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On March 12 2012 08:41 Adamgm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 07:46 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On March 12 2012 07:29 Adamgm wrote:
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move. The Gheed post proved that -bronze people on average don't know the standard response to a worker rush(A-moving your own workers), and that silver+ generally do Not much else. If I'd never read teamliquid, I wouldn't know the response to a worker rush either, because I have literally seen it once it 200 or so silver/gold games. Based on my experiences every day in bronze league, Gheed has sensationalized his article. It doesn't "prove" anything when you can pick and choose what games are previewed.
Based on my experiences every day in the bronze league, you exhibit the very same symptoms I have described. You are either trolling or so far in denial that you can't see the irony of this thread compared to my experiences. You are doing exactly what I have shown bronze players doing: refusing to accept responsibility for their actions and blaming others for their failures.
You are not in bronze because bronze players have "improved." You are not in bronze because of higher league players smurfing. You are not in bronze because people cheese you. You are in bronze because you are bad. Full stop. Period. End of story.
Until you accept this, until you admit to yourself that you are bad and work to improve that, you will always be bronze.
Let's take a look at your reddit post.
To be clear, I'm not terrible.
False, you are provably terrible. You are in the lowest league possible. By the only metric available to us, your rank, you are terrible.
I know my openings, my moneys always low,
If your money is low in bronze, it's either because you a., don't have enough workers, b., just queued up a ton of stuff, c., built way too much infrastructure, or d., are sitting there on one base focusing entirely on macro while forgetting to scout or do anything else. If you actually macroed well, you would not be in bronze.
I know the other races' opening and scout them, blah blah.
Bullshit. Bronze players don't have "openings." They sit in their base for 20 minutes and then eventually decide to attack.
I even get matched with silver and gold players and beat them - assuming they aren't zerg 
Silver and gold players are bad, too. And if you truly were reliably beating silver or gold players, then you would be in silver or gold. You aren't, so you are in bronze. This is how the ladder works. Bronze is not an accident.
I can upload them [the replays] tonight sure. But I would rather you didn't get back to me on them, this is not what I wanted this thread to be.
So far as I can tell, you never uploaded anything. You are either trolling or so afraid that someone will find fault in your games and shatter your illusion of competency that you refuse to post them. You've basically circumvented the TL strategy forum guidelines by posting a whine thread about how bad you are in the SC2 general forum, instead.
Edit: If you are a bronze league in my camp, just PM me. lol There is no place for us here.
Imagine if you had made a thread entitled "I don't know how to add or subtract, anybody else like me?" Would you expect people to be thrilled that you were wantonly ignorant and somehow proud of it? No, they would try to help you. The only reason you're getting any attention at all is because people on TL are too nice for their own good sometimes.
As someone on reddit said, you "just wanted this to be a circlejerk of people who think they're better then they are," and don't honestly want to improve, which is antithetical to everything most people on TL believe in.
You are not a victim of anything else but your terrible, self-defeating mindset. There are 12-year-olds in master league. There are quadriplegics in diamond league. There is no excuse for being bronze as it exists now other than complete and utter ignorance, which ceases to be an excuse when you find yourself posting on TL or reddit.
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I think its perfectly fine if you want to just enjoy the bronze league. I too don't understand this attitude that you *have* to enjoy this game in a particular way, i.e. by progressing up the ladder like everyone else, especially in the sense of verbally attacking a person because they don't enjoy the same things they do. That's really extreme behaviour, and I wouldn't take it seriously.
If you enjoy playing with a macro/micro level that you're happy with there's nothing wrong with that. Also I think its really cool that you are a physics major! I'm going into the same field  . I think it would be good fun to join some bronze only tournaments, I think there are a few. Some are even televised, and make for really good entertainment (sorry lol). But I'm sure the players could care less how others view them, as long as you enjoy the game. Elitism isn't going to help SC2 grow as an e-sport
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On March 12 2012 07:29 Adamgm wrote:
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
Gheed wouldn't ever get to a lengthy macro game.
Of course, most players in gold and up wouldn't get to a lengthy macro game either vs. those same opponents. That such a game takes place in bronze league is more a sign of good matchmaking than anything else -- two players who play equally slowly may play a macro game against each other, but in three times the wall-clock time.
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@Gheed (too much to quote)
When the game first came out, I spent the first few months in gold league. As people dropped off, I fell into bronze where I have been ever since.
This is evidence to the theory that many have, that the leagues have changed with the number of people playing.
However, for the majority of what you said, - Yep, I agree. I know I'm bad! The point of my reddit post was that I am having fun again thanks to this realization
I even had other people PM me that this particular mindset has helped them have some more fun as well.
Finally, if there was a league of people who couldn't add and subtract as some kind of competition and have a lot of fun doing it, than that would be remotely evident. Sorry though, that's hardly relevant.
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I still cannot comprehend how people can be "hardcore" and be in bronze league. OP posted multiple times in this thread defending his macro and being proud of 50 probes in 15 minutes....
delusions are out of this world with this one
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On March 12 2012 09:33 Gheed wrote:
You are not a victim of anything else but your terrible, self-defeating mindset. There are 12-year-olds in master league. There are quadriplegics in diamond league. There is no excuse for being bronze as it exists now other than complete and utter ignorance, which ceases to be an excuse when you find yourself posting on TL or reddit.
You may feel you're doing the bronze league folks a service by saying this kind of thing, but the truth is that it pretty much just comes off as derisive of people who don't have the talent or insight that you do.
As an example, you go on in your blog at length about people not realizing that the way to beat your strategy is to a-move and click on the ground. My question is, how do people ever learn to do that unless (a) they're told, or (b) they discover it by accident? It's certainly not inherently obvious to someone who's never played the game that it would do anything significantly different than a-moving onto a unit, or right-clicking.
I've certainly read your blog and been amused by it, but you just wind up coming off as someone who's trying to stroke his own ego at other people's expense.
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On March 12 2012 09:48 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 09:33 Gheed wrote:
You are not a victim of anything else but your terrible, self-defeating mindset. There are 12-year-olds in master league. There are quadriplegics in diamond league. There is no excuse for being bronze as it exists now other than complete and utter ignorance, which ceases to be an excuse when you find yourself posting on TL or reddit. You may feel you're doing the bronze league folks a service by saying this kind of thing, but the truth is that it pretty much just comes off as derisive of people who don't have the talent or insight that you do. As an example, you go on in your blog at length about people not realizing that the way to beat your strategy is to a-move and click on the ground. My question is, how do people ever learn to do that unless (a) they're told, or (b) they discover it by accident? It's certainly not inherently obvious to someone who's never played the game that it would do anything significantly different than a-moving onto a unit, or right-clicking. I've certainly read your blog and been amused by it, but you just wind up coming off as someone who's trying to stroke his own ego at other people's expense.
He tells people before the match that he is going to worker rush them and he also tells them exactly how to beat it. These are bronzes that have played hundreds of 1v1 games on ladder. He is as bemused as I am.
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On March 12 2012 09:35 radscorpion9 wrote:
I think its perfectly fine if you want to just enjoy the bronze league. I too don't understand this attitude that you *have* to enjoy this game in a particular way, i.e. by progressing up the ladder like everyone else, especially in the sense of verbally attacking a person because they don't enjoy the same things they do. That's really extreme behaviour, and I wouldn't take it seriously.
Then for what kind of sick, perverted reason would one play a highly competitive game and choose not to progress?
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On March 12 2012 09:50 Micket wrote:
He tells people before the match that he is going to worker rush them and he also tells them exactly how to beat it. These are bronzes that have played hundreds of 1v1 games on ladder. He is as bemused as I am.
From the blogs I've read, he tells people how to beat it only if they ask after the game. If I'm wrong on that, please point it out to me.
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I was bronze when i first got the game in beta and then I pretty much won every game after a friend of mine showed me in general what I needed to do and shot up to the top league available and even now that I barely play 5 games a week I'm still in the upper end of masters and I got into the top 300 in NA at one point when I could play like 20 games a day. Oh and this was on a 2 core PC that would lag like crazy after about 100 pop was reached. So micro was pretty much non existent until I got this new PC.
No streams, No practice partners, No time spent watching replays really, No nothing other than playing and working on what I knew was holding me back.
I honestly can't comprehend how people can be as bad as they are at games.
If you Honestly Play 2 hours of SC2 and watch streams and your still stuck in Bronze your either 1 handed or something is seriously seriously seriously seriously wrong with how you play.
And If your in bronze and you genuinely want to improve hit me up if your a T and ill do my best to help you
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On March 12 2012 09:44 biology]major wrote:
I still cannot comprehend how people can be "hardcore" and be in bronze league. OP posted multiple times in this thread defending his macro and being proud of 50 probes in 15 minutes....
delusions are out of this world with this one
I don't know about the OP but when I play 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 with my bronze buddy he more often than not outproduces diamond players when it comes to workers. But then he manages to die to something like 3 reapers in his base 20 minutes into the game.
Generally speaking bronzies obviously have horrible macro, and their definition of good macro the same, but there are shades of gray. Every bronze player is not the same and their problems can differ.
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On March 12 2012 09:53 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 09:50 Micket wrote:
He tells people before the match that he is going to worker rush them and he also tells them exactly how to beat it. These are bronzes that have played hundreds of 1v1 games on ladder. He is as bemused as I am. From the blogs I've read, he tells people how to beat it only if they ask after the game. If I'm wrong on that, please point it out to me.
You are wrong on that Also, what is the difference between accepting that you are bad in diamond league and having fun with the game versus accepting that you are bad in bronze league and having fun, as OP suggests? You can still enjoy yourself and have no goals or ambitions with progression, except you won't be so neurotic and defensive about being ostracized. The point Gheed is making is not that you should accept your lack of skill, it is that you shouldn't post threads on how you minimize cognitive dissonance about your lack of skill and expect some celebration of it from more than 20% of the respondents in a generally competitive community. From your "there is no place for us here" reaction, I'm just not sure what OP expected.
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On March 12 2012 09:53 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 09:50 Micket wrote:
He tells people before the match that he is going to worker rush them and he also tells them exactly how to beat it. These are bronzes that have played hundreds of 1v1 games on ladder. He is as bemused as I am. From the blogs I've read, he tells people how to beat it only if they ask after the game. If I'm wrong on that, please point it out to me.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=313577
Here you go. He won 28/50 games with this.
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If he's still doing it, why did LuckMachine have to ask him how to beat it in his most recent blog?
On March 12 2012 10:09 AGsc wrote:
The point Gheed is making is not that you should accept your lack of skill, it is that you shouldn't post threads on how you minimize cognitive dissonance about your lack of skill and expect some celebration of it from more than 20% of the respondents in a generally competitive community.
Sure, that may well be his point. My point is that what he does and says comes off as derisive of people who aren't as good as he is. Also, I don't think he's still telling people in advance how to beat worker rushes, otherwise he wouldn't encounter people who ask.
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Firstly, to those who say the leagues aren't getting harder: I am a mid platinum zerg. I had a friend who played during the first few months after release, and was in mid/high diamond. He didn't play for about a year, but then he came back, and was almost immediately demoted to platinum. A few months later, after he had played a few more games, I saw that he was online and decided to play him. (I was high gold at this point.) It felt incredibly easy. Everything he did was completely stupid, and I deflected it without incident.
I have another friend who is currently in platinum, but hasn't played much recently--he was probably promoted to plat about 9 months ago, so his skill level is basically platinum from then. He is significantly worse than 95% of the people I have played recently on ladder.
More relevantly to the thread, my brother is in bronze and you seem sort of like him in a way. He will go into a game being like "ok so I'm going to do a forge fe into a 6 gate blink stalker timing". He then will proceed to make his nexus on about 22, get gas incredibly late, build probes about half the time, always get supply blocked, not make anything out of his gateways, forget to turn them into warpgates, not warp stuff in out of his warpgates, and then aggravate all these problems when he finally does this push as he proceeds to obsessively blink back injured stalkers like he saw on pro streams.
If you just want to have fun in bronze, then that's also fine.
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On March 12 2012 09:52 danielrosca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 09:35 radscorpion9 wrote:
I think its perfectly fine if you want to just enjoy the bronze league. I too don't understand this attitude that you *have* to enjoy this game in a particular way, i.e. by progressing up the ladder like everyone else, especially in the sense of verbally attacking a person because they don't enjoy the same things they do. That's really extreme behaviour, and I wouldn't take it seriously.
Then for what kind of sick, perverted reason would one play a highly competitive game and choose not to progress?
Getting better at SC2 requires seeking out information and structuring practice to deal with things that are problems, not just playing a lot. I can certainly see someone say "hey, I just want to play a lot of games and I don't want to do all that other stuff." Such a person may well wind up in bronze for a very long time.
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So basically Gheed's main contribution is ruining the fun of legitimate players and publicly humiliate them, cherrypicking games with low bronze opponents against which he could only reach a slightly above 50% winrate? And he is being lauded for that? He is actively making people leave the game, and others emulate him. Is this a good thing for esport to make people hate the game? Can't you have respect for fellow players just because they cannot play as well as you do? Is that the SC2 community?
OP was just looking for fellow high bronze players to have fun with.
He never asked for advice (in which case this post would have been relocated to SC2 strategy). He never said that he is a good player or that he wanted to reach a higher league. He just wanted to share his experience with other highly active bronze players so that his bronze fellows get to enjoy the game more. Then came the train of ego-strokers...
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yeah i'm @ 200ish league wins and still in Bronze, even though I have a 90% w/l
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On March 12 2012 08:39 Adamgm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 07:52 xlava wrote:On March 12 2012 07:27 Adamgm wrote:On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote:
This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general:
- Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game
- overmake/ undermake production facility
- think MICRO > MACRO
- think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead:
- keep in check unspent resources
- monitor worker production
- know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken
- improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what? I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both. Either: 1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread. or 2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league. Well, I'm no liar My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol. I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
By 15 minute mark, you should be maxed.
100 food at 15 minute is a joke.
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There is nothing wrong with being in bronze, but if you are there is really no reason to watch day9/review games/any sort of structured practice. These kind of things will have absolutely 0 return in your game until you can macro at a gold/platinum level. That's why people are responding in a manner that might be seen as rude. The fact that he watches day9/streams/replays implies that he wants to get better, and the way he is going about it he never will. If he doesn't care, why watch replays?
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EPT
