EPTLadder flaws when race switching - Page 12
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xtruder
Afghanistan135 Posts
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On April 16 2012 10:52 Zephos wrote: I don't understand what the big deal is. Why not just play all three races on the same account? If you play multiple races equally your skill should be pretty much the same with all, and if you don't play them equally then you won't be playing offrace frequently enough to offset your rank by much. I ladder as terran from time to time and so far it hasn't even made a dent in my ranking. And even if it had, what would I care? Ladder points don't matter, and even if they did, I could easily get them back just by playing onrace again. tl;dr: Just ladder offrace anyway. It won't cost you anything. Seems like you do understand exactly what the big deal is, but you choose to assign a "shrug, who cares" attitude to it. Well... I think many people care a lot more than you do. I'm mid-masters with zerg, I've spent many hours improving my game to achieve this skill level. If I want to start playing terran or protoss on ladder (where I'd be plat or low diamond at best), here is what I have to do: 1) waste hours starting and leaving games to tank my MMR until I get demoted to plat 2) be unable to play competitive games with my main race during the time I'm playing T or P 3) when I eventually want to play my main race again, I have to give up playing T or P entirely, and then waste hours farming wins against inferior opponents until I get repromoted to masters I'm sorry, but it's a little bit of a big deal that I have to waste many hours of my life to manipulate a broken system just because I want to try a different race. It would be extremely simple and easy to allow me to switch back and forth between Z and T with no time wasted and no extra effort required. Instead the current system requires choosing only one race at a time, and wasting many hours to make the change. This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it? | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On April 16 2012 09:57 hoby2000 wrote: OPs like this are merely a result of a misunderstanding of the point of ladder. The point of ladder is not to have an official ranking system we can all go by to say who's the best, but merely a way of representing one's own rank and relative skill level to the rest of the players involved in the same system. The difference between these two ideas is that on one hand you have the feeling that your rank means something in the SC2 community, and on the other you have the relative value of your skill when compared on a mass scale - meaning that the point of the ladder is to compare one's former self to one's current self to gain an understanding if you're moving in the right direction or not when it comes to making certain choices in the game. Um, no. The point of the ladder is match you up against opponents of the same skill level as yourself, so that good competitive games are had by all. If you have a high MMR and switch to another race where your MMR would be low, the ladder fails at its purpose. Hence the problem. | ||
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Grackula
133 Posts
On April 16 2012 10:57 MonkSEA wrote: His point was not playing them simultaneously not anything to do with more character slots. I agree with Nony, you got what you paid for. Entitled egotistical kids expect more since they're spoilt little shits. But you're still going to buy expansions even after you've eaten the corporations shit, which will encourage them to threat their customers even more like a wallet for the least amount of work possible. I can hardly believe your post is serious This goes for all the other posts who want to give money to blizzard for things they can do in a few hours of work with 2 devs | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:04 Chocobo wrote: This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it? If Blizzard allows different race rankings three players could play on the same account. What a dumb business decision by them if they did that. Simply put if it really bothers you just play terran or protoss until you get demoted - you'll have the chance to play against much better players and see where your weaknesses are much more quickly. I'm not a believer in huge race discrepancies, unless your skill is derived from large cheese strats or non-standard play. I played Zerg all the way to high Masters with no past RTS experience (took thousands of games) - when I played Terran and Protoss (on my second account) I got to low Masters immediately just through natural game mechanics. The level of play shouldn't be that significantly different. You'll have to learn the timings, basic BOs, etc. - but the biggest parts of your game (game sense, macro) shouldn't leave. | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On April 16 2012 09:10 Jojo131 wrote: Just saying, I'd probably troll people with my Terran if I had a separate ranking I could just leave at bronze. I'm sure others would too. I say its a good thing what we have right now. At least this way I'd be penalized by surrendering games all day by tanking my MMR, thats a pretty good disincentive. In the end the ladder sorts itself out. If you're new to a race, you wont be good at it so expect to lose a lot before you get the hang of it. There's enough hand-holding as it is with Blizzard games in general, I think some people should just meet them halfway by putting in the time. Then you would stay at Bronze. I see no problem with that, it would only make the lowest level of the ladder a bit more troll-infested than it already as. Contrast that with, for ex., Diamond-level Zergs absolutely terrorizing everyone from Bronze to Diamond when learning a new race after deliberately tanking their ELO to bottom bronze, or switch from that "learning" race back to Zerg. Alternatively, the ability of people to raise their skillcap with another race and in the process raise their investment in and knowledge of the game is only a plus for Blizzard. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:11 Snaphoo wrote: Alternatively, the ability of people to raise their skillcap with another race and in the process raise their investment in and knowledge of the game is only a plus for Blizzard. And when people start sharing accounts and Blizzard loses revenue, it's a minus for Blizzard. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
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iMPhantom
Canada2 Posts
Grohg I think he was originally warned for an all caps lock title before a mod changed it. I don't think you should have a ranking for each race. Is each ladder just the ladder of the best t/z/p? You end up with a complicated system that dilutes the skill rankings of each subsequent ladder. I wouldn't be opposed to being able to start fresh every so often (every 3 seasons or so) but this is even pushing it. Play games with whatever race you want...you need to be demoted if you want to switch races and you aren't at the same skill level as your previous race. After a month of retraining yourself, you should be back to where you were before. Thanks for the response and your probably right on that account but i don't THINK you understood the overall sense i presume he was going for which is to say different skill rating's for your different races protoss-diamond zerg-gold terran-silver I believe your thinking matchmaking is an indefinite messure of your skill which i BELIEVE its not' just a way to get pared with people close to what your skill level is so it would function at variable's without causing the problem your thinking of. I also believe it adds more playability to the game and replay value which isn't taken into account on the sale's side of things this type of feature in my OPINION could even be used by low level players to increase the experience of the game -iMPhantom-again maybe i'm wrong about sales and what not although as a coder and someone who's extremely familiar with servers and database mysql ect this really wouldn't take much more coding then it does to host profile pictures and there are several coding methods to split up memory usage | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:10 FairForever wrote: If Blizzard allows different race rankings three players could play on the same account. What a dumb business decision by them if they did that. People can share logins and pws right now if they want to. What's your point? You could have a ladder account for each race in BW and in other RTS games. Were they all ruined by it? Simply put if it really bothers you just play terran or protoss until you get demoted - you'll have the chance to play against much better players and see where your weaknesses are much more quickly. "If it really bothers you to waste hours of your time, just waste hours of your time. Then you won't have to waste them anymore!" I'm not a believer in huge race discrepancies... The level of play shouldn't be that significantly different. You'll have to learn the timings, basic BOs, etc. - but the biggest parts of your game (game sense, macro) shouldn't leave. Huge discrepancies, no. As a masters zerg I'm not going to be a clueless newbie stuck in bronze league as Terran. But there's still a significant difference between platinum and mid masters, and it requires hours of timewasting to drop down the ladder and even more to climb back up it. Why do you feel that this timewasting is necessary? Why do you feel that it would harm the ladder to function like BW or other RTS ladders? There's just no good reason. The only reason ever given is "fuck you, stop whining and deal with it, no one cares about your problems". | ||
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Grackula
133 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:13 FairForever wrote: And when people start sharing accounts and Blizzard loses revenue, it's a minus for Blizzard. That's about as convienient as sharing your account with two other people of your skill level | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:17 Chocobo wrote: People can share logins and pws right now if they want to. What's your point? You could have a ladder account for each race in BW and in other RTS games. Were they all ruined by it? If I share an account right now, my ladder ranking gets ruined. If I play zerg, and share with a terran and protoss player(s), it doesn't. See the issue? "If it really bothers you to waste hours of your time, just waste hours of your time. Then you won't have to waste them anymore!" Huge discrepancies, no. As a masters zerg I'm not going to be a clueless newbie stuck in bronze league as Terran. But there's still a significant difference between platinum and mid masters, and it requires hours of timewasting to drop down the ladder and even more to climb back up it. Why do you feel that this timewasting is necessary? Why do you feel that it would harm the ladder to function like BW or other RTS ladders? There's just no good reason. The only reason ever given is "fuck you, stop whining and deal with it, no one cares about your problems". This may sound crazy but not everyone appreciated the fact of players having 20 accounts in WC3 and screwing around. What advantage does it give to Blizzard to allow multiple accounts? It makes no business sense. Stop feeling entitled to get whatever you want. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:19 Grackula wrote: That's about as convienient as sharing your account with two other people of your skill level Not really - you don't think people would do it? Slight difference - if you share your account with people at your skill level, well, you're going to have MMR issues. You don't have that with three separate MMRs. | ||
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Grackula
133 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:20 FairForever wrote: Not really - you don't think people would do it? Slight difference - if you share your account with people at your skill level, well, you're going to have MMR issues. You don't have that with three separate MMRs. If the people are of your skill they are of your MMR. The point is sharing an account with 2 people is so inconvienient only people who can't affort the game anyway would go through that much just to play a couple of games till it's the other guys turn to play | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
1)ladder will lose its competitiveness feel 2)the 2nd solution would be abused to hell my solution: play customs, get good (you can find partners here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328110) and it is pretty to win at low level (until diamond its 80% of mechanics that win you the game) | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:19 FairForever wrote: If I share an account right now, my ladder ranking gets ruined. If I play zerg, and share with a terran and protoss player(s), it doesn't. See the issue? No, I don't. What does the race of the person you share an account with matter? Why do you assume everyone is part of a group of 3 different race players who all play at different times and would share accounts to save money? That would be an extremely rare occurrance. What advantage does it give to Blizzard to allow multiple accounts? It makes no business sense. Stop feeling entitled to get whatever you want. Why is your default position "whatever Blizzard originally set up is correct, and if you would prefer something different then it's a problem with you"? Why do you seem to only consider what's good for Blizzard, and not for the game? This hardcore pro-company standpoint from consumers always confuses me. Anyway, to answer your question... Blizzard wants a large population of active players on the ladder, in particular for the reason of having a large player base to sell expansions to. It benefits Blizzard to retain more players by offering a more playable game with more accessible races to explore (and it also makes players very happy and more ready to buy HoTS). Somehow you seem to assume it would be nothing but negative to Blizzard, and they'd instantly lose 2/3 of their sales because everyone would share accounts. I'm sorry but that's not a very realistic or sensible view. | ||
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Zephos
United States71 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:04 Chocobo wrote: Seems like you do understand exactly what the big deal is, but you choose to assign a "shrug, who cares" attitude to it. Well... I think many people care a lot more than you do. I'm mid-masters with zerg, I've spent many hours improving my game to achieve this skill level. If I want to start playing terran or protoss on ladder (where I'd be plat or low diamond at best), here is what I have to do: 1) waste hours starting and leaving games to tank my MMR until I get demoted to plat 2) be unable to play competitive games with my main race during the time I'm playing T or P 3) when I eventually want to play my main race again, I have to give up playing T or P entirely, and then waste hours farming wins against inferior opponents until I get repromoted to masters I'm sorry, but it's a little bit of a big deal that I have to waste many hours of my life to manipulate a broken system just because I want to try a different race. It would be extremely simple and easy to allow me to switch back and forth between Z and T with no time wasted and no extra effort required. Instead the current system requires choosing only one race at a time, and wasting many hours to make the change. This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it? You wouldn't have to go to the trouble of all of this. First of all, why tank your MMR? Just play offrace with your current MMR and you will be able to face opponents of about the right skill. It's true, they will be a little better than you. But your mechanics from playing zerg should translate well enough that you still have a decent shot at beating your opponent. If not, you probably don't deserve the rank you have since you would've had to play abusively to get there without sufficient mechanics. Also, you say that you would need to "waste hours farming" to get back to your previous rank. In making this statement, you have underestimated just how good blizzard's matchmaking system is. Allow me an anecdote to explain. Usually I play the game for the sake of having fun. But there was a period in which I was so frustrated with my life that I took to the game as a refuge instead. My performance suffered as a result, and I went on a losing streak. A big losing streak. I won't go into exactly how prodigious this streak was, but suffice it to say that at the start I was top 8 masters, and by the end I was consistently playing diamonds. I was teetering on the edge of demotion (Which I'm actually grateful for, because it afforded me a game with Crota). Well, I stopped playing starcraft until I was ready to play the game for the right reasons. Do you know how long it took me to get back to where I was? An hour. An hour and a half at most. My rank had decreased, but my skill had not. I didn't even need to cheese. That's how quick and easy it was to win back what I had lost. The matchmaking system is very good at knowing how skilled you are. The only reason it took you so long to reach mid masters is because you had to acquire the skill to do so. When you already have the skill, the process is quite expedient. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:35 Corsica wrote: two problems: 1)ladder will lose its competitiveness feel 2)the 2nd solution would be abused to hell Why would the ladder lose its competitive feel? Everyone would be competing to the best of their ability with various races. Where's the drawback? What exactly do you think would be abused? This really feels like a debate against a religious person about why homosexuality is evil. People seem to want to hold the "things are fine the way they are" position and will search for any obscure reason to justify it. Blizzard could make millions of players happy, retain a larger active player base and sell more expansions... but no, they can't do it because 5 or 10 broke friends might try to share an account. Assuming they play all different races of course. Oh yeah, and they all have to play at different times of the day. Give me a break. | ||
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Kurast
Australia35 Posts
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:57 Zephos wrote: You wouldn't have to go to the trouble of all of this. First of all, why tank your MMR? Just play offrace with your current MMR and you will be able to face opponents of about the right skill. It's true, they will be a little better than you. But your mechanics from playing zerg should translate well enough that you still have a decent shot at beating your opponent. If not, you probably don't deserve the rank you have since you would've had to play abusively to get there without sufficient mechanics. Sorry, that just isn't how it works. I am not good with protoss. I vaguely understand how to 4 gate, but don't know any builds beyond that. It is absolutely pointless for me to play against zergs who can defend 4gates with ease and will hit 200 supply in 12 minutes if I leave them alone. I don't really play terran at all. The last time I tried, I used a safe 2 rax into factory with bunker build, then floated out an expo. By the time I got my second base mining, I was at 27 workers to the zerg's 52 and he was taking a third. By the time I put together an army to go pressure him, his army was twice my size. There is nothing to be learned from one-sided games like these. I'm not getting to practice my drops or unit control or macro if the game is over by the 10 minute mark. I might as well be a bronze player getting baneling busted by July, or learning basketball by playing 1 on 1 against Kobe Bryant. Getting my face smashed into the pavement teaches me nothing. Learning is done by playing against equal skill level opponents. Also, you say that you would need to "waste hours farming" to get back to your previous rank. In making this statement, you have underestimated just how good blizzard's matchmaking system is. Allow me an anecdote to explain. at the start I was top 8 masters, and by the end I was consistently playing diamonds. I was teetering on the edge of demotion (Which I'm actually grateful for, because it afforded me a game with Crota). Well, I stopped playing starcraft until I was ready to play the game for the right reasons. Do you know how long it took me to get back to where I was? An hour. An hour and a half at most. So it took you 90 minutes go from low masters to mid masters. Is this supposed to be an argument against me? Clearly it would take significantly longer than this to go from platinum to mid masters, 2-3 hours at the very least. That's a significant amount of timewasting and extra effort that serves no purpose other than to make me more likely to quit playing Starcraft 2 in the long run. How anyone can call this a good thing is beyond me. | ||
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