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"Strategically what I lack from EU Terrans is what Ive been saying from the start, from even back in Brood War: You're passive! Look at SlayerS MMA, nobody represents Korean Terrans better than MMA, he is always doing something, he always has a plan, a device, a way to win the game and he is working tirelessly to win. EU terrans sit in their base, macro, play safe, maybe 1-2 drops per game and want to win! No man, you have to work hard, drop, harass, build bunkers in opponents base, elevator drop, nukes, banshees, hellion drops, use every tool you've got."
That my fellow TL'er is the diffrence between knowing what your opponent will do and not knowing. When MMA does something he knows its got a preatty high chance of success. Whatever he chooses to do, he does for a reason. He saw a flaw in his opponents play and goes for it. No spore? Go bansehe, no early gas, go elevator play, not enough gateway with expand? Early push. and so on and so forth.
As the game develops and the meta game changes all these harras methods keep getting more and more figured out and deal less damage/less efective or just have a lower chance of success(banshee dont kill 100 workers anymore with good micro and hellions dont incinerate mineral lines like in early GSL seasons). Terrans usually roll the dice and hope for the best when doing a harras because you cannon know what your oponents style is outside GSL, so you can figure him out and take him apart. Not doing anything with your harras means that you lost the game when playing terran. Sure the game dosen't end right there and then but you probably have a VERY slim chance of catching up.
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On February 21 2012 23:10 Ucs wrote:
"Strategically what I lack from EU Terrans is what Ive been saying from the start, from even back in Brood War: You're passive! Look at SlayerS MMA, nobody represents Korean Terrans better than MMA, he is always doing something, he always has a plan, a device, a way to win the game and he is working tirelessly to win. EU terrans sit in their base, macro, play safe, maybe 1-2 drops per game and want to win! No man, you have to work hard, drop, harass, build bunkers in opponents base, elevator drop, nukes, banshees, hellion drops, use every tool you've got."
That my fellow TL'er is the diffrence between knowing what your opponent will do and not knowing. When MMA does something he knows its got a preatty high chance of success. Whatever he chooses to do, he does for a reason. He saw a flaw in his opponents play and goes for it. No spore? Go bansehe, no early gas, go elevator play, not enough gateway with expand? Early push. and so on and so forth.
As the game develops and the meta game changes all these harras methods keep getting more and more figured out and deal less damage/less efective or just have a lower chance of success(banshee dont kill 100 workers anymore with good micro and hellions dont incinerate mineral lines like in early GSL seasons). Terrans usually roll the dice and hope for the best when doing a harras because you cannon know what your oponents style is, so you can figure him out and take him apart.
Its more complicated than that. If you want to play a korean style of tvz you have to do think about a shitton of different stuff. Its not as black/white as many TL make it out to be.
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On February 21 2012 22:28 Dalavita wrote:
I never understood the double standards when it comes to terran.
Zergs are doing poorly in the GSL, but got a couple of heroes, fruitdealer and nestea. Doing poorly everywhere else. Zerg is weak.
Protoss are doing poorly in the GSL, but got a couple of heroes, namely MC. Doing poorly everywhere else. Protoss is weak.
Terrans are doing poorly in the GSL, although arguably less so right now, but got a couple of heroes, namely MVP/MMA. They're doing poorly everywhere else. Terran is fine
Zergs are beating terrans to the ground with infestor broodlord so such a degree where David Kim is quoted saying that it might be to strong, but nothing changes. Terrans eventually start using ghosts to deal with it. Ghosts get nerfed. Why is it that the ghost part of the equation was considered to be the problem? Was it factually proven that zergs had no answer for it? Did they even get any time to practice against it?
There's literally like three terrans carrying the entire race in the GSL right now, because they are miles ahead of everyone else in skill. Everywhere else terrans are having mediocre results at best, but the race still gets nerfed like there was some sort of rampant terran swarm swallowing every tournament. I think it's bizarre that the game can be balanced around such a small tournament where no where else is the terran dominance as prominent or even existent.
That said, there aren't many foreign terrans that are playing impressively right now, but the question is why terran still keeps getting nerfed. Where do blizzard get their data from? The five GSL games where MVP killed some random code S zerg with snipes?
there have always been a good number of terrans makes it to the RO8 Code S, except for this session.
and the thing about snipe isn't it is being too good (well, I would say it is because it lets you trade energy for a whole broodlord/ultra which is quite expensive in a really cost efficient way) but it stops zerg from breaking the PF split map situation.
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On February 21 2012 17:59 Strelok wrote:Korea has the best players in the world. Fully agree. Korea has more skilled terrans then zergs and protosses. Also agree. Even though maps become more and more anti-terran, every patch nerfs terrans they still continue to dominate korean scene, not so much as it was - but still as best race. IPL 4 qualifiers show it clearly. Let's take non-korea. I can name you a thon of protosses and zergs which became better very fast in last few months but can't name any terran. In fact terrans of non-korea really struggle a lot. Let's take a look for example at last week tournaments: http://goodgame.ru/news.php?ocd=view&id=12612#comments17 tournaments. Terrans won 1 and made 4 people in finals. That's all. Honestly in trying to become better i try to analyze many replays from non-korea terrans, but i find nothing new, which can help me to win. So there is my question. What are we doing SO WRONG, that we struggle a lot even against non-korean protosses and zergs, while our korean race-mates manage to dominate against strongest players of other races?
If that is truly the case is has to be:
A) Something all Korean progamers do, or are better at than Western players.
--This goes for T/P/Z, we must assume that Korean progamers are on average equally skilled across the three races.
B) Whatever A is, it favors Terran
The only thing i can think of is micro / army control. It's something Korean players are better at than Western players, and imo terran is THE race that benefits the most from good army control, especially in the lategame where you face T3 Z/P and strong AoE spells / units.
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Oh the whim I'd say Korean Terrans (and players in general) have better macro and decision making and multitasking is what really counts at the high level where they play
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Lately even Korean terrans are struggling + I've noticed they do a lot of timing attacks if they fail - qq-gg
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i think foreigners often underestimate the importance of creep vs no creep and often make mistakes when it comes to judging positions. for example, they feel they need to push from 3 bases against a lair tech zerg when its completely unnecessary to do so.
also, their mechanics are often inferior.
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On February 21 2012 23:33 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i think foreigners often underestimate the importance of creep vs no creep and often make mistakes when it comes to judging positions. for example, they feel they need to push from 3 bases against a lair tech zerg when its completely unnecessary to do so.
also, their mechanics are often inferior.
That's great, but the mechanics of foreign zerg and protoss players are also inferior. Terran just has a higher skill cap/harder to play and foreigners don't practice enough to benefit from it.
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On February 21 2012 23:33 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i think foreigners often underestimate the importance of creep vs no creep and often make mistakes when it comes to judging positions. for example, they feel they need to push from 3 bases against a lair tech zerg when its completely unnecessary to do so.
also, their mechanics are often inferior.
Are you sure? I have not seen that many games of you lately but I have not seen anybody making as much creep as you do. In the GSL as well.
On February 21 2012 23:23 Powerstrike wrote:
Lately even Korean terrans are struggling + I've noticed they do a lot of timing attacks if they fail - qq-gg
Not necessarily. Maybe team MVP is just better than they should be.
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On February 21 2012 23:15 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 22:28 Dalavita wrote:
I never understood the double standards when it comes to terran.
Zergs are doing poorly in the GSL, but got a couple of heroes, fruitdealer and nestea. Doing poorly everywhere else. Zerg is weak.
Protoss are doing poorly in the GSL, but got a couple of heroes, namely MC. Doing poorly everywhere else. Protoss is weak.
Terrans are doing poorly in the GSL, although arguably less so right now, but got a couple of heroes, namely MVP/MMA. They're doing poorly everywhere else. Terran is fine
there have always been a good number of terrans makes it to the RO8 Code S, except for this session. and the thing about snipe isn't it is being too good (well, I would say it is because it lets you trade energy for a whole broodlord/ultra which is quite expensive in a really cost efficient way) but it stops zerg from breaking the PF split map situation.
This season in the GSL:
Semis: 2 terran (alive and gumiho - one who beat MMA 3-1 so obviously he must suck because MMA and MvP are the only ones carrying the race?), 1 protoss, 1 zerg.
Quarters: 3 terran, 4 protoss, 1 zerg.
Round of 16: 8 terran, 5 protoss, 3 zerg.
In what weird reality is it that you people are living where the Terran is doing poorly in the GSL? "Arguable less right now" ? "Except for this season" ?
This season it is not completely TvT everywhere and absolute domination by Terran - but they are still the race doing the best. So far.
Argue based on reality please.
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My sentiments echo those of people before for the most part I think.
I strongly believe Terran is the better race of the three for skilled players right now, Terran gives the best options for controlling space and map awareness, and except for 1a: Deathball v Deathball battles Terran units are exponentially better relative to the multitasking and micro of their pilot (the other races units tend to have less reward for skill imo) The interaction of MULEs and SCVs with regards to maximising the potential of fast/numerous expansions and keeping up sufficient army/ harass pressure is also a definite strength of Terran. For these reasons I think Terran will continue to be dominant in Korea and Korean Terrans will continue to be better than foreigners.
Upon reading the above it sounded like a balance whine and I'd like to state that that is not the case. The aggressive Korean play-style is best suited to what Terran does best. Most of the best foreigners are Zerg because the, seeming, foreign preference for passive macro is best suited to Zerg. Z and P still need a lot of figuring out and most of the innovation we have seen has been the result of Terran or Blizzard forcing the issue.
TLDR: Koreans play Terran properly, foreigners usually don't.
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Btw, I have to point out that "better macro" will never be a reason to explain a skill differential in professional SC2.
The reason is: SC2 mechanics are easy and any master (even diamond) player can macro as well as a korean pro against a Very Easy computer.
It's doing macro PLUS all the other things you have to do to win against a skillful opponent which is hard and make the game interesting to play.
I think when people say "better macro" about pro players, they probably mean "better multitasking".
It's not the same for "Better micro" however, I feel like people in SC2 can really have better raw micro than their opponent ^^.
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On February 21 2012 23:40 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 23:33 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i think foreigners often underestimate the importance of creep vs no creep and often make mistakes when it comes to judging positions. for example, they feel they need to push from 3 bases against a lair tech zerg when its completely unnecessary to do so.
also, their mechanics are often inferior. That's great, but the mechanics of foreign zerg and protoss players are also inferior. Terran just has a higher skill cap/harder to play and foreigners don't practice enough to benefit from it.
im just explaining the major differences that i have noticed from playing against koreans. they always have more stuff than their european counterparts. i think terran has a higher "skillcap" in that regard because there is so many things you can do.
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I have to say that i see the crying from terrans out of korea on a very high niveau.
I mean if i look the play of sorry to say even you strelok, i see not that difference then the koreans have.
Everything seems expected and easy to counter.
Seems like terran learned in the start of the game that if they just play SOLID they will win but now they have to do things like zerg and protoss always had to, be smart try unexpected things etc etc
and for now i not see nonkoreans terrans do anything near
its not only "better macro" or "better decicions" it really seems like terrans need to learn to play another way of playing sc2
but it will come to nonterrans too ... i see idra as example cry about SO many things that darkforce just nullify by making good creep etc etc
players should just be more creative
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terrans hardest race to play, highest skills cap
on a clock in both non-mirrors
need to do early aggression or you're behind
most taxing multitasking: banshee/hellion/medivac harass
hardest macro: managing addons, etc
difficult micro: tank positioning, ghosts
only koreans + few select foreigners (thorzain, kas, happy) are skilled enough to play at level to match other races
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On February 21 2012 23:47 fcb10 wrote:
terrans hardest race to play
on a clock in both non-mirrors
need to do early aggression or you're behind
most taxing multitasking: banshee/hellion harass
hardest macro: managing addons, etc
difficult micro: tank positioning
only koreans + few select foreigners (thorzain, kas, happy) are skilled enough to play at level to match other races
well thats what every race say ...
tvp the protoss players wont agree that terran is the easier race to play, sometime it feels cause they have different times when their armys are good but overall ... when i see the "normal" ladderplayer (low grandmaster high master) the terrans seems to win with a much smaller amount of tactics and builds
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Yeah, macro is also a really big deal for Terrans. I remember seeing some games from Alive in what I think was the ESV grand prix some weeks ago versus a Zerg whose name escapes me momentarily. This was played on Crux Daybreak I believe. Anyhow, after securing a (slightly risky) third base he never drops below 150 supply even as he loses entire armies to a Zerg ball of infestor, brood lord and lings with a few corruptors to defend against vikings.
He's pushed all the way back to his natural but his crazy reinforcements allows him to fight back and as the infestors run out of energy his rallied marine forces stim forward to pick off more and more brood lords until the push is cleared. After a similar fight in the middle where Zerg is remaxed he wins the battle and eventually the game since Zerg is out of money to rebuild. It almost felt stupid from time to time how Alive never ever died and always had an army to deal with things even as he lost engagements and never ran out of money or units. I do think Zerg could've harassed more and had better engagements but a strong macro Terran is very overpowering mid to late-game if he has a solid economic footing.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 21 2012 23:50 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 23:47 fcb10 wrote:
terrans hardest race to play
on a clock in both non-mirrors
need to do early aggression or you're behind
most taxing multitasking: banshee/hellion harass
hardest macro: managing addons, etc
difficult micro: tank positioning
only koreans + few select foreigners (thorzain, kas, happy) are skilled enough to play at level to match other races
well thats what every race say ...
tvp the protoss players wont agree that terran is the easier race to play, sometime it feels cause they have different times when their armys are good but overall ... when i see the "normal" ladderplayer (low grandmaster high master) the terrans seems to win with a much smaller amount of tactics and builds
lol... once protoss gets 3base colossi + ht tech out, terrans cannot win
and its becoming easier and easier for protosses to get to that stage now that the various terran aggression timings are figured out
coming from a protoss player, recently it seems like the only reason i lose tvp is due to my own mistakes
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So lately a lot more Korean Terran pro players have been streaming such as; Polt, Boxer, Nada, ForGG and Bomber and I have been watching them. First of all I would like to say that these players are awesome.
The main difference between Non Korean and Korean Terrans is the Koreans really play a scrappy highly aggressive style of Terran, constantly poking at opponent, looking for weaknesses, harrassing and in the back of all of this their macro will be as good as a most other pro players who just macro in base putting hardly any pressure on opponent. So really their success is coming down to them multitasking like bosses and giving themselves the edge in games.
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On February 21 2012 22:28 Dalavita wrote:
I never understood the double standards when it comes to terran.
Zergs are doing poorly in the GSL, but got a couple of heroes, fruitdealer and nestea. Doing poorly everywhere else. Zerg is weak.
Protoss are doing poorly in the GSL, but got a couple of heroes, namely MC. Doing poorly everywhere else. Protoss is weak.
Terrans are doing poorly in the GSL, although arguably less so right now, but got a couple of heroes, namely MVP/MMA. They're doing poorly everywhere else. Terran is fine
Zergs are beating terrans to the ground with infestor broodlord so such a degree where David Kim is quoted saying that it might be to strong, but nothing changes. Terrans eventually start using ghosts to deal with it. Ghosts get nerfed. Why is it that the ghost part of the equation was considered to be the problem? Was it factually proven that zergs had no answer for it? Did they even get any time to practice against it?
There's literally like three terrans carrying the entire race in the GSL right now, because they are miles ahead of everyone else in skill. Everywhere else terrans are having mediocre results at best, but the race still gets nerfed like there was some sort of rampant terran swarm swallowing every tournament. I think it's bizarre that the game can be balanced around such a small tournament where no where else is the terran dominance as prominent or even existent.
That said, there aren't many foreign terrans that are playing impressively right now, but the question is why terran still keeps getting nerfed. Where do blizzard get their data from? The five GSL games where MVP killed some random code S zerg with snipes?
When over 2/3 of the best tournament in the world is 1race, there is something wrong going on here.
Who cares who wins everywhere else, people will always look at GSL far and formost and for a good reason.
You simply will see the highest lvl of play there.
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EPT
