On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Either:
1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread.
or
2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
Well, I'm no liar My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol.
I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
By 15 minute mark, you should be maxed. 100 food at 15 minute is a joke.
MMA vs MVP 15mn ~126psi these players are utter joke aren't they~~~
On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Either:
1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread.
or
2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
Well, I'm no liar My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol.
I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
By 15 minute mark, you should be maxed. 100 food at 15 minute is a joke.
On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Either:
1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread.
or
2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
Well, I'm no liar My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol.
I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
By 15 minute mark, you should be maxed. 100 food at 15 minute is a joke.
Post your games pls... Doubt your games are epic/ attack heavy/ multitask heavy.
All the talks and non of the replays sounds like a good way for this thread to progress.
I'll post some when I get back from work. Of course it's not high level play and it is littered with errors, but it's, for the least, quite far from what Mr. Gheed chose to show people. I currently play at high silver low gold level. Basically players must consistently beat me to be able to leave the silver league.
On March 12 2012 11:18 zefreak wrote: There is nothing wrong with being in bronze, but if you are there is really no reason to watch day9/review games/any sort of structured practice. These kind of things will have absolutely 0 return in your game until you can macro at a gold/platinum level.
If someone's in bronze and hasn't been progressing, structured practice is exactly how to learn to macro at a gold/plat level. Specifically, going into a 1v1 custom with no opponent and practicing how fast to max out. It will help.
On March 12 2012 11:18 zefreak wrote: There is nothing wrong with being in bronze, but if you are there is really no reason to watch day9/review games/any sort of structured practice. These kind of things will have absolutely 0 return in your game until you can macro at a gold/platinum level.
If someone's in bronze and hasn't been progressing, structured practice is exactly how to learn to macro at a gold/plat level. Specifically, going into a 1v1 custom with no opponent and practicing how fast to max out. It will help.
Right, I included structured practice when I shouldn't have. What I basically meant is that day9, pro streams, reviewing games etc are not going to help when you are still playing at a bronze level. If you can't beat bronze or silver players, then you aren't going to learn anything via those tools that is currently important. Basic macro is all that matters at that point and you won't learn that except by finding a safe, economic opening and only focus on production and expanding, maxing out on stalkers/marine marauder/roach ling and ignoring all the bells and whistles.
I think it's worth mentioning that the bronze players that Gheed focuses on are the very bottom of the barrel.
The skill discrepancy from low bronze to high bronze is noticeable; high bronze can be indistinguishable from silver, whereas you can always tell low bronze. The lowest of bronze will literally sit and not macro. They can float 5k mins without ever going back under 5k, and the concept of multitask or even basic macro is utterly foreign to them. I've always imagined low bronze to be very young children or people literally playing their first games of sc2 after never having seen it done before or played another RTS.
These are the kinds of people Gheed can beat realiably with a worker rush - indeed, they lose to anything which even resembles a commonly used strat. Also, yes, he's going to cherrypick the best (and by best, I mean worst) games to talk about.
To be honest, I don't think there is anything wrong being bronze. If you like to enjoy the game at ur own pace.. cool. If you want to just dick around and have fun... cool.
If you however open a thread and tell ppl how pro bronzies are at macroing when even the pros don't macro perfectly, don't be surprised to be met with ridicule and derision.
On March 12 2012 12:03 lazyitachi wrote: [...] If you however open a thread and tell ppl how pro bronzies are at macroing when even the pros don't macro perfectly, don't be surprised to be met with ridicule and derision. [...]
Please, quote where in the OP you could read that. You are "ridiculing" people out of your own made up arguments for your own (ego-stroking?) pleasure.
To ease the process let me copy the OP for you.
====
Greetings all,
I recently wrote a thread on reddit looking for fellow bronze level players who have come to accept just that - that they are bronze level players.
I got slammed pretty hard by almost everyone, except for a few who seemed glad I was having more fun enjoying my league instead of getting angry about not progressing.
Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.
So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
The secondary for writing this is that I spent a long time rather frustrated that I was still in bronze, and I wasn't enjoying myself. Perhaps someone else is in this situation... a switch to being OK with your level of play might do what it did for me, and bring more enjoyment to your play time!
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
The Gheed post proved that -bronze people on average don't know the standard response to a worker rush(A-moving your own workers), and that silver+ generally do Not much else. If I'd never read teamliquid, I wouldn't know the response to a worker rush either, because I have literally seen it once it 200 or so silver/gold games.
Based on my experiences every day in bronze league, Gheed has sensationalized his article. It doesn't "prove" anything when you can pick and choose what games are previewed.
Based on my experiences every day in the bronze league, you exhibit the very same symptoms I have described. You are either trolling or so far in denial that you can't see the irony of this thread compared to my experiences. You are doing exactly what I have shown bronze players doing: refusing to accept responsibility for their actions and blaming others for their failures.
You are not in bronze because bronze players have "improved." You are not in bronze because of higher league players smurfing. You are not in bronze because people cheese you. You are in bronze because you are bad. Full stop. Period. End of story.
Until you accept this, until you admit to yourself that you are bad and work to improve that, you will always be bronze.
If your money is low in bronze, it's either because you a., don't have enough workers, b., just queued up a ton of stuff, c., built way too much infrastructure, or d., are sitting there on one base focusing entirely on macro while forgetting to scout or do anything else. If you actually macroed well, you would not be in bronze.
I even get matched with silver and gold players and beat them - assuming they aren't zerg
Silver and gold players are bad, too. And if you truly were reliably beating silver or gold players, then you would be in silver or gold. You aren't, so you are in bronze. This is how the ladder works. Bronze is not an accident.
I can upload them [the replays] tonight sure. But I would rather you didn't get back to me on them, this is not what I wanted this thread to be.
So far as I can tell, you never uploaded anything. You are either trolling or so afraid that someone will find fault in your games and shatter your illusion of competency that you refuse to post them. You've basically circumvented the TL strategy forum guidelines by posting a whine thread about how bad you are in the SC2 general forum, instead.
Edit: If you are a bronze league in my camp, just PM me. lol There is no place for us here.
Imagine if you had made a thread entitled "I don't know how to add or subtract, anybody else like me?" Would you expect people to be thrilled that you were wantonly ignorant and somehow proud of it? No, they would try to help you. The only reason you're getting any attention at all is because people on TL are too nice for their own good sometimes.
As someone on reddit said, you "just wanted this to be a circlejerk of people who think they're better then they are," and don't honestly want to improve, which is antithetical to everything most people on TL believe in.
You are not a victim of anything else but your terrible, self-defeating mindset. There are 12-year-olds in master league. There are quadriplegics in diamond league. There is no excuse for being bronze as it exists now other than complete and utter ignorance, which ceases to be an excuse when you find yourself posting on TL or reddit.
It was a pleasure reading this post! Almost as good as your blogs And I agree!
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
The Gheed post proved that -bronze people on average don't know the standard response to a worker rush(A-moving your own workers), and that silver+ generally do Not much else. If I'd never read teamliquid, I wouldn't know the response to a worker rush either, because I have literally seen it once it 200 or so silver/gold games.
Based on my experiences every day in bronze league, Gheed has sensationalized his article. It doesn't "prove" anything when you can pick and choose what games are previewed.
Based on my experiences every day in the bronze league, you exhibit the very same symptoms I have described. You are either trolling or so far in denial that you can't see the irony of this thread compared to my experiences. You are doing exactly what I have shown bronze players doing: refusing to accept responsibility for their actions and blaming others for their failures.
You are not in bronze because bronze players have "improved." You are not in bronze because of higher league players smurfing. You are not in bronze because people cheese you. You are in bronze because you are bad. Full stop. Period. End of story.
Until you accept this, until you admit to yourself that you are bad and work to improve that, you will always be bronze.
If your money is low in bronze, it's either because you a., don't have enough workers, b., just queued up a ton of stuff, c., built way too much infrastructure, or d., are sitting there on one base focusing entirely on macro while forgetting to scout or do anything else. If you actually macroed well, you would not be in bronze.
I even get matched with silver and gold players and beat them - assuming they aren't zerg
Silver and gold players are bad, too. And if you truly were reliably beating silver or gold players, then you would be in silver or gold. You aren't, so you are in bronze. This is how the ladder works. Bronze is not an accident.
I can upload them [the replays] tonight sure. But I would rather you didn't get back to me on them, this is not what I wanted this thread to be.
So far as I can tell, you never uploaded anything. You are either trolling or so afraid that someone will find fault in your games and shatter your illusion of competency that you refuse to post them. You've basically circumvented the TL strategy forum guidelines by posting a whine thread about how bad you are in the SC2 general forum, instead.
Edit: If you are a bronze league in my camp, just PM me. lol There is no place for us here.
Imagine if you had made a thread entitled "I don't know how to add or subtract, anybody else like me?" Would you expect people to be thrilled that you were wantonly ignorant and somehow proud of it? No, they would try to help you. The only reason you're getting any attention at all is because people on TL are too nice for their own good sometimes.
As someone on reddit said, you "just wanted this to be a circlejerk of people who think they're better then they are," and don't honestly want to improve, which is antithetical to everything most people on TL believe in.
You are not a victim of anything else but your terrible, self-defeating mindset. There are 12-year-olds in master league. There are quadriplegics in diamond league. There is no excuse for being bronze as it exists now other than complete and utter ignorance, which ceases to be an excuse when you find yourself posting on TL or reddit.
Excellent post. I wanted to say most of those things in my post but couldn't bring myself to be so blunt. Look, this is how it is. If you don't know you're bad you won't get better. I remember when I started playing BW more competitively. I jumped in long after ICCUP was created and I got smashed badly every game for literally over 100 games. I had to accept I was terrible compared to the people I was playing against, but that's alright! Just be patient and honest with yourself and you can certainly improve. This is not at all me saying that I'm good. Really, 100s of games at least I got smashed over and over. But in the long run you do reap the benefits of playing and doing your best to learn.
ive always been in the highest league (not counting grandmaster) possible since i got the game in late beta and i dont get how you can actually play each day and still joke around in bronze.
i mean i got those friend that are sooo horrible. they dont get a single timing and their macro is like non-existent, but even they reached silver.
but i guess its okay if its fun for you as thats the reason you bought this game.
The notion that "basic macro" gets you out of bronze is laughable. It might have been true a year or two ago, when there were noobs still flocking into this game. I'm currently in gold and I see no readily noticeable difference in my gameplay, compared to the time I was in high bronze nor do I see significant difference in the gameplay of my opponents. They're better for certain, but the differences are more subtle, because they're doing the exact same things the bronzies did, except they somehow do them better. I certainly didn't get out of bronze because I've learned to "make drones and spend minerals". I got into silver because I subconciously refined my gameplay, by playing more.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
in 4v4 whenever i face a plat or below person, they never get upgrades past 1/1 and i proceed to faceroll 2-3 of them with 3/3/3 stalker 20 mins in
On March 12 2012 13:29 TacticalBadger wrote: The notion that "basic macro" gets you out of bronze is laughable. It might have been true a year or two ago, when there were noobs still flocking into this game. I'm currently in gold and I see no readily noticeable difference in my gameplay, compared to the time I was in high bronze nor do I see significant difference in the gameplay of my opponents. They're better for certain, but the differences are more subtle, because they're doing the exact same things the bronzies did, except they somehow do them better. I certainly didn't get out of bronze because I've learned to "make drones and spend minerals". I got into silver because I subconciously refined my gameplay, by playing more.
Really? Because I just got into gold with basic macro, and this was about 2 weeks ago. Bronze is just as bad as it used to be, and silver is pretty bad too..
Ridiculous troll post. Not troll post, per say, but rather troll responses.
Lets look at the "facts" -my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases -Well, I spent a good year playing pretty hardcore, with guidance from diamond players (mostly) -In most of my games I get to 3 base (as protoss) - I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both(games) -I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
I'm coaching a player who makes 40-50 workers a game, rarely takes a 3rd base, and almost always floats 1k minerals sometime before the 12:00 mark. He almost never has enough production facilities, max queing on barracks multiple times a game... He's in silver.
Something's obviously not right, and the fact that you refuse to post a rep makes you look like a horrific liar, or someone who's too stubborn to admit they don't play good games consistently.
I'm completely convinced any player can make it high diamond/masters if they want to improve badly enough. Its painful and requires a huge amount of repetition and learning... But its doable.
If anyone wants help or anything from a low master newb you can PM me.... I love helping players.
EPT
My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol.
