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On February 22 2012 00:57 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 00:44 SolidMustard wrote:
In Code S, terran is imba. In bronze, it's the hardest race. Looks like foreign pros are closer to bronze than code S.
I am kiddin but I'm not just trolling, terran seems to be the most difficult race to play, but also the most powerful when you master it. And it looks like the lower the level the more difficult it is to win with terran. I guess the main reason is micro Blizzard did a REALLY poor job balancing the three races around the skill gradient.
Why would races be ever balanced around the skill gradient? In brood war protoss was ages easier than any other race on ICCUP D rank level, no one bitched about that, it was just a fact. In a game with 3 diverse races they will always be imbalanced on lower levels with some being harder and others being easier. eSports should always be balanced on the highest level of play and not across all leagues, the only way to achieve that is to dumb down the game, the modern shooter genre shows that that will only lead to dumb and boring games. I love how people bitch about starcraft 2, or terran, being to hard, when in reality most masters players would probably be somewhere around C level in brood war given the time they are willing to put in.
OT: Terran is the race that is the most about exact builds out of all of them, koreans are known to put in more time/effort to improve thus they have crisper and better timed builds than foreigners, thus the difference between korean and foreign terrans is higher than they between foreign and korean zergs where exact builds are less important.
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It seems like all the arguments about multitasking, APM, build orders, aggression, etc... all point to something said at the very beginning of the thread, which is that Korean terrans are much better at dictating the pace of the game.
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Did a quick search for 111 in this thread and I didn't see it. Now I can't speak for every terran out there, but one I can say is when i watched tournaments, mostly GSL and MLG to be fair, a lot of the times it was the Korean Terran's 111'ing and the EU terrans not.
For current MU in PvT it seems to be in the P favour globally (recent code A and Code S results, seems to me most of the toss were knocked out by toss so far  ). Otherwise, traditionally strong PvT'ers in Mana and White-Ra have had less trouble against Korean Terrans (Mainly Puma and Nada, both known for PvT) than korean toss for that matter. (where nada and puma established there rep for strong PvT)
Another aspect is that Koreans 111'd more frequiently in tournaments that what i've seen foreignerrs do (possibly as EU P have had to deal with 111 for a while longer (I 1st found it on diamond EU ladder about 3 months b4 it became really really popular)). Whereas, on the otherhand, foreigner terrans, when they attempted to pull off the 111 (demuslim vs some korean P at MLG) seemed unfamiliar with the build and hesitant to use it, despite its success.
tl;dr Korean terran's had an easier time of things vs P coz they all 111'd, where foreigner terrans were hesitant to do so. (Some) Foreigner protoss's were better dealing with 111 than korean P in a scattered showing.
And, lastly, I think the best EU zerg's have better control than some of the zergs in GSL as well. (not DRG and leenock, but Nesteas muta control vs genius was very meh, whereas Stephano vs DRG and Dimaga vs JYP (at least as far as i know at the end he did) and Dimaga vs July showed some very very tight control, better in some cases by a hair.)
Disclaimer:Yes, these are scattered games spread over a long period I am talking about, but sadly I don't know every match Mana has played vs Korean Terrans offhand, tho of the two or three i remember, Mana won 2, and can't remember the result of the 3rd. Also white-ra beat Puma the day before he won dreamhack in a Bo3 IIRC, as the reference to his strength in PvT.
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It is mostly because terran requires a lot of micro and multi tasking.Foreign players are usually more passive than active on all Mu's.
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Top foreigner terrans are much more eager to shy away from abusive, gimmicky openings that are map/player dependent than Korean terrans.
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On February 21 2012 20:56 Severus_ wrote:
Polt who somehow can play StarCraft2 win tournaments and go in university of seoul ( i think thats the best university in KR?) .
I'm so tired of everyone quoting about how Polt is so great to balance Seoul University with SC2. Yes, getting in to that school is super impressive considering you're competing with a bunch of other students who put in 100hr study weeks to ace the entrance exams. But people who don't know the Korean school system don't realize that once you're in, its an easy ride to the finish. You could skip most of your classes which I'm sure Polt does, and as long as you matriculate with a ok average, you're fine. If you're in the right faculty, the classes are easy, and its a straight road to a cushy job at Samsung, Hyundai, LG, Kookmin, KEB, etc....
Hell, Ivy league universities are tough to get in but once you get inside, its cruise control to graduating magna or summa cum laude I can tell you, especially if you study for a crap major like economics or some other liberal arts crap. Especially if you've gone through a rigorous East Asian education system.
Same with biz school. I hear that law/medical schools are a little more difficult though.
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On February 22 2012 03:03 openbox1 wrote:
Ivy league universities are tough to get in but once you get inside, its cruise control to graduating magna or summa cum laude I can tell you, especially if you study for a crap major like economics or some other liberal arts crap.
I object... Economics isnt that easy... Or at least not this side. M.Com Economics, Final Year...
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On February 22 2012 03:03 openbox1 wrote:
Hell, Ivy league universities are tough to get in but once you get inside, its cruise control to graduating magna or summa cum laude I can tell you, especially if you study for a crap major like economics or some other liberal arts crap. Especially if you've gone through a rigorous East Asian education system.
Assuming you are referring to economics specifically, you should know that the field of Economics as in Finance, Financial Engineering, Accounting, Marketing, Supply chain, HRM are very different. Not to mention the difference between undergraduate, postgraduate and PHD. These things are a lot of very different things.
Saying Ivy league is a brise might be tooo general? Unless you are this guy of course, then I see where you are coming from: http://educationmalaysia.blogspot.com/2006/03/phd-at-21.html
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i do belive most foreign players play * scared* that is they hesitate they re think things and get in the way of themselves. so its a mind set not skill . in my opinion
with that said however there are exceptions . like thorzain, naniwa,dimaga, grubby and stephano an some other euro players  they can and have beaten koreans before and will again.
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On February 21 2012 20:02 IdrA wrote:
terran benefits the most from good multitasking. koreans practice a lot more, multitasking benefits a lot from practice.
rocket science
This pretty much clears it up for me. All the theories about why terrans are doing poorly and their win rates have not dropped that much.(this is the moment where you go to SCranks and pull some random , cherry picked stats to prove me wrong) I see thread after thread posting how terran is so much harder than the other two races. How the skill curve for terran has a hard climb, but not for Koreans because they are better for some reason. Yet, few make the next leap and say "Damn, I should be more like them. Give me those replays." Instead, its about how horrible the game is and how their opponents beat them with far less skill.
Now this is not all terrans. Some are really set on getting better and do not turn to inbalance every time they lose. I love playing against them and maybe they will be the only terrans left after a while. I'm not sure that is really a bad thing.
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On February 22 2012 03:20 TheEconomist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 03:03 openbox1 wrote:
Ivy league universities are tough to get in but once you get inside, its cruise control to graduating magna or summa cum laude I can tell you, especially if you study for a crap major like economics or some other liberal arts crap. I object... Economics isnt that easy... Or at least not this side. M.Com Economics, Final Year...
How did you reach the conclusion that this person have a clue about what he is talking about?
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United States15275 Posts
On February 21 2012 17:59 Strelok wrote:Korea has the best players in the world. Fully agree. Korea has more skilled terrans then zergs and protosses. Also agree. Even though maps become more and more anti-terran, every patch nerfs terrans they still continue to dominate korean scene, not so much as it was - but still as best race. IPL 4 qualifiers show it clearly. Let's take non-korea. I can name you a thon of protosses and zergs which became better very fast in last few months but can't name any terran. In fact terrans of non-korea really struggle a lot. Let's take a look for example at last week tournaments: http://goodgame.ru/news.php?ocd=view&id=12612#comments17 tournaments. Terrans won 1 and made 4 people in finals. That's all. Honestly in trying to become better i try to analyze many replays from non-korea terrans, but i find nothing new, which can help me to win. So there is my question. What are we doing SO WRONG, that we struggle a lot even against non-korean protosses and zergs, while our korean race-mates manage to dominate against strongest players of other races?
Well, this is an interesting question.
The first thing I would say is that Korean terrans are currently struggling against Korean protosses. Not in the sense that they cannot win games, but they feel like the TvP matchup is very rigid and that the opportunity for winning a game changes drastically according to what tech the protoss has available. A lot more could (and should) be said about how protoss gameplay in the matchup has changed over the last 3-4 months but...that would take forever to describe. I don't know if KR terrans are actually dominating the scene, I don't know the proper racial distribution among the professional scene.
A lot of people have already mentioned important points in what separates KR terrans from foreign terrans:
- Korean players in general are far more willing to get aggressive in the early-mid game if they believe they can exploit a weakness in their opponent's play. Often they win because they successfully anticipate their enemies' plans and do build orders that counter them; other times they mindgame their opponents over an entire series and slowly get the necessary edges to win.
- Terran is the race that benefits the most from aggressive multitasking in the early-mid game.
- KR terrans in general are far more aggressive throughout the entire game. They actively try to force mistakes, caught their opponents off-guard, and relentless harass so they can dictate the pace of the game.
- KR terrans have a variety of builds they can draw from depending on the situation, all practiced extensively so they can be executed whenever needed.
- Terran is the race that can tech the fastest, which opens up a lot more usable builds in the early-mid game.
- The terran bio army + tanks, with proper micro and positioning, can be the most cost-efficient army in the entire game.
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Narrower and more timing windows in heuristics, greater confidence and ability in a constant multi-pronged fluid map presence, more already capable players to discuss with, and the time to gain an coalesce all of that knowledge and develop the ability to make use of it on a consistent basis.
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i don't think you really need korean like apm to play terran properly. i watch sjow's stream, he's not fast but he can still play terran very well. his play is methodical and smooth. i do think you need to be as fast as those Koreans if you want to compete with them since you pretty much cannot have any glaring weakness against someone on that caliber. with that said i hate how blizzard only balance around the GSL level, and some of those terran nerfs are just downright disgusting. If it weren't those Koreans, terran wouldn't be getting nerfs after nerfs. do you really think terran warrants so many nerfs outside the GSL?
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In general koreans have better mechanics. terran requires finer mechanics at the top level.
Terran comes down to positioning when it gets down to it, whether you go bio or mech.
However, if you have really great mechanics, you can fudge it and pretend (completely fucking up in TvP and engaging the protoss directly, messing up the emps, but then kiting for infinity and living the engagement without losing all your stuff, opposed to just waiting, slowly starving him, making him attack you, and engaging correctly).
The problem is, this fudging either works PERFECTLY, or doesn't at all. Terran are slowly learning that positioning is the key to everything for terran, but for the time being, and in the past until this point, korean terran have been able to get by with great mechanics and aggression, while foreign terran can't.
you have to factor in everything else that differentiates foreigners and koreans in general, but when you factor them in, they really just compound the problem for terran because of HOW terran work.
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i think the stereotype still applies in sc2: korea = micro(aggression), foreigner = macro(power up).
with that said, terran benefits most from detailed micro and in my personal opinion, micro is key in tvz (for terran).
varies from player to player...i'm not sure.
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On February 22 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:
i think the stereotype still applies in sc2: korea = micro(aggression), foreigner = macro(power up).
with that said, terran benefits most from detailed micro and in my personal opinion, micro is key in tvz (for terran).
varies from player to player...i'm not sure.
i disagree, Koreans are better at both micro and macro.
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On February 22 2012 08:29 HellionDrop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:
i think the stereotype still applies in sc2: korea = micro(aggression), foreigner = macro(power up).
with that said, terran benefits most from detailed micro and in my personal opinion, micro is key in tvz (for terran).
varies from player to player...i'm not sure. i disagree, Koreans are better at both micro and macro.
i didnt say who's better at what, just saying the difference of focus 
but yes, korean, 4th race, is obviously op.
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On February 22 2012 08:32 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 08:29 HellionDrop wrote:On February 22 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:
i think the stereotype still applies in sc2: korea = micro(aggression), foreigner = macro(power up).
with that said, terran benefits most from detailed micro and in my personal opinion, micro is key in tvz (for terran).
varies from player to player...i'm not sure. i disagree, Koreans are better at both micro and macro. i didnt say who's better at what, just saying the difference of focus but yes, korean, 4th race, is obviously op.
i don't think koreans focus more on micro per se, they practice alot so they can get many things done without slipping either one too much.
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On February 22 2012 08:37 HellionDrop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 08:32 jinorazi wrote:On February 22 2012 08:29 HellionDrop wrote:On February 22 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:
i think the stereotype still applies in sc2: korea = micro(aggression), foreigner = macro(power up).
with that said, terran benefits most from detailed micro and in my personal opinion, micro is key in tvz (for terran).
varies from player to player...i'm not sure. i disagree, Koreans are better at both micro and macro. i didnt say who's better at what, just saying the difference of focus but yes, korean, 4th race, is obviously op. i don't think koreans focus more on micro per se, they practice alot so they can get many things done without slipping either one too much.
i was just talking in general...of the old bw stereotype...
sorry if distracted you with my silly comment XD
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EPT
