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On February 21 2012 21:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 21:18 teddyoojo wrote:On February 21 2012 21:09 Big J wrote:On February 21 2012 21:03 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2012 20:59 ZenithM wrote:On February 21 2012 20:49 IMPrime wrote:
Basically multitasking/APM.
There's a reason why plat-masters terrans are struggling significantly more than zergs or protosses in the same division, and I highly doubt that they are all worse players. They just have to do a lot more during the game. Foreign pro terrans obviously have more APM than these plat-masters, but they still are nowhere near what is required to beat their zergs and tosses.
Korean terrans have the APM to utilize the units A somewhat relevant claim backed up by a very shitty and false reason. At "plat-masters", Terran's winrates are the same as every other race, it's 50%, that's just how it is, they don't struggle more. You could improve and get faster/have more APM, it still won't help you much on the ladder, you'll still get your 50% winrate, so to those players: just play the game and don't go comparing yourselves to players of Strelok's caliber thinking that what you experience is somehow related. Lol like you knew anything about the struggle of terrans. Just watch the top 25 of each master division, there will be a lot more P/Z than T. Just do it (dunno if you can watch the last season stats)... It's a known fact that there are less T diamond/master yeah, if you add Protoss and Zerg players, there will sure be more than Terrans: GM: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/grandmaster/1/allMaster: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/master/1/all/0/142Diamond: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/diamond/1/allAnd you can check the last patches as well. I guess the Terran count is decreasing... it's still above the Zerg count. its because theyre all in bronze .. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all that's weird... Region stats for 341,879 teams from the Master 1v1 brackets, is what is written over mine... Edit: I guess Region + League as I did, doesn't work properly. So sorry for the wrong stats, I guess Terran is least played (if those stats work properly).
i dont know what ur trying to say. it says "League stats for 338,716 teams from 1v1 brackets in all regions." and terran has 37% in bronze
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Strelok! :-) I like Ukranian players a lot, in my opinion the best in the world after Korea, same goes in CS with NaVi!
What you're doing wrong: Koreans practice ~2 hours per day more than you. That gives them slightly better macro, slightly better micro, slightly better multitasking, APM, timings, strategies etc. With more practice, you will play like Koreans.
Strategically what I lack from EU Terrans is what Ive been saying from the start, from even back in Brood War: You're passive! Look at SlayerS MMA, nobody represents Korean Terrans better than MMA, he is always doing something, he always has a plan, a device, a way to win the game and he is working tirelessly to win. EU terrans sit in their base, macro, play safe, maybe 1-2 drops per game and want to win! No man, you have to work hard, drop, harass, build bunkers in opponents base, elevator drop, nukes, banshees, hellion drops, use every tool you've got.
#2: Don't get stuck on "game-balance" thinking. If Terran is weak against Protoss in lategame, drop/timing push and end game earlier. Like SK.MC said back when Mutalisks were too strong vs. Protoss: Go Stargate Phoenix and prevent Zerg from making mutalisks (while the Europeans QQ that mutalisk OP). If Zerg Broodlords are too strong, end the game before Broodlords. If it's raining outside, use a raincoat. If there is lightning outside, move away from the tree. Think like this.
Exactly everything, that the European commentator will tell you not to do because" it's too risky", is exactly what you should do and need to do if you want to play like the Korean Terrans.
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I think the preparation that the GSL system allows is a crucial factor. In a different setting like IEM Supernova looked like a foreigner Terran. As already mentioned Foreigners do not have a lot of follow up agression after their first wave of hellions. A good example of it are players like Happy and Kas who tend to turtle in midgame to get the economy up. But this allows the Zerg to get a swarm of mutas or infestors and the Toss will mostly reach 2/2 upgrades plus storm at which it becomes easier for Z/P to deal with terran.
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This will probably sound stupid coming from a gold leaguer. Buuut does it now all come down to hard work??
I don't think there is something special about the korean gene that gives them 400apm. The difference i have noticed is the 8-10hours of training a day against other people who want to train 8-10hrs a day. Weather it be for Terran/Zerg/Toss.
You may find 1-2 foreigner willing to train 8-10hrs a day but who is he going to train with them for 8-10hrs outside of korea??
I suppose its like the wolf climbing the mountain for food rather than the 1 that is already there. The 1 climbing the mountain is more hungrier. In this case the food is salary/money. Koreans only income as we know is the GSL placings. Survival of the fittest. In the SC2 scence Koreans are definitely the fittest due to circumstance!!
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i watch A LOT of games and the biggest difference, the reason why korean terrans win (at least vs zerg) is, their incredible macro... they are literatelly rallying units over to the zerg base, often times having equal the supply and containing the zerg on 2 or 3 base, while expanding themselves or just ending the game, because most zergs can't keep up with the constant aggression.
They trade armies over and over again with marine/tank, while getting a superior economy (zerg can't make units AND drones at the same time vs this kind of playstyle, because they would fall apart)
obviously for this kind of strategy you need top notch micro as well.
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Imo terran is the race that benefits the most from multi tasking, which koreans are v good at. Judging their success from the GSL is not the best way, since the GSL incorporates a lot of meta gaming and carefully prepared strategies for particular opponents. That said, I do not think foreign terrans struggle, its just that there are fewer of them. Thorzain is well respected by korean terrans, and kas has had good showings in tournaments. Empire seems to be the hub of many strong foreign terrans. Anytime these players face off against korean terrans, one must remember there is a lot more information available on the foreign terran rather than the korean one. This makes meta gaming them easier, since most european terrans do prefer a stable way of playing. Does this make them worse than Korean terrans? No, its just that koreans are v willing to gamble at times where foreigners normally wouldn't. In tournament settings, they take a lot more risks and have specific builds that really wouldn't work anywhere else. This isn't being better at the game per se, its having a better competitive mind set.
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Koreans probably don't use shitty ladder to practice.
Someone tell me I'm an idiot if I'm wrong but I would imagine Koreans have a more structure practice schedule where they can practice one build in one matchup in one map repeatedly until they perfect it.
I honestly can't imagine how playing ladder and getting random matchups on random maps, some of which aren't even played in tournament, is useful to properly developing your skill.
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I never understood the double standards when it comes to terran.
Zergs are doing poorly in the GSL, but got a couple of heroes, fruitdealer and nestea. Doing poorly everywhere else. Zerg is weak.
Protoss are doing poorly in the GSL, but got a couple of heroes, namely MC. Doing poorly everywhere else. Protoss is weak.
Terrans are doing poorly in the GSL, although arguably less so right now, but got a couple of heroes, namely MVP/MMA. They're doing poorly everywhere else. Terran is fine
Zergs are beating terrans to the ground with infestor broodlord so such a degree where David Kim is quoted saying that it might be to strong, but nothing changes. Terrans eventually start using ghosts to deal with it. Ghosts get nerfed. Why is it that the ghost part of the equation was considered to be the problem? Was it factually proven that zergs had no answer for it? Did they even get any time to practice against it?
There's literally like three terrans carrying the entire race in the GSL right now, because they are miles ahead of everyone else in skill. Everywhere else terrans are having mediocre results at best, but the race still gets nerfed like there was some sort of rampant terran swarm swallowing every tournament. I think it's bizarre that the game can be balanced around such a small tournament where no where else is the terran dominance as prominent or even existent.
That said, there aren't many foreign terrans that are playing impressively right now, but the question is why terran still keeps getting nerfed. Where do blizzard get their data from? The five GSL games where MVP killed some random code S zerg with snipes?
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The two things I think are the biggest differences between korean and foreign terrans is variation and micro. The korean style has a huge amount of different styles and small deviations that throw people offguard and rarely becomes predictable. Even though their often risky it tends to favour you to take them even if your statically better than your opponent.
The other I always seem to notice is the micro especially marine-splitting where the best koreans often win or lose simply because of it. As well as the small engagements in TvP with ghosts vs templar for example. Its the little things it feels like.
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On February 21 2012 22:28 Dalavita wrote:
Terrans are doing poorly in the GSL
When has this ever happened?
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Koreans in general just play less passive ranging from all in builds to just mid game and late game aggression. Seriously, name one foreign terran who is as relentless as a korean. When they get a lead, they think "ok, I'm gonna try to end this as soon as possible" which should be the right way of thinking because you don't want it to go late against either race. Every time I see a foreigner take a lead, but otherwise fail to get a gg, they back off and regroup while expanding and sometimes it gets into that scenario where they gave them too much time and there's no choice but to go to the late game evenly.
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As a protoss player i don't quite get the Terran nerf vs. Zerg. I'd like to see the metagame sort that out by itself, as I'm sure it would over time.
PvT on the other hand, i don't get all the whining. It's a well known fact that the protoss needs to do damage and cripple the zerg before making 75 drones and maxing around 12-13 minutes. If we don't do damage, and let the zerg drone up - we are dead.Simple as that. No whine. TvP is something along those lines. If you let the protoss build the deathball, max 200/200 without much interruption, chances are you're going to die unless you land some pretty epic EMPs.
In the end, i feel that a lot of foreign terrans play their race as if they where protoss. Problem is: they are not! They are not supposed to max out and fight the deathball head on, hoping to crush their army. That's just not how it works.
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On February 21 2012 18:25 Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 18:16 VPFaith wrote:
Take EGPuma for example, he 1-2 base timing attack vs protoss almost every single game. Yes, he mix in with some 1 Rax FEs, but majorities of his victories are because of heavy harassment into 1-2 base timing attacks. As MC would put it, "You want to win tournaments? Timing Attack! Timing Attack!" But such play is very unsafe. I mean if zerg/protoss knows you will do that - you are done. Do you propose just to rely on mixing strategies that he doesn't know how exactly you will all-in him? because 2 base attack is same all-in as 1 base in high level.
I think a lot european terrans try to play to much 1 rax fe. While koreans also mix in a lot of timing attacks, be it 2 rax, 1-1-1, 3rax or just 1 marine 2 rauder pressure into expand. I always felt that playing versus 1 rax fe is easiest, because you know what you are facing. That is why I really dislike playing vs people like naama, Kas and Satiini. They switch up their play quite a lot. You never know what is going to come.
Hope it helps you!
EDIT: I am a toss player btw <3
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It's all about unit cohesion and Terran has the best out of all three.
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It's not in the Koreans playstyle, its in their refinement and crispness of their builds. Most Korean Terrans have a different playstyle, they aren't all hyper-agressive.
Everything they do, no matter how they play is so much more tight and refined, not to mention they're far ahead on the metagame and they got the Korean server to practice on, which has much better players in general then EU and NA.
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On February 21 2012 22:28 Dalavita wrote:
I never understood the double standards when it comes to terran.
Zergs are doing poorly in the GSL, but got a couple of heroes, fruitdealer and nestea. Doing poorly everywhere else. Zerg is weak.
Protoss are doing poorly in the GSL, but got a couple of heroes, namely MC. Doing poorly everywhere else. Protoss is weak.
Terrans are doing poorly in the GSL, although arguably less so right now, but got a couple of heroes, namely MVP/MMA. They're doing poorly everywhere else. Terran is fine
The difference being, terran now has 50% win rate in TvP and TvZ.
And back when Z and P were dong poorly, their win rates were like 30-40%.
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On February 21 2012 18:50 Dgotto wrote:
I think Koreans all time is playing,other players find time for making threads on TL ;D
Jokes on you, Korean players post in threads on PlayXP once in a while.
+ Show Spoiler +Though not as frequently as the foreigners. Only slightly.
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On February 21 2012 21:53 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 21:24 Big J wrote:On February 21 2012 21:18 teddyoojo wrote:On February 21 2012 21:09 Big J wrote:On February 21 2012 21:03 Poopi wrote:On February 21 2012 20:59 ZenithM wrote:On February 21 2012 20:49 IMPrime wrote:
Basically multitasking/APM.
There's a reason why plat-masters terrans are struggling significantly more than zergs or protosses in the same division, and I highly doubt that they are all worse players. They just have to do a lot more during the game. Foreign pro terrans obviously have more APM than these plat-masters, but they still are nowhere near what is required to beat their zergs and tosses.
Korean terrans have the APM to utilize the units A somewhat relevant claim backed up by a very shitty and false reason. At "plat-masters", Terran's winrates are the same as every other race, it's 50%, that's just how it is, they don't struggle more. You could improve and get faster/have more APM, it still won't help you much on the ladder, you'll still get your 50% winrate, so to those players: just play the game and don't go comparing yourselves to players of Strelok's caliber thinking that what you experience is somehow related. Lol like you knew anything about the struggle of terrans. Just watch the top 25 of each master division, there will be a lot more P/Z than T. Just do it (dunno if you can watch the last season stats)... It's a known fact that there are less T diamond/master yeah, if you add Protoss and Zerg players, there will sure be more than Terrans: GM: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/grandmaster/1/allMaster: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/master/1/all/0/142Diamond: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/diamond/1/allAnd you can check the last patches as well. I guess the Terran count is decreasing... it's still above the Zerg count. its because theyre all in bronze .. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all that's weird... Region stats for 341,879 teams from the Master 1v1 brackets, is what is written over mine... Edit: I guess Region + League as I did, doesn't work properly. So sorry for the wrong stats, I guess Terran is least played (if those stats work properly). i dont know what ur trying to say. it says "League stats for 338,716 teams from 1v1 brackets in all regions." and terran has 37% in bronze
I meant it's written over the stats I posted. I sorted by region and then added the option league. Seems like this doesn't work and I only get region + overall stats instead of region+league stats.
your stats are league+region(global) and seem to be working.
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In my opinion it is because terran is the most micro intensive race and the korean players jsut have the high apm amount to control it perfectly.
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On February 21 2012 22:28 Dalavita wrote:There's literally like three terrans carrying the entire race in the GSL right now, because they are miles ahead of everyone else in skill. Everywhere else terrans are having mediocre results at best
It's funny to say that because terran is the only race that is not carried by just 2-3 player. Just look at the TLDP there is 5 terran in the top 6, and that does not count Jjikaji, SuperNova or bomber (yeah I know he's in code B, but he can still all-kill some team) that are arugably quite good.
If you look at the zerg it's pretty much DRG, nestea and leenock, with curious and BBongBBong beeing decent too.
On February 21 2012 18:25 Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 18:16 VPFaith wrote:
Take EGPuma for example, he 1-2 base timing attack vs protoss almost every single game. Yes, he mix in with some 1 Rax FEs, but majorities of his victories are because of heavy harassment into 1-2 base timing attacks. As MC would put it, "You want to win tournaments? Timing Attack! Timing Attack!" But such play is very unsafe. I mean if zerg/protoss knows you will do that - you are done. Do you propose just to rely on mixing strategies that he doesn't know how exactly you will all-in him? because 2 base attack is same all-in as 1 base in high level.
If you think you shouldn't make 1-2 bases timings attacks because it's "unsafe", it's a part of the problem. Nothing is safe if your opponent knows it, the play considered to be "safe" get punished by greedy play. If you mix your builds (ex : adding a banshee, sometimes cloacked or not,...) and your general style of play (greedy, safe, cheesy), your opponent will have to rely on scouting (and not just on knowing what you like to do) to know what's up, and if he can't (or you trick him), it's a free win.
The advantage is that this way he will prepare to thing that you won't do and not cut as many corners as he would do otherwise. Just look at MKP on the ladder, he's doing a lot of 1 base builds but he got a sick winrate (vs the best korean players).
But this mental attidute punish more terran than other races because it's easier to win in lategame with P and Z, and terran all-in are just better and harder to scout.
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EPT
