12:19 Bidj wrote:On March 25 2012 12:10 gondolin wrote:I really appreciated your advice, I just won a game against a Toss by implementing it One of the main thing I realized, is that if a fight occur when I am unprepared I die really hard (I get stormed before I have time to emp), whereas if I prepare for the fight I can win it. Do you have any tips on how to track the toss army movement (so that I can prepare for a fight)? Scans are nice but I also want to use mule... Using your factory, floating it in the middle of the map is one of the way to track the toss army movements. I use it to track the timing of the third, maybe I should send a marine here instead and use my factory somewhere else indeed!
I use my Factory in this way as well. I find that it is a more reliant scout than a marine.
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If scans weren't so easily accessible, there probably would be habit of building "scan raxes". Factory is a start, but it often dies. Having multiple raxes around would be fun sight
Having control of nagas is the most obvious way to know - there's very limited ways to go around naga, so basically you always know from what route he's coming from. Supplement that with few scans when preparing for big fight and you're great. You don't need to mule with 3+ OCs constantly to keep decent macro going. And as mentioned, lifted factory gives maphack for the longest time - toss doesn't have good enough antiair to go shoot it if it hovers somewhere around keyareas of the map, where you don't feel comfortable going with your army until lategame. I personally don't have even 8 stalkers before like 150pop.
And in situations where you just macro and camp on 3bases, like antiga or entombed, it's not criminal to build sensor tower. When defending, it certainly works as maphack. When you attack, stim 1 marine ahead of the army so you don't run straight into big flank or storms. In right places scan, but the stim marine can often save you a scan or two if moving long distances, in scenarios like entombed/taldarim xpos.
I think there are enough ways if you just use all the tools
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On March 25 2012 11:28 LavaLava wrote:Hey, if you're looking to rejuvenate your TvP lategame play I can't speak with much authority, but I developed a nice early game push that usually puts you on 2 bases versus 1, which seems to be the proper way to play Terran right now anyway. At least below pro level. I figure people in this thread might be looking for something like this. It's an early Ghost build designed to capitalize on the fact that nonaggressive early game Protoss relies on forcefields to survive, and aggressive Protoss can't ramp run vs an EMP. It works in Master league so it's OK. The base advantage seems more reliable than hoping your early expo doesn't go up against an even earlier Protoss expo. It's also fun. And it doesn't tech into anything you weren't going to tech into later, like a 1-1-1 does. Lava's Ghost ExpoIt's an amazingly reliable expansion denier, and a nonreliable but fairly viable game ender (with a ramp bust). It also lets you up the pressure with another Ghost if you catch him being greedy. You can pretty much do whatever you want, and then land your orbital and outmacro him even if he went for an earlier expo. Try it out, it's how you should probably play until TvP lategame gets either better or easier.
This looks really cool, worth a try.
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I think a major thing thats hindering T in the lategame against toss right now is...simply put how mineral intensive Terrans unit composition, lets do a quick breakdown:
Marines: 50 Minerals
Marauders: 100 Minerals 25 Gas
Medivacs: 100 Minerals 100 Gas
Ghosts: 200 Minerals 100 Gas
Vikings 150 Minerals 75 Gas
There is no real way for T to utilize gas which results in (a lot of the time) where Terran has like 2k+ (sometimes 4k...its absurd) gas that is useless without minerals to spend. I think if Terran could spend minerals and gas more effectively and evenly it would solve a lot of heartache for T.
Blizzard has shoehorned TvP to this state, we have to play aggressive and multitask quite a bit and either kill in the early/mid game or get an advantage we ride till the late game. For a long time I absolutely hated this thought it was total bullshit. Now? I don't really care, we fight or we die.
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On March 25 2012 12:39 Ouga wrote:If scans weren't so easily accessible, there probably would be habit of building "scan raxes". Factory is a start, but it often dies. Having multiple raxes around would be fun sight
Using some raxes for scouting isn't actually a bad idea, since you could also use them as terran ''force fields'' by landing them down to create chokes to have easier time handling zealots. =P
Still, that would be a lot of lost production you could have had. Maybe factories would be better. More health, no need for them for production and there is little need for gas at late game so might as well finally put it into a good use. =D
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On March 25 2012 04:28 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 02:01 Big J wrote:On March 25 2012 01:26 LavaLava wrote:On March 24 2012 21:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control This is pretty silly, because Terran has probably the least ability to come back from worker deaths. Hatcheries and chrono'd nexus are better except for super lategame scenarios where you have a billion orbitals. (which are equivalent to 4 workers) no, your response is silly. If you start mass droning after you lost half your economy, you are simply dead. Not to mention that droning costs a ton of money, which you get back somewhere after 1:15mins. 2mins to start some form of army production again, 3-4mins to have a defense. But yeah, in bronze it might work. Huh? Did you just read some other post right before mine, and get confused between the two? Do you have some kind of preconceived game scenario in your head that nobody else knows about? In Bronze, droning might work? Really? All I said was that it's silly to complain that heavy worker deaths don't completely GG Terran, because Protoss and especially Zerg have an even greater capacity to replace workers than Terran does, until the super lategame. If a Terran and Zerg wipe out a bunch of each other's workers, the Zerg is ahead. 1 Orbital is just the equivalent of 200 minerals in the bank that you can only spend on workers, and it costs 150 to make. The primary advantage of the mining orbital is its resilience. It isn't imbalanced. I think any, any Terran would rather transform his CC into a Hatchery instead of an OC.
Nope, I don't have a specific game scenario in my head, it just doesn't make sense to compare things of one race in SC2 with similar things of another race in SC2 and then argue one is better, as there are situations to respect, in which those things do matter or not.
Saying zerg can just redrone is as right as saying Terran can just mass Orbitals to begin with and not ever care about worker deaths; in both scenarios those races just die, because they don't have units on the battlefield.
Unless the opponent did sacrifice most of his army on your economy while you kept your army; in that case you simply don't care about the worker losses and kill him. (especially as zerg, because in a scenario in which you can build 20drones at once, you can also just build 40zerglings as once, and your opponent should be really glad if you make the mistake and choose the drones)
and sure every Terran would trade Terran production with Zerg production; every Zerg would trade Zerg units with Terran units as well; those things are not balanced against each other, it's the whole picture that is (or at least seems to be close to) balanced.
On March 25 2012 04:57 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 02:55 XquisiteWretch wrote:also you don't have a "way of speeding up workerproduction" as Z/P; chronoboosting and mass droning are the standard ways to produce workers for Protoss and Zerg (that's why Terrans rightfully argue they need mules, if you remember your racemates arguements) in any standard (presaturation) scenario and the game is balanced around them; you can't produce faster after you received damage than you would do anyways I dont even know what I just read, was that english? Don't know. But those of us who are actually trying to get something meaningful out of this have just been ignoring Big J. His posts in this thread have been utter crap.
Seems like you don't try to get something meaningful out of this, as you seem to follow each and every of my posts.
Thanks for the attention!
On March 25 2012 05:42 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 05:24 convention wrote:One game I would recommend watching is Thorzain v MC game 2. + Show Spoiler +Thorzain didn't kite in any of the battles, and rolled over MCs army. Similar to what Naruto was saying, he had lots of ghosts, put his marauders in front of the rines, and spammed emp. He wasn't ahead on bases, or army supply, he didn't do a 300+ APM battle that everyone is complaining about. And SupLilson: Big J probably has some of the best posts in this entire thread, he really doesn't deserved to constantly be flamed. There is way too much garbage posting in this thread for you to even consider his bad. How many posts say something along the lines "I have 70% TvZ, 30% TvP, so clearly TvP is imbalance, but TvZ is not"? Or my favorite one from Yosho about how terrans are just better because koreans play terrans... why not call that post out? Last I checked, koreans play all 3 races... No, read his posts, they are all low quality, inflammatory, overly aggressive and just uninformed. I don't really care to discuss it. I'm not calling Yosho out because he is a very high ranked masters RANDOM player and thus, I trust that he knows more than just about every one else posting in this thread.
Yup, I get overly aggressive, but I try to only post in such a way against posts that were overly aggressive as well. But I would never personally insult someone for his opinion 
If anyone tries to argue calmy and objectively and stays away from arrogant "I play Terran, thus I'm better", "My 70% TvZ winrate is because I'm better than my Zerg opponents, because TvP 30% holds me back", "P/Z is simply easier and Terran is simply harder for everyone, because I have tried them all", you won't read anything aggressive from me. Hell, you will even hear me say things like when I was able to discuss calmly with ChaosTerran (after some terrible flaming) about Mech: it needs buffs against Protoss.
What I'm not going to do is, take a whiny/aggressive post from this thread and be all objective.
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On March 25 2012 19:32 Big J wrote:
Saying zerg can just redrone is as right as saying Terran can just mass Orbitals to begin with and not ever care about worker deaths; in both scenarios those races just die, because they don't have units on the battlefield.
That's ridiculous. I never said drone deaths have no effect on Zerg. I said they can replace workers faster than Terran can. That's as plain as day.
I don't see what is so confusing about that, and I don't know how that keeps translating to "Zerg is literally unkillable" to you. Are you reading "redrone" as "start from 0 drones"???
I said it was silly to complain that hitting a Terran mineral line is not an auto-win, because that's never an auto-win. It's like complaining that Protoss can drop units on your base. Fucking everyone can drop. It's stupid.
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On March 25 2012 20:03 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 19:32 Big J wrote:
Saying zerg can just redrone is as right as saying Terran can just mass Orbitals to begin with and not ever care about worker deaths; in both scenarios those races just die, because they don't have units on the battlefield. That's ridiculous. I never said drone deaths have no effect on Zerg. I said they can replace workers faster than Terran can. That's as plain as day. I don't see what is so confusing about that, and I don't know how that keeps translating to "Zerg is literally unkillable" to you. Are you reading "redrone" as "start from 0 drones"??? I said it was silly to complain that hitting a Terran mineral line is not an auto-win, because that's never an auto-win. It's like complaining that Protoss can drop units on your base. Fucking everyone can drop. It's stupid.
yeah, that is as plain as day. The conclusion that Terran suffers the most from this, is not, because the game is more complex than "I lost workers, I hit S-DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD and I'm fine, just because my race offers the potential to do so".
On March 25 2012 01:26 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 21:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control This is pretty silly, because Terran has probably the least ability to come back from worker deaths. Hatcheries and chrono'd nexus are better except for super lategame scenarios where you have a billion orbitals. (which are equivalent to 4 workers)
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Im top-3 ml terran for about a year
Im saving all my game replays and have 4k+ 1v1 replays from SCII release (Only ladder)
Some analysis:
3601 replays (from 09 aug. 2010 to 25 march 2012, only Tv*)
TvP 1384 (38,53%)
TvZ 1288 (35,86%)
TvT 920 (25,61%)
854 replays (from 01 Jan 2012 to 25 march 2012, only Tv*)
TvP 328 (38,68%)
TvZ 295 (34,79%)
TvT 225 (26,53%)
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On March 25 2012 10:57 sagdashin wrote:
I think people have gone way off-topic here. We need to discuss or theorize why terrans disappear, and why, as it's a zero-sum game in some way (with percentages), zerg and protoss players increase.
Pro level is not something to be talked about in this tbh as it's out of our league, literally, you can't expect T to be like MMA, or P like MC or whatever, focus on the average player.
It's obviously because Terran is the hardest race for a low level player (diamond to master). That's why you see a a good representation of Terrans in the proffessional scene, but not as good in ladder.
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On March 25 2012 11:51 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 11:24 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 25 2012 11:18 ZenithM wrote:On March 25 2012 11:13 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 25 2012 11:08 convention wrote:On March 25 2012 10:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 25 2012 10:58 convention wrote:On March 25 2012 10:48 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 25 2012 10:32 ZenithM wrote:On March 25 2012 10:19 ChaosTerran wrote:
[quote]
I don't care about the highest level of play and that's not even the point, the point is that every gold league shmock can control a protoss army well enough to beat a way better player. And again, nobody is calling me out on anything, the only person replying to me is YOU. I hate to have to speak with you, but you're the one who's pretty much flaming non stop in this thread since the beginning. You refuse to discuss with Protoss players for one, and plus you prevent more reasonable and more skilled Terrans than you to contribute. I don't read much of what you're saying because it will most likely be "Protoss A-move noob hahahahaha" and honestly, we both know that nobody will make you change your stance. What's your purpose here? You want Protosses to publicly admit that they're no skilled brainless scrubs? Or you want Blizzard to hear your (quite loud) complains and make changes that will fit the great ChaosTerran? You can think that Protoss is OP without flaming them like they're not even human beings. Just present your arguments without sounding like a douchebag and accept obvious facts like "Protoss does have to micro sometimes". I too think that Protoss is very favored in lower level (I think that it evens up in high masters though, while you seem to think that TvP is fine only at the very highest GSL-like levels, which "you don't care about"). Just to say that I somewhat share your opinions. I just don't share your ways to go about it. Well, I have logically refuted his argument. Now you coming out with some random ad hominem attacks doesn't really change that, does it? The guy said something which is obviously wrong. I didn't only just refute his argument, I actually exposed him as a liar, who lied about his race and rank. Now, I don't see why exactly you expect me to have a serious discussion with someone after I found out that they were lying to me since the very beginning of our initial discussion. At that point I don't see why I should discuss anything with this person. He was obviously trolling, or else he wouldn't blatantly lie about stuff like this. This by the way, is the second time in this thread where I have exposed someone who lied about their race and rank, I don't fall for these shennanigans so people either stop trolling or I will keep exposing them, but don't expect a serious discussion about the game when people in this thread aren't even mature enough to not lie about their race and rank. edit: I mean, I knew for a fact that this guy is not a master league terran simply because of how wrong his post was. Turns out he isn't in masters and he doesn't even play terran. Now, you tell me, if I'm really that biased then how come that I can logically expose liars, simply by reading their posts about the game? You'd think that this is impossible for someone who, according to you, only think in black and white. You really haven't exposed anyone. Did you read naama's post? Or are you talking about the guy that linked his GM account which you misread and thought it was diamond? Just wondering... How about you just read. I have nothing to do with the naama discussion. READ For all the people who are a bit slow: I AM NOT YOSHO, I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR DISCUSSION, I ONLY ARGUED WITH 1 GUY IN PARTICULAR AND NOBODY ELSE. GOT IT? One of the people you "exposed" naama said he knows. That is why his post is relevant. No, for god's sake. Just read the conversation. I exposed LightSpectre or whatever his name was. I had absolutely nothing to do with the naama discussion. I only ever wondered why he was linking a diamond league account. I never claimed to have exposed anyone there, in fact I didn't even post a single link. However, I exposed LightSpectre as a liar and troll, which is what I am talking about. Well good for you then. Well yes it is. The only sad part is that it took you guys 2 full pages to realize that I had nothing to do with the naama situation and that I was talking to someone else. I mean you could have of course just read the goddamn posts instead, but I guess it's easier to first accuse people of bias and hostility before actually checking the facts. Good job, to all of you. How about you just read. I have nothing to do with the "ChaosTerran witch-hunting legit high-leaguers" discussion. READ For all the people who are a bit slow: I AM NOT CONVENTION, I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR DISCUSSION, I ONLY ARGUED WITH 1 GUY IN PARTICULAR AND NOBODY ELSE. GOT IT? See what I did there? I never accused you of...mhh...false accusations I guess :D. I too said that Lightspectra was a troll when you relevantly pointed out his profile description on TL, and I saw that you had nothing to do with the other legit players. My point was that you just sound way too vehement (like...capslocking your whole message and searching for personal infos to prove that some random master guy is a "liar"), since the beginning of the thread. What's more, I find it odd that you ask for ranks to validate someone else's argument (which I find pretty ok in itself) BUT you say you don't care about the highest level of play. What's the line then. Only guys between 700 and 1100 points in master, preferably Terrans, can speak on this thread? Well obviously this is not going anywhere.
Just going to say this really quick so that we can end this discussion. I never asked for the guy's rank to validate his opinion. I think as long as a post is well-thought out and makes sense it really doesn't matter who wrote it. But the thing is that this guys post was obviously wrong, I knew immediately that he doesn't understand TvP very well from the terran side, because some of the stuff he said was just flatout wrong. And at that point I simply have to ask "what rank are you, what race do you play", because this guy is trying to give people "advice" is wrong and I don't see why I should take advice from players ranked much lower than myself (not that I'm a high ranked top player but still) that don't even play the race they are talking about (I mean imagine me walking up to some GM protoss giving them advice on how to play protoss right, that's just arrogant and obviously wrong). That's ridiculous. Notice how I never argued with mazq or whatever his name was (naama's buddy), because his post made actually some sense for the most part and it was legitimate advice and not just some random nonsense put together by a platinum protoss. And then again, as long as something is well thought out, league, rank or even race doesn't matter, but when something is obviously wrong, even from a theoretical standpoint then you just have to ask yourself the question if low level advice is ever useful to someone who plays at a much higher level.
And again I'm not saying I know as much as Grandmaster league players or even high master league player, because I don't and I don't play at that level yet, but why should I take advice from a platinum protoss about how to play TvP or even TvP in general when I can immediately identify his post as bullshit without even knowing his rank or league to begin with.
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On March 25 2012 06:33 mazqo wrote:
All your QQ'ing about protoss being easier and overpowered and amoves over terran is just your unknowledge about how your race works and how protoss works. You make wrong unit composition, you dont know few things how you should fight, you dont abuse orbitals etc so you always make the same mistakes even when you dont know that you are making them. When you realize these things, matchup will become much more easier and you dont need to have 200 eAPM in fights and kite the hell out of your units and one misclick wont lose you the game.
For example, lets take 20 warp gates. You won a fight, but you have 20 units left and no medivacs nor vikigns remaining. Should you push? No because he will warp 20 units and kill your units. What you should do is remax 200/200 again, maybe try to deny his bases because if he warped 20 units to his natural, he cant warp 20 units to his base that he is trying to build. So when is good time to try to finish the game? When you win a fight with many units left. You have medics healing all your units to full hp. You have vikings left to kill colos. You have marines and marauders to kite zealots etc. (in 200/200 you dont need ot kite zealots, because they will die fast to 3-3 marines and ghosts, but in smaller fights you do.).
How will you win a fight with like that? Play defensive when toss has his 3bases saturated and +8 gateways and few colos, unless you get advantige before that. Max with 10 ghosts, 14 vikings, 1:4 marauder:marines. Leave marauders in front and marines back. Its huge that few marauders tanks colo hits rather than 5 marines that gets instakilled. Then just press stim when your opponent suicides his units to your defensive posture, scan his army and emp/snipe HT's.
So. What if toss doesnt attack? When you are near maxed. Start building macro orbitals since you will start floating minerals when you are making vikings and ghosts and 3-3 upgrades. Kill ~25scv's so you have around 40-45 scv's vs protoss's 75. Which means you have 30 supply bigger army. Now start moving out and take 4th and 5th etc and fight if toss doesnt camp with cannons at some location. If he does, you can try to move around him and get him in bad position, but dont attack to protoss army when he is spreaded out and sitting over cannons.
What should you do in fight? You can move around with vikings on move command to follow your army. so you can move with 2 control groups, ghosts and bio+medic. You only have to do 4 things to win a fight.
1. Scan his army to see where his ghosts are at etc..
2. Press stim
3. CTRL click your marines and move them behind marauders and press stop, now they are safe from splash.
4. Spam EMP with priority: 1. HT's 2. Rest - its also good to try to emp colos so they die to less hits from vikings.
Only time you would want to kite is when there are ht's and your ghosts are stuck behind your army and you cant emp them because your army is blocking your own ghosts.
You should never lose a fight when:
- Opponent doesnt get any storms. (because of emp or he has no HT's)
- You get cloaked ghosts next to your opponents army because he has no observer (Observer snipe is bonus, and if you think you are good enough to snipe his observer, then do this) - If you scan him and see he has no observer. You should win the game easily.
In my short sc2 history I have tried lots of things (huge spreading at fights - this one ended with me down 140 supply/him 30 supply, attacking with ghosts from his back - went surprisingly well, except he had another 2 full energy templars somewhere, dropping inside his army - worst mistake ever) and so far the only notable success I have had comes from mech attacking at 14 minutes blue flame/tanks/vikings. Why does it work? The same reason why other abnormal strategies work. The enemy makes his standard vs bio build order. I have never managed to win bio vs deathball 200 case scenarios and cant even think what might happen if you survive with 20 marines vs the next 14 zealots 3 archons warpin. The only stable play I can manage in order to make it a close game is taking a risk with a hidden 3rd into a mmmv attack at around 16 minutes. Its real shaky though, because you will not have ghosts, so it 100% depends on where he puts his FF.
I am so desperate I might try this, even if it seems like a strategy that should never work. Only 4 things to win a fight with that low micro requirement after letting him take over half the map? Are you trolling or something? When will he attack? When you are stuck at 4/5 bases(really bold move to go that far) and he has N-4/5? That will be like a 30 gateways/3 robos vs 20 barracks scenario? The only thing the protoss needs is to beat your army ONCE. Doesnt matter if he losses all of his in the process, because I doubt a terran will have more bases than a protoss. And why EMP ht's? In master they are always spread out, so I doubt "GM protoss's" do it.
edit: And can some when tell me when I can trully kill a protoss, because I have had my share of running into a couple of templars and losing all my advantage?
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I invested some training sessions to offrace Protoss from bronze just to gain a few new perspectives. I didn't know any strat - just basic openings, no cheese - or the current metagame. In 64 games (11 losses) I played myself to high diamond within master reach with a 93% winrate in PvT (15 games), 80% in PvZ (26 games), 78% in PvP (23 games) without any form of advanced micro. I'm a bit curious how far I will get but Protoss really seems a good ladder race for beginners who don't want the burden to perfect their gameplay (T), learn a lot of theory or have a incredible game sense (Z). Some timings seem a bit too strong for ladder and I think my enemies needed much more effort to keep up with my basic play.
Edit: Sorry, forgot to adjust the numbers from todays session.
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On March 25 2012 21:22 VoO wrote:I invested some training sessions to offrace Protoss from bronze just to gain a few new perspectives. I didn't know any strat - just basic openings, no cheese - or the current metagame. In 64 games (11 losses) I played myself to high diamond within master reach with a 93% winrate in PvT (15 games), 80% in PvZ (26 games), 78% in PvP (23 games) without any form of advanced micro. I'm a bit curious how far I will get but Protoss really seems a good ladder race for beginners who don't want the burden to perfect their gameplay (T), learn a lot of theory or have a incredible game sense (Z). Some timings seem a bit too strong for ladder and I think my enemies needed much more effort to keep up with my basic play. Edit: Sorry, forgot to adjust the numbers from todays session.
Any high master can offrace starting from bronze literally getting a 90% winrace with every race, just on pure mechanics.
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It's a whole different story on KR ladder.
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On March 25 2012 21:49 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 21:22 VoO wrote:I invested some training sessions to offrace Protoss from bronze just to gain a few new perspectives. I didn't know any strat - just basic openings, no cheese - or the current metagame. In 64 games (11 losses) I played myself to high diamond within master reach with a 93% winrate in PvT (15 games), 80% in PvZ (26 games), 78% in PvP (23 games) without any form of advanced micro. I'm a bit curious how far I will get but Protoss really seems a good ladder race for beginners who don't want the burden to perfect their gameplay (T), learn a lot of theory or have a incredible game sense (Z). Some timings seem a bit too strong for ladder and I think my enemies needed much more effort to keep up with my basic play. Edit: Sorry, forgot to adjust the numbers from todays session. Any high master can offrace starting from bronze literally getting a 90% winrace with every race, just on pure mechanics.
Yes, unfortunately. So what is the conclusion? The mechanics are not as individual as they should be? The ladder system itself is flawed? Every player is still so bad that it's not relevant?
Why does "skill" translate better from Terran to Protoss but worse from Protoss to Zerg (at least for me)? Can you imagine a C- Protoss switching to Terran (or vice versa) in Broodwar and succeed? Why not?
I think the answers will show that there is a design issue...
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On March 25 2012 22:24 VoO wrote:
Yes, unfortunately. So what is the conclusion? The mechanics are not as individual as they should be? The ladder system itself is flawed? Every player is still so bad that it's not relevant?
Why does "skill" translate better from Terran to Protoss but worse from Protoss to Zerg (at least for me)? Can you imagine a C- Protoss switching to Terran (or vice versa) in Broodwar and succeed? Why not?
I think the answers will show that there is a design issue...
Well, that sounds like more of an issue of refinement than of design. I mean yeah, BW had all kinds of specific micro actions for each race, but check back on SC2 in 10 years and I think the play will be studied and refined enough that offracing will be much harder.
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EPT
