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The ladder is essential for a competitive multiplayer game like StarCraft II but some of its promise is unrealized. Problems arise when an experienced player wants to switch races or simply experiment.
A Platinum Terran player, LiquidMule, wants to expand his horizons by experimenting with Zerg. His skill with Zerg is merely Silver level but Blizzard continues to pair him with high ranking players. Since LiquidMule has a lot of experience, it takes dozens of crushing losses for his ladder opposition to adjust to his level. Getting an accurate ladder ranking with the new race takes both a lot of figurative tears and wasted time. Until then, his opponents cruise to victory and get inflated ratings. Similarly, if LiquidMule suddenly decides to play Terran again, his Silver opponents will be a eaten alive by someone that's supposedly an even match. Both of these cases hurt the integrity of the rating system and lead to frustration for both sides.
In fact, some players ease the pain by just auto-surrendering until they get into Bronze or Silver to try a new race. After all, playing a bunch of Diamond and Platinum players while barely knowing how to spawn larva on time isn't going to teach you much about the game. It would be akin to a tennis novice playing with Roger Federer. The game would consist of Federer hitting decisive shots nearly every time. The novice would be lucky to even touch the ball outside of his own serve. Clearly this isn't how one learns to play tennis and it's also not how one should learn a new race. That some would resort to auto-surrendering countless games just highlights the problem.
Besides the practical problems, for those who love StarCraft II and eagerly follows its developments, the thought of having a hard earned ranking marred by race switching is enough to dissuade many from trying. With Blizzard's encouragement, eSports have blossomed and the competitive scene relies on Blizzard's ranking system. Even the forums show this by dismissing the opinions of weaker players, rightly or wrongly. Players invest a great deal of effort at getting better and probably even invest emotionally too because of the prestige associated with some levels. Thus, the most natural solution is to buy the game game again or fail to explore its other races in full. StarCraft II is first and foremost, a multiplayer game and one shouldn't have to buy it three times to get everything out of it. While it may line Blizzard's coffers, it's logically indefensible and clearly not a realistic solution.
However, there are many simple and elegant solutions. Ladder rankings by race selection would neatly solve the issue. Having the option to reset one's ladder four times would also be easy enough. It's not rocket science and I'd be shocked if Blizzard didn't anticipate everything from the start. Of course, without an uproar from customers, why should Blizzard pass on the chance that its most dedicated fans will buy the game more than once? I hope Blizzard will prove my cynicism wrong by fixing this situation. After trying and failing to get a ladder reset from support, I'm not particularly optimistic
TL;DR: The Ladder doesn't adjust for experience with individual races and it's annoying as hell.
Crossposted here.
User was warned for this post
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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I agree, there's really no reason for why there isn't a separate laddering ranking for each race. I guess bnet 2.0 is so good we don't need it.
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Eh, I don't see the problem with a single ladder. Your overall skill is your overall skill, and if you want to race switch, why not practice with it in customs before you ladder with it?
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the technology isnt there yet
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This has been a problem that people have been asking for for a long time, not much you can do except give feed back to Blizzard and just wait. If you want to race switch and still play ladder then yeah people need to be aware of the fact that you'll still be playing as if you were playing with your better race. Sucks? Yeah, but not much can be done.
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not enough competitive people switch races for such a ladder ranking system to be necessary.
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Basically the system punishes for trying new things. Also if you reached dia/plat long ago, but your skill has dropped leagues, but haven't actually got demoted the system punishes you for starting to practise and getting your skill back by demoting you. The system rewards inactivity and monotonious play.
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United States97276 Posts
The same thing happened with me when I decided to start playing protoss but you just have to kind of tough it out. Another thing is you should have pretty strong game knowledge from your time with the first race and you can just look up some build orders to start out. Also practicing with friends in custom games helps you learn things especially if you have friends that know what they are doing. Once you get the hang of it in a couple of custom games you can start laddering
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On February 27 2012 05:55 Zennith wrote:
Eh, I don't see the problem with a single ladder. Your overall skill is your overall skill, and if you want to race switch, why not practice with it in customs before you ladder with it?
I think the OP was clear on what the problem was. You say overall skill is overall skill. Are you suggesting that most people are equally skilled with the 3 races? It wouldn't be that hard to give everyone 4(t,p,z,r) different ratings. There's a different rating for 2v2 so why not for the different races.
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This feature is planned in cooperation with a detailed stats window that shows your win&loss ratio of every race once Legacy of the Void gets released (or maybe in a patch approximately 1-3 years after Legacy of the Void is released). But I'M SURE they are working on it all the time, it's just not ready yet.
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I really see your point, and I agree but they won't change anything because it will cost money. Furthermore, you shouldn't be concerned about ladder. I've often switched between races and purposely lost 50 games in a row to be in an adequate ladder position.
Btw, I wouldn't recommend custom games if you want to switch, since almost nobody plays customs for real. I won against Master players when I offraced Zerg at Platinum level.
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Sorry for the title guys. I copied it from the other forum and it was strangely all caps there.
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On February 27 2012 06:02 Bommes wrote:
This feature is planned in cooperation with a detailed stats window that shows your win&loss ratio of every race once Legacy of the Void gets released (or maybe in a patch approximately 1-3 years after Legacy of the Void is released). But they are working on it all the time, its just not ready yet.
I actually think Blizz plans on releasing those key features with the furutre expansions. Its so simple changes and they would make the game so much better. Save function for custom games when 1 player drops, seperate ladder for each race, good custom-map system, better friend & chat systems, etc. At least i hope this will be in the game when HotS gets released.
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Well out of everything B.Net needs to fix, this is one of the last things I am worried about! I do wish this would happen though, luckily I have a few friends who only play 2v2's and rarely, so I can use there accounts, I have my main as toss, one as gold zerg and one as gold terran, so I can bounce around.
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Blizzard's response:
Hello Alex,
It is good to hear that you have made a post regarding this issue. At this point since customer service can not facilitate your request you will need to find fellow players who feel the same way. If you can get enough constructive feedback on this post it hopefully will catch the eye of our development team and get you a response.
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I've also wondered this problem and it would be much appreciated if Blizzard would do something about this.
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On February 27 2012 06:01 Shellshock1122 wrote:
The same thing happened with me when I decided to start playing protoss but you just have to kind of tough it out. Another thing is you should have pretty strong game knowledge from your time with the first race and you can just look up some build orders to start out. Also practicing with friends in custom games helps you learn things especially if you have friends that know what they are doing. Once you get the hang of it in a couple of custom games you can start laddering
it would be nice to have different leagues for different races but in the meantime i agree with shellshock: just play custom until you have your b/o's down; your mechanics should be comparable to your main race once you learn b/o's and unit comps.
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On February 27 2012 06:00 Snettik wrote:
Basically the system punishes for trying new things. Also if you reached dia/plat long ago, but your skill has dropped leagues, but haven't actually got demoted the system punishes you for starting to practise and getting your skill back by demoting you. The system rewards inactivity and monotonious play.
So what should the system do? Leave you in a league above your level to avoid 'punishing' you? No, of course not, that's silly. The system demotes you....because it is placing you in the proper league for your skill level. You said it yourself, "...but your skill has dropped leagues..." Not sure the problem you see here.
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On February 27 2012 06:10 Mutown wrote:Blizzard's response: Show nested quote +Hello Alex,
It is good to hear that you have made a post regarding this issue. At this point since customer service can not facilitate your request you will need to find fellow players who feel the same way. If you can get enough constructive feedback on this post it hopefully will catch the eye of our development team and get you a response.
LOL Hopefully it will catch the eye...? Great staff over at blizzard, can't even talk between themselves apparently.
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On February 27 2012 06:18 mrafaeldie12 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 06:10 Mutown wrote:Blizzard's response: Hello Alex,
It is good to hear that you have made a post regarding this issue. At this point since customer service can not facilitate your request you will need to find fellow players who feel the same way. If you can get enough constructive feedback on this post it hopefully will catch the eye of our development team and get you a response.
LOL Hopefully it will catch the eye...? Great staff over at blizzard, can't even talk between themselves apparently.
maybe you should try calling the correct department, or directing your inquiry to the correct department rather than calling a low level employee in the wrong department who could give a shit about the problem.
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For low levels, the difference in skill between your races is probably smaller than you think. The main time this problem is an issue is a Masters player of Race X who wants to switch to race Y. Below masters, the difference in skill can be made up fairly quickly on a new race and shouldn't hurt your rating too much.
Blizzard doesn't even NEED to make three different ratings, they just need to give you X number of placement matches when you race switch and start from there.
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Ha, I just made a blog complaining about a different aspect of the same problem. You can read it here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=315788
I agree completely that the ladder system is designed without any intelligent decision making. Blizzard truly has their heads so far up their own asses that they can't see anything but the shit they produce. If they'd simply take two seconds to look at the community they'd have fixed up so much of this game that should've been taken care of in Beta.
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if we could just do several id'S from one account would be awesome but that would mean less sold copys just like u cant pülay cross server with one account what i also find extremly sad would love to try out NA but honestly im not gonna buy a 2nd version of sc2!
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On February 27 2012 05:53 Zombo Joe wrote:
I agree, there's really no reason for why there isn't a separate laddering ranking for each race. I guess bnet 2.0 is so good we don't need it.
" The technology is not there yet. "
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On February 27 2012 06:23 R3DT1D3 wrote:
For low levels, the difference in skill between your races is probably smaller than you think. The main time this problem is an issue is a Masters player of Race X who wants to switch to race Y. Below masters, the difference in skill can be made up fairly quickly on a new race and shouldn't hurt your rating too much.
Can't really agree with this.
Although since I've been in masters I can't really tell the difference between a silver and a platinum level player, the differences are still there.
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On February 27 2012 05:56 Spicy_Curry wrote:
the technology isnt there yet
Came here to post this, if people haven't realized yet I will make this extremely clear. Blizzard just simply doesn't care what you want, they like having the model that if you want a separate ladder ranking you need to buy the game again. Blizzard has little to no interest in catering to communities needs in battlenet.
I usually wouldn't be so pessimistic on the matter but this has been talked to death in a billion threads. Blizzard just simply isn't going to do it.
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If you want to race switch, I don't understand why you'd want to play vs worse people. Sure you might get that win vs a silver player with your offrace, but you'd learn more from losing to that plat player. Makes no sense why you'd have to tank your rating before learning a new race.
Otherwise, yeah I'd agree that it would be nice to have 3 separate ratings.
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Personally I think being put into a separate division per race would be a perfect solution. I recently wanted to try out the other two races and after about a day or two of experimentation (ie losing) when I switched back to my main race I was paired with people in a lower division than mine. Really does discourage getting a more in depth understanding of the game.
BUT Blizzard is a "for profit" company so it's not all that unreasonable to assume that they will not make any changes that would remove the chance for customers to buy more than one copy of the game.
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If there was a different place in the ranking system for each player playing each of the races, you'd suddenly have divisions full of players that aren't even playing as the race they are ranked as.
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This is such a minor issue though? okay, so somebody on the ladder gets ONE free win; it's not going to affect their ranking much, and it's not like their MMR is going to put them in an unwinnable position for a long period of time. Also, as Liquid`Mule, he probably will learn more playing higher players than demoting himself to bronze and trying to work back up.
In season 3, I switched from Protoss (master) to Terran. I practised in custom games, and occasionally played on my a ladder account to highlight significant weaknesses in my play. After 2 weeks or so, I was once again at a master level, and was able to play on my account again.
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heard about custom games to get accustomed to a race ? After playing one race over a longer period, i do some customs to get into the race again.
I personally didn't have issues on ladder with race switching. As your mmr falls at light speed or goes up at light speed if you lose win to often.
Allowing people to reset their ladder ranking means alot of roflstomping, so i prefer this setup denying this. But yeah if you want to get their attention one email every weak, if multiple people do it, they might discuss it. But the result will be, allowing any resets in the ladder rank would hurt the lower leagues as high masters would plow through them regularly. But you could point out the issue that people leave games instantly to get back into bronze, which is also an issue.
But even on masterlevel i had no problem doing a cold switch back to all 3 (not random)races after i played zerg for a longer period for study reason. Winrate went down to 40 for around 10 games.
So just try it, playing against better people helps your play with a new race. Coming back should also be no issue as you can slowly get back into the race, playing against weaker opponents.
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There is not really a reason to get different ranks with different races. The good solution would be to let people just make another account (like we had that in an older game which is popular on this site too).
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Er, isn't this a rather old discussion?
There's nothing here that I haven't heard loads of times before.
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This has been brought up a few times since the beta, I think the reason they haven't put it in is just to sell a few more copies to people who don't want to F around with loosing and gaining ladder rank before productive off-race practice can begin.
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On February 27 2012 06:14 Scisyhp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 06:00 Snettik wrote:
Basically the system punishes for trying new things. Also if you reached dia/plat long ago, but your skill has dropped leagues, but haven't actually got demoted the system punishes you for starting to practise and getting your skill back by demoting you. The system rewards inactivity and monotonious play. So what should the system do? Leave you in a league above your level to avoid 'punishing' you? No, of course not, that's silly. The system demotes you....because it is placing you in the proper league for your skill level. You said it yourself, "...but your skill has dropped leagues..." Not sure the problem you see here.
I mean that the ladder system should encourage activity and punish heavily for inactivity. For example your league placement will reset if you have played less than 60 games on the season so people would automatically get to the league they deserve be in which also means that if they practise hard they will be rewarded with a promote (although it might be a promote to a lower league he originally was in, but I still think that would feel more rewarding than getting demoted for practising).
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On February 27 2012 06:49 Mr Showtime wrote:
If there was a different place in the ranking system for each player playing each of the races, you'd suddenly have divisions full of players that aren't even playing as the race they are ranked as.
Oh no the arbitrary divisions, seriously who cares? The pros of separate rankings far outweigh the cons.
The real solution is allowing more than one account on the same license but that is a pipe dream.
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Makes me miss WC3's Bnet.
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the technology isnt there yet
or blizzard are lazy as usually. good point you bring up, 1+
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As someone that started as Protoss and switched to Random, this wasn't an issue for me. I just played some team games to acclimate to the two other races, until I was comfortable with the race-specific mechanics. After that, it was just learning solid openings, basic build orders, and timings.
The mechanics you build transfer over from race to race. I was diamond (pre-Masters era) when I made the switch to Random, and I wasn't flailing to learn Zerg and Terran. When I finally learned the other two races, it actually helped improve my overall game by a large margin. Zerg improved my macro with the other two races. Terran improved my micro and unit control, overall.
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well if you are like me then your NA SC2 when logging in says SC2-I and SC2-II. They should expand this by giving us a SC2-III as well and actually making this a functional option for people to play different races. 1 account, and you get 3 different ladder profiles, I don't see how it could be that difficult. Also since it's 1 account there isn't a risk of sharing an account among free loaders since only 1 can be logged in at a time.
But this has been discussed to death, probably a reason why you got a warning (OP), use the search function next time.
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In all honesty, it just makes smurfing wayyyyy too easy, and Blizzard doesn't want that. I bet most people won't even play offraces to "get good" at them and subtly tank them to bronze levels where they can pick on the genuine nublets of the game.
I mean, hell I would totally do something like that.
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Indeed, i plan on switching from Protoss to Random when i get back into starcraft this summer, my current ranking is a diamond so i expect to get heavily demoted into like platinum or something lol.
It would be nice to have a separate no rank ladder, of course someone could say "Play Customs" but in all honesty those games a a complete coin flip. I don't know what to expect haha
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On February 27 2012 05:56 Spicy_Curry wrote:
the technology isnt there yet
Why do I hear this everywhere now? Is it something a pro said or something?
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Its so easy blizzard. Please do this. It would really encourage me to play the other races and I think it would help everyone increase their skill in the offrace. This would add so much to the game and sounds so easy to impliment.
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On February 27 2012 07:03 Lunchador wrote:
In all honesty, it just makes smurfing wayyyyy too easy, and Blizzard doesn't want that. I bet most people won't even play offraces to "get good" at them and subtly tank them to bronze levels where they can pick on the genuine nublets of the game.
I mean, hell I would totally do something like that.
er.... why?
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On February 27 2012 07:09 Fealthas wrote:Why do I hear this everywhere now? Is it something a pro said or something?
Totalbiscuit said it about LAN mockingly when someone got dropped from a game at ASUS ROG.
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If blizz gave us separate ladder rankings for each race it would cause way too much smurfing and it would mess with the race balance and ladder rankings too much. It's pretty obvious if you just think about it. It would be awesome for an individual to have this but applied to the millions of starcraft players it would cause a virtual collapse of accurate statistics and rankings at every level of play. I know the OP won't read this thread since he also posted on the official forums but if he did my best advice would be to do custom games with friends/practice partners. It's not that hard finding people of the same skill level that want to give you an honest game.
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If you are making the choice to play worse at this game, then you are making the choice to lose a lot until you reach an accurate ranking. Blizzard has nothing to do with how good you happen to be at points in time. Creating 4 times as many ranking profiles for each player is an absurd solution.
I switched to random, I lost a bunch. It wasn't a big deal. If losing really bothers you that much, then do something stupid like 6pool a bunch of games to lose without getting your ego hurt.
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On February 27 2012 07:16 Maxd11 wrote:
If blizz gave us separate ladder rankings for each race it would cause way too much smurfing and it would mess with the race balance and ladder rankings too much. It's pretty obvious if you just think about it. It would be awesome for an individual to have this but applied to the millions of starcraft players it would cause a virtual collapse of accurate statistics and rankings at every level of play. I know the OP won't read this thread since he also posted on the official forums but if he did my best advice would be to do custom games with friends/practice partners. It's not that hard finding people of the same skill level that want to give you an honest game.
I am reading the thread and I discussed some of your suggestions about custom games/practice partners here.
I don't know why smurfing would necessarily be a bigger problem. After a few placement matches, someone performing at a higher level would quickly move up. If he wants to be bronze forever, he'd at least be forced to lose a lot of games too. In any case, I'm sure the smart guys here and at Blizzard can find a way to balance smurfing with a more flexible system.
I actually think it would be more accurate. If someone's a Diamond Terran and Gold as Toss with an equal split, he'd probably be Platinum and the matchmaking would be unbalanced. Plus, he'd get an overall ranking that isn't representative because there isn't enough detail to clearly track progress. Besides, when someone race switches and is at a much lower level, it inflates his opponent's ratings. Another distortion of the ranking system comes from people dropping like 50 games on purpose so that they can try a new race from the bottom up. Maybe doing that is extreme. However, if your opponent's are too good, you'll be so outclassed that you'll barely be able to learn the fundamentals (see my tennis analogy).
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On February 27 2012 05:58 dAPhREAk wrote:
not enough competitive people switch races for such a ladder ranking system to be necessary.
Disagree entirely. There's no reason NOT to have separate ranking for separate races, because who on earth thought that everyone would have equal skill at every race?
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I also don't see why people are saying it would make smurfing
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lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button.
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This is one of those issues that has been plaguing Bnet since beta, and its NEVER going to get solved, for the simple reason that once you've bought the game blizzard really doesnt care about you actually having fun, you know, playing a GAME. The bnet UI and general design is so terrible that there is no way it got that bad on accident. Im pretty sure that dustin browder got rick trolled by a member of teamliquid one to many times and was like, "those nerds are gonna PAY!" And thusly battle.net 2.0 was born.
If you want to know why blizzard hates you and everything you love, just read this article
tl;dr All gamers are dirty pirates who must be punished.
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I agree i had to deal with the same shit when i race switched to zerg from toss
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On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button.
This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then.
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On February 27 2012 05:55 Zennith wrote:
Eh, I don't see the problem with a single ladder. Your overall skill is your overall skill, and if you want to race switch, why not practice with it in customs before you ladder with it?
Because there's no way you'll be matched with players relatively even to your skill level in customs.
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Easy fix... different ladder ranking for every race. There is no limit to how many rankings someone can have in team so I really don't see the issue with 1v1.
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Just imagine how fun it would be to say
I wanan play X race today.
and then ur against silver opponents right away.
Then you go, i wanna play Y race now , i miss you main race T___T
then ur back to masters
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If you are at all serious about your ladder ranking, as many are, the system literally works against you to have fun with the other races. It's not a huge issue though, since you can practice in team games or customs. Would be very fun to have a ladder for each race though so you could switch as much and as often as possible.
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It would actually be a good idea. In team games you have other rankings for every team you play in and random. Why not make the same trick in 1v1?
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As someone who has switched races several times I'm not sure I understand the problem here. You would be surprised how quickly the system will adjust towards your skill - IE within like 10-15 games. If you are trying to learn a new race, it helps to lose at the highest level possible to learn faster. If you are returning to your old main race, hey have fun with your 10 game win streak or whatever; I enjoyed it...
My main race is protoss, at a masters level, and the other races I play at a diamond level. I think your mechanics remain consistent no matter what race you are playing; it should mostly be a matter of learning bos and specific timings for scouting etc. At anything short of pro level switching races isn't much of a commitment.
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On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then.
lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race
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On February 27 2012 06:18 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
LOL Hopefully it will catch the eye...? Great staff over at blizzard, can't even talk between themselves apparently.
No that surprising considering the fact that they didnt even implement a PTR for the last patch.
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This is not an important issue.
You can practice with your new race against the computer, and you can play custom games before deciding to try your new race on ladder.
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I don't really see a problem with ladder really. Custom matches and AI are both a great way to practice a new race. Besides, as another poster mentioned, it catches up with your current skill level quickly enough. Back when I switched from P to T in Season 2, I played several times vs the AI, several custom matches, went to ladder and it quickly caught up with my skill level. No problem whatsoever.
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Isn't this what customs are for? Like literally what customs are for?
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What do you suggest Blizzard should do?
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On February 27 2012 08:16 lorkac wrote:
Isn't this what customs are for? Like literally what customs are for?
I agree - GreenTea AI is great for learning a new race. I think the intial progress is quicker because you can just focus on one thing. Too many variables on ladder as opposed to setting one matchup, one map and one opening strategy to learn the basic mechanics of your new race without any pressure.
Rinse and repeat...
profit. ;-)
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On February 27 2012 08:17 Johnnybb wrote:
What do you suggest Blizzard should do?
Personally i think its OK the way it is, id have to say i personally thing the best solution would be an unranked matchmaking system but with the nature of the current system that can be iffy to implement because the ladder as it is is less about pure overall rank on a single list so having a seperate unranked ladder thats matching you based on your current rank would be kind wierd.
I do think it can be a little difficult for lower level players to get a bunch of games in against players around their level without just using the ladder, and of course this would apply to those switching races as well.
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Such a stupid thread. This game is complex enough for each player to roughly be able to play 1 race. If you want to switch races, practice with friends etc. Blizzard will not and cannot implement another 5 didnt MMR's and rankings and stats for you....
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On February 27 2012 07:51 BloodThirsty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race
Are you always this rude?
First of all if you don't care about winning/losing/ladder rank or non of that why would you even play the game? What's the benifit of improving faster if your rank doesn't matter to you at all? Cause you honestly think you are gonna go pro with your new race? Ladder is a fun competitive experience where you can test your skill and it makes no sense that you have to lose 40 games before you can enjoy the competion of people of your own skill.
Imagine if you were on a great baseball team and then all of a sudden you and your team decided to play basket ball instead and then the leagues forced you to play at an incredibly high level until you have lost all the way down to somewhere you can actually compete? It would be the silliest thing ever. I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger - does that mean that I have to play at a really high level if I suddenly felt like taking up football?
You say it's a good thing you get to meet better players - but I hate playing when I meet someone and it turns out he just recently changed his race - I knoow it's gonna be a walk in the park and basically no useful practice for me this game because he has to lose 30 games to be at his level meanwhile he is playing games at my level.
Being able to play all 3 races could also tone done balance complaints since it would be easier to test out the other races whenever you pleased. Speaking from experience in WC3. I would basically switch race every 500 game and it always went like "this is gonna be sweet I'm gonna enjoy all this abusive stuff" to "f...! this race! So sick of being owned by this and this" and then I'd switch to learn that the grass once again wasn't greener on the other side.
And before you now make another rude comment directed at me, lemmie just get it out of the way that I was a protoss player who swtiched to Zerg a long time ago and had a ton of losses. I didn't mind it too much, but that doesn't mean that it's not silly and that there are better alternative systems out there. Sometimes I'd still like to play some games as toss but I can't without throwing away a ton of games - and no I don't have practice partners that are way below my level in case I wanna have abit of fun with another race for a while.
There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a ladder rank for each race and even less reason for you to be so rude about it.
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On February 27 2012 08:11 Nemireck wrote:
This is not an important issue.
You can practice with your new race against the computer, and you can play custom games before deciding to try your new race on ladder.
Practicing against the AI is stupid.
They do pushes on timings that never happen in real games anymore and they 1 base forever. They will also never mass expo when they have the advantage either or attack you at ideal timing.
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On February 27 2012 08:30 Cereb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 07:51 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race Are you always this rude? First of all if you don't care about winning/losing/ladder rank or non of that why would you even play the game? What's the benifit of improving faster if your rank doesn't matter to you at all? Cause you honestly think you are gonna go pro with your new race? Ladder is a fun competitive experience where you can test your skill and it makes no sense that you have to lose 40 games before you can enjoy the competion of people of your own skill. Imagine if you were on a great baseball team and then all of a sudden you and your team decided to play basket ball instead and then the leagues forced you to play at an incredibly high level until you have lost all the way down to somewhere you can actually compete? It would be the silliest thing ever. I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger - does that mean that I have to play at a really high level if I suddenly felt like taking up football? You say it's a good thing you get to meet better players - but I hate playing when I meet someone and it turns out he just recently changed his race - I knoow it's gonna be a walk in the park and basically no useful practice for me this game because he has to lose 30 games to be at his level meanwhile he is playing games at my level. Being able to play all 3 races could also tone done balance complaints since it would be easier to test out the other races whenever you pleased. Speaking from experience in WC3. I would basically switch race every 500 game and it always went like "this is gonna be sweet I'm gonna enjoy all this abusive stuff" to "f...! this race! So sick of being owned by this and this" and then I'd switch to learn that the grass once again wasn't greener on the other side. And before you now make another rude comment directed at me, lemmie just get it out of the way that I was a protoss player who swtiched to Zerg a long time ago and had a ton of losses. I didn't mind it too much, but that doesn't mean that it's not silly and that there are better alternative systems out there. Sometimes I'd still like to play some games as toss but I can't without throwing away a ton of games - and no I don't have practice partners that are way below my level in case I wanna have abit of fun with another race for a while. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a ladder rank for each race and even less reason for you to be so rude about it.
im only rude when absurd suggestions are made. having a ladder for eahc race is a horrible idea. Suck it up go out and play and stop being afraid. Losing is part of the game if u cant handle it then dont play
btw u proved me right bout u being afraid to lose "why should i have to lose 40 times to have fun" go play customs with friends if u dont like it. LOSING is part of competitive SC2 ladder get used to it and stop QQing
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On February 27 2012 10:12 BloodThirsty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:30 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 07:51 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race Are you always this rude? First of all if you don't care about winning/losing/ladder rank or non of that why would you even play the game? What's the benifit of improving faster if your rank doesn't matter to you at all? Cause you honestly think you are gonna go pro with your new race? Ladder is a fun competitive experience where you can test your skill and it makes no sense that you have to lose 40 games before you can enjoy the competion of people of your own skill. Imagine if you were on a great baseball team and then all of a sudden you and your team decided to play basket ball instead and then the leagues forced you to play at an incredibly high level until you have lost all the way down to somewhere you can actually compete? It would be the silliest thing ever. I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger - does that mean that I have to play at a really high level if I suddenly felt like taking up football? You say it's a good thing you get to meet better players - but I hate playing when I meet someone and it turns out he just recently changed his race - I knoow it's gonna be a walk in the park and basically no useful practice for me this game because he has to lose 30 games to be at his level meanwhile he is playing games at my level. Being able to play all 3 races could also tone done balance complaints since it would be easier to test out the other races whenever you pleased. Speaking from experience in WC3. I would basically switch race every 500 game and it always went like "this is gonna be sweet I'm gonna enjoy all this abusive stuff" to "f...! this race! So sick of being owned by this and this" and then I'd switch to learn that the grass once again wasn't greener on the other side. And before you now make another rude comment directed at me, lemmie just get it out of the way that I was a protoss player who swtiched to Zerg a long time ago and had a ton of losses. I didn't mind it too much, but that doesn't mean that it's not silly and that there are better alternative systems out there. Sometimes I'd still like to play some games as toss but I can't without throwing away a ton of games - and no I don't have practice partners that are way below my level in case I wanna have abit of fun with another race for a while. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a ladder rank for each race and even less reason for you to be so rude about it. im only rude when absurd suggestions are made. having a ladder for eahc race is a horrible idea. Suck it up go out and play and stop being afraid. Losing is part of the game if u cant handle it then dont play btw u proved me right bout u being afraid to lose "why should i have to lose 40 times to have fun" go play customs with friends if u dont like it. LOSING is part of competitive SC2 ladder get used to it and stop QQing
Although i do think blizzard has dropped the ball on a very large number of things, i do agree that having sperate ladders for each race is a dumb idea.
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On February 27 2012 10:18 SnowSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 10:12 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 27 2012 08:30 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 07:51 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race Are you always this rude? First of all if you don't care about winning/losing/ladder rank or non of that why would you even play the game? What's the benifit of improving faster if your rank doesn't matter to you at all? Cause you honestly think you are gonna go pro with your new race? Ladder is a fun competitive experience where you can test your skill and it makes no sense that you have to lose 40 games before you can enjoy the competion of people of your own skill. Imagine if you were on a great baseball team and then all of a sudden you and your team decided to play basket ball instead and then the leagues forced you to play at an incredibly high level until you have lost all the way down to somewhere you can actually compete? It would be the silliest thing ever. I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger - does that mean that I have to play at a really high level if I suddenly felt like taking up football? You say it's a good thing you get to meet better players - but I hate playing when I meet someone and it turns out he just recently changed his race - I knoow it's gonna be a walk in the park and basically no useful practice for me this game because he has to lose 30 games to be at his level meanwhile he is playing games at my level. Being able to play all 3 races could also tone done balance complaints since it would be easier to test out the other races whenever you pleased. Speaking from experience in WC3. I would basically switch race every 500 game and it always went like "this is gonna be sweet I'm gonna enjoy all this abusive stuff" to "f...! this race! So sick of being owned by this and this" and then I'd switch to learn that the grass once again wasn't greener on the other side. And before you now make another rude comment directed at me, lemmie just get it out of the way that I was a protoss player who swtiched to Zerg a long time ago and had a ton of losses. I didn't mind it too much, but that doesn't mean that it's not silly and that there are better alternative systems out there. Sometimes I'd still like to play some games as toss but I can't without throwing away a ton of games - and no I don't have practice partners that are way below my level in case I wanna have abit of fun with another race for a while. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a ladder rank for each race and even less reason for you to be so rude about it. im only rude when absurd suggestions are made. having a ladder for eahc race is a horrible idea. Suck it up go out and play and stop being afraid. Losing is part of the game if u cant handle it then dont play btw u proved me right bout u being afraid to lose "why should i have to lose 40 times to have fun" go play customs with friends if u dont like it. LOSING is part of competitive SC2 ladder get used to it and stop QQing Although i do think blizzard has dropped the ball on a very large number of things, i do agree that having sperate ladders for each race is a dumb idea.
yea i nevert said blizzard is perfect just having separate accounts for different races is foolish. If you main race has gotten u a higher mmr u should be honored to be playing with ur off race to learn from ur games that u will lose a lot from. Winning at low levels with an off race does nothing to improve but give u false confidence to get rolled when u get ur mmr up again.
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obviously the only solution is to never switch races 
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Blizzard really needs to scrap b.net 2.0, start from scratch, and have a whole new platform that enables LAN, off race ladder switching, a better custom game system, some sort of system that is condusive to map making, cross-region gaming, and better chat channels.
When you care about something, you figure out a way to make it happen. When you don't care about something, you make an excuse.
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They should maybe implement it but i dont see too much of a problem with it. The only drawback is getting ownd by players in Masters when i try off-racing because my Protoss and Terran is awful.
I've off-raced as T/P before went down to almost low diamond/platinum. Then i switch back to Zerg and won 30 games and only dropped 5 of them and of those 5 games i lost were to High Diamonds/Low Masters.
So you can easily manage it. Blizzard should implement it though maybe it would make it more convenient but they probably like $$$
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On February 27 2012 10:12 BloodThirsty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:30 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 07:51 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race Are you always this rude? First of all if you don't care about winning/losing/ladder rank or non of that why would you even play the game? What's the benifit of improving faster if your rank doesn't matter to you at all? Cause you honestly think you are gonna go pro with your new race? Ladder is a fun competitive experience where you can test your skill and it makes no sense that you have to lose 40 games before you can enjoy the competion of people of your own skill. Imagine if you were on a great baseball team and then all of a sudden you and your team decided to play basket ball instead and then the leagues forced you to play at an incredibly high level until you have lost all the way down to somewhere you can actually compete? It would be the silliest thing ever. I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger - does that mean that I have to play at a really high level if I suddenly felt like taking up football? You say it's a good thing you get to meet better players - but I hate playing when I meet someone and it turns out he just recently changed his race - I knoow it's gonna be a walk in the park and basically no useful practice for me this game because he has to lose 30 games to be at his level meanwhile he is playing games at my level. Being able to play all 3 races could also tone done balance complaints since it would be easier to test out the other races whenever you pleased. Speaking from experience in WC3. I would basically switch race every 500 game and it always went like "this is gonna be sweet I'm gonna enjoy all this abusive stuff" to "f...! this race! So sick of being owned by this and this" and then I'd switch to learn that the grass once again wasn't greener on the other side. And before you now make another rude comment directed at me, lemmie just get it out of the way that I was a protoss player who swtiched to Zerg a long time ago and had a ton of losses. I didn't mind it too much, but that doesn't mean that it's not silly and that there are better alternative systems out there. Sometimes I'd still like to play some games as toss but I can't without throwing away a ton of games - and no I don't have practice partners that are way below my level in case I wanna have abit of fun with another race for a while. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a ladder rank for each race and even less reason for you to be so rude about it. im only rude when absurd suggestions are made. having a ladder for eahc race is a horrible idea. Suck it up go out and play and stop being afraid. Losing is part of the game if u cant handle it then dont play btw u proved me right bout u being afraid to lose "why should i have to lose 40 times to have fun" go play customs with friends if u dont like it. LOSING is part of competitive SC2 ladder get used to it and stop QQing
Why exactly is having a unique rank for each race a bad idea? You didn't explain that part. It's kind of key to your whole...rant/argument/whatever. Would it take anything away from the game? Maybe it would, but you need to explain.
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Solution: stop caring about your ladder rank. People dont play starcraft enough as it is, people having 4 different ladder accounts is not going to help this.
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This is a big issue. Apparently Blizzard designed it so different teams have different ladder ranks but different 1v1 races aren't counted the same. It's a big flaw that is easily fixed, but not done so years after release.
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I just got a smurf account, I wanted an NA account anyway so I play zerg on NA and terran on EU. Straight to diamond and I've levelled out there for the time being. Still only played 50 odd games so I'm constantly running into things I haven't experienced, when I've got a couple hundred under my belt I'll push for masters.
Would be nice to have separate ladders for each race though, but I can't see it happening.
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On February 27 2012 10:40 OrangeSoda wrote:
Solution: stop caring about your ladder rank. People dont play starcraft enough as it is, people having 4 different ladder accounts is not going to help this.
See thats not the main problem i don't care about my ladder rank too much i'm (low-Mid Master)
Then i lose games when i Off-race until im about low-diamond or so. Its very inconvenient though because you have to get stomped for about 30-40 games straight until you are playing players on the Ladder that you can evenly face whilst playing off-race. That;s the problem.
It's not even about rank its about getting ownd by players who are = level to your main race; but when you're offracing you get owned by them; Until you get demoted way down!
So if you wanna switch back between your main race and off-race its kind-of inconvenient and takes time to play players on your level again between your main and off-race.
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Just go and drop games on purpose if you know you can't play at your MMR's level. Sure it's great to play a few games against people better than you, but when thats all you get and almost never win it's demoralizing as hell.
I didn't change race, but I didn't play last season and I opened this season with 4-25 or so. Since I was about to fall out of masters anyway I just went and dropped 30 more. Finally got demoted to diamond and now playing against high plat people. I'm happy to train my mechanics and builds when I win most of the time, because losing most of the time just drains all the fun and entertainment out of the game.
It's also fairly easy to predict how low you want to drop as long as you have any clue about your level for the new race. All you need to do is check which league/rank most of your enemies come from. Don't make the mistake of looking at your own league/rank because you won get demoted instantly even if your mmr gets really low.
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I agree with OP..this needs addressing
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On February 27 2012 10:57 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 10:40 OrangeSoda wrote:
Solution: stop caring about your ladder rank. People dont play starcraft enough as it is, people having 4 different ladder accounts is not going to help this. See thats not the main problem i don't care about my ladder rank too much i'm (low-Mid Master) Then i lose games when i Off-race until im about low-diamond or so. Its very inconvenient though because you have to get stomped for about 30-40 games straight until you are playing players on the Ladder that you can evenly face whilst playing off-race. That;s the problem. It's not even about rank its about getting ownd by players who are = level to your main race; but when you're offracing you get owned by them; Until you get demoted way down! So if you wanna switch back between your main race and off-race its kind-of inconvenient and takes time to play players on your level again between your main and off-race.
take those 30-40 games of getting stomped to learn the race then? why are you so hellbent on winning
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On February 27 2012 11:03 OrangeSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 10:57 XRaDiiX wrote:On February 27 2012 10:40 OrangeSoda wrote:
Solution: stop caring about your ladder rank. People dont play starcraft enough as it is, people having 4 different ladder accounts is not going to help this. See thats not the main problem i don't care about my ladder rank too much i'm (low-Mid Master) Then i lose games when i Off-race until im about low-diamond or so. Its very inconvenient though because you have to get stomped for about 30-40 games straight until you are playing players on the Ladder that you can evenly face whilst playing off-race. That;s the problem. It's not even about rank its about getting ownd by players who are = level to your main race; but when you're offracing you get owned by them; Until you get demoted way down! So if you wanna switch back between your main race and off-race its kind-of inconvenient and takes time to play players on your level again between your main and off-race. take those 30-40 games of getting stomped to learn the race then? why are you so hellbent on winning
Wow you totally missed the point of what i was saying i don't give a crap about my rank.
I said the inconvenience of having to play 30-40 games to rank/up and down to start playing players that are your skill level again between main/off race.
Whenever you want to switch races this is extremely inconvenient and not good practice when you are playing against lower /higer calibre players depending on whether your main/offracing.
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Although I support the idea of having separate ladders for separate races, I like to also entertain the thought of having the ability to choose whether you want to be matched with stronger enemies for perhaps a greater MMR award for winning, or weaker opponents when trying new builds, or perhaps off-racing, but only gaining a meager amount of MMR when winning.
There was a thread created already which mentioned this concept, although I couldn't find it =\
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Another problem is for people who do not play the game 24/7 and actually take breaks for months at a time like myself. I'm a fairly high level player usually always in high master and hit GM a couple seasons but have taken breaks from the game 2-3 times for months at a time, and its really really frustrating that when I come back to the game that I have to be matched up against basically the best on the american ladder, its not a fun time for those first 20 games. I get bored of the game after awhile and can't play 8 hours a day/7 days a week like most people at this skill level. i dont know why my mmr never goes down when im inactive for so long.
Simple solution- reset the ladder completely including mmr (just like wc3 used to do it)
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blizzard you may make the game but it doesn't mean u can shit all over our beloved games, lets take back blizzard HQ viva la revolucion!
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I wish blizzard would implement separate MMR for each race you play in 1v1, but it'll never happen.
Laddering isn't the best way to learn a new race, even if you drop your MMR down. You'll be much better off if you focus on learning proper mechanics, basic opening build orders, and repeating until you can macro well. YABOT is useful to work on opening build orders and developing muscle memory for hotkeys. Find practice partners slightly above your skill level and play customs with them.
Day9 #360 Mental Checklist: Exercises Part 1
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I don't know that this is a bad thing. This encourages players to stay with one race to improve, rather than constantly switching races. If there were separate ladders, there would be even more people who never progress past the bronze level of skill, thus lowering the average intelligence of the entire SC2 community
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StarCraft II is first and foremost, a multiplayer game and one shouldn't have to buy it three times to get everything out of it.
Lets think this analogically,
League of Legends has players already spending more than 100s to play a different variety of champions and heroes, they dont have to but rather build up IP through grinding for those heroes or pay money for the new champion.
If Starcraft 2 players want to switch a race, they should either grind up their experiance in a race or pay money for the new champion.
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Yeah, bnet 2.0's intentional limits suck.
I can't blame Blizzard since they make money from people buying additional accounts for:
1) Having separate ladder accounts/laddering race accounts, and
2) Playing on different servers
However, it still makes sc2 a sub-par experience and makes me angry and sad. I would like to try laddering as z, but should'nt have to intentionally forever (and lose the ability to practice my main race at my playing level as well). And while I could try playing I'd probably go 0-50 or so which is a bit rough.
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This literally prevents me from offracing 1v1. It makes it so that if I want to switch, it has to be a long term decision so that I can actually stabilize my MMR with a new race, which also means completely abandoning my main for that period. It's just ridiculously inconvenient unless you don't mind your MMR floating around nowhere near where you'd ever actually like it to be.
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I think that this problem is not a huge problem actually. If you want to change races i think that it is smart to get demoted down a few leagues and when or if you want to switch back to your strong race it should not be hard to get out of the lower leagues. I have experince with this and can say that yes the 3 1/2 hours it took me to get to bronze league and the 2 days it took me to get into gold when i switched back (actually top 2 gold and beating plats) but that has nothing to with it, I dont like the idea of multiple ladders because it does defeat the difficulty of this game and the want to get better, however it rewards people who want to change races becasue the get bored when there are people who want to improve and have to play on ladder with weaker people or a weaker Platinum league than a stronger one. If you want to practice there are plenty of maps to practice on a nd you can always play with friends. But it is an intriging idea but especially at the moment there is no need and if there are people like that then it will just be tough times for them for a few hours...
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I don't see what your problem is. When I race switch my MMR goes up. Oh you're not Zerg, right.
I kid, I kid. Seriously though, the problem is that it would make the ladder super diluted. Yeah sure it doesn't mean much anyway, but have you seen the team leagues? That's some serious irrelevant bullshit going on over there. For those people who stick to one race, this would make it a lot harder to figure out where they stand. Similarly, the system relies on more games to become more accurate. How would it have to account for this?
Plus, some things are fine to be hard. Mastering all 3 races is one of those. So you'll lose a few games. Not a big deal.
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On February 27 2012 10:40 OrangeSoda wrote:
Solution: stop caring about your ladder rank. People dont play starcraft enough as it is, people having 4 different ladder accounts is not going to help this.
How is that even remotely a solution?
"Not caring" won't get you matched against equally skilled players any faster when you switch. And if I don't play a single race only for a month at a time, I might as well be smurfing, because alternating regularly just means I'm tanking my MMR with my offrace and then getting cheap wins against lesser skilled players as my main.
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On February 27 2012 07:48 FindMuck wrote:
Just imagine how fun it would be to say
I wanan play X race today.
and then ur against silver opponents right away.
Then you go, i wanna play Y race now , i miss you main race T___T
then ur back to masters
damn yea, that would be my dream
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On February 27 2012 11:04 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:03 OrangeSoda wrote:On February 27 2012 10:57 XRaDiiX wrote:On February 27 2012 10:40 OrangeSoda wrote:
Solution: stop caring about your ladder rank. People dont play starcraft enough as it is, people having 4 different ladder accounts is not going to help this. See thats not the main problem i don't care about my ladder rank too much i'm (low-Mid Master) Then i lose games when i Off-race until im about low-diamond or so. Its very inconvenient though because you have to get stomped for about 30-40 games straight until you are playing players on the Ladder that you can evenly face whilst playing off-race. That;s the problem. It's not even about rank its about getting ownd by players who are = level to your main race; but when you're offracing you get owned by them; Until you get demoted way down! So if you wanna switch back between your main race and off-race its kind-of inconvenient and takes time to play players on your level again between your main and off-race. take those 30-40 games of getting stomped to learn the race then? why are you so hellbent on winning Wow you totally missed the point of what i was saying i don't give a crap about my rank. I said the inconvenience of having to play 30-40 games to rank/up and down to start playing players that are your skill level again between main/off race. Whenever you want to switch races this is extremely inconvenient and not good practice when you are playing against lower /higer calibre players depending on whether your main/offracing.
You should be learning stuff during those 30-40 games you're getting stomped. I'd rather get stomped 30-40 games in a row by playing better people then win half my games by playing noob people. You learn a hell of a lot more.
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In my experience the system places you where you belong fairly quickly (I tried new races with each new season).
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Canada11475 Posts
On February 27 2012 15:38 Neino wrote:
Get a second account
You realize how absurd this is when in previous Blizzard games you could simply make a new account for free. Of course that's out for a variety of reasons, but they could have at least had separate mmr for all races. But this is an old argument and I somehow doubt Blizzard will ever deal with this.
As to those arguing that you should only play against tough people and suck up those 30-40 losses, well sure. But there's something to be said for playing against people your own skill when you off-race. It makes the whole affair much simpler and less of a mental commitment that you're going to have to tank your main for awhile. (Also Day9 says there's value in playing worse players for practicing new builds, so then it must be true )
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Personally I don't care because after so much trepidation that we all seem to experience I after so many games and so much time stopped giving a fuck about my ladder score so I'll play any race it just doesn't matter.
However it would be a really smart move for blizzard to allow separate "accounts" or whatever, ladder ranking mmr for each race. Alot more people would be happy and actually play the game. Instead of being scared. They could just have fun instead of worrying about their ladder score. And since more people are actually playing the game as a result, everyone wins.
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Exactly! I don't see a clear downside to my suggestions and it would improve the game for many people.
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On February 27 2012 06:09 Balgrog wrote:
Well out of everything B.Net needs to fix, this is one of the last things I am worried about! I do wish this would happen though, luckily I have a few friends who only play 2v2's and rarely, so I can use there accounts, I have my main as toss, one as gold zerg and one as gold terran, so I can bounce around.
This pretty much what people do nowadays, including myself.
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Add this to the list of 30 other obviously useful and extremely easy to add things that should have been included in battle.net 2.0 since the very start but which Blizzard refuses to add for some nebulous reason.
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Or maybe we can just create infinite accounts on all servers like you can with every game that is released before ~05.
I agree though, I quit myself from masters to bronze on my 2nd account just because I wanted to play zerg (I never did before) and kinda start from the buttom so I could really expirement around without having to worry about my opponnent having any chance of killing me. Would have been a lot easier if I could have just clicked create new account.
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I want to add that the whole 30-40 game argument of getting stomped isn't really fair to the casuals. There are plenty of people would love to play other races but only play 30-40 games a season. I play two races constantly so I was put into a situation where I bought a separate account. Today I woke up and decided that I wanted to play Zerg and the last thing I would want to do is to play a bunch of games so that I can drop my MMR to the correct spot since I can wake up tomorrow and feel like playing Toss.
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On February 29 2012 04:45 Mutown wrote:
Exactly! I don't see a clear downside to my suggestions and it would improve the game for many people.
Less money for blizzard.
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On February 29 2012 05:06 antilyon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 04:45 Mutown wrote:
Exactly! I don't see a clear downside to my suggestions and it would improve the game for many people. Less money for blizzard.
I agree and I think that Blizzard should implement a feature where people can buy a new ladder account. It will reduce the amount of smurfs since there is a price on it and it will bring in more revenue for them since more people are likely to purchase the new account over a whole new game.
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This is why you should have 3 different 1v1 "teams", (or 4 if you want a Random one as well) 1 for each race, each in different divisions, and possibly leagues; different MMR at least.
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...why was the user warned for his post? This is an incredibly legitimate complaint that should be discussed.
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^^ because the title was in all caps before a mod changed it, ie, read the second post
Most all of these suggestions have a serious consequence for allowing heavy smurfing to get into SC2. Blizzard basically went through the whole ladder system trying to remove ways that you could fool it into letting you stomp on players way below your skill level. You can't get around it without getting another account or actually tanking your MMR, which are both purposefully serious barriers, I'd imagine.
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A fair argument. You'd think Blizzard would take pride in the complexity of their game, however, and acknowledge the fact that in order to reach a very high level with one race (or do it quickly at least) one must sacrifice skill with the other races, and therefore give players the ability to play in a different skill bracket depending on the race they choose.
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On February 27 2012 05:49 Mutown wrote:
The ladder is essential for a competitive multiplayer game like StarCraft II.
Ahhhhh to bad it sucks? lol Blizzard why your BNet 0.2 so fail?
Remove devisions and show my bloody looses.
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On February 27 2012 05:49 Mutown wrote:
While it may line Blizzard's coffers, it's logically indefensible and clearly not a realistic solution.
Sigh...This. Blizzard doesn't give two shits past anything that wont make them money. The only reason they balance the game is to keep interest up. If they didn't balance it would just die out. Blizzard UI is terrible, but people are still gonna buy it. The tech support is terrible, but people still buy it. Ladder anxiety is rampant, but people still buy it. It pains me to see people demand things from Blizzard as if they have a commitment to the players, which they dont. If we paid monthly for the game, then they would have a commitment to us to improve their product.
tl;dr Blizzard doesn't care about anything besides their money. Deal with it and stop whining/requesting for more.
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I'd like to think Blizzard cares about the future of their franchise and the satisfaction of their customers. I am, after all, more likely to buy future Blizzard products if they are responsive to the community.
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only on TL do the mods warn people for voicing their opinion... GG
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blizzard 2.0 
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I agree with the OP's sentiment. I was in a fastest clan in BW for a while and ended up with a number of accounts. One was for the clan, one was for Protoss, one was for Zerg, and one was for UMS/other gametypes. It's pretty silly that you can't divide things up like that in SC2, or change your account name as often as you like.
It's sad that so many years after the original, we're dealing with a version of b.net that's so much worse than what we had before. Battle.net 0.2 indeed.
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On March 02 2012 15:26 EM1 wrote:
only on TL do the mods warn people for voicing their opinion... GG
That was actually just because when I copy pasted the thread title and it was all caps.
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I fully agree with the opening post and have thought along similiar lines for a long time. My main race is Z, which I play on master level. I have no intention to change that in the long-run, however, I would find it quite fun to play a couple of games with offraces. Of course I could buy a different account, and given the amount of time I invest in Starcraft it is not really the money hindering me to do it. Rather, I would like to have all wins and all achievements on one account. Also, given the emphasis Bnet 2.0 is supposed to put on social interactions, I would find it quite absurd to manage my friendlist on two accounts. So yeah, there really should be something like a training ranking or whatever.
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I stopped reading after you said a plat player has the skill of a silver player in a different race. Thats just BS.
Even if you lost and got demoted to bronze, who gives a shit? Just a game. Play it to get better and forget about leagues and ladder ranking... people are missing the point of this game lol.
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On March 02 2012 15:26 EM1 wrote:
only on TL do the mods warn people for voicing their opinion... GG
for the second time. he was warned for making the title in caps, not for having an opinion. you should try reading sometime. you look like less of a fool with your total of 6 posts when you at least have something useful to say instead of bashing tl for something you got all wrong. go +1 at reddit if you dont like it here.
on topic. i dont see the problem here. if you are serious about a race switch, your rating will adjust to accommodate your skill level with that race, and the longer you play with it the more skilled you will become with the race while at the same time becoming less proficient with your previous race.
either way your ranking represents work skill with that race. it seems to me like this all comes down to an e-peen thing. that should you want to try a new race, you can still display your best race to the world while you try to get a good ranking with another. if you feel like Fucking around with another race you might as well play customs. you have nothing to lose there.
the thing about screwing around with ladder rankings in general by losing games to "worse" players is completely wrong. the amount me games it would take to have any kind of serious effect is huge and your 5 to 10 games a day against DIFFERENT opponents is so small when you look at the bigger picture that it doesn't make any difference. me beating you because you offraced is in no way going to break the ladder and its not going to balloon my mmr to such an extent that i get bumped up to a league i dont belong in. the only person affected is the person off racing by adjusting his rating to the right level and quite frankly if you want to change race you should be willing to to a bit of a knock. its going to happen whether you like it or not.
as an ex diamond terran who switched to zerg on a different account and dropped to plat i know all about it. what people also dont realise is that if you switch race and you feel more comfortable with the new race you probably aren't going to touch your old race unless you feel like screwing around in custom games. so having 3 separate ladders for 3 separate races would only be to show off your shiny league badge and nothing else.
if its really that important to you, buy another account. i did and to be honest it was just to fuck around with. now Im playing zerg on my second account and haven't touched my old account in 2 seasons.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
People take ladder ranking so seriously =/
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I agree that blizz should implement the 4 options.. of PTZR.
I also was in the positions when wanted to try other race and forfeited 150 games until i get to bronze... after that i won 68 games in a row... now i am back to plati and stable.. win/lose rate around 50%....
But i can say .. that from the 100 games that i have played.. maybe I learned something only in the last 20...
Separate profile.. would be .. welll.. just pure awesome.
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Well, how many of the divisions from plat and down have more than 50% of the players playing less than 25 games in a season? From what I have experienced quite many of them. Given that you want to even split it more will just lead to completely inactive divisions. People doing two-three games with their off-race when they are tired of playing the main race.
If you want to start a new race, just play and loose, the MMR system will try to find a place where you have ~55% win rate anyway. Eventually you will improve.
If you don't want to get demoted just play Peepmode games.
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On February 27 2012 07:51 LimeNade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race
It is absolutely stupid. What if you were masters level Terran and a diamond level Zerg? You may enjoy playing Zerg, but that doesn't mean you NEVER want to play Terran (your main race) ever again. Sometimes, you may want to play some Zerg to expand your horizons, improve at another race, and simply enjoy more aspects of the game you paid for.
It is clearly inefficient to have to play 5-10 "buffer" games every time you switch between the two to be matched with people of your skill level. It has nothing to do with crying about ladder rankings. If you had different rankings for each race, this inefficiency would be completely abolished. Whenever you play Terran, you'd be playing opponents at your level in masters. Whenever you play Zerg, you'd be playing opponents at your level in diamond. Everyone is happy.
This is such an easy change. It's perhaps not necessary, and there are a lot of other things Blizzard should maybe fix first. But there's no reason at all why they shouldn't patch this in eventually.
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On March 02 2012 17:46 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 15:26 EM1 wrote:
only on TL do the mods warn people for voicing their opinion... GG as an ex diamond terran who switched to zerg on a different account and dropped to plat i know all about it. what people also dont realise is that if you switch race and you feel more comfortable with the new race you probably aren't going to touch your old race unless you feel like screwing around in custom games. so having 3 separate ladders for 3 separate races would only be to show off your shiny league badge and nothing else. if its really that important to you, buy another account. i did and to be honest it was just to fuck around with. now Im playing zerg on my second account and haven't touched my old account in 2 seasons.
Says who? Just because you personally don't feel inclined to touch your old race after switching, I'm sure there are many people that would like to switch back and forth.
I think it would actually be pretty fun to set a goal for myself such as "Get all 3 races individually into diamond." Then "Get all three into masters." Then maybe "Get into masters with Random." I would definitely play more.
There's nothing to lose by patching in different leagues for different races, and it would only make the game more fun. So why not? It's not that much more work for Blizzard to do from a programming standpoint... Maybe the hardest part would be redesigning the Profile screen a bit to display the 3 different races.
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Well, it really shouldn't be possible to be platinum with one race and silver with another unless you're some sort of timing push wonder who has no skill outside of that one build you do decently. I mean, if someone like idra changes to protoss, I'm sure we wouldn't see him in GM for quite a while, but it's not like he wouldn't be high master more or less immediately, and that's on the highest level. Me as a platinum zerg would be very surprised if I had issues getting to platinum quickly as terran or protoss.
EDIT: Should be noted that I still think it's retarded that there's not individual ladders for each race, I would play a LOT more ladder if there was.
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On March 02 2012 17:55 akaMadMike wrote:
Well, how many of the divisions from plat and down have more than 50% of the players playing less than 25 games in a season? From what I have experienced quite many of them. Given that you want to even split it more will just lead to completely inactive divisions. People doing two-three games with their off-race when they are tired of playing the main race.
If you want to start a new race, just play and loose, the MMR system will try to find a place where you have ~55% win rate anyway. Eventually you will improve.
If you don't want to get demoted just play Peepmode games.
It wouldn't make a difference because there would be 3 times as many players (or 4x if you include Random). So each specific account-race combo might have less activity, but overall, the same number of games would be played (assuming the people that used to play are still playing).
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On March 02 2012 18:26 Tobberoth wrote:
Well, it really shouldn't be possible to be platinum with one race and silver with another unless you're some sort of timing push wonder who has no skill outside of that one build you do decently. I mean, if someone like idra changes to protoss, I'm sure we wouldn't see him in GM for quite a while, but it's not like he wouldn't be high master more or less immediately, and that's on the highest level. Me as a platinum zerg would be very surprised if I had issues getting to platinum quickly as terran or protoss.
EDIT: Should be noted that I still think it's retarded that there's not individual ladders for each race, I would play a LOT more ladder if there was.
Yeah I agree it shouldn't take TOO long. But each race still has a lot of depth regarding timings and stuff. Furthermore, you gotta get used to the hotkeys somewhat. And in regards to your example about Idra, I know there are pros that are really good off-racing. But I think I read on TL somewhere that in the Korean scene, the pros offrace battle each other for fun, and they make fun of one pro (I can't remember which pro) all the time because his offrace is absolutely terrible. Also, Idra's Zerg is WAY above the level of any NA high masters. So if his Terran and Toss were "merely" at high masters on NA, then it actually is a significant discrepancy. If we translate that down to us mortals, it could easily be the difference between one race being in mid-masters and the other in mid-diamond.
So it can happen!
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On March 02 2012 17:55 akaMadMike wrote:
Well, how many of the divisions from plat and down have more than 50% of the players playing less than 25 games in a season? From what I have experienced quite many of them. Given that you want to even split it more will just lead to completely inactive divisions. People doing two-three games with their off-race when they are tired of playing the main race.
If you want to start a new race, just play and loose, the MMR system will try to find a place where you have ~55% win rate anyway. Eventually you will improve.
If you don't want to get demoted just play Peepmode games.
Your debating that fixing a real problem will break an unimportant broken feature.
Just saying, it doesn't make sense.
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On February 27 2012 05:56 Spicy_Curry wrote:
the technology isnt there yet
Haha, ^^ totally agrees 
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On March 02 2012 17:55 akaMadMike wrote:
Well, how many of the divisions from plat and down have more than 50% of the players playing less than 25 games in a season? From what I have experienced quite many of them. Given that you want to even split it more will just lead to completely inactive divisions. People doing two-three games with their off-race when they are tired of playing the main race.
If you want to start a new race, just play and loose, the MMR system will try to find a place where you have ~55% win rate anyway. Eventually you will improve.
If you don't want to get demoted just play Peepmode games.
that ~55% is wrong, at the most the system should be trying to place you at a level where you will attain 50% win rate, the perfect situation is it actively trying to give you a 45% win rate as it actively tries to make you play better opponents, not weaker ones.
but yeah, only non-masters players find the need to have seperate rankings for each race since all they think they can do to improve is playing one race, when its more than likely you need to be able to play all 3 races to a similar degree of skill to be masters.
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On March 02 2012 18:28 redemption wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 17:55 akaMadMike wrote:
Well, how many of the divisions from plat and down have more than 50% of the players playing less than 25 games in a season? From what I have experienced quite many of them. Given that you want to even split it more will just lead to completely inactive divisions. People doing two-three games with their off-race when they are tired of playing the main race.
If you want to start a new race, just play and loose, the MMR system will try to find a place where you have ~55% win rate anyway. Eventually you will improve.
If you don't want to get demoted just play Peepmode games. It wouldn't make a difference because there would be 3 times as many players (or 4x if you include Random). So each specific account-race combo might have less activity, but overall, the same number of games would be played (assuming the people that used to play are still playing).
Yeah, you would have the same ammount of games, maybe even more games as offracing might take away some ladder fear. However I can not see how you would avoid having division after division with little to no activity below top 8 players. What you would end up with is atleast twice the ammount of divisions filled up with players haveing one or two games (just a placement match or two as their offrace).
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On February 29 2012 05:37 CrtBalorda wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 05:49 Mutown wrote:
The ladder is essential for a competitive multiplayer game like StarCraft II. Ahhhhh to bad it sucks? lol Blizzard why your BNet 0.2 so fail? Remove devisions and show my bloody looses. Unless you play in the very high skill region where the match maker often cannot provide you an opponent of equal skill, the win ratio is just a sign of how good or bad the match maker works. It is no indication of your skill.
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On March 02 2012 15:26 EM1 wrote:
only on TL do the mods warn people for voicing their opinion... GG
You're a fucking retard, he's warned because the title was all caps.
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am i missing something here, or can't you just message friends to play over and over? maybe vs their offrace but their main is your offrace so they can help you. once that matchup is cool, play another friend of a different race
this thread is so pointless, there are SO many other things that need to be done first that when blizzard sees frivolous threads like this, it discredits the truly imminent issues. make some friends imo and close this thread
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Level of play with different races can differ a lot. To be more exact level of play in different match-ups can differ a lot. For example I am a random player whose best match-ups are somewhere in masters range, but worst mu:s probably in platinum range. Bnet calculates my MMR as average of all mu:s. This leads to that in ladder I often crush my opponents in some mu:s, but lose a lot in some other mu:s.
Thanks to sc2gears & replay analysis I know where my biggest weaknesses are and I am working to improve. But it often takes time to see a clear improvement in your level in certain mu as random players already practice their each mu a lot less than race pickers. And when you put more effort to improve in some mu, your level in some other mu:s can start to decline when you subconsciously start changing small things / habits based on what you are testing / adopting in your worst mu:s.
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United States97276 Posts
On March 02 2012 21:54 korona wrote:
Level of play with different races can differ a lot. To be more exact level of play in different match-ups can differ a lot. For example I am a random player whose best match-ups are somewhere in masters range, but worst mu:s probably in platinum range. Bnet calculates my MMR as average of all mu:s. This leads to that in ladder I often crush my opponents in some mu:s, but lose a lot in some other mu:s.
Thanks to sc2gears & replay analysis I know where my biggest weaknesses are and I am working to improve. But it often takes time to see a clear improvement in your level in certain mu as random players already practice their each mu a lot less than race pickers. And when you put more effort to improve in some mu, your level in some other mu:s can start to decline when you subconsciously start changing small things / habits based on what you are testing / adopting in your worst mu:s.
This is 100% true. I started playing random and I would consider my TvT, TvP, PvT, ZvT, and ZvP to all be at least mid diamond. However, my TvZ, PvP, and ZvZ are all like mid plat >.< After finding what my weak matchups were I played a lot of custom games with those match ups to try and get about even. Custom games are really helpful if you care a lot about your ladder mmr and stuff and don't want to lower it. You can also devote more time to specific maps and matchups you have trouble with.
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On February 27 2012 10:12 LimeNade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:30 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 07:51 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race Are you always this rude? First of all if you don't care about winning/losing/ladder rank or non of that why would you even play the game? What's the benifit of improving faster if your rank doesn't matter to you at all? Cause you honestly think you are gonna go pro with your new race? Ladder is a fun competitive experience where you can test your skill and it makes no sense that you have to lose 40 games before you can enjoy the competion of people of your own skill. Imagine if you were on a great baseball team and then all of a sudden you and your team decided to play basket ball instead and then the leagues forced you to play at an incredibly high level until you have lost all the way down to somewhere you can actually compete? It would be the silliest thing ever. I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger - does that mean that I have to play at a really high level if I suddenly felt like taking up football? You say it's a good thing you get to meet better players - but I hate playing when I meet someone and it turns out he just recently changed his race - I knoow it's gonna be a walk in the park and basically no useful practice for me this game because he has to lose 30 games to be at his level meanwhile he is playing games at my level. Being able to play all 3 races could also tone done balance complaints since it would be easier to test out the other races whenever you pleased. Speaking from experience in WC3. I would basically switch race every 500 game and it always went like "this is gonna be sweet I'm gonna enjoy all this abusive stuff" to "f...! this race! So sick of being owned by this and this" and then I'd switch to learn that the grass once again wasn't greener on the other side. And before you now make another rude comment directed at me, lemmie just get it out of the way that I was a protoss player who swtiched to Zerg a long time ago and had a ton of losses. I didn't mind it too much, but that doesn't mean that it's not silly and that there are better alternative systems out there. Sometimes I'd still like to play some games as toss but I can't without throwing away a ton of games - and no I don't have practice partners that are way below my level in case I wanna have abit of fun with another race for a while. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a ladder rank for each race and even less reason for you to be so rude about it. im only rude when absurd suggestions are made. having a ladder for eahc race is a horrible idea. Suck it up go out and play and stop being afraid. Losing is part of the game if u cant handle it then dont play btw u proved me right bout u being afraid to lose "why should i have to lose 40 times to have fun" go play customs with friends if u dont like it. LOSING is part of competitive SC2 ladder get used to it and stop QQing
So basically you didn't address anything I wrote and just repeated your own opinion with no argumentation or evidence to back it up? Nice.
None is QQing about losses. It's just silly and it's easy to change. Losing is part of it but so is winning. It's not about this. It's about having fun playing with people of your own skill, which I already wrote but apparantly taking one sentence out of context of my entire post is good logic to you.
You still haven't explained why it's bad to have a seperate ladder rank for each race. You just insult people to get your opinion across.
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On March 02 2012 22:10 Cereb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 10:12 LimeNade wrote:On February 27 2012 08:30 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 07:51 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race Are you always this rude? First of all if you don't care about winning/losing/ladder rank or non of that why would you even play the game? What's the benifit of improving faster if your rank doesn't matter to you at all? Cause you honestly think you are gonna go pro with your new race? Ladder is a fun competitive experience where you can test your skill and it makes no sense that you have to lose 40 games before you can enjoy the competion of people of your own skill. Imagine if you were on a great baseball team and then all of a sudden you and your team decided to play basket ball instead and then the leagues forced you to play at an incredibly high level until you have lost all the way down to somewhere you can actually compete? It would be the silliest thing ever. I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger - does that mean that I have to play at a really high level if I suddenly felt like taking up football? You say it's a good thing you get to meet better players - but I hate playing when I meet someone and it turns out he just recently changed his race - I knoow it's gonna be a walk in the park and basically no useful practice for me this game because he has to lose 30 games to be at his level meanwhile he is playing games at my level. Being able to play all 3 races could also tone done balance complaints since it would be easier to test out the other races whenever you pleased. Speaking from experience in WC3. I would basically switch race every 500 game and it always went like "this is gonna be sweet I'm gonna enjoy all this abusive stuff" to "f...! this race! So sick of being owned by this and this" and then I'd switch to learn that the grass once again wasn't greener on the other side. And before you now make another rude comment directed at me, lemmie just get it out of the way that I was a protoss player who swtiched to Zerg a long time ago and had a ton of losses. I didn't mind it too much, but that doesn't mean that it's not silly and that there are better alternative systems out there. Sometimes I'd still like to play some games as toss but I can't without throwing away a ton of games - and no I don't have practice partners that are way below my level in case I wanna have abit of fun with another race for a while. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a ladder rank for each race and even less reason for you to be so rude about it. im only rude when absurd suggestions are made. having a ladder for eahc race is a horrible idea. Suck it up go out and play and stop being afraid. Losing is part of the game if u cant handle it then dont play btw u proved me right bout u being afraid to lose "why should i have to lose 40 times to have fun" go play customs with friends if u dont like it. LOSING is part of competitive SC2 ladder get used to it and stop QQing So basically you didn't address anything I wrote and just repeated your own opinion with no argumentation or evidence to back it up? Nice. None is QQing about losses. It's just silly and it's easy to change. Losing is part of it but so is winning. It's not about this. It's about having fun playing with people of your own skill, which I already wrote but apparantly taking one sentence out of context of my entire post is good logic to you. You still haven't explained why it's bad to have a seperate ladder rank for each race. You just insult people to get your opinion across.
seperate ladder rank for each race is bad, it is not fair to the people in the lower leagues to get rolled by high league players. Dont tell me a master league terran is bronze level with his zerg. That is not even counting the people that would just abuse for portrait farming/trolling the lower leagues with their offrace.
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Yeah it's pretty obnoxiously bad the way Bnet 2.0 is set up, I still am fond of the old Bnet even with all of it's flaws you had the ability to make as many new accounts and change ur name as often as you wanted and hosting custom maps was done properly and you were able to play cross region as well. the old Bnet simply facilitated a more free and open environment and all was right with the world. The only major problem I remember with the old Bnet was for some reason I was unable to ever host games, but even with this massive glaring flaw I would still say the old Bnet was vastly superior.
Currently, trying to practice offrace with only one account is a real pain in the ass, the only way I can properly practice T and P is to derank myself by spending basically a solid day losing games [Which can get your banned too of course, go figure] and then even after that I have to spend all my time playing offraces on ladder and don't ever get to play Zerg properly unless I reach back up to masters rank. So, I've deranked myself twice, currently in masters, I can play Zerg alright but my Terran and Protoss still have shit practice and I only know how to win with rush builds because I don't have a proper ladder to practice them on, thanks Blizzard.
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On March 02 2012 22:25 OrangeSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 22:10 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 10:12 LimeNade wrote:On February 27 2012 08:30 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 07:51 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race Are you always this rude? First of all if you don't care about winning/losing/ladder rank or non of that why would you even play the game? What's the benifit of improving faster if your rank doesn't matter to you at all? Cause you honestly think you are gonna go pro with your new race? Ladder is a fun competitive experience where you can test your skill and it makes no sense that you have to lose 40 games before you can enjoy the competion of people of your own skill. Imagine if you were on a great baseball team and then all of a sudden you and your team decided to play basket ball instead and then the leagues forced you to play at an incredibly high level until you have lost all the way down to somewhere you can actually compete? It would be the silliest thing ever. I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger - does that mean that I have to play at a really high level if I suddenly felt like taking up football? You say it's a good thing you get to meet better players - but I hate playing when I meet someone and it turns out he just recently changed his race - I knoow it's gonna be a walk in the park and basically no useful practice for me this game because he has to lose 30 games to be at his level meanwhile he is playing games at my level. Being able to play all 3 races could also tone done balance complaints since it would be easier to test out the other races whenever you pleased. Speaking from experience in WC3. I would basically switch race every 500 game and it always went like "this is gonna be sweet I'm gonna enjoy all this abusive stuff" to "f...! this race! So sick of being owned by this and this" and then I'd switch to learn that the grass once again wasn't greener on the other side. And before you now make another rude comment directed at me, lemmie just get it out of the way that I was a protoss player who swtiched to Zerg a long time ago and had a ton of losses. I didn't mind it too much, but that doesn't mean that it's not silly and that there are better alternative systems out there. Sometimes I'd still like to play some games as toss but I can't without throwing away a ton of games - and no I don't have practice partners that are way below my level in case I wanna have abit of fun with another race for a while. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a ladder rank for each race and even less reason for you to be so rude about it. im only rude when absurd suggestions are made. having a ladder for eahc race is a horrible idea. Suck it up go out and play and stop being afraid. Losing is part of the game if u cant handle it then dont play btw u proved me right bout u being afraid to lose "why should i have to lose 40 times to have fun" go play customs with friends if u dont like it. LOSING is part of competitive SC2 ladder get used to it and stop QQing So basically you didn't address anything I wrote and just repeated your own opinion with no argumentation or evidence to back it up? Nice. None is QQing about losses. It's just silly and it's easy to change. Losing is part of it but so is winning. It's not about this. It's about having fun playing with people of your own skill, which I already wrote but apparantly taking one sentence out of context of my entire post is good logic to you. You still haven't explained why it's bad to have a seperate ladder rank for each race. You just insult people to get your opinion across. seperate ladder rank for each race is bad, it is not fair to the people in the lower leagues to get rolled by high league players. Dont tell me a master league terran is bronze level with his zerg. That is not even counting the people that would just abuse for portrait farming/trolling the lower leagues with their offrace.
Your right, a master terran is probably not bronze with his zerg, so then he wouldnt end up there. And if he did he would be quickly promoted. I dont see how thats an issue.
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On March 02 2012 23:04 Equity213 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 22:25 OrangeSoda wrote:On March 02 2012 22:10 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 10:12 LimeNade wrote:On February 27 2012 08:30 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 07:51 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race Are you always this rude? First of all if you don't care about winning/losing/ladder rank or non of that why would you even play the game? What's the benifit of improving faster if your rank doesn't matter to you at all? Cause you honestly think you are gonna go pro with your new race? Ladder is a fun competitive experience where you can test your skill and it makes no sense that you have to lose 40 games before you can enjoy the competion of people of your own skill. Imagine if you were on a great baseball team and then all of a sudden you and your team decided to play basket ball instead and then the leagues forced you to play at an incredibly high level until you have lost all the way down to somewhere you can actually compete? It would be the silliest thing ever. I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger - does that mean that I have to play at a really high level if I suddenly felt like taking up football? You say it's a good thing you get to meet better players - but I hate playing when I meet someone and it turns out he just recently changed his race - I knoow it's gonna be a walk in the park and basically no useful practice for me this game because he has to lose 30 games to be at his level meanwhile he is playing games at my level. Being able to play all 3 races could also tone done balance complaints since it would be easier to test out the other races whenever you pleased. Speaking from experience in WC3. I would basically switch race every 500 game and it always went like "this is gonna be sweet I'm gonna enjoy all this abusive stuff" to "f...! this race! So sick of being owned by this and this" and then I'd switch to learn that the grass once again wasn't greener on the other side. And before you now make another rude comment directed at me, lemmie just get it out of the way that I was a protoss player who swtiched to Zerg a long time ago and had a ton of losses. I didn't mind it too much, but that doesn't mean that it's not silly and that there are better alternative systems out there. Sometimes I'd still like to play some games as toss but I can't without throwing away a ton of games - and no I don't have practice partners that are way below my level in case I wanna have abit of fun with another race for a while. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a ladder rank for each race and even less reason for you to be so rude about it. im only rude when absurd suggestions are made. having a ladder for eahc race is a horrible idea. Suck it up go out and play and stop being afraid. Losing is part of the game if u cant handle it then dont play btw u proved me right bout u being afraid to lose "why should i have to lose 40 times to have fun" go play customs with friends if u dont like it. LOSING is part of competitive SC2 ladder get used to it and stop QQing So basically you didn't address anything I wrote and just repeated your own opinion with no argumentation or evidence to back it up? Nice. None is QQing about losses. It's just silly and it's easy to change. Losing is part of it but so is winning. It's not about this. It's about having fun playing with people of your own skill, which I already wrote but apparantly taking one sentence out of context of my entire post is good logic to you. You still haven't explained why it's bad to have a seperate ladder rank for each race. You just insult people to get your opinion across. seperate ladder rank for each race is bad, it is not fair to the people in the lower leagues to get rolled by high league players. Dont tell me a master league terran is bronze level with his zerg. That is not even counting the people that would just abuse for portrait farming/trolling the lower leagues with their offrace. Your right, a master terran is probably not bronze with his zerg, so then he wouldnt end up there. And if he did he would be quickly promoted. I dont see how thats an issue.
It isn't an issue at all, currently you get high league players dropping rank just to practice anyways but they have to screw up their MMR for a while to do so, in fact the way Blizzard has it set up now it ends up with low league players playing vs high league MORE often than if Blizzard gave us extra ladder accounts for each race. If I was given a fresh ladder account I wouldn't even be in bronze, silver or gold for more than a few games anyways, I'd be up into Plat/Diamond incredibly fast and would be right where I'm supposed to be.
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On March 02 2012 22:25 OrangeSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 22:10 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 10:12 LimeNade wrote:On February 27 2012 08:30 Cereb wrote:On February 27 2012 07:51 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 27 2012 07:44 Lowell wrote:On February 27 2012 07:30 BloodThirsty wrote:
lol really? man people need to stop crying "wah my % for my race isn't matching up with my other races" quit crying. Tired of people making threads like this. You should be lucky if you switch races that u lose a lot u should be grateful to be able to see ur flaws in ur new race. If you aren't playing professionally in top tier tournaments u shouldnt care about winning or losing if u learn from ur games u r losing. So stop QQing and making threads bout ur low self esteem cuz u dont wanna lose with a new race and go back on the ladder and hit the search game button. This post is so fucking stupid. Its not about people crying about their percentages or a few losses its about the different level of play for different levels. With the current system youre not really able to offrace without a second account, unless your offrace is nearly as good as your main race. It has nothing to do with self esteem, its about being matched with opponents of the same level, even if you choose to play another race. I switched races 2 times with this system. Starcraft 2 would be a better experience, when i could just casually play my offrace every now and then. lmao how is it stupid? u actually care about ur ladder ranking that means absolutely nothing? u should be happy to be playing better players with ur weaker race thats how ull improve faster. So yes i believe u r crying cuz clearly it has to do with self esteem of being afraid to drop in ranking or u woulldnt care if u didnt care what people thought bout ur sc2 ranking. U would use the opportunity to go out and get better practice with ur weaker race Are you always this rude? First of all if you don't care about winning/losing/ladder rank or non of that why would you even play the game? What's the benifit of improving faster if your rank doesn't matter to you at all? Cause you honestly think you are gonna go pro with your new race? Ladder is a fun competitive experience where you can test your skill and it makes no sense that you have to lose 40 games before you can enjoy the competion of people of your own skill. Imagine if you were on a great baseball team and then all of a sudden you and your team decided to play basket ball instead and then the leagues forced you to play at an incredibly high level until you have lost all the way down to somewhere you can actually compete? It would be the silliest thing ever. I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger - does that mean that I have to play at a really high level if I suddenly felt like taking up football? You say it's a good thing you get to meet better players - but I hate playing when I meet someone and it turns out he just recently changed his race - I knoow it's gonna be a walk in the park and basically no useful practice for me this game because he has to lose 30 games to be at his level meanwhile he is playing games at my level. Being able to play all 3 races could also tone done balance complaints since it would be easier to test out the other races whenever you pleased. Speaking from experience in WC3. I would basically switch race every 500 game and it always went like "this is gonna be sweet I'm gonna enjoy all this abusive stuff" to "f...! this race! So sick of being owned by this and this" and then I'd switch to learn that the grass once again wasn't greener on the other side. And before you now make another rude comment directed at me, lemmie just get it out of the way that I was a protoss player who swtiched to Zerg a long time ago and had a ton of losses. I didn't mind it too much, but that doesn't mean that it's not silly and that there are better alternative systems out there. Sometimes I'd still like to play some games as toss but I can't without throwing away a ton of games - and no I don't have practice partners that are way below my level in case I wanna have abit of fun with another race for a while. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a ladder rank for each race and even less reason for you to be so rude about it. im only rude when absurd suggestions are made. having a ladder for eahc race is a horrible idea. Suck it up go out and play and stop being afraid. Losing is part of the game if u cant handle it then dont play btw u proved me right bout u being afraid to lose "why should i have to lose 40 times to have fun" go play customs with friends if u dont like it. LOSING is part of competitive SC2 ladder get used to it and stop QQing So basically you didn't address anything I wrote and just repeated your own opinion with no argumentation or evidence to back it up? Nice. None is QQing about losses. It's just silly and it's easy to change. Losing is part of it but so is winning. It's not about this. It's about having fun playing with people of your own skill, which I already wrote but apparantly taking one sentence out of context of my entire post is good logic to you. You still haven't explained why it's bad to have a seperate ladder rank for each race. You just insult people to get your opinion across. seperate ladder rank for each race is bad, it is not fair to the people in the lower leagues to get rolled by high league players. Dont tell me a master league terran is bronze level with his zerg. That is not even counting the people that would just abuse for portrait farming/trolling the lower leagues with their offrace.
Well isn't this basically completely the same thing as when someone who is really skilled with RTS picks up SC2 ? Or when good players buy for a new account to smurf / off race? The MMR adjusts and you'll never face those bronze league players again.
Not sure about the portrait farming but my instinct is that it wouldn't change much since those who want to portrait farm can already do it and I can't see how it would be more convenient to do if you had one rank for each race - it would just mean that they'd have to use all three race ranks to farm portraits...? Which actually seems more inconvenient if they want to get back up in the leagues with every race afterwards?
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Agree 100% with the op
never thought about it tho
good post.
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I agree it would be nice for me being random..it would also be silly and encourage more people to lose on purpose.. would I have 4 ladders? One for zerg, toss, terr and rand? Or just 3..
I see people deranking their off race for the hell of it..
Thing is the ladder will even you out if you play enough.. and I don't think anyone's offrace is more than a league below their main unless they've literally never put any time or thought into it. I believe as a diamond toss I could make it to plat on any race with a new acct or one that has 1000 games at bronze level (mmr is sticky) and I bet masters could get to diamond, gm to masters etc..
Basically if u think ladder isn't matching you up properly I see a few options and none of them rely on bliZZARD...
1) commit to the new race. We know how ladder matches people so you should know ahead that this will happen. if u commit to the new race over time you will be evenly matched once the system figures Ur skill of new race.. I know u want Ur cake and to eat it so...
2) practice partners self explanatory. It's Ur fault if Ur rolling or being rolled in practice cause u choose them
3) make Ur worst matchup your best and repeat
I'm sure its been pointed out but by your same logic there should really be about 9 ladder rankings for each player One for each possible opponent when you play each possible race. Even if I only play P, my PvZ is wayyyy better than my PvP and I can beat master zerg but lose to gold protoss...can we at least all agree it'd be silly to have diff ladder for diff matchup. I think its silly and one ladder is enough anyway..
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When I played Protoss in season 1, I decided to switch to zerg with no experience before hand - I started 13-2 as Protoss on ladder, and when I decided to switch to zerg, I lost 7 straight games. The problem was: I did not practice in CUSTOM games 1v1. I thus played approx. 250 games 1v1 custom as zerg before I went back to laddering. It made a huge difference, and I remember going 23-3 when I started as zerg again. Did playing customs not occur to you before you switched races?
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I agree this is a problem, maybe you should be able to reset your account once a season and do your 5 placements again.
But also, what is wrong with silver level zerg playing platinum players or diamond players? Honestly if you want to practice mechanics just do it in a custom. The only thing that ladder offers that a custom doesn't is development of strategy aka, how your build holds up against other builds and what you need to do to make your build effective in reaction to seeing what your opponent is doing. The strategy aspect is only needed once you have your mechanics down. Also, against weak players, you really don't know for sure how your build actually does against another. For example, a platinum level 2 rax is a lot weaker than a masters + level 2 rax. Maybe you could hold the 2 rax doing a 1 gate fe into another gateway 2nd gas and a robo, but in a higher league that build might actually just be auto loss. Only by playing good players will you know for sure how your build matches up.
tldr; yea there's a problem you should be able to reset your rankings once in a while, but also you only need to play on the ladder once you figure out your mechanics.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
I don't really see this as a problem, but on the other hand, I don't think any purpose is served by limiting players to one account.
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The only problem I have with ladder is that ive been matched PvZ for the last 9 games and 17 of my last 20 games. Im a master at PvZ now but as soon as I get matched vs P/T, im gonna fail hard.
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just talk a friend into buying the game who you know will suck and wont play after a week and just find out his info >
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Blizzard still refuses to offer a response on this issue, unfortunately.
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I would like to see an unrated match option on the multiplayer tab. I know custom games are what this was supposed to be, but would be much more easy if you could just push a button to get an random opponent, random ladder map, no chatting before game, no countdown. They could even use your MMR to find your opponent
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Riot please separate servers for EVERY champions in order for me to train all champions.
Valve please separate servers for EVERY heroes in order for me to train all heroes.
Blizzard please separate servers for EVERY classes in order for me to train all classes (gender as well please).
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On February 27 2012 05:56 Spicy_Curry wrote:
the technology isnt there yet
Yep. That's it guys!
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I agree that something needs to be done. Its just painful to race switch for most people, and when you are bored with your race what else do you do? I personally have experience with race switching. I race switched last week from Zerg to Terran in masters league. I catch on quickly so currently I'm fighting higher level players with Terran than what I did Zerg. But others aren't so lucky and lose and lose and lose. It was frustrating my first day when I was attempting to get the build orders down and timings. But if you stick to it and watch alot of Koreans streams it works out great. (Thanks BoxeR, Polt, and Rainbow!).
Note: when talking about buying the game twice you say "buy the game game" or sometthing similar. I just know games in repeated.
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If you want to lean a new race do it in customs not on the ladder. That was hard to solve.
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Why won't these threads die...
Look, if you want to play a different race without tanking your rating or waiting for your MMR to adjust, buy a new account. The vast majority of players don't switch races, and having three separate ladder positions for each race is an incredibly messy and inefficient solution to a very insignificant problem.
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Accounts shouldn't have a ladder for each race, how fair would it be if a person with 3 accounts (lets use MVP for example, surely capable of GM with all 3 race) got into GM with all 3 race, on all 3 accounts, including random on both, thus securing 11 GM spots?
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if people were allowed to race switch don't you think some high level players would just switch their race so they can bash on those poor silver leaguers for kicks
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On March 06 2012 21:34 naggerNZ wrote:
Why won't these threads die...
Look, if you want to play a different race without tanking your rating or waiting for your MMR to adjust, buy a new account. The vast majority of players don't switch races, and having three separate ladder positions for each race is an incredibly messy and inefficient solution to a very insignificant problem.
Actually I believe more players race switch than what don't. I mean think about it, there are more casuals than hardcore gamers playing Starcraft2 as you can tell with how full Bronze league is. These people even some masters play casual(Me since I'm to busy with work and school to actually improve) and would like the ability to play the different races in 1v1 without just getting stomped. Hell I'd be fine if they made a custom map in which you could choose your race and people could search for games for example in BW I only played TvZ I loved it. So all my games were labled "TvZ you Z" and I would enjoy all my matches. This option doesn't exist in Starcraft2 so if you don't enjoy 2/3 of the matchups you are just out of luck and having to grind these match ups you don't want to play when you are limited for time sucks. It really does. With Zerg I hated ZvP and ZvZ but loved ZvT I would never get ZvT so I grew bored of the game. I switched to Terran and I'm having fun with the game. I just hated getting on ladder because I knew I would get ZvZ and ZvP and I didn't want to play those matchups but I wanted to play. There was no other way to combat this in the game itself other than race switching. Which wasn't a problem for me as I had solid-ish macro and I'm a firm believer macro alone will get you to masters.
These players get bored with playing the same race everyday and just want a slight change maybe a few games every couple days with an offrace just for FUN and still keep their ranking on their main race. But the current system doesn't allow this. So they have to lose ranking just to play other players their levels. Don't even suggest custom games as I've done that. You either get a masters player that completly stomps you or a bronze player that doesn't even know how to play.
But for the players that want to make the switch 100% like I did I feel an option to change races like you change names even charge for it if you want. Say you get 2 free and you can reset your ladder ranking on the condition that you can't choose the race you had played on ladder before untill you reach atleast that level with the race you switched to.
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On March 06 2012 21:45 lastshadow wrote:
Accounts shouldn't have a ladder for each race, how fair would it be if a person with 3 accounts (lets use MVP for example, surely capable of GM with all 3 race) got into GM with all 3 race, on all 3 accounts, including random on both, thus securing 11 GM spots?
I feel an easy fix to that is you can only reach GM with one of the races and the others are locked in Masters(Or what ever league). Simple and easy fix as no one needs more than one name in GM as its unfair to the other players.
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I really don't see how a different 1v1 rating for each race is "messy". You can currently have multiple 2v2 rankings because your skill level as a team will be different depending on your partner. It would be very easy to implement the same thing in 1v1 for each race.
As far as smurfing is concerned- smurfs are gonna smurf whether it's playing on a buddy's account, insta-quitting to tank their MMR, or buying a new account. At least there is some transparency with a new 1v1 system of 4 rankings, because everyone can see "hey this guy actually hit master with X race".
To the person who gave an example of a pro hitting GM 12 times with 3 different accounts, do you really think a pro is going to waste all that time fking around with off races to hit GM on 12 accounts? And if he really wants it so bad, what is stopping him from buying multiple accounts or using a buddy's account to do it? Most of these rebuttals are just silly.
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I really don't agree. It isn't hard to learn a new race at all, mechanics and timings carry over, you get used to the new style of macro relatively easy and painfree. I play master toss and bought a new acc to play terran cos I thought this would be an issue. Well, I was master on T in under 20 games and found the "switch" to be very easy and smooth.
The races in SC2 are so similar it makes switching rather easy, you just go marine tank in tvz/t and mmm in tvp, and that's about it to make it to master, not like you really have any other options anyway 
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On March 06 2012 21:34 naggerNZ wrote:
Why won't these threads die...
Look, if you want to play a different race without tanking your rating or waiting for your MMR to adjust, buy a new account. The vast majority of players don't switch races, and having three separate ladder positions for each race is an incredibly messy and inefficient solution to a very insignificant problem.
Please explain a few things.
1) Why is it messy?
2) Vast majority of players don't switch races? What are you basing this off of? Everyone I know that plays this game enjoys playing more than one race.
3) How is this an inefficient solution? Shelling out another $50 for each race is efficient?
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An issue I think would arise from having separate MMR for each race is that the ladder would lose much of it's capacity to quantify player skill. A diamond player off-racing will lose to sub-diamond players due to weaker mechanics/matchup knowledge, however there will definitely be aspects of the game in which they will still be far superior to their opponents.
The current ladder system rates your maximum potential. The best performance you can give with whatever race you choose to play.
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On March 06 2012 21:59 Nihilnovi wrote:I really don't agree. It isn't hard to learn a new race at all, mechanics and timings carry over, you get used to the new style of macro relatively easy and painfree. I play master toss and bought a new acc to play terran cos I thought this would be an issue. Well, I was master on T in under 20 games and found the "switch" to be very easy and smooth. The races in SC2 are so similar it makes switching rather easy, you just go marine tank in tvz/t and mmm in tvp, and that's about it to make it to master, not like you really have any other options anyway
Thats the issue in my opinion. Why should I throw another 50$ at the game to play something that is INCLUDED in my original purchase of the game. I bought the game to play and enjoy and sitting there leaving game after game or losing game after game isn't fun or enjoyable. But I agree its easy for master players to switch as all you need is solid macro and you'll be carried far. But think about the golds, plats, and diamonds that feel accomplished when ranking up but then have to shatter all that just to change races because their bored or buy the game again. It just doesn't make sense.
@NaggerNZ
Still doesn't matter. It would be exactly the same as them being a completely diffrent person on the ladder. Consider someone got masters with Zerg and they switched to Protoss with the different MMR rating that person would be say a Plat Protoss fighting Plat players. How does that change anything at all? Those Plat players are vsing another plat player. Its all the same no matter if they have a higher level race or not.
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Ok, let me put it like this. I don't want to have to do 5 placement matches with each race just so I can off-race every now and then. I don't want to have to manage 3 (potentially 4) different MMRs and ladder ranks, spend 3 different bonus pools. I would rather be able to play players at my main-race skill when I off-race.
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Join peepmodes.
But seriously, while I agree it would be nice for us to have individual ladders per race, I don't see a need. If you're getting beat constantly by better players (despite being able to beat them as your main race) you're going to get better and learn your stuff faster. Even by playing against the AI you're going to improve your mechanics and get back to where you need to be.
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Well then don't race switch. Problem solved as you stated "The vast majority of players don't switch races" be one of those players. I don't really see why you would have to give them all diffrent bonus pools just make the pool work on all three races so that players that don't care about ranking can play any race and those who do but also off-race can spend all their bonus pool on their main race and then go off-race. You wouldn't have to 'mange' anything. Players race switch for fun afaik thats why I did it. You shouldn't have to look at it as a job.
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Race switching and off-racing are totally different things.
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Obiously. But the answer to both is one in the same. If someone wants to switch with that method they can, if someone wants to offrace they can. I personally full race switched only play Terran now. But sometimes I would like to play a couple games as Zerg.
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I would play Terran seriously since I wish I could play Terran on ladder.
But my Protoss rating would be a complete troll account. I would do the stupid shit and only fuck around on it.
This is an issue Blizzard has to realize, a lot of people will use these accounts to troll or smurf on.
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ladder resets doesnt reset ur mmr.. its just a placement game for ur league. the mmr is still the same as the previous season.
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I am gold zerg on SEA, I played some 2v2 / 3v3 games and a few customs against a bronze level mate and a week later I placed gold as protoss on my NA account. Up until the pro maybe high master level race switching is a non-issue as basic mechanics and game sense are all that really matters. Seems a bit like an unnecessary whine.
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On March 06 2012 21:34 naggerNZ wrote:
Why won't these threads die...
Look, if you want to play a different race without tanking your rating or waiting for your MMR to adjust, buy a new account. The vast majority of players don't switch races, and having three separate ladder positions for each race is an incredibly messy and inefficient solution to a very insignificant problem.
Maybe because that's an absurd solution (total ripoff) and because there is nothing inefficient or messy about separate race rankings...
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Off race smurfing is a pretty messy idea in my opinion, probably in Bliz's too. It's not like they have a perfect system for removing smurfing, but they tried to make every change they possibly could to that effect. It's one of the few clear design decisions in SC2 Bnet 2.0.
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On March 06 2012 23:18 BBQSAC wrote:
I am gold zerg on SEA, I played some 2v2 / 3v3 games and a few customs against a bronze level mate and a week later I placed gold as protoss on my NA account. Up until the pro maybe high master level race switching is a non-issue as basic mechanics and game sense are all that really matters. Seems a bit like an unnecessary whine.
Gold league is basically the noob league for people who can multi-task. There's absolutely no way you'll get into Diamond without a good understanding of build orders and the All-Ins you need to scout for.
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On March 07 2012 16:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 23:18 BBQSAC wrote:
I am gold zerg on SEA, I played some 2v2 / 3v3 games and a few customs against a bronze level mate and a week later I placed gold as protoss on my NA account. Up until the pro maybe high master level race switching is a non-issue as basic mechanics and game sense are all that really matters. Seems a bit like an unnecessary whine. Gold league is basically the noob league for people who can multi-task. There's absolutely no way you'll get into Diamond without a good understanding of build orders and the All-Ins you need to scout for.
You can get diamond without understanding jack about the game. Just sayin. :/
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You can get masters without understanding jack about the game. I've seen a friend of mine play Terran marine scv all in every game and end up in Masters at the end of Season 1. It was the most disgusting thing I seen that a build that takes no skill to execute could place you in the top league.
I was considering a second account so that I could ladder as Zerg, but I didn't because it is stupid to invest in $60 so your main account MMR does not falls down. I ended up playing customs with lower leveled players until I got bored of Zerg as a race and went back.
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On March 07 2012 16:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 23:18 BBQSAC wrote:
I am gold zerg on SEA, I played some 2v2 / 3v3 games and a few customs against a bronze level mate and a week later I placed gold as protoss on my NA account. Up until the pro maybe high master level race switching is a non-issue as basic mechanics and game sense are all that really matters. Seems a bit like an unnecessary whine. Gold league is basically the noob league for people who can multi-task. There's absolutely no way you'll get into Diamond without a good understanding of build orders and the All-Ins you need to scout for.
This is actually completely false. You don't need any real build orders or scouting whatsoever to get to diamond (or even higher). If you just play relatively safe and don't suck at macro you will be stomping diamonds. (Or obviously cheese to master, but I don't really count that as playing)
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I wonder if it'd be possible to open up a ranking for each race you play, so you'd be bronze 1v1 T, maybe silver 1v1 Z, and something like mid-bronze 1v1 P or something, this way you'd be playing against players which are similar to your ability to play that race and not against people who are similarly skilled to you.
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One huge loophole is it allows three players to ladder on one account, as long as they play different races...
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We purchased the right to have access to mutiplayer whenever we want. Even if someone does this, it wouldn't be at the same time so as far as I'm concerned, it's no loophole.
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Actually it would be really really cool. Because players would try to have a nice profile by being master with the three races, therefor they will play the 3 races and I think we should see a big skill improvement overall.
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I think the casual pseudo ladder is what makes a game like LoL so much more popular than SC2, apart from the whole pay for the game v free game aspect
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Yeah, I feel a lot more people would be willing to experiment and have fun just playing the game if this was implemented.
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So, has this issue "caught any eyes" from bliz guys yet?
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On March 08 2012 08:04 agahamsorr0w wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 16:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 06 2012 23:18 BBQSAC wrote:
I am gold zerg on SEA, I played some 2v2 / 3v3 games and a few customs against a bronze level mate and a week later I placed gold as protoss on my NA account. Up until the pro maybe high master level race switching is a non-issue as basic mechanics and game sense are all that really matters. Seems a bit like an unnecessary whine. Gold league is basically the noob league for people who can multi-task. There's absolutely no way you'll get into Diamond without a good understanding of build orders and the All-Ins you need to scout for. You can get diamond without understanding jack about the game. Just sayin. :/
You can get into masters without understanding jack shit too, just sayin.
I see a lot of people in masters who seem absolutely clueless about this game, it kinda blows my mind.
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i was high diamond switched to zerg, played 1 weeks of customs, now i am still high diamond, same level with my protoss...
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I really hope this get changed in the expo. I'd enjoy playing the other races but I don't want to sacrifice the ladder rank. It'd just mean I get easy games with my main race and hard/fair games with my offrace.
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On March 08 2012 08:56 FairForever wrote:
One huge loophole is it allows three players to ladder on one account, as long as they play different races...
Three players can ladder one account right now if they play the same race.
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Unless you're high masters/GM you won't lose much ranking doing a race switch. Your basic fundamentals of macro, micro, and general game sense stay with you from race to race. You can always do customs or team games to learn a new race also ~~
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Yeah, there should definitely be an option to play each race on one account. Would definitely helped the number of players in this game since right now the game is more suited to hardcore players who are willing to master one particular race instead of trying stuff out with all races.
I'd also like to learn more about terran and play them abit cause they seem fun, but I'm not gonna just abandon my main race, Zerg, cause I feel like testing another race for a while.
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Just saying, I'd probably troll people with my Terran if I had a separate ranking I could just leave at bronze. I'm sure others would too. I say its a good thing what we have right now. At least this way I'd be penalized by surrendering games all day by tanking my MMR, thats a pretty good disincentive.
In the end the ladder sorts itself out. If you're new to a race, you wont be good at it so expect to lose a lot before you get the hang of it.
There's enough hand-holding as it is with Blizzard games in general, I think some people should just meet them halfway by putting in the time.
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I actually would enjoy if there was a different ladder for each race. I would play a lot more.
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would like this a lot
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i would also like this alot!
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i played protoss since release... and i STILL dont have the terran/zerg 10 1v1 wins achievement.
fuck getting my zerg/terran skill up to masters by playing customs all day-- and i dont want to get demoted just for trying out a new race.
back in wc3, i'd just create another free account so my main doesnt get screwed up...
...and that was 10 years ago...
sigh.
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On February 27 2012 05:58 dAPhREAk wrote:
not enough competitive people switch races for such a ladder ranking system to be necessary.
Pretty sure that if there were separate MMRs for each race a shitton of people would play all races (at least I would). Ladder psychology 'n shit. That would also likely triple (not literally) most people's fun with the game. (and experience, everyone would get damn good at the game too by knowing each race)
When I think about all the good stuff blizzard could do and what we actually have, there's only one word describing my feelings: why?
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OPs like this are merely a result of a misunderstanding of the point of ladder. The point of ladder is not to have an official ranking system we can all go by to say who's the best, but merely a way of representing one's own rank and relative skill level to the rest of the players involved in the same system. The difference between these two ideas is that on one hand you have the feeling that your rank means something in the SC2 community, and on the other you have the relative value of your skill when compared on a mass scale - meaning that the point of the ladder is to compare one's former self to one's current self to gain an understanding if you're moving in the right direction or not when it comes to making certain choices in the game.
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there is no reason for blizzard to implement this. people who srsly want to play different races and are at decently level with one race would rather buy a new account to do this on. And even if a lot of people are not buying new accounts to play different races on as long as there is some thats profit for blizzard. So if they implement this its just more work for them, and less cash
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On April 16 2012 09:57 hoby2000 wrote:
OPs like this are merely a result of a misunderstanding of the point of ladder. The point of ladder is not to have an official ranking system we can all go by to say who's the best, but merely a way of representing one's own rank and relative skill level to the rest of the players involved in the same system. The difference between these two ideas is that on one hand you have the feeling that your rank means something in the SC2 community, and on the other you have the relative value of your skill when compared on a mass scale - meaning that the point of the ladder is to compare one's former self to one's current self to gain an understanding if you're moving in the right direction or not when it comes to making certain choices in the game.
That wasn't the point of the OP. The point was that there's no decent way for a mid or high level player to try out a new race without getting absolutely stomped, learning nothing and probably getting frustrated with the new race.
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Blizzard won't do it because then you get a situation where there are these barren divisions of players who aren't using the race they are placed with. They're doing everything in their power to keep divisions active and competitive. This would be the opposite of what they are trying to achieve.
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How about the ability which was in WC2, D1, D2, SC1, SC:BW and WC3 to be able to create new accounts?
I mean if games as old as 20 years had this features, why is it that the stupid battlecrap 2.0 doesn't have them?
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8751 Posts
How is a natural solution unrealistic? Either it's not natural or it's not a solution. Your writing is very unclear there.
I don't understand why you make a point about buying three copies of the game. Just because owning multiple copies of a game yields some new benefit does not mean that that benefit is something that ought to be enjoyed by people owning one copy of that game. This seems incredibly obvious to me for multiplayer games and yet you point out that it's a multiplayer benefit as if that makes it more absurd. I think the more absurd thing would be an advantage to owning multiple copies of a game for offline or single player modes.
In World of Warcraft, owning one copy of the game allows you to make multiple characters but not play them simultaneously. There are good reasons for this that I believe most MMO players respect enough that they do not protest the extra costs. They accept that people owning multiple copies of the game can experience and do things that people owning one copy cannot. Are those activities and experiences part of the game?
The thing that is logically indefensible here is a definition of what it means to "get everything out of [the game]". Noting that some benefit is possible with multiple copies of the game and impossible without multiple copies of the game does not give much insight.
You bought SC2 with the expectation that Blizzard was going to continue to add new features and content to the game via free patches. You think this feature qualifies as something that Blizzard should patch in. Make an argument to convince them to patch it in. Making a hypothetical argument as to why they haven't done it yet and then calling it unfair bullshit gets you nowhere. That maneuver is ridiculous.
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Sadly, Nony is right. Blizzard will not give you more bang for your bucks, because, well, it costs them to deliver, and you knew what you signed on when you bought the game. New stuff will be wrapped up in expansions.
As for the OP whining, I understand (I own two copies of SC2 just to have 2 races to play at different levels), but, well, it's just a corporate decision you have to swallow. And you know what, it makes sense, because 99% of people don't care if they cannot have multiple quasi-accounts for each race and random.
And the WoW analogy does not stand, because in Wow even a casual can hit the level cap fairly quickly, so it makes sense to allow multiple charactrers.
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hmmm Liquid'Nony Nice post, Though this post may have been rewritten that i am not aware of. I do not see why he got a warning upon reading it at this time it seem's as though he stated a very clear OPINION naturally i do not feel they have to add it though i would like them to and would step up to support such an OPTIONAL functionality.
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On April 16 2012 10:23 Liquid`NonY wrote:
You bought SC2 with the expectation that Blizzard was going to continue to add new features and content to the game via free patches. You think this feature qualifies as something that Blizzard should patch in. Make an argument to convince them to patch it in. Making a hypothetical argument as to why they haven't done it yet and then calling it unfair bullshit gets you nowhere. That maneuver is ridiculous.
Maybe this was 2 deep 4 me, but many threads and countless good arguments have been brought up for blizzard to implement various features, and yet nothing is going to happen any time soon (or has happened in a way too long time).
You may want to read the "A Declaration of Interdependence" thread, it's pretty relevant to the whole "assuming blizzard does things if they're given good reasons other than money" thing
edit: I do imply that I don't want to be fucked in the ass as a customer like "ant-1" above this
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I don't understand what the big deal is. Why not just play all three races on the same account? If you play multiple races equally your skill should be pretty much the same with all, and if you don't play them equally then you won't be playing offrace frequently enough to offset your rank by much. I ladder as terran from time to time and so far it hasn't even made a dent in my ranking. And even if it had, what would I care? Ladder points don't matter, and even if they did, I could easily get them back just by playing onrace again.
tl;dr: Just ladder offrace anyway. It won't cost you anything.
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On April 16 2012 10:41 iMPhantom wrote:
hmmm Liquid'Nony Nice post, Though this post may have been rewritten that i am not aware of. I do not see why he got a warning upon reading it at this time it seem's as though he stated a very clear OPINION naturally i do not feel they have to add it though i would like them to and would step up to support such an OPTIONAL functionality.
I think he was originally warned for an all caps lock title before a mod changed it.
I don't think you should have a ranking for each race. Is each ladder just the ladder of the best t/z/p? You end up with a complicated system that dilutes the skill rankings of each subsequent ladder. I wouldn't be opposed to being able to start fresh every so often (every 3 seasons or so) but this is even pushing it. Play games with whatever race you want...you need to be demoted if you want to switch races and you aren't at the same skill level as your previous race. After a month of retraining yourself, you should be back to where you were before.
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I would pay money to upgrade my account to be able to ladder separately. Yes it ought to be included by default, but companies love making "extra money" from DLC etc... well Blizzard, I authorize you to go ahead and sell this to me. And I'm the kind of person who NEVER pays for extras.
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On April 16 2012 10:39 ant-1 wrote:
Sadly, Nony is right. Blizzard will not give you more bang for your bucks, because, well, it costs them to deliver, and you knew what you signed on when you bought the game. New stuff will be wrapped up in expansions.
As for the OP whining, I understand (I own two copies of SC2 just to have 2 races to play at different levels), but, well, it's just a corporate decision you have to swallow. And you know what, it makes sense, because 99% of people don't care if they cannot have multiple quasi-accounts for each race and random.
And the WoW analogy does not stand, because in Wow even a casual can hit the level cap fairly quickly, so it makes sense to allow multiple charactrers.
His point was not playing them simultaneously not anything to do with more character slots.
I agree with Nony, you got what you paid for. Entitled egotistical kids expect more since they're spoilt little shits.
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I would sooooo play all 3 races if MMR was per race instead of per account...
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It's like this to encourage you to buy more accounts in the game.
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On April 16 2012 10:52 Zephos wrote:
I don't understand what the big deal is. Why not just play all three races on the same account? If you play multiple races equally your skill should be pretty much the same with all, and if you don't play them equally then you won't be playing offrace frequently enough to offset your rank by much. I ladder as terran from time to time and so far it hasn't even made a dent in my ranking. And even if it had, what would I care? Ladder points don't matter, and even if they did, I could easily get them back just by playing onrace again.
tl;dr: Just ladder offrace anyway. It won't cost you anything.
Seems like you do understand exactly what the big deal is, but you choose to assign a "shrug, who cares" attitude to it. Well... I think many people care a lot more than you do.
I'm mid-masters with zerg, I've spent many hours improving my game to achieve this skill level. If I want to start playing terran or protoss on ladder (where I'd be plat or low diamond at best), here is what I have to do:
1) waste hours starting and leaving games to tank my MMR until I get demoted to plat
2) be unable to play competitive games with my main race during the time I'm playing T or P
3) when I eventually want to play my main race again, I have to give up playing T or P entirely, and then waste hours farming wins against inferior opponents until I get repromoted to masters
I'm sorry, but it's a little bit of a big deal that I have to waste many hours of my life to manipulate a broken system just because I want to try a different race.
It would be extremely simple and easy to allow me to switch back and forth between Z and T with no time wasted and no extra effort required. Instead the current system requires choosing only one race at a time, and wasting many hours to make the change.
This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it?
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On April 16 2012 09:57 hoby2000 wrote:
OPs like this are merely a result of a misunderstanding of the point of ladder. The point of ladder is not to have an official ranking system we can all go by to say who's the best, but merely a way of representing one's own rank and relative skill level to the rest of the players involved in the same system. The difference between these two ideas is that on one hand you have the feeling that your rank means something in the SC2 community, and on the other you have the relative value of your skill when compared on a mass scale - meaning that the point of the ladder is to compare one's former self to one's current self to gain an understanding if you're moving in the right direction or not when it comes to making certain choices in the game.
Um, no. The point of the ladder is match you up against opponents of the same skill level as yourself, so that good competitive games are had by all.
If you have a high MMR and switch to another race where your MMR would be low, the ladder fails at its purpose. Hence the problem.
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On April 16 2012 10:57 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 10:39 ant-1 wrote:
Sadly, Nony is right. Blizzard will not give you more bang for your bucks, because, well, it costs them to deliver, and you knew what you signed on when you bought the game. New stuff will be wrapped up in expansions.
As for the OP whining, I understand (I own two copies of SC2 just to have 2 races to play at different levels), but, well, it's just a corporate decision you have to swallow. And you know what, it makes sense, because 99% of people don't care if they cannot have multiple quasi-accounts for each race and random.
And the WoW analogy does not stand, because in Wow even a casual can hit the level cap fairly quickly, so it makes sense to allow multiple charactrers.
His point was not playing them simultaneously not anything to do with more character slots. I agree with Nony, you got what you paid for. Entitled egotistical kids expect more since they're spoilt little shits.
But you're still going to buy expansions even after you've eaten the corporations shit, which will encourage them to threat their customers even more like a wallet for the least amount of work possible.
I can hardly believe your post is serious
This goes for all the other posts who want to give money to blizzard for things they can do in a few hours of work with 2 devs
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On April 16 2012 11:04 Chocobo wrote:
This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it?
If Blizzard allows different race rankings three players could play on the same account. What a dumb business decision by them if they did that.
Simply put if it really bothers you just play terran or protoss until you get demoted - you'll have the chance to play against much better players and see where your weaknesses are much more quickly.
I'm not a believer in huge race discrepancies, unless your skill is derived from large cheese strats or non-standard play. I played Zerg all the way to high Masters with no past RTS experience (took thousands of games) - when I played Terran and Protoss (on my second account) I got to low Masters immediately just through natural game mechanics.
The level of play shouldn't be that significantly different. You'll have to learn the timings, basic BOs, etc. - but the biggest parts of your game (game sense, macro) shouldn't leave.
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On April 16 2012 09:10 Jojo131 wrote:
Just saying, I'd probably troll people with my Terran if I had a separate ranking I could just leave at bronze. I'm sure others would too. I say its a good thing what we have right now. At least this way I'd be penalized by surrendering games all day by tanking my MMR, thats a pretty good disincentive.
In the end the ladder sorts itself out. If you're new to a race, you wont be good at it so expect to lose a lot before you get the hang of it.
There's enough hand-holding as it is with Blizzard games in general, I think some people should just meet them halfway by putting in the time.
Then you would stay at Bronze. I see no problem with that, it would only make the lowest level of the ladder a bit more troll-infested than it already as. Contrast that with, for ex., Diamond-level Zergs absolutely terrorizing everyone from Bronze to Diamond when learning a new race after deliberately tanking their ELO to bottom bronze, or switch from that "learning" race back to Zerg.
Alternatively, the ability of people to raise their skillcap with another race and in the process raise their investment in and knowledge of the game is only a plus for Blizzard.
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On April 16 2012 11:11 Snaphoo wrote:
Alternatively, the ability of people to raise their skillcap with another race and in the process raise their investment in and knowledge of the game is only a plus for Blizzard.
And when people start sharing accounts and Blizzard loses revenue, it's a minus for Blizzard.
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definitely needed, I had to leave about 20 games + before I can actually play TT;; (from plat mmr -> gold) in one of my accounts...
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Grohg
I think he was originally warned for an all caps lock title before a mod changed it.
I don't think you should have a ranking for each race. Is each ladder just the ladder of the best t/z/p? You end up with a complicated system that dilutes the skill rankings of each subsequent ladder. I wouldn't be opposed to being able to start fresh every so often (every 3 seasons or so) but this is even pushing it. Play games with whatever race you want...you need to be demoted if you want to switch races and you aren't at the same skill level as your previous race. After a month of retraining yourself, you should be back to where you were before.
Thanks for the response and your probably right on that account but i don't THINK you understood the overall sense i presume he was going for which is to say different skill rating's for your different races protoss-diamond zerg-gold terran-silver I believe your thinking matchmaking is an indefinite messure of your skill which i BELIEVE its not' just a way to get pared with people close to what your skill level is so it would function at variable's without causing the problem your thinking of. I also believe it adds more playability to the game and replay value which isn't taken into account on the sale's side of things this type of feature in my OPINION could even be used by low level players to increase the experience of the game
-iMPhantom-again maybe i'm wrong about sales and what not although as a coder and someone who's extremely familiar with servers and database mysql ect this really wouldn't take much more coding then it does to host profile pictures and there are several coding methods to split up memory usage
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On April 16 2012 11:10 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 11:04 Chocobo wrote:
This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it? If Blizzard allows different race rankings three players could play on the same account. What a dumb business decision by them if they did that.
People can share logins and pws right now if they want to. What's your point?
You could have a ladder account for each race in BW and in other RTS games. Were they all ruined by it?
Simply put if it really bothers you just play terran or protoss until you get demoted - you'll have the chance to play against much better players and see where your weaknesses are much more quickly.
"If it really bothers you to waste hours of your time, just waste hours of your time. Then you won't have to waste them anymore!"
I'm not a believer in huge race discrepancies...
The level of play shouldn't be that significantly different. You'll have to learn the timings, basic BOs, etc. - but the biggest parts of your game (game sense, macro) shouldn't leave.
Huge discrepancies, no. As a masters zerg I'm not going to be a clueless newbie stuck in bronze league as Terran. But there's still a significant difference between platinum and mid masters, and it requires hours of timewasting to drop down the ladder and even more to climb back up it.
Why do you feel that this timewasting is necessary? Why do you feel that it would harm the ladder to function like BW or other RTS ladders? There's just no good reason. The only reason ever given is "fuck you, stop whining and deal with it, no one cares about your problems".
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On April 16 2012 11:13 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 11:11 Snaphoo wrote:
Alternatively, the ability of people to raise their skillcap with another race and in the process raise their investment in and knowledge of the game is only a plus for Blizzard. And when people start sharing accounts and Blizzard loses revenue, it's a minus for Blizzard.
That's about as convienient as sharing your account with two other people of your skill level
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On April 16 2012 11:17 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 11:10 FairForever wrote:On April 16 2012 11:04 Chocobo wrote:
This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it? If Blizzard allows different race rankings three players could play on the same account. What a dumb business decision by them if they did that. People can share logins and pws right now if they want to. What's your point? You could have a ladder account for each race in BW and in other RTS games. Were they all ruined by it?
If I share an account right now, my ladder ranking gets ruined.
If I play zerg, and share with a terran and protoss player(s), it doesn't. See the issue?
Show nested quote +Simply put if it really bothers you just play terran or protoss until you get demoted - you'll have the chance to play against much better players and see where your weaknesses are much more quickly. "If it really bothers you to waste hours of your time, just waste hours of your time. Then you won't have to waste them anymore!" Show nested quote +I'm not a believer in huge race discrepancies...
The level of play shouldn't be that significantly different. You'll have to learn the timings, basic BOs, etc. - but the biggest parts of your game (game sense, macro) shouldn't leave. Huge discrepancies, no. As a masters zerg I'm not going to be a clueless newbie stuck in bronze league as Terran. But there's still a significant difference between platinum and mid masters, and it requires hours of timewasting to drop down the ladder and even more to climb back up it. Why do you feel that this timewasting is necessary? Why do you feel that it would harm the ladder to function like BW or other RTS ladders? There's just no good reason. The only reason ever given is "fuck you, stop whining and deal with it, no one cares about your problems".
This may sound crazy but not everyone appreciated the fact of players having 20 accounts in WC3 and screwing around.
What advantage does it give to Blizzard to allow multiple accounts? It makes no business sense. Stop feeling entitled to get whatever you want.
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On April 16 2012 11:19 Grackula wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 11:13 FairForever wrote:On April 16 2012 11:11 Snaphoo wrote:
Alternatively, the ability of people to raise their skillcap with another race and in the process raise their investment in and knowledge of the game is only a plus for Blizzard. And when people start sharing accounts and Blizzard loses revenue, it's a minus for Blizzard. That's about as convienient as sharing your account with two other people of your skill level
Not really - you don't think people would do it?
Slight difference - if you share your account with people at your skill level, well, you're going to have MMR issues. You don't have that with three separate MMRs.
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On April 16 2012 11:20 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 11:19 Grackula wrote:On April 16 2012 11:13 FairForever wrote:On April 16 2012 11:11 Snaphoo wrote:
Alternatively, the ability of people to raise their skillcap with another race and in the process raise their investment in and knowledge of the game is only a plus for Blizzard. And when people start sharing accounts and Blizzard loses revenue, it's a minus for Blizzard. That's about as convienient as sharing your account with two other people of your skill level Not really - you don't think people would do it? Slight difference - if you share your account with people at your skill level, well, you're going to have MMR issues. You don't have that with three separate MMRs.
If the people are of your skill they are of your MMR. The point is sharing an account with 2 people is so inconvienient only people who can't affort the game anyway would go through that much just to play a couple of games till it's the other guys turn to play
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two problems:
1)ladder will lose its competitiveness feel
2)the 2nd solution would be abused to hell
my solution: play customs, get good (you can find partners here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328110) and it is pretty to win at low level (until diamond its 80% of mechanics that win you the game)
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On April 16 2012 11:19 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 11:17 Chocobo wrote:On April 16 2012 11:10 FairForever wrote:On April 16 2012 11:04 Chocobo wrote:
This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it? If Blizzard allows different race rankings three players could play on the same account. What a dumb business decision by them if they did that. People can share logins and pws right now if they want to. What's your point? You could have a ladder account for each race in BW and in other RTS games. Were they all ruined by it? If I share an account right now, my ladder ranking gets ruined. If I play zerg, and share with a terran and protoss player(s), it doesn't. See the issue?
No, I don't. What does the race of the person you share an account with matter? Why do you assume everyone is part of a group of 3 different race players who all play at different times and would share accounts to save money? That would be an extremely rare occurrance.
What advantage does it give to Blizzard to allow multiple accounts? It makes no business sense. Stop feeling entitled to get whatever you want.
Why is your default position "whatever Blizzard originally set up is correct, and if you would prefer something different then it's a problem with you"? Why do you seem to only consider what's good for Blizzard, and not for the game? This hardcore pro-company standpoint from consumers always confuses me.
Anyway, to answer your question... Blizzard wants a large population of active players on the ladder, in particular for the reason of having a large player base to sell expansions to. It benefits Blizzard to retain more players by offering a more playable game with more accessible races to explore (and it also makes players very happy and more ready to buy HoTS).
Somehow you seem to assume it would be nothing but negative to Blizzard, and they'd instantly lose 2/3 of their sales because everyone would share accounts. I'm sorry but that's not a very realistic or sensible view.
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On April 16 2012 11:04 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 10:52 Zephos wrote:
I don't understand what the big deal is. Why not just play all three races on the same account? If you play multiple races equally your skill should be pretty much the same with all, and if you don't play them equally then you won't be playing offrace frequently enough to offset your rank by much. I ladder as terran from time to time and so far it hasn't even made a dent in my ranking. And even if it had, what would I care? Ladder points don't matter, and even if they did, I could easily get them back just by playing onrace again.
tl;dr: Just ladder offrace anyway. It won't cost you anything. Seems like you do understand exactly what the big deal is, but you choose to assign a "shrug, who cares" attitude to it. Well... I think many people care a lot more than you do. I'm mid-masters with zerg, I've spent many hours improving my game to achieve this skill level. If I want to start playing terran or protoss on ladder (where I'd be plat or low diamond at best), here is what I have to do: 1) waste hours starting and leaving games to tank my MMR until I get demoted to plat 2) be unable to play competitive games with my main race during the time I'm playing T or P 3) when I eventually want to play my main race again, I have to give up playing T or P entirely, and then waste hours farming wins against inferior opponents until I get repromoted to masters I'm sorry, but it's a little bit of a big deal that I have to waste many hours of my life to manipulate a broken system just because I want to try a different race. It would be extremely simple and easy to allow me to switch back and forth between Z and T with no time wasted and no extra effort required. Instead the current system requires choosing only one race at a time, and wasting many hours to make the change. This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it?
You wouldn't have to go to the trouble of all of this. First of all, why tank your MMR? Just play offrace with your current MMR and you will be able to face opponents of about the right skill. It's true, they will be a little better than you. But your mechanics from playing zerg should translate well enough that you still have a decent shot at beating your opponent. If not, you probably don't deserve the rank you have since you would've had to play abusively to get there without sufficient mechanics.
Also, you say that you would need to "waste hours farming" to get back to your previous rank. In making this statement, you have underestimated just how good blizzard's matchmaking system is. Allow me an anecdote to explain.
Usually I play the game for the sake of having fun. But there was a period in which I was so frustrated with my life that I took to the game as a refuge instead. My performance suffered as a result, and I went on a losing streak. A big losing streak. I won't go into exactly how prodigious this streak was, but suffice it to say that at the start I was top 8 masters, and by the end I was consistently playing diamonds. I was teetering on the edge of demotion (Which I'm actually grateful for, because it afforded me a game with Crota). Well, I stopped playing starcraft until I was ready to play the game for the right reasons. Do you know how long it took me to get back to where I was?
An hour. An hour and a half at most. My rank had decreased, but my skill had not. I didn't even need to cheese. That's how quick and easy it was to win back what I had lost. The matchmaking system is very good at knowing how skilled you are. The only reason it took you so long to reach mid masters is because you had to acquire the skill to do so. When you already have the skill, the process is quite expedient.
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On April 16 2012 11:35 Corsica wrote:
two problems:
1)ladder will lose its competitiveness feel
2)the 2nd solution would be abused to hell
Why would the ladder lose its competitive feel? Everyone would be competing to the best of their ability with various races. Where's the drawback?
What exactly do you think would be abused?
This really feels like a debate against a religious person about why homosexuality is evil. People seem to want to hold the "things are fine the way they are" position and will search for any obscure reason to justify it.
Blizzard could make millions of players happy, retain a larger active player base and sell more expansions... but no, they can't do it because 5 or 10 broke friends might try to share an account. Assuming they play all different races of course. Oh yeah, and they all have to play at different times of the day.
Give me a break.
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It would be cool to have but atm I think I'd prefer lan haha... pity I dont think they will ever do either of these =(
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On April 16 2012 11:57 Zephos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 11:04 Chocobo wrote:On April 16 2012 10:52 Zephos wrote:
I don't understand what the big deal is. Why not just play all three races on the same account? If you play multiple races equally your skill should be pretty much the same with all, and if you don't play them equally then you won't be playing offrace frequently enough to offset your rank by much. I ladder as terran from time to time and so far it hasn't even made a dent in my ranking. And even if it had, what would I care? Ladder points don't matter, and even if they did, I could easily get them back just by playing onrace again.
tl;dr: Just ladder offrace anyway. It won't cost you anything. Seems like you do understand exactly what the big deal is, but you choose to assign a "shrug, who cares" attitude to it. Well... I think many people care a lot more than you do. I'm mid-masters with zerg, I've spent many hours improving my game to achieve this skill level. If I want to start playing terran or protoss on ladder (where I'd be plat or low diamond at best), here is what I have to do: 1) waste hours starting and leaving games to tank my MMR until I get demoted to plat 2) be unable to play competitive games with my main race during the time I'm playing T or P 3) when I eventually want to play my main race again, I have to give up playing T or P entirely, and then waste hours farming wins against inferior opponents until I get repromoted to masters I'm sorry, but it's a little bit of a big deal that I have to waste many hours of my life to manipulate a broken system just because I want to try a different race. It would be extremely simple and easy to allow me to switch back and forth between Z and T with no time wasted and no extra effort required. Instead the current system requires choosing only one race at a time, and wasting many hours to make the change. This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it? You wouldn't have to go to the trouble of all of this. First of all, why tank your MMR? Just play offrace with your current MMR and you will be able to face opponents of about the right skill. It's true, they will be a little better than you. But your mechanics from playing zerg should translate well enough that you still have a decent shot at beating your opponent. If not, you probably don't deserve the rank you have since you would've had to play abusively to get there without sufficient mechanics.
Sorry, that just isn't how it works. I am not good with protoss. I vaguely understand how to 4 gate, but don't know any builds beyond that. It is absolutely pointless for me to play against zergs who can defend 4gates with ease and will hit 200 supply in 12 minutes if I leave them alone.
I don't really play terran at all. The last time I tried, I used a safe 2 rax into factory with bunker build, then floated out an expo. By the time I got my second base mining, I was at 27 workers to the zerg's 52 and he was taking a third. By the time I put together an army to go pressure him, his army was twice my size.
There is nothing to be learned from one-sided games like these. I'm not getting to practice my drops or unit control or macro if the game is over by the 10 minute mark. I might as well be a bronze player getting baneling busted by July, or learning basketball by playing 1 on 1 against Kobe Bryant. Getting my face smashed into the pavement teaches me nothing. Learning is done by playing against equal skill level opponents.
Also, you say that you would need to "waste hours farming" to get back to your previous rank. In making this statement, you have underestimated just how good blizzard's matchmaking system is. Allow me an anecdote to explain.
at the start I was top 8 masters, and by the end I was consistently playing diamonds. I was teetering on the edge of demotion (Which I'm actually grateful for, because it afforded me a game with Crota). Well, I stopped playing starcraft until I was ready to play the game for the right reasons. Do you know how long it took me to get back to where I was?
An hour. An hour and a half at most.
So it took you 90 minutes go from low masters to mid masters. Is this supposed to be an argument against me? Clearly it would take significantly longer than this to go from platinum to mid masters, 2-3 hours at the very least.
That's a significant amount of timewasting and extra effort that serves no purpose other than to make me more likely to quit playing Starcraft 2 in the long run. How anyone can call this a good thing is beyond me.
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It's not as simple as allowing one account to have 4 different MMRs, one for each race + random. I'm sure there are problems we are overlooking. For one thing, how would you account for GM league when a player like TLO can easily get GM with all 3 races?
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This is a huge problem. There is no reason for it to not be like in War3 except Blizzard new greediness. Especially when it is so hard to get meaningful custom games on a variety of maps with equally skilled opponents.
Early on Blizzard did state that if enough players mentioned it, they'd think about a new system.
This trend of putting DRMs everywhere or accounts limitations is a complete turn off. I don't know if they thought hard or if their greediness prevented their thinking. What is sure is that if this is not changed, I will not buy HOTS, and prolly just torrent the singleplayer.
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You're asking too much. Your rank should reflect your overall skills, regardless of race.
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Well I can think of one actually legitimate reason why the "separate mmrs for separate races" would be a bad thing. Personally, I played random up until I hit masters. I started to hit a wall, then chose Zerg. Because switching races didn't change my MMR, I got to keep going from where I left off as random. Having to win my way back up to masters as Zerg would have been a waste of time.
That said, I don't think this is enough of a reason not to have separate MMRs. I ended up buying a separate account to play Terran since my Zerg was up at mid to high-ish masters and I wanted to preserve my Zerg MMR. Then again, I had no problem buying a second account, so I guess Blizzard made a pretty good business decision for people like me.
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On April 16 2012 12:50 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
You're asking too much. Your rank should reflect your overall skills, regardless of race.
I wish I could get people who respond like this to answer in more detail.
Why do you think it's OK for people to have to either 1) waste hours de-ranking to offrace, then rank up on their main race again or 2) never play more than 1 race? Why is this situation a better option than allowing people to learn all 3 races?
So many answers simply say "screw you, you want too much, you're greedy" and give no reasons for it. Or am I just letting myself be trolled?
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Well that is bnet 0.2 for you, the technology just isn't there yet! Maybe if we give blizzard more money they might find a solution!
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So I guess this is another elaborate and terribly concealed rant about Battle.net and why each race should have a seperate ladder ranking? This is number #325 i think
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On April 16 2012 12:08 Capulet wrote:
It's not as simple as allowing one account to have 4 different MMRs, one for each race + random. I'm sure there are problems we are overlooking. For one thing, how would you account for GM league when a player like TLO can easily get GM with all 3 races?
only one battletag allowed in gm would solve that problem
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On April 16 2012 13:00 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 12:08 Capulet wrote:
It's not as simple as allowing one account to have 4 different MMRs, one for each race + random. I'm sure there are problems we are overlooking. For one thing, how would you account for GM league when a player like TLO can easily get GM with all 3 races? only one battletag allowed in gm would solve that problem
Buying a second account would solve the MMR problem too.
People like me have bought multiple accounts to play multiple races. Why would Blizzard limit their revenue?
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On April 16 2012 11:09 Grackula wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 10:57 MonkSEA wrote:On April 16 2012 10:39 ant-1 wrote:
Sadly, Nony is right. Blizzard will not give you more bang for your bucks, because, well, it costs them to deliver, and you knew what you signed on when you bought the game. New stuff will be wrapped up in expansions.
As for the OP whining, I understand (I own two copies of SC2 just to have 2 races to play at different levels), but, well, it's just a corporate decision you have to swallow. And you know what, it makes sense, because 99% of people don't care if they cannot have multiple quasi-accounts for each race and random.
And the WoW analogy does not stand, because in Wow even a casual can hit the level cap fairly quickly, so it makes sense to allow multiple charactrers.
His point was not playing them simultaneously not anything to do with more character slots. I agree with Nony, you got what you paid for. Entitled egotistical kids expect more since they're spoilt little shits. But you're still going to buy expansions even after you've eaten the corporations shit, which will encourage them to threat their customers even more like a wallet for the least amount of work possible. I can hardly believe your post is serious This goes for all the other posts who want to give money to blizzard for things they can do in a few hours of work with 2 devs
Yes, I will still buy expansions because I enjoy the franchise. Just because Blizzard can do this in a few hours work(even though you have no idea if it is a few hours or not since you didn't actually develop the game and all) you expect to be given more for what reason?
Why does Blizzard owe you this? They don't. They owe you nothing. Quite literally not a thing. You can have your game access revoked right now just because you look funny. If you think they owe you something then you're sorely mistaken.
Now would I like some of the proposed suggestions players have come up with? Yeah sure they're pretty sound and neat. But that's all they are. Suggestions. It's up to Blizzard if they want to read and implement your suggestion and if not then it's no skin off of their nose.
People should stop thinking that Blizzard owe them. If their games are shit and their game is absolute trash then we simply don't buy their shit. The second they see, for example, half the sales of HotS compared to WoL then they'll see 'ohh we fucked up somewhere along the lines' and then they'll try to rectify it. Right now though, they have a pretty solid player base. So pretty much, boycott their games if you don't like their business model, or if you don't feel like the game is worth it. Else just keep throwing suggestions in hopes that Blizzard will hear and that's fine, but don't act like you're entitled to anything.
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On April 16 2012 12:54 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 12:50 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
You're asking too much. Your rank should reflect your overall skills, regardless of race. I wish I could get people who respond like this to answer in more detail. Why do you think it's OK for people to have to either 1) waste hours de-ranking to offrace, then rank up on their main race again or 2) never play more than 1 race? Why is this situation a better option than allowing people to learn all 3 races? So many answers simply say "screw you, you want too much, you're greedy" and give no reasons for it. Or am I just letting myself be trolled?
Why de-rank yourself when you can just play and eventually get the hang of it? If you're demoted then that's fine you're obviously not as good with that race compared to your other race. I play terran and zerg and I'm perfectly fine sitting where I am. Granted my terran isn't as strong as my zerg but I still can beat other players in masters with both races because I actually took my time in leaguing to masters with zerg then race switching to terran to actually face players that were better then me so I could LEARN how to play it. Learning from losses is a lot easier then learning from wins so when you lose and lose and lose you can identify where you were going wrong and how to fix your issue you were having. Stop saying you waste hours of de-ranking when you have the option to play the game instead of just join and leave, because it's you who is wasting your own time.
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On April 16 2012 12:08 Capulet wrote:
It's not as simple as allowing one account to have 4 different MMRs, one for each race + random. I'm sure there are problems we are overlooking. For one thing, how would you account for GM league when a player like TLO can easily get GM with all 3 races?
I don't see your point if 5 people get top 20 GM then good for them its not like rank matters
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On February 27 2012 06:03 VoO wrote:
I really see your point, and I agree but they won't change anything because it will cost money. Furthermore, you shouldn't be concerned about ladder. I've often switched between races and purposely lost 50 games in a row to be in an adequate ladder position.
Btw, I wouldn't recommend custom games if you want to switch, since almost nobody plays customs for real. I won against Master players when I offraced Zerg at Platinum level.
Mind sharing those replays?
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On February 27 2012 06:10 Mutown wrote:Blizzard's response: Show nested quote +Hello Alex,
It is good to hear that you have made a post regarding this issue. At this point since customer service can not facilitate your request you will need to find fellow players who feel the same way. If you can get enough constructive feedback on this post it hopefully will catch the eye of our development team and get you a response.
I don't think that any amount of constructive feedback can get blizzard to change something that makes them more money or else we'd have LAN by now. I do agree with you and don't see why it would be such a big deal to just have multiple ladders for one account.
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One benefit is that it probably makes the overall population of players better. Battle.net knows what's in your best interest, and discourages you from practicing more than one race.
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I think if enough people complain about this and actually send feedbacks to blizzard, they will have to do something about it.
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On April 16 2012 13:10 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 12:54 Chocobo wrote:On April 16 2012 12:50 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
You're asking too much. Your rank should reflect your overall skills, regardless of race. I wish I could get people who respond like this to answer in more detail. Why do you think it's OK for people to have to either 1) waste hours de-ranking to offrace, then rank up on their main race again or 2) never play more than 1 race? Why is this situation a better option than allowing people to learn all 3 races? So many answers simply say "screw you, you want too much, you're greedy" and give no reasons for it. Or am I just letting myself be trolled? Why de-rank yourself when you can just play and eventually get the hang of it? If you're demoted then that's fine you're obviously not as good with that race compared to your other race. I play terran and zerg and I'm perfectly fine sitting where I am. Granted my terran isn't as strong as my zerg but I still can beat other players in masters with both races because I actually took my time in leaguing to masters with zerg then race switching to terran to actually face players that were better then me so I could LEARN how to play it. Learning from losses is a lot easier then learning from wins so when you lose and lose and lose you can identify where you were going wrong and how to fix your issue you were having. Stop saying you waste hours of de-ranking when you have the option to play the game instead of just join and leave, because it's you who is wasting your own time.
Standard anti-customer response. "Whatever you want is stupid, and your problems aren't important anyway".
Like I've already said, it's pointless for a platinum protoss to face a mid masters zerg who can shut down 4gates for free and will shove a 200 supply army down your throat at 12:00 if you try to macro up. There is no opportunity to learn and improve your game when against an opponent who is so far out of your league. This is precisely why the ladder matches up people of equal skill levels in the first place.
Playing out these hopeless games is a significantly larger waste of time than simply auto-leaving, and doesn't solve the problem of having to level back up when you go back to your main race either.
All of these problems can be easily solved by just allowing people to ladder with each race separately. No one on the "leave things alone" side seems to be able to explain why it's better to have a system that heavily discourages playing more than one race, instead of a system that allows it.
Every argument is just "stfu and deal with it", with the exception of the "but... um.. some broke people might share an account!" which is a pretty weak reason to leave things as is.
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On February 27 2012 06:45 esotericc wrote: Came here to post this, if people haven't realized yet I will make this extremely clear. Blizzard just simply doesn't care what you want, they like having the model that if you want a separate ladder ranking you need to buy the game again. Blizzard has little to no interest in catering to communities needs in battlenet. I usually wouldn't be so pessimistic on the matter but this has been talked to death in a billion threads. Blizzard just simply isn't going to do it.
As much as I would agree with Blizzard being a profit-modeled organization right now, I don't think that many people purchase extra copies of starcraft just for a new ladder rank. Seems like a change that should be made. Like the Blizzard employee responded, there needs to be a large, concentrated and noticeable amount of feedback for change to be done.
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I support this idea. I was a diamond protoss since release, after 800 wins switched to Terran, just to change it up a bit and got demoted to platinum. Would have liked to keep my old rank for protoss and maybe try zerg too. Nobody at blizzard cares though
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On April 16 2012 13:37 dgwow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 06:45 esotericc wrote:On February 27 2012 05:56 Spicy_Curry wrote:
the technology isnt there yet Came here to post this, if people haven't realized yet I will make this extremely clear. Blizzard just simply doesn't care what you want, they like having the model that if you want a separate ladder ranking you need to buy the game again. Blizzard has little to no interest in catering to communities needs in battlenet. I usually wouldn't be so pessimistic on the matter but this has been talked to death in a billion threads. Blizzard just simply isn't going to do it. As much as I would agree with Blizzard being a profit-modeled organization right now, I don't think that many people purchase extra copies of starcraft just for a new ladder rank. Seems like a change that should be made. Like the Blizzard employee responded, there needs to be a large, concentrated and noticeable amount of feedback for change to be done.
^^^^ This!
I've just sent a feedback to Bliz. Why don't you guys take a few second and do it too? And you can refer to this thread!
I have also taken the time to make a petition for this. If you care about this issue, sign the petition so we have something to show Bliz:
http://www.change.org/petitions/blizzard-entertainment-starcraft-ii-add-separate-mmrs-placement-matches-for-different-1v1-races
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On April 16 2012 13:04 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 13:00 Spicy_Curry wrote:On April 16 2012 12:08 Capulet wrote:
It's not as simple as allowing one account to have 4 different MMRs, one for each race + random. I'm sure there are problems we are overlooking. For one thing, how would you account for GM league when a player like TLO can easily get GM with all 3 races? only one battletag allowed in gm would solve that problem Buying a second account would solve the MMR problem too. People like me have bought multiple accounts to play multiple races. Why would Blizzard limit their revenue?
Well obviously you've already bought another account so of course you don't care about this.
Point is you shouldn't need to buy multiple copies of the game to manually circumvent serious flaws in the matchmaking system. If the point of the system is to pair you against people of similar skill levels, then it absolutely fails in doing that when players can have vastly different skill levels with different races. It only works if you choose to either keep all your races at a similar skill level or stick to a single race at a time. The system shouldn't be dependent on us to help it function correctly. As I see it, they certainly have some obligation to fix that.
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It would be pretty nice to have, but it's not completely nessicary.
I've switched races a few times since I was a bronzie, it turned out well.
Maybe it's because I played random often in team games.
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On April 16 2012 13:51 fengshaun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 13:37 dgwow wrote:On February 27 2012 06:45 esotericc wrote:On February 27 2012 05:56 Spicy_Curry wrote:
the technology isnt there yet Came here to post this, if people haven't realized yet I will make this extremely clear. Blizzard just simply doesn't care what you want, they like having the model that if you want a separate ladder ranking you need to buy the game again. Blizzard has little to no interest in catering to communities needs in battlenet. I usually wouldn't be so pessimistic on the matter but this has been talked to death in a billion threads. Blizzard just simply isn't going to do it. As much as I would agree with Blizzard being a profit-modeled organization right now, I don't think that many people purchase extra copies of starcraft just for a new ladder rank. Seems like a change that should be made. Like the Blizzard employee responded, there needs to be a large, concentrated and noticeable amount of feedback for change to be done. ^^^^ This! I've just sent a feedback to Bliz. Why don't you guys take a few second and do it too? And you can refer to this thread! I have also taken the time to make a petition for this. If you care about this issue, sign the petition so we have something to show Bliz: http://www.change.org/petitions/blizzard-entertainment-starcraft-ii-add-separate-mmrs-placement-matches-for-different-1v1-races
Is that your real name or did you just signed with your username ? ^^ Not a big fan of typing my personal stuff everywhere on the internet.
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On April 16 2012 13:58 probob wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 13:51 fengshaun wrote:On April 16 2012 13:37 dgwow wrote:On February 27 2012 06:45 esotericc wrote:On February 27 2012 05:56 Spicy_Curry wrote:
the technology isnt there yet Came here to post this, if people haven't realized yet I will make this extremely clear. Blizzard just simply doesn't care what you want, they like having the model that if you want a separate ladder ranking you need to buy the game again. Blizzard has little to no interest in catering to communities needs in battlenet. I usually wouldn't be so pessimistic on the matter but this has been talked to death in a billion threads. Blizzard just simply isn't going to do it. As much as I would agree with Blizzard being a profit-modeled organization right now, I don't think that many people purchase extra copies of starcraft just for a new ladder rank. Seems like a change that should be made. Like the Blizzard employee responded, there needs to be a large, concentrated and noticeable amount of feedback for change to be done. ^^^^ This! I've just sent a feedback to Bliz. Why don't you guys take a few second and do it too? And you can refer to this thread! I have also taken the time to make a petition for this. If you care about this issue, sign the petition so we have something to show Bliz: http://www.change.org/petitions/blizzard-entertainment-starcraft-ii-add-separate-mmrs-placement-matches-for-different-1v1-races Is that your real name or did you just signed with your username ? ^^ Not a big fan of typing my personal stuff everywhere on the internet.
It shouldn't matter whether you use your username or real name to sign, as long as there is a signature! And that would be my username broken into a first name and a last name!
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Separate ladder ranks would be a nice idea. I have no plans in switching from Zerg full-time, so it's not a *huge* deal, but I really would like to try a bit of Terran and Protoss out just for fun, and playing Customs really just don't feel the same to me. I don't get that rush of adrenaline, which is a huge reason I play SC2 in the first place.
If there were separate ladder ranks, I could off-race comfortably for a few games when I'm on a big losing streak on my "main."
Furthermore, this really doesn't seem like it'd be overly expensive for Blizzard to do? What do I know, no experience in this field.
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On April 16 2012 10:23 Liquid`NonY wrote:
How is a natural solution unrealistic? Either it's not natural or it's not a solution. Your writing is very unclear there.
I don't understand why you make a point about buying three copies of the game. Just because owning multiple copies of a game yields some new benefit does not mean that that benefit is something that ought to be enjoyed by people owning one copy of that game. This seems incredibly obvious to me for multiplayer games and yet you point out that it's a multiplayer benefit as if that makes it more absurd. I think the more absurd thing would be an advantage to owning multiple copies of a game for offline or single player modes.
In World of Warcraft, owning one copy of the game allows you to make multiple characters but not play them simultaneously. There are good reasons for this that I believe most MMO players respect enough that they do not protest the extra costs. They accept that people owning multiple copies of the game can experience and do things that people owning one copy cannot. Are those activities and experiences part of the game?
The thing that is logically indefensible here is a definition of what it means to "get everything out of [the game]". Noting that some benefit is possible with multiple copies of the game and impossible without multiple copies of the game does not give much insight.
You bought SC2 with the expectation that Blizzard was going to continue to add new features and content to the game via free patches. You think this feature qualifies as something that Blizzard should patch in. Make an argument to convince them to patch it in. Making a hypothetical argument as to why they haven't done it yet and then calling it unfair bullshit gets you nowhere. That maneuver is ridiculous.
You understand that the feature the OP requests was in each Blizzard games since 1993? SC2 that came out in 2010 didn't have the option to create multiple accounts or at least different ladder profiles for the different races.
I mean heck, why even have win/loose stats then, why even have ladders? Why not remove everything that games 20 years older had and call it ubernet 9999.
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On April 16 2012 10:10 resfirestar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 09:57 hoby2000 wrote:
OPs like this are merely a result of a misunderstanding of the point of ladder. The point of ladder is not to have an official ranking system we can all go by to say who's the best, but merely a way of representing one's own rank and relative skill level to the rest of the players involved in the same system. The difference between these two ideas is that on one hand you have the feeling that your rank means something in the SC2 community, and on the other you have the relative value of your skill when compared on a mass scale - meaning that the point of the ladder is to compare one's former self to one's current self to gain an understanding if you're moving in the right direction or not when it comes to making certain choices in the game. That wasn't the point of the OP. The point was that there's no decent way for a mid or high level player to try out a new race without getting absolutely stomped, learning nothing and probably getting frustrated with the new race.
And how so? If you're trying a new race out, you should get demolished. Becoming frustrated with gameplay because you lack the skills or knowledge neccesary isn't a ladder issue - it's a personal issue. If you care THAT much about ladder points in the first place, you should probably stop playing Starcraft. It's just ladder points, and in the end (for the most part), it means nothing, and again, is only a system that allows you to compare you to your former self. Using it for any other method (such as choosing who the best player is) doesn't make any sense because it's not built to find the best players. It's build to help you understand where you're at in the ladder of skill so you can improve.
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As someone who has tanked his rating more than once for various reasons, I can confirm that it does not take very many games to drop an account with 1000+ games to whatever level you want it to go down to. Also if you find yourself dropping down to silver with an off race and want to get back up to platinum you will find yourself matching against platinum players again after about 15-20 straight wins, which should be easy if your main race is at the platinum level. A minor inconvenience, which could be remedied, but it shouldn't be a big deal.
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Why would Blizz allowed multiple MMRs? Now you have to buy new game = more MONEY!
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I see no point in implementing 3 separate ladders. If you lose 20 games to get down to your off-race ranking so be it, it's not like you fed one person with 20 games, it's 20 people with 1 game, that won't really boost up their ranks. People care too much about their rank, really.
Instead of 3 ladders all we need is a reset button. Easy scripting. If you want to experiment, just swallow your pride and know it'll cost something if you want to do it on ladder.
EDIT - I mean, c'mon, are you off-racing to get better ranks or because you want to learn stuff. If it's the second option, you really shouldn't care about rank drop, as that's honestly quite normal when you do something new.
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On April 16 2012 16:36 freestalker wrote:
I see no point in implementing 3 separate ladders. If you lose 20 games to get down to your off-race ranking so be it, it's not like you fed one person with 20 games, it's 20 people with 1 game, that won't really boost up their ranks. People care too much about their rank, really.
Instead of 3 ladders all we need is a reset button. Easy scripting. If you want to experiment, just swallow your pride and know it'll cost something if you want to do it on ladder. A reset button would allow for easy smurfing: Reset your MMR, place bronze in placement and lose some more game, then crush the bronze players for your pleasure.
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funny how they don't want anyone to have more than 1 ID because they don't want people creating new characters and just bash through lower levels, but they're fine with someone going from high masters way down with his offrace and then roflstomping his way up.
everyone should have 3 ladder characters, when you choose your race and play a game, your points should go to the specific ladder character.
Or simply everyone should be able to make 2 accounts. that would be fine too
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On April 16 2012 15:52 TheMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 10:23 Liquid`NonY wrote:
How is a natural solution unrealistic? Either it's not natural or it's not a solution. Your writing is very unclear there.
I don't understand why you make a point about buying three copies of the game. Just because owning multiple copies of a game yields some new benefit does not mean that that benefit is something that ought to be enjoyed by people owning one copy of that game. This seems incredibly obvious to me for multiplayer games and yet you point out that it's a multiplayer benefit as if that makes it more absurd. I think the more absurd thing would be an advantage to owning multiple copies of a game for offline or single player modes.
In World of Warcraft, owning one copy of the game allows you to make multiple characters but not play them simultaneously. There are good reasons for this that I believe most MMO players respect enough that they do not protest the extra costs. They accept that people owning multiple copies of the game can experience and do things that people owning one copy cannot. Are those activities and experiences part of the game?
The thing that is logically indefensible here is a definition of what it means to "get everything out of [the game]". Noting that some benefit is possible with multiple copies of the game and impossible without multiple copies of the game does not give much insight.
You bought SC2 with the expectation that Blizzard was going to continue to add new features and content to the game via free patches. You think this feature qualifies as something that Blizzard should patch in. Make an argument to convince them to patch it in. Making a hypothetical argument as to why they haven't done it yet and then calling it unfair bullshit gets you nowhere. That maneuver is ridiculous. You understand that the feature the OP requests was in each Blizzard games since 1993? SC2 that came out in 2010 didn't have the option to create multiple accounts or at least different ladder profiles for the different races. I mean heck, why even have win/loose stats then, why even have ladders? Why not remove everything that games 20 years older had and call it ubernet 9999.
It's a different game, with a different model. If you want to play a different race, nothing in the system prevents you from playing it. It lets you play the entire game already. You just want to make it easier. Nothing's wrong with that.
These things are in the game because Blizzard wants you to have them, not because you are entitled to it as it's been in previous games.
Similarly, there is no obligation for whoever designed Battle.net 2.0 to improve upon the existing Battle.net 1.0. The develop will implement whatever he or she is told, or whatever he or she feels like. It's certainly much better for the community if the system built upon its previous success, but there is no obligation to do so whatsoever, and you are certainly not entitled to this for nothing.
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On April 16 2012 17:13 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 15:52 TheMatrix wrote:On April 16 2012 10:23 Liquid`NonY wrote:
How is a natural solution unrealistic? Either it's not natural or it's not a solution. Your writing is very unclear there.
I don't understand why you make a point about buying three copies of the game. Just because owning multiple copies of a game yields some new benefit does not mean that that benefit is something that ought to be enjoyed by people owning one copy of that game. This seems incredibly obvious to me for multiplayer games and yet you point out that it's a multiplayer benefit as if that makes it more absurd. I think the more absurd thing would be an advantage to owning multiple copies of a game for offline or single player modes.
In World of Warcraft, owning one copy of the game allows you to make multiple characters but not play them simultaneously. There are good reasons for this that I believe most MMO players respect enough that they do not protest the extra costs. They accept that people owning multiple copies of the game can experience and do things that people owning one copy cannot. Are those activities and experiences part of the game?
The thing that is logically indefensible here is a definition of what it means to "get everything out of [the game]". Noting that some benefit is possible with multiple copies of the game and impossible without multiple copies of the game does not give much insight.
You bought SC2 with the expectation that Blizzard was going to continue to add new features and content to the game via free patches. You think this feature qualifies as something that Blizzard should patch in. Make an argument to convince them to patch it in. Making a hypothetical argument as to why they haven't done it yet and then calling it unfair bullshit gets you nowhere. That maneuver is ridiculous. You understand that the feature the OP requests was in each Blizzard games since 1993? SC2 that came out in 2010 didn't have the option to create multiple accounts or at least different ladder profiles for the different races. I mean heck, why even have win/loose stats then, why even have ladders? Why not remove everything that games 20 years older had and call it ubernet 9999. It's a different game, with a different model. If you want to play a different race, nothing in the system prevents you from playing it. It lets you play the entire game already. You just want to make it easier. Nothing's wrong with that. These things are in the game because Blizzard wants you to have them, not because you are entitled to it as it's been in previous games. Similarly, there is no obligation for whoever designed Battle.net 2.0 to improve upon the existing Battle.net 1.0. The develop will implement whatever he or she is told, or whatever he or she feels like. It's certainly much better for the community if the system built upon its previous success, but there is no obligation to do so whatsoever, and you are certainly not entitled to this for nothing.
No, because if I knew bnet would be so crap and they didn't advertise it falsely as the next best thing since the coming of Christ, no one would have bought the game.
They need to include the features, because these were features from 20 years old games like warcraft 2. I don't know if you've seen Dota 2 or LOL or HON or Shogun 2, etc... with all the amazing multiplayer features and options.
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On April 16 2012 19:12 TheMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 17:13 Blisse wrote:On April 16 2012 15:52 TheMatrix wrote:On April 16 2012 10:23 Liquid`NonY wrote:
How is a natural solution unrealistic? Either it's not natural or it's not a solution. Your writing is very unclear there.
I don't understand why you make a point about buying three copies of the game. Just because owning multiple copies of a game yields some new benefit does not mean that that benefit is something that ought to be enjoyed by people owning one copy of that game. This seems incredibly obvious to me for multiplayer games and yet you point out that it's a multiplayer benefit as if that makes it more absurd. I think the more absurd thing would be an advantage to owning multiple copies of a game for offline or single player modes.
In World of Warcraft, owning one copy of the game allows you to make multiple characters but not play them simultaneously. There are good reasons for this that I believe most MMO players respect enough that they do not protest the extra costs. They accept that people owning multiple copies of the game can experience and do things that people owning one copy cannot. Are those activities and experiences part of the game?
The thing that is logically indefensible here is a definition of what it means to "get everything out of [the game]". Noting that some benefit is possible with multiple copies of the game and impossible without multiple copies of the game does not give much insight.
You bought SC2 with the expectation that Blizzard was going to continue to add new features and content to the game via free patches. You think this feature qualifies as something that Blizzard should patch in. Make an argument to convince them to patch it in. Making a hypothetical argument as to why they haven't done it yet and then calling it unfair bullshit gets you nowhere. That maneuver is ridiculous. You understand that the feature the OP requests was in each Blizzard games since 1993? SC2 that came out in 2010 didn't have the option to create multiple accounts or at least different ladder profiles for the different races. I mean heck, why even have win/loose stats then, why even have ladders? Why not remove everything that games 20 years older had and call it ubernet 9999. It's a different game, with a different model. If you want to play a different race, nothing in the system prevents you from playing it. It lets you play the entire game already. You just want to make it easier. Nothing's wrong with that. These things are in the game because Blizzard wants you to have them, not because you are entitled to it as it's been in previous games. Similarly, there is no obligation for whoever designed Battle.net 2.0 to improve upon the existing Battle.net 1.0. The develop will implement whatever he or she is told, or whatever he or she feels like. It's certainly much better for the community if the system built upon its previous success, but there is no obligation to do so whatsoever, and you are certainly not entitled to this for nothing. No, because if I knew bnet would be so crap and they didn't advertise it falsely as the next best thing since the coming of Christ, no one would have bought the game. They need to include the features, because these were features from 20 years old games like warcraft 2. I don't know if you've seen Dota 2 or LOL or HON or Shogun 2, etc... with all the amazing multiplayer features and options.
If you knew bnet would be so crap... no one would have ?
I didn't hear of any of these advertisements of Battle.net 2.0. And they have no obligation either way. You seem to be confusing what it means to be a good competitor with what the business owes its customers. It owes absolutely nothing to you. You are playing this game because you enjoy it. Why does it matter to Blizzard what other games have? They don't have to be a good competitor to the other games, and offer similar multi-player features. However, it would be a good business practice to do so.
It still doesn't owe you anything. You expected improvements. They never promised anything as far as I can tell. So you had no reason to expect these other than the fact it happened before. That's a bad assumption. Again, it doesn't matter what other games have. This is not that game. I expected it and want it. But I cannot say Blizzard owes it to me to update Battle.net.
The OP's argument is that there's a flaw in the game that can only be circumvented at the moment by buying multiple games. He suggests that Blizzad implement something so that you can experience the benefits of having multiple accounts in a single account. Saying "it's a multiplayer game and you shouldn't need to buy multiple copies to get the most out of it" is non-sense, and has no correlation at all. \
EDIT: You can make the argument that Blizzard needs to implement these features to stay competitive with League of Legends or any other multi-player game. But do not suggest that Blizzard owes its players this, please. Provide reasons (there are a lot, and many already known to the majority (rhetorical)) why implementing these would be helpful. Do not yell at Blizzard for not giving you things they never were going to.
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On April 16 2012 19:30 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 19:12 TheMatrix wrote:On April 16 2012 17:13 Blisse wrote:On April 16 2012 15:52 TheMatrix wrote:On April 16 2012 10:23 Liquid`NonY wrote:
How is a natural solution unrealistic? Either it's not natural or it's not a solution. Your writing is very unclear there.
I don't understand why you make a point about buying three copies of the game. Just because owning multiple copies of a game yields some new benefit does not mean that that benefit is something that ought to be enjoyed by people owning one copy of that game. This seems incredibly obvious to me for multiplayer games and yet you point out that it's a multiplayer benefit as if that makes it more absurd. I think the more absurd thing would be an advantage to owning multiple copies of a game for offline or single player modes.
In World of Warcraft, owning one copy of the game allows you to make multiple characters but not play them simultaneously. There are good reasons for this that I believe most MMO players respect enough that they do not protest the extra costs. They accept that people owning multiple copies of the game can experience and do things that people owning one copy cannot. Are those activities and experiences part of the game?
The thing that is logically indefensible here is a definition of what it means to "get everything out of [the game]". Noting that some benefit is possible with multiple copies of the game and impossible without multiple copies of the game does not give much insight.
You bought SC2 with the expectation that Blizzard was going to continue to add new features and content to the game via free patches. You think this feature qualifies as something that Blizzard should patch in. Make an argument to convince them to patch it in. Making a hypothetical argument as to why they haven't done it yet and then calling it unfair bullshit gets you nowhere. That maneuver is ridiculous. You understand that the feature the OP requests was in each Blizzard games since 1993? SC2 that came out in 2010 didn't have the option to create multiple accounts or at least different ladder profiles for the different races. I mean heck, why even have win/loose stats then, why even have ladders? Why not remove everything that games 20 years older had and call it ubernet 9999. It's a different game, with a different model. If you want to play a different race, nothing in the system prevents you from playing it. It lets you play the entire game already. You just want to make it easier. Nothing's wrong with that. These things are in the game because Blizzard wants you to have them, not because you are entitled to it as it's been in previous games. Similarly, there is no obligation for whoever designed Battle.net 2.0 to improve upon the existing Battle.net 1.0. The develop will implement whatever he or she is told, or whatever he or she feels like. It's certainly much better for the community if the system built upon its previous success, but there is no obligation to do so whatsoever, and you are certainly not entitled to this for nothing. No, because if I knew bnet would be so crap and they didn't advertise it falsely as the next best thing since the coming of Christ, no one would have bought the game. They need to include the features, because these were features from 20 years old games like warcraft 2. I don't know if you've seen Dota 2 or LOL or HON or Shogun 2, etc... with all the amazing multiplayer features and options. If you knew bnet would be so crap... no one would have ? I didn't hear of any of these advertisements of Battle.net 2.0. And they have no obligation either way. You seem to be confusing what it means to be a good competitor with what the business owes its customers. It owes absolutely nothing to you. You are playing this game because you enjoy it. Why does it matter to Blizzard what other games have? They don't have to be a good competitor to the other games, and offer similar multi-player features. However, it would be a good business practice to do so. It still doesn't owe you anything. You expected improvements. They never promised anything as far as I can tell. So you had no reason to expect these other than the fact it happened before. That's a bad assumption. Again, it doesn't matter what other games have. This is not that game. I expected it and want it. But I cannot say Blizzard owes it to me to update Battle.net. The OP's argument is that there's a flaw in the game that can only be circumvented at the moment by buying multiple games. He suggests that Blizzad implement something so that you can experience the benefits of having multiple accounts in a single account. Saying "it's a multiplayer game and you shouldn't need to buy multiple copies to get the most out of it" is non-sense, and has no correlation at all. \ EDIT: You can make the argument that Blizzard needs to implement these features to stay competitive with League of Legends or any other multi-player game. But do not suggest that Blizzard owes its players this, please. Provide reasons (there are a lot, and many already known to the majority (rhetorical)) why implementing these would be helpful. Do not yell at Blizzard for not giving you things they never were going to.
of course they owe it to the players, else would mean they falsely advertised the game. I guess you haven't watched or read not one single blizzcon video or article or interview where they promised the second coming of Chirst basically with bnet 2.
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Why not a reset button that can be clicked, once per season?
This would require you to play new placement matches?
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On April 16 2012 12:07 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 11:57 Zephos wrote:On April 16 2012 11:04 Chocobo wrote:On April 16 2012 10:52 Zephos wrote:
I don't understand what the big deal is. Why not just play all three races on the same account? If you play multiple races equally your skill should be pretty much the same with all, and if you don't play them equally then you won't be playing offrace frequently enough to offset your rank by much. I ladder as terran from time to time and so far it hasn't even made a dent in my ranking. And even if it had, what would I care? Ladder points don't matter, and even if they did, I could easily get them back just by playing onrace again.
tl;dr: Just ladder offrace anyway. It won't cost you anything. Seems like you do understand exactly what the big deal is, but you choose to assign a "shrug, who cares" attitude to it. Well... I think many people care a lot more than you do. I'm mid-masters with zerg, I've spent many hours improving my game to achieve this skill level. If I want to start playing terran or protoss on ladder (where I'd be plat or low diamond at best), here is what I have to do: 1) waste hours starting and leaving games to tank my MMR until I get demoted to plat 2) be unable to play competitive games with my main race during the time I'm playing T or P 3) when I eventually want to play my main race again, I have to give up playing T or P entirely, and then waste hours farming wins against inferior opponents until I get repromoted to masters I'm sorry, but it's a little bit of a big deal that I have to waste many hours of my life to manipulate a broken system just because I want to try a different race. It would be extremely simple and easy to allow me to switch back and forth between Z and T with no time wasted and no extra effort required. Instead the current system requires choosing only one race at a time, and wasting many hours to make the change. This is supposed to be a game. Why do I have to work for hours to be allowed to play it? You wouldn't have to go to the trouble of all of this. First of all, why tank your MMR? Just play offrace with your current MMR and you will be able to face opponents of about the right skill. It's true, they will be a little better than you. But your mechanics from playing zerg should translate well enough that you still have a decent shot at beating your opponent. If not, you probably don't deserve the rank you have since you would've had to play abusively to get there without sufficient mechanics. Sorry, that just isn't how it works. I am not good with protoss. I vaguely understand how to 4 gate, but don't know any builds beyond that. It is absolutely pointless for me to play against zergs who can defend 4gates with ease and will hit 200 supply in 12 minutes if I leave them alone. I don't really play terran at all. The last time I tried, I used a safe 2 rax into factory with bunker build, then floated out an expo. By the time I got my second base mining, I was at 27 workers to the zerg's 52 and he was taking a third. By the time I put together an army to go pressure him, his army was twice my size. There is nothing to be learned from one-sided games like these. I'm not getting to practice my drops or unit control or macro if the game is over by the 10 minute mark. I might as well be a bronze player getting baneling busted by July, or learning basketball by playing 1 on 1 against Kobe Bryant. Getting my face smashed into the pavement teaches me nothing. Learning is done by playing against equal skill level opponents. Also, you say that you would need to "waste hours farming" to get back to your previous rank. In making this statement, you have underestimated just how good blizzard's matchmaking system is. Allow me an anecdote to explain. Show nested quote +at the start I was top 8 masters, and by the end I was consistently playing diamonds. I was teetering on the edge of demotion (Which I'm actually grateful for, because it afforded me a game with Crota). Well, I stopped playing starcraft until I was ready to play the game for the right reasons. Do you know how long it took me to get back to where I was?
An hour. An hour and a half at most. So it took you 90 minutes go from low masters to mid masters. Is this supposed to be an argument against me? Clearly it would take significantly longer than this to go from platinum to mid masters, 2-3 hours at the very least. That's a significant amount of timewasting and extra effort that serves no purpose other than to make me more likely to quit playing Starcraft 2 in the long run. How anyone can call this a good thing is beyond me.
I guess this is just differing experience on our parts. Basically, my argument boils down to that offracing doesn't affect your performance by that much (And by that much, I mean high master can perform at low master level.) In my experience, this has proven to be true.
I also think it would prove true for most people. After all, I'm 2-3 as terran in my most recent offracing experience (which is pretty representative of most of my runs), and I have no indication that my offrace is better than the average offrace. You say that it would take 2-3 hours at least to go from platinum to mid master, and yet I would be willing to wager that for the grand majority of people, their offrace is not two full leagues below their on-race level. That just seems absurd to me.
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On April 16 2012 19:30 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 19:12 TheMatrix wrote:On April 16 2012 17:13 Blisse wrote:On April 16 2012 15:52 TheMatrix wrote:On April 16 2012 10:23 Liquid`NonY wrote:
How is a natural solution unrealistic? Either it's not natural or it's not a solution. Your writing is very unclear there.
I don't understand why you make a point about buying three copies of the game. Just because owning multiple copies of a game yields some new benefit does not mean that that benefit is something that ought to be enjoyed by people owning one copy of that game. This seems incredibly obvious to me for multiplayer games and yet you point out that it's a multiplayer benefit as if that makes it more absurd. I think the more absurd thing would be an advantage to owning multiple copies of a game for offline or single player modes.
In World of Warcraft, owning one copy of the game allows you to make multiple characters but not play them simultaneously. There are good reasons for this that I believe most MMO players respect enough that they do not protest the extra costs. They accept that people owning multiple copies of the game can experience and do things that people owning one copy cannot. Are those activities and experiences part of the game?
The thing that is logically indefensible here is a definition of what it means to "get everything out of [the game]". Noting that some benefit is possible with multiple copies of the game and impossible without multiple copies of the game does not give much insight.
You bought SC2 with the expectation that Blizzard was going to continue to add new features and content to the game via free patches. You think this feature qualifies as something that Blizzard should patch in. Make an argument to convince them to patch it in. Making a hypothetical argument as to why they haven't done it yet and then calling it unfair bullshit gets you nowhere. That maneuver is ridiculous. You understand that the feature the OP requests was in each Blizzard games since 1993? SC2 that came out in 2010 didn't have the option to create multiple accounts or at least different ladder profiles for the different races. I mean heck, why even have win/loose stats then, why even have ladders? Why not remove everything that games 20 years older had and call it ubernet 9999. It's a different game, with a different model. If you want to play a different race, nothing in the system prevents you from playing it. It lets you play the entire game already. You just want to make it easier. Nothing's wrong with that. These things are in the game because Blizzard wants you to have them, not because you are entitled to it as it's been in previous games. Similarly, there is no obligation for whoever designed Battle.net 2.0 to improve upon the existing Battle.net 1.0. The develop will implement whatever he or she is told, or whatever he or she feels like. It's certainly much better for the community if the system built upon its previous success, but there is no obligation to do so whatsoever, and you are certainly not entitled to this for nothing. No, because if I knew bnet would be so crap and they didn't advertise it falsely as the next best thing since the coming of Christ, no one would have bought the game. They need to include the features, because these were features from 20 years old games like warcraft 2. I don't know if you've seen Dota 2 or LOL or HON or Shogun 2, etc... with all the amazing multiplayer features and options. If you knew bnet would be so crap... no one would have ? I didn't hear of any of these advertisements of Battle.net 2.0. And they have no obligation either way. You seem to be confusing what it means to be a good competitor with what the business owes its customers. It owes absolutely nothing to you. You are playing this game because you enjoy it. Why does it matter to Blizzard what other games have? They don't have to be a good competitor to the other games, and offer similar multi-player features. However, it would be a good business practice to do so. It still doesn't owe you anything. You expected improvements. They never promised anything as far as I can tell. So you had no reason to expect these other than the fact it happened before. That's a bad assumption. Again, it doesn't matter what other games have. This is not that game. I expected it and want it. But I cannot say Blizzard owes it to me to update Battle.net. The OP's argument is that there's a flaw in the game that can only be circumvented at the moment by buying multiple games. He suggests that Blizzad implement something so that you can experience the benefits of having multiple accounts in a single account. Saying "it's a multiplayer game and you shouldn't need to buy multiple copies to get the most out of it" is non-sense, and has no correlation at all. \ EDIT: You can make the argument that Blizzard needs to implement these features to stay competitive with League of Legends or any other multi-player game. But do not suggest that Blizzard owes its players this, please. Provide reasons (there are a lot, and many already known to the majority (rhetorical)) why implementing these would be helpful. Do not yell at Blizzard for not giving you things they never were going to.
You are the customer. If you never complain even though you are being treated like shit companies will just keep treating you like shit because they know you wouldn't complain after buying their next product. And you will buy it, Blizzard wouldn't even have to fix bnet for people to buy HotS. If no one complained we'd probably get the same fucking UI for another 50 bucks, and who are we to complain then? Entitled consumers?
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8751 Posts
On April 16 2012 15:52 TheMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 10:23 Liquid`NonY wrote:
How is a natural solution unrealistic? Either it's not natural or it's not a solution. Your writing is very unclear there.
I don't understand why you make a point about buying three copies of the game. Just because owning multiple copies of a game yields some new benefit does not mean that that benefit is something that ought to be enjoyed by people owning one copy of that game. This seems incredibly obvious to me for multiplayer games and yet you point out that it's a multiplayer benefit as if that makes it more absurd. I think the more absurd thing would be an advantage to owning multiple copies of a game for offline or single player modes.
In World of Warcraft, owning one copy of the game allows you to make multiple characters but not play them simultaneously. There are good reasons for this that I believe most MMO players respect enough that they do not protest the extra costs. They accept that people owning multiple copies of the game can experience and do things that people owning one copy cannot. Are those activities and experiences part of the game?
The thing that is logically indefensible here is a definition of what it means to "get everything out of [the game]". Noting that some benefit is possible with multiple copies of the game and impossible without multiple copies of the game does not give much insight.
You bought SC2 with the expectation that Blizzard was going to continue to add new features and content to the game via free patches. You think this feature qualifies as something that Blizzard should patch in. Make an argument to convince them to patch it in. Making a hypothetical argument as to why they haven't done it yet and then calling it unfair bullshit gets you nowhere. That maneuver is ridiculous. You understand that the feature the OP requests was in each Blizzard games since 1993? SC2 that came out in 2010 didn't have the option to create multiple accounts or at least different ladder profiles for the different races. I mean heck, why even have win/loose stats then, why even have ladders? Why not remove everything that games 20 years older had and call it ubernet 9999.
Your post has nothing to do with mine. Don't quote my post just so more people will read yours. And if you don't know why b.net records stats and has ladders, just stop posting for a few years. These issues are way above your head.
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On April 16 2012 16:46 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 16:36 freestalker wrote:
I see no point in implementing 3 separate ladders. If you lose 20 games to get down to your off-race ranking so be it, it's not like you fed one person with 20 games, it's 20 people with 1 game, that won't really boost up their ranks. People care too much about their rank, really.
Instead of 3 ladders all we need is a reset button. Easy scripting. If you want to experiment, just swallow your pride and know it'll cost something if you want to do it on ladder. A reset button would allow for easy smurfing: Reset your MMR, place bronze in placement and lose some more game, then crush the bronze players for your pleasure.
So what, when I bought my SC2 I placed to bronze on purpose and then went 20 wins until I finally lost to some diamond player. Are you going to sue me? Was it fun? Yes. Would I do it again? Possibly, but it'd be boring if I was doing it over and over. If you had an offrace ladder option you'd be owning bronze players just because of your mechanics.. what's the difference? those 20 games until your MMR gets calibrated? What a joke.
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i would dislike if i would have 3 different rankings for each race on 1 account. Would make playing random without random less fun.
Not everyone wants the same things, so you can't make everyone happy. And things like this get changed if the majority wants it. Not if 2% of the whole player base wants it
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If you wanna learn a race play custom games, it's rather easy. Or play FFA or something else unrated.
Plus it's not like ANYONE that is Master's League with ANY race will be something like Silver with another race.
At maximum they will be one league below, if they are low in their leagues (i.e. low Diamond Player would be Platinum).
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I don't understand. Is your ladder rank so important to you that you are unwilling to sacrifice it, even temporarily, to work towards becoming a better player? Does the 30 minutes it takes to leave games and tank your rating too much time? Sure, separate ranks for each race would be nice, but it is far from impossible to do it on your own.
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Play custom games if you are trying out a new race; that is what they are there for.
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On April 16 2012 23:27 RubiksCube wrote:
If you wanna learn a race play custom games, it's rather easy. Or play FFA or something else unrated.
Plus it's not like ANYONE that is Master's League with ANY race will be something like Silver with another race.
At maximum they will be one league below, if they are low in their leagues (i.e. low Diamond Player would be Platinum).
Not true. I was a rather high Master level toss, quit for a few months, came back trying terran having NEVER played it before, and placed in Gold. It didn't take more than a few days for me to reach Diamond level, and a week and a half later I'm Masters terran...but placing in Gold league from top masters is definitely a counterexample of your argument here.
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To the OP, what do you want? Having 3 ranks for 3 races is a terrible idea and allows for having one "real" account, and 2 smurf accounts.
However, I don't think Blizzard should use your current MMR when you switch race. If your MMR is 500, and you have only played one race, then Blizzard should track another MMR for the other races, which starts off lower, say 300, and this amount would be determined by a model of the drop in skill of an average player switching races.
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Up to masters, you mechanics will keep you to at the same ranking more or less. I learned Zerg as a diamond protoss player and could beat players my own level within 5 games.
Alternatively try learning through customs with friends etc?
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Would like to see three different mmr. I am master protoss and i would like to play once in a while zerg, but my zerg is max high platinum. I try to play 2v2 as a zerg but its just not enough practice. I tried to play 1v1 as zerg but after losing 25+ games in a row and still not having a chance in zvt or zvz so I gave up and played toss instead. And I dont have any friends that are active (play at least every week) at around plat/low dia level. And I dont want to search for active people that would play with me when I want to :/
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On April 16 2012 23:46 Alem wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 23:27 RubiksCube wrote:
If you wanna learn a race play custom games, it's rather easy. Or play FFA or something else unrated.
Plus it's not like ANYONE that is Master's League with ANY race will be something like Silver with another race.
At maximum they will be one league below, if they are low in their leagues (i.e. low Diamond Player would be Platinum). Not true. I was a rather high Master level toss, quit for a few months, came back trying terran having NEVER played it before, and placed in Gold. It didn't take more than a few days for me to reach Diamond level, and a week and a half later I'm Masters terran...but placing in Gold league from top masters is definitely a counterexample of your argument here.
Except you quit for a few months...If you came back playing protoss instead do you think you'd still be playing at masters level? You might not get demoted all the way to gold (or demoted at all considering the system), but you should notice that you aren't as good as you once were.
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I think this issue can be compared to (and forgive me, for all you LoL haters out there) the ranked and normal games in League of Legends. Comparing Ranked games with ladder and custom games with Normals. When you want to try a new race, Ideally, I think you should try it, in customs, with a friend. The same way you would try new champions and builds in normals, and not ranked. Now if you don't have a friend to practice with, I can see where problems can arise. Playing against the A.I. sometimes isn't good practice but if you really care that much about your ladder rank just do customs with the new race.
While I do agree that race based ladder could possibly work, if it doesn't get implemented, consider custom games a work around and just practice with your friend. Practice with your friend can even sometimes be better than just laddering.
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I understand the issue, the op is talking about.
Two weeks ago I switched to Random and got demoted to diamond pretty fast.
Because the skill gap between my races is that high, I win about all of my games as zerg and lose 3 out of 4 games as protoss.
So it is annoying for me and my opponents aswell, because I totally crush the mid diamond players I am paired with, if I am lucky with the race i get.
But I don't think the system needs a change, because for me it is way more fun to play against better enemies with my weakest race, even if I lose most of the games.
Additionally, from my point the system is pretty fast in responding to your skill. For example, if I'm on a Protoss streak, I have to face Low Diamonds/Plats and if I get Zerg often, I play vs High Diamond/Low Masters.
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To the people who are suggesting to play customs, have you ever tried the custom game system yourself?
One game a bronze player joins your game, the second a master, third bronze, etc. It's a complete disaster, your entire time is wasted and you learn nothing out of it.
The same way they gave 2 accounts in PTR, they can do it in your main region too. Just one of the many things they have messed up in Starcraft 2.
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On April 16 2012 23:46 Alem wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 23:27 RubiksCube wrote:
If you wanna learn a race play custom games, it's rather easy. Or play FFA or something else unrated.
Plus it's not like ANYONE that is Master's League with ANY race will be something like Silver with another race.
At maximum they will be one league below, if they are low in their leagues (i.e. low Diamond Player would be Platinum). Not true. I was a rather high Master level toss, quit for a few months, came back trying terran having NEVER played it before, and placed in Gold. It didn't take more than a few days for me to reach Diamond level, and a week and a half later I'm Masters terran...but placing in Gold league from top masters is definitely a counterexample of your argument here.
Actually its not a counterargument, because you werent gold level. Otherwise you wouldnt have been promoted in a couple of days. If anything your story is proof for my point as you were back to masters in about 2 weeks.
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On April 17 2012 00:59 MrLion wrote:
To the people who are suggesting to play customs, have you ever tried the custom game system yourself?
One game a bronze player joins your game, the second a master, third bronze, etc. It's a complete disaster, your entire time is wasted and you learn nothing out of it.
The same way they gave 2 accounts in PTR, they can do it in your main region too. Just one of the many things they have messed up in Starcraft 2.
They could also give you the game for free, but that doesn't mean they should.
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This exact topic was discussed and posted on both Team Liquid and the Bnet forums. There is even a poll on what people would prefer. No one seemed to care enough on battle.net about this feature to post anything beyond 4 replies.
Please check here:
Multiple 1v1 ranks and the future of the ladder
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On April 17 2012 00:59 MrLion wrote:
To the people who are suggesting to play customs, have you ever tried the custom game system yourself?
One game a bronze player joins your game, the second a master, third bronze, etc. It's a complete disaster, your entire time is wasted and you learn nothing out of it.
The same way they gave 2 accounts in PTR, they can do it in your main region too. Just one of the many things they have messed up in Starcraft 2.
That's exactly how i learned to play the other races. Nothing bad about playing against players of different skill levels and watching the replay afterwards.
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On February 27 2012 05:58 dAPhREAk wrote:
not enough competitive people switch races for such a ladder ranking system to be necessary.
People may not switch now, but for many the main reason they don't switch or even try out another race is because of the ranking situation. If there were a seperate ladder for each race, people would much more readily off-race, either for fun, for superior knowledge of that race, or to try out with the possibility of switching permanently.
Although I agree that such a system isn't necessary, it certainly would be beneficial to the game experience.
On April 16 2012 23:20 FeyFey wrote:
i would dislike if i would have 3 different rankings for each race on 1 account. Would make playing random without random less fun.
Not everyone wants the same things, so you can't make everyone happy. And things like this get changed if the majority wants it. Not if 2% of the whole player base wants it
Could you please explain to me how playing random without random would be less fun with seperate rankings.
Also, I would like to see the stats that show only 2% of the player base wants this.
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I would very much like to be able to playe the other races for fun. Now it is only possible in FFA's and team games.
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Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
There is absolutely no way to judge what level offrace is a player representing, so the current state is the best. What would you expect? Different league and rank for different races? So master zerg player switches to terran to bash on some bronzies?
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On April 16 2012 23:19 freestalker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 16:46 [F_]aths wrote:On April 16 2012 16:36 freestalker wrote:
I see no point in implementing 3 separate ladders. If you lose 20 games to get down to your off-race ranking so be it, it's not like you fed one person with 20 games, it's 20 people with 1 game, that won't really boost up their ranks. People care too much about their rank, really.
Instead of 3 ladders all we need is a reset button. Easy scripting. If you want to experiment, just swallow your pride and know it'll cost something if you want to do it on ladder. A reset button would allow for easy smurfing: Reset your MMR, place bronze in placement and lose some more game, then crush the bronze players for your pleasure. So what, when I bought my SC2 I placed to bronze on purpose and then went 20 wins until I finally lost to some diamond player. Are you going to sue me? Was it fun? Yes. Would I do it again? Possibly, but it'd be boring if I was doing it over and over. If you had an offrace ladder option you'd be owning bronze players just because of your mechanics.. what's the difference? those 20 games until your MMR gets calibrated? What a joke.
You can do it once. If you want to do it again you have to lose your way down. With a reset button you could endlessly stomp bronzies. In WC3 I considered smurfing a big issue for players like me. WC3 even had a mechanism to prevent insta-smurfs, since a new player had an ELL (expected ladder level) of 25 (out of 50) but still many guys created a new account, lost some games and the began to smurf.
I had some games "won" because of the instant leave of the opponent who was smurfing his ranking down and got often crushed by smurfs. Not fun.
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On February 27 2012 05:56 Spicy_Curry wrote:
the technology isnt there yet
Yeah, identifying what race a player is using with one line in an algorithm for the matchmaker is cutting edge technology..
They should simply add a separate ladder ranking for each player, one for terran, one for zerg, one for toss, one for random. Simples.
Personally I couldnt give a damn about ladder ranking itself, but for those who do I guess it would and should show all 3 race rankings on their profile page.
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I went from masters to plat from switching from Z to T. I dont understand the problem.
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Allowing people to have multiple characters would also solve this problem, since people could play on a second account if they're offracing or trying something out. I mean, you can do that now if you buy the game again, but that's dumb.
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If you don't want to lose ladder points, then play customs with your new race until you are comfortable. Or just buy a new game if it really is that big of a deal.
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On April 16 2012 20:20 TheMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 19:30 Blisse wrote:On April 16 2012 19:12 TheMatrix wrote:On April 16 2012 17:13 Blisse wrote:On April 16 2012 15:52 TheMatrix wrote:On April 16 2012 10:23 Liquid`NonY wrote:
How is a natural solution unrealistic? Either it's not natural or it's not a solution. Your writing is very unclear there.
I don't understand why you make a point about buying three copies of the game. Just because owning multiple copies of a game yields some new benefit does not mean that that benefit is something that ought to be enjoyed by people owning one copy of that game. This seems incredibly obvious to me for multiplayer games and yet you point out that it's a multiplayer benefit as if that makes it more absurd. I think the more absurd thing would be an advantage to owning multiple copies of a game for offline or single player modes.
In World of Warcraft, owning one copy of the game allows you to make multiple characters but not play them simultaneously. There are good reasons for this that I believe most MMO players respect enough that they do not protest the extra costs. They accept that people owning multiple copies of the game can experience and do things that people owning one copy cannot. Are those activities and experiences part of the game?
The thing that is logically indefensible here is a definition of what it means to "get everything out of [the game]". Noting that some benefit is possible with multiple copies of the game and impossible without multiple copies of the game does not give much insight.
You bought SC2 with the expectation that Blizzard was going to continue to add new features and content to the game via free patches. You think this feature qualifies as something that Blizzard should patch in. Make an argument to convince them to patch it in. Making a hypothetical argument as to why they haven't done it yet and then calling it unfair bullshit gets you nowhere. That maneuver is ridiculous. You understand that the feature the OP requests was in each Blizzard games since 1993? SC2 that came out in 2010 didn't have the option to create multiple accounts or at least different ladder profiles for the different races. I mean heck, why even have win/loose stats then, why even have ladders? Why not remove everything that games 20 years older had and call it ubernet 9999. It's a different game, with a different model. If you want to play a different race, nothing in the system prevents you from playing it. It lets you play the entire game already. You just want to make it easier. Nothing's wrong with that. These things are in the game because Blizzard wants you to have them, not because you are entitled to it as it's been in previous games. Similarly, there is no obligation for whoever designed Battle.net 2.0 to improve upon the existing Battle.net 1.0. The develop will implement whatever he or she is told, or whatever he or she feels like. It's certainly much better for the community if the system built upon its previous success, but there is no obligation to do so whatsoever, and you are certainly not entitled to this for nothing. No, because if I knew bnet would be so crap and they didn't advertise it falsely as the next best thing since the coming of Christ, no one would have bought the game. They need to include the features, because these were features from 20 years old games like warcraft 2. I don't know if you've seen Dota 2 or LOL or HON or Shogun 2, etc... with all the amazing multiplayer features and options. If you knew bnet would be so crap... no one would have ? I didn't hear of any of these advertisements of Battle.net 2.0. And they have no obligation either way. You seem to be confusing what it means to be a good competitor with what the business owes its customers. It owes absolutely nothing to you. You are playing this game because you enjoy it. Why does it matter to Blizzard what other games have? They don't have to be a good competitor to the other games, and offer similar multi-player features. However, it would be a good business practice to do so. It still doesn't owe you anything. You expected improvements. They never promised anything as far as I can tell. So you had no reason to expect these other than the fact it happened before. That's a bad assumption. Again, it doesn't matter what other games have. This is not that game. I expected it and want it. But I cannot say Blizzard owes it to me to update Battle.net. The OP's argument is that there's a flaw in the game that can only be circumvented at the moment by buying multiple games. He suggests that Blizzad implement something so that you can experience the benefits of having multiple accounts in a single account. Saying "it's a multiplayer game and you shouldn't need to buy multiple copies to get the most out of it" is non-sense, and has no correlation at all. \ EDIT: You can make the argument that Blizzard needs to implement these features to stay competitive with League of Legends or any other multi-player game. But do not suggest that Blizzard owes its players this, please. Provide reasons (there are a lot, and many already known to the majority (rhetorical)) why implementing these would be helpful. Do not yell at Blizzard for not giving you things they never were going to. of course they owe it to the players, else would mean they falsely advertised the game. I guess you haven't watched or read not one single blizzcon video or article or interview where they promised the second coming of Chirst basically with bnet 2.
When did blizzard ever promise us multiple ladders per account? Sure they hyped up BNet and it's not exactly as great as we want it, but you are just making stuff up and saying blizzard failed to deliver. At no time did they say that you can have a ladder for each race. If you disagree then provide a link to the source. Sure that existed in BW, but I didn't shell out $50 for BW two years ago. I bought sc2.
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Your offrace can't possibly be more than a league lower than what you currently are unless you cheesed your way to X-league without picking up any game fundamentals that translate to all three races. This talk about MMR tanking is silly, you'll probably end up playing similarly (if not slightly lower) skilled players with your offrace anyways.
I'd be more concerned about all the Bronze league players who would hate playing this game if everyone suddenly got some magic "reset" feature that existed for all the vets to troll lower leagues.
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meh, i switched to toss last week from terran, and im actually playing higher ranked opponents and im getting a better ladder rank. I think that the whole, diamond terran but his zerg is silver level analogy is off, i mean, you dont have any experience with the other 2 races even though you play them 66% of the time? at most it would be high diamond terran to low diamond/high plat level zerg, the skill level doesn't drop that dramatically imo, and adding the 3 diffrenent race ladder ranks would be way confusing, did i just beat a gold terran. or is he a high plat toss? or a bronze zerg.
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The option should be there, because it was there in all previous Blizzard games since 1993.
You should be able to create multiple account and/or have different ladder stats for each race, its very simple concept.
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How is playing against far better players a 'waste of time'? Might be frustrating but its the best way to learn.
Furthermore, there are standard RTS skills that cross over to any race even if you only stuck to one of them the whole time before. If someone is a diamond terran for instance, if they suddenly switched to toss they would still be able to beat people one or two leagues lower at the least.
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Now that I think about it it seems pretty silly that we cant quite get the full value out of this game due to fear of playing 1v1 with out your main race...Like I've played terran for almost the whole time and I'm F***ing terrible with the other races. It would be nice to have different accounts/stats for other races.
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Canada16217 Posts
This needs to happen IMO.
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On April 17 2012 01:36 TigerKarl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 00:59 MrLion wrote:
To the people who are suggesting to play customs, have you ever tried the custom game system yourself?
One game a bronze player joins your game, the second a master, third bronze, etc. It's a complete disaster, your entire time is wasted and you learn nothing out of it.
The same way they gave 2 accounts in PTR, they can do it in your main region too. Just one of the many things they have messed up in Starcraft 2. That's exactly how i learned to play the other races. Nothing bad about playing against players of different skill levels and watching the replay afterwards.
You're probably the first person I've seen who doesn't consider playing against lower level player to be a waste of time, from high bronze to pro players. Your opinion may differ, buf if half your games are against bronze/silver, it IS a complete waste of time for the majority of the players.
Games are the most exciting and you learn the most when playing opponents of similar skill, where you can see progress from match to match.
Also, many people don't choose a different race thinking "I want to reach high masters with this race!!". They just want to have fun with race, and maybe improve a bit.
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EPT
