On March 12 2012 10:29 freakhill wrote: So basically Gheed's main contribution is ruining the fun of legitimate players and publicly humiliate them, cherrypicking games with low bronze opponents against which he could only reach a slightly above 50% winrate? And he is being lauded for that? He is actively making people leave the game, and others emulate him. Is this a good thing for esport to make people hate the game? Can't you have respect for fellow players just because they cannot play as well as you do? Is that the SC2 community?
OP was just looking for fellow high bronze players to have fun with. He never asked for advice (in which case this post would have been relocated to SC2 strategy). He never said that he is a good player or that he wanted to reach a higher league. He just wanted to share his experience with other highly active bronze players so that his bronze fellows get to enjoy the game more. Then came the train of ego-strokers...
How laughable that you think that Bronze League has anything to do with E-sports.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
freakhill, when you play a game are you trying to win? I'll assume that you are, indeed, trying to win... So why would you not try to get better at the game? I don't play very much at all, but still platinum as random and I know that I'm shit. If people in bronze league think they are doing fine at any aspect of the game then they are doing themselves a huge disservice. Lying to yourself is the worst kinda of lie. If you have no aspiration at improving at SC2 (which is what the majority of people on TL try to do, and also the reason this thread is met so harshly) then why play? I for one, don't find it fun to lose.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
Complacency is always bad, thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is.
The issue is that they define fun in a way so that they can mask their complacency, instead of finding fun in improving and finding fun in getting better and finding fun in gaining leagues. Its not possible for a bronze player to be hardcore, if they are staying in Bronze.
EDIT: in accordance with the gentleman above me, if you want to have fun in a competitive game, you will seek to win more, and that is by improving, and so by improving and winning more, you will get out of bronze. simple maths.
So funny that this thread has come about. I'm part of a Starcraft parody musical group called 'Viva La Dirt League' we made this song:
And more songs. However our next song is based on Michael Jacksons 'They don't care about us'. Which is about being bronze league and feeling small lol. It's called 'They don't care about bronze'. We've recorded the song and are filming the music video this weekend.
If you wanna hear a song from people who hear your plight then subscribe. It will be up in a couple of weeks.
TBH, this whole topic is why I am no longer a Day9 fan. He provides content for low level players. He isn't interested in providing high-quality in-depth analysis of a game or a MU like I see Artosis doing. He wants to drag the lower leagues up by their bootstraps and leaves the smaller part of the community, but the more active part, high and dry.
To be clear, I respect the guy and what he does, as well as the obvious effectiveness in terms of capitalization of his moniker. However, the mentality that low league is OK and you can get better with this one build you saw on a newbie tuesday is simply bad and false. The builds shown aren't amazing, are generally poor examples of actually good play, and generally showcase a novelty rather than solid, standard play.
Back on topic, however, the shameless self plug above is notable, as it is funny. I must retain my view on the OP's mentality as a bad one.
On March 11 2012 21:56 ArkanTos wrote: I started 2 years ago, was placed in silver. I still only play 1-2 hours a day, but the difference ist, im master league now, i daily watch streams, playing 5-8 games every day. What i'm saying is, you CANT be to slow for higher leagues than bronze, it is so .
But playing every day 10 games without thinking about it, won't help you to become better, play less games but think about it, and you will recognice you're improvement.
PS: Sry my english isn't the best^^.
Well said, your english is fine, watching streams is important, better from the players perspective than general sc2 events, the key is intensity (keep minerals down, always be occupied) and knowing the bare basics (when to expand, number of workers on mineral line), build orders are easy after that.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
This is why people are degrading to you.
In my opinion, you deserve it, as you said you are happy with your spot in bronze. you can improve if you want to, and you are choosing to not.
(Adressed to OP)
Well, not everyone is degrading The original intent of this, as was the post on reddit, was to get a hold of players like myself to play some games, and I have quite a few now; as well as some channels I wasn't aware of.
I agree to an extent. I'm sure if I gave up many other things I could refine and improve enough to move up, however I've spent approximately a year with mentors, taking notes, watching replays, following pros, etc. and I am where I am. (Edit: Before more people say "MACRO!", that is always something I am always working on. I usually watch a replay once just for probe production and money.) I can play around 2 hours a day, and that will get me to top of my bronze league, and I'm having a lot of fun in it.
If you're stuck in bronze you're lacking game knowledge probably. If you play that much there's no way your mechanics aren't good enough for at least plat. I know this because I can beat mid plat players with just the mouse. Just use one safe build and try to learn the game more and more by watching replays.
On March 12 2012 10:29 freakhill wrote: So basically Gheed's main contribution is ruining the fun of legitimate players and publicly humiliate them, cherrypicking games with low bronze opponents against which he could only reach a slightly above 50% winrate? And he is being lauded for that? He is actively making people leave the game, and others emulate him. Is this a good thing for esport to make people hate the game? Can't you have respect for fellow players just because they cannot play as well as you do? Is that the SC2 community?
OP was just looking for fellow high bronze players to have fun with. He never asked for advice (in which case this post would have been relocated to SC2 strategy). He never said that he is a good player or that he wanted to reach a higher league. He just wanted to share his experience with other highly active bronze players so that his bronze fellows get to enjoy the game more. Then came the train of ego-strokers...
How laughable that you think that Bronze League has anything to do with E-sports.
business wise esport is about pairs of eyes and hands/pockets. Without eyes and money all you have is a hobby. And "masters" pairs of eyes have no more value than bronzie pairs of eyes. Moreover activity-wise the scene is fed by the bottom. New players start in bronze, you could consider the bronze league as the roots of the esport tree. New people picked up BW in korea and the scene is still alive. It didn't happen in the rest of the world where it slowly died. I hope you realize that one day.
freakhill, when you play a game are you trying to win? I'll assume that you are, indeed, trying to win... So why would you not try to get better at the game? I don't play very much at all, but still platinum as random and I know that I'm shit. If people in bronze league think they are doing fine at any aspect of the game then they are doing themselves a huge disservice. Lying to yourself is the worst kinda of lie. If you have no aspiration at improving at SC2 (which is what the majority of people on TL try to do, and also the reason this thread is met so harshly) then why play? I for one, don't find it fun to lose.
Many bronze players do a lot better than many masters at the most important aspect of the game, having fun. Moreover bronze players do not actually lose more than you do. They lose actually as much as you do, that is around 50% of their matches. People that do not lose are either pros, cheaters, or the despicable kind of people that tank their mmr to stomp on weak players and mock them. I play to have fun, not to get better. I might incidentally get better because I have interest in SC2 things but this is quite far from my objectives.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
Complacency is always bad, thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is.
The issue is that they define fun in a way so that they can mask their complacency, instead of finding fun in improving and finding fun in getting better and finding fun in gaining leagues. Its not possible for a bronze player to be hardcore, if they are staying in Bronze.
EDIT: in accordance with the gentleman above me, if you want to have fun in a competitive game, you will seek to win more, and that is by improving, and so by improving and winning more, you will get out of bronze. simple maths.
The thing is, unless you're at the top of the ladder (top GM) getting better will NOT lead to you winning more. So trying to improve will not lead to you having more fun. IMO, if you're having fun keep doing what you are doing... It's a game. + Show Spoiler +
Obviously, some people find it fun to get better and track their progress. I know I'll probably never hit GM, but I'm still trying to get better because I find progress fun.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
Complacency is always bad, thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is.
The issue is that they define fun in a way so that they can mask their complacency, instead of finding fun in improving and finding fun in getting better and finding fun in gaining leagues. Its not possible for a bronze player to be hardcore, if they are staying in Bronze.
EDIT: in accordance with the gentleman above me, if you want to have fun in a competitive game, you will seek to win more, and that is by improving, and so by improving and winning more, you will get out of bronze. simple maths.
I toward find your attitude about pointless programming very complacent. This is always bad and thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is. It's not possible to use a computer without being proficient in pointless programming. I will send you this link so that you can get basic instruction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_programming
But seriously, who are you to define what is fun for other people. Why should we care about your personally approved and certified form of fun?
EDIT: Btw the *winning more* part doesn't hold and is addressed by me precedent post and the post just above this one (that you are reading now).
On March 12 2012 09:33 Gheed wrote: Bullshit. Bronze players don't have "openings." They sit in their base for 20 minutes and then eventually decide to attack.
The last thing this thread needs is more blatant generalisations.
Even Gheed has admitted that the term "high bronze" has real meaning, since that league has such a big skill range. Obviously someone in bronze is bad at *something*, or they wouldn't be in bronze. Some might even be bad at *everything*. But they're not *all* bad at everything, and there's bound to be some that have macro a few leagues ahead, but keep walking the fruits of their production into siegetank lines. Or losing multitudes of their diligently constructed SCVs to a single reaper or banshee that they only reacted to after 20 seconds.
On March 12 2012 09:33 Gheed wrote: Bullshit. Bronze players don't have "openings." They sit in their base for 20 minutes and then eventually decide to attack.
The last thing this thread needs is more blatant generalisations.
Even Gheed has admitted that the term "high bronze" has real meaning, since that league has such a big skill range. Obviously someone in bronze is bad at *something*, or they wouldn't be in bronze. Some might even be bad at *everything*. But they're not *all* bad at everything, and there's bound to be some that have macro a few leagues ahead, but keep walking the fruits of their production into siegetank lines. Or losing multitudes of their diligently constructed SCVs to a single reaper or banshee that they only reacted to after 20 seconds.
This. Players in silver league are actually very good in EU now. I faced zergs that have around 100 average apm and creep spread most of the map at 15 minute mark while harassing with muta and doing all sorts of awesome macro games and expanding. I've seen bronze players that are better than gold. Maybe just recently players have become so good in the lower leagues since SC2 is losing its popularity? Competition is much better than it was year ago.
The fun of the game for me is trying to get better and progress in leagues. While I was climbing the ladder in the beggining I just wanted to get to higher leagues so I can play standard players and not worry so much about cheese. When I was around gold I was only doing the 7 roach rush and was winning pretty much all my games vs terran and protoss, after I got out of gold I started losing with my 7 roach rush, so I just had to learn to play. Now happily playing in master and trying to get to grandmaster.
What I would suggest is that you learn one of these builds: for terran 2 rax expo or 3-4 rax all in, for protoss 4 gate and for zerg either 7 roach rush or 1 base baneling bust, this will get you used to following a build and if you can execute it properly and learn to micro a bit better you will be in plat in no time.
On March 12 2012 21:08 freakhill wrote: ok took a replay from my stash of recent games http://drop.sc/130090
terran scouts at 7 supply terran used supplycalldown on every single depot terran makes a 3rax allin push with 4rax that is like 4 minutes to late. (or he should have way more supply) not building anything while attacking, if he has overmins he just builds way more production buildings than he can support.
zerg stays at 27 drones untill minute 15 than makes like 60 drones at once zerg gets supplyblocked makes like 3 overlords gets supply blocked makes 3 overlords repeat zerg isn't able to rally his stuff properly, zerg wants to attack vs a 1 basing terran(poor game knowledge)
was watching it x8 for the most part.
there is lots of stuff that indicates that this is a game on a very low level, bronze or silver or possibly gold(z) vs silver(t) or something.
If you're stuck in bronze and you're a ladder warrior, chances are that you are just playing blindly without learning anything. I know this for a fact because I've taught many bronze terrans and zergs and when they play, they just do everything blindly without thinking, I have no idea whats going on in their mind and to be honest, it actually makes my head hurt to teach a bronze player, because their thought process while they are playing is so strange and unorthodox. Not saying that unorthodox play isn't bad, its just bad when you are getting a depot at 9 and a barracks at 13, usually.
The day I bought my copy of SC2, I fooled around against the computer for a few hours, then did my placement matches. I just 4gated every game and got into Platinum. Since then, I've foresworn 1base all-ins (except when appropriate in PvP) and got into low Masters by playing on average an hour a week. My APM averages between about 40 and 60, and I didn't play any RTS competitively before getting SC2. You can tell me it's natural talent if you want, but by my own admission, I'm pretty bad at this game.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you're below Platinum league, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the game. It has nothing to do with the skill level of the people you're up against. It has nothing to do with how fast you are. It has nothing to do with the fact that cheese is more common in the lower leagues. If you constantly produce workers until you're saturated on one base and scout properly, you can do a one-base timing push with any race and get into at least Platinum with minimal theorycrafting or micro.
EPT
. 
The original intent of this, as was the post on reddit, was to get a hold of players like myself to play some games, and I have quite a few now; as well as some channels I wasn't aware of.
