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, and the patch hasn't even hit yet, were doomed.Difference between korean and non-korean terrans - Page 4
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MHT
Sweden1026 Posts
, and the patch hasn't even hit yet, were doomed. | ||
Poopi
France12908 Posts
When you watch korean terrans, you'll very very rarely see obvious sloppiness. Whether you are looking at their ressources count, barracks production (except few terrans who still are sloppy on this point) or battle / harass micro, they'll always be on top of every aspect of the game, no matter if they are attacking like madman or anything. You don't see this from foreign terrans, there will always be sloppiness in their play, but the greatest compensate this with very good skills (ThorZain just seem to know everything about the game, Kas I didn't watch him play enough yet but the results speak for themselves). It sucks for foreign terrans because they won't be able to be as successful as the P/Z pros but that's the way it is. | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
On February 21 2012 19:58 Recognizable wrote: The problem really is that both zerg and protoss can just sit whilst terran needs to be constantly aggressive. This results into terran just being harder to play but also having a higher skill cap so the foreigner terrans kinda fail. terran doesn't simply need to be constantly aggressive. it can afford to be moreso than the other races. with how people are playing, terran is the best at dropping while maintaining a strong enough presence on the map, because comps like bioball and marine/tank can be extremely cost efficient if positioned and/or controlled well. its drops are also the most devastating for how cheap they are. muta/bling/ling play seems to be the only comp that rivals any variety of comps terran can drop with because of how quickly mutas can reinforce if the opponent tries to push out. maybe all that makes the terran race harder? i don't know. it certainly means terrans need to take the initiative and force reactions from their opponents, which korean terrans seem to be doing very well. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 21 2012 20:10 Poopi wrote: To be successful as terran you need to practice more than the other races, which kinda sucks but it's like that, so think about the last game during the beginning of the other game it will gain time, practice more to be less sloppy. When you watch korean terrans, you'll very very rarely see obvious sloppiness. Whether you are looking at their ressources count, barracks production (except few terrans who still are sloppy on this point) or battle / harass micro, they'll always be on top of every aspect of the game, no matter if they are attacking like madman or anything. You don't see this from foreign terrans, there will always be sloppiness in their play, but the greatest compensate this with very good skills (ThorZain just seem to know everything about the game, Kas I didn't watch him play enough yet but the results speak for themselves). It sucks for foreign terrans because they won't be able to be as successful as the P/Z pros but that's the way it is Bullshit, back then when HuK won his MLGs and Dreamhack he was working harder than any other foreigner. He is Protoss but it does not matter. To do well at the highest level, you need to train relentlessly, whatever race you picked. | ||
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PureBalls
Austria383 Posts
On February 21 2012 18:42 LRObot wrote: Let's just say what everyone is thinking and what I feel is the OP is hinting at. Terran is harder to play. It's the race where your skill doesn't match your success, whereas with Z or P, where that relationship is linear. Blizzard doesn't account for this, and more likely, they really don't care. What they do care about is the literal X vs Y win percentage, and at only the highest tier of skill, ie not you. No, what every terran players is thinking. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 21 2012 20:19 PureBalls wrote: No, what every terran players is thinking. yeah... also this particular whine "race X is harder" has been stolen from Zergs, who used this all the time a year or so ago. Not to mention that it is still somewhat hidden in complaints like that of DRG and NesTea in the twitter war with MC. Or when people like Idra complain about lesser skilled Protoss and Terran players doing well. | ||
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
They can also do what they want to do because of the multitasking they can do. You see them taking aggressive 3rd/4th, always having dropships in the air, controlling 1-2 drops while moving out on the map clearing creep and taking a good position on the map or even just pushing while the opponent has to deal with the drops and macro at the same time. | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
On February 21 2012 17:59 Strelok wrote: What are we doing SO WRONG, that we struggle a lot even against non-korean protosses and zergs, while our korean race-mates manage to dominate against strongest players of other races? >> Get more APM ( to micro/macro and stuff ) ( 100 more at least ) >> Learn 30 more BO >> build more marines >> ??? >> profit User was warned for this post | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
Their opening build orders (and they'll often to do a wide variety of them and different styles), execution and follow ups all seem very relaxed and almost mechanical. | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
it makes sense... terran were clearly the best race from way back, the new wave of serious players coming accross from broodwar etc were more likely to pick up the most successful race. i think it's pretty hard to argue this point when you have such incredibly talented terran players like mvp, mma, marineking, taeja, jjakji, polt, ganji, NADA AND BOXER. obviously this would explain why korean terran win more tournaments. but also how the korean protoss/zerg become better at dealing with good terran... so it becomes even more difficult for non-korean terrans to beat korean protoss/zerg. the foreigner scene can easily watch these replays and pick up these effective anti-terran builds from korean protoss/zergs quite easily. | ||
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
On February 21 2012 20:29 Gamegene wrote: Korean Terrans all seem very comfortable whenever I watch them. Their opening build orders (and they'll often to do a wide variety of them and different styles), execution and follow ups all seem very relaxed and almost mechanical. korean terrans whine about protoss all the time | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On February 21 2012 20:31 teddyoojo wrote: korean terrans whine about protoss all the time yes that's why they're rela- what? | ||
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Cinim
Denmark866 Posts
There is far fewer in the foreign scene who actually play terran, for whatever reason it doesn't seem to be as interesting as some other races. And as someone already stated, terran is the race that has the most options, but foreigners don't tend to use them all to the same extent as koreans do. Foreign Terrans is very very limited in terms of different builds that they can do/want to do. That is like, not wanting to make use of your most important feature of the race | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Just look at MKP's match history on his multiple KR account (I can tell you, I have a TW account so I can look at this). One game it's a 14 CC against zerg, the other it's a double proxy rax against Terran, you litterally can never know what he's going to do against you, even if he's most likely the better player. Foreigners somehow think that the better player should always play for the longer game and shit and playing safe, but while this mindset can work with Protoss and certainly with Zerg, it's doesn't really translate well with Terran. Also, I think that Terran is the race that performs better if you allow its player to study their opponent beforehand, to find some flaw to abuse with a precise build order/proxy placement. That's why Terran players do decently well at the GSL, while not performing as well in short live events like MLGs or Dreamhack. So my advice would be: vary up your build orders, sometimes mix in very agressive shit even if you're not forced to, foreign Terran are too turtlish. About mechanics and multitasking, I don't really think it's the problem, foreigners do have decent mechanics (not on par with MMA, MVP or MKP's, but certainly comparable to the average low Code A player). And you even got players like Sjow or Goody, who are slower than your average master Protoss (*wink*), but can still win small tournaments in Europe. So I don't think mechanics are the big factor, at least not unless you want to challenge the top of the world. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On February 21 2012 19:58 Recognizable wrote: The problem really is that both zerg and protoss can just sit whilst terran needs to be constantly aggressive. This results into terran just being harder to play but also having a higher skill cap so the foreigner terrans kinda fail. the thing is, what you say doesnt logically follow from what mafia said. if protoss has the 'best' 200 ball > terran harrases with drops and stuff > strength of 200 ball is irrelevant, protoss must harras and drop and stuff. so in a game where we all seem to agree that actually sitting back at turtling isnt good for any race you have to evaluate the drop potential of all races. i think the problem is that protoss are trying to be 'cute' with their drops, in the sense that hurr durr lets just go 4 sentries and kill 3 scvs and then leave. the mobility of blink stalkers with a warp prism is obscene, yet we just havent seen it. or on the other hand the efficiency of 8 lings in an overlord. 1 of the main points brought up before is that bio leads to shit choices for the protoss, 10 supply of stuff will rarely clean up a drop, meaning the terran ball will be relatively stronger while the drop goes on, well theres no 4 supply of units that can kill 8 lings, and with the differences in infrastructure, zerg always has spare minerals. its not as simple as terran has a higher skill cap. i think the one thing you could say is that terran bio 'seems' to be the easiest to escape with, but again we still have basically never seen a protoss drop blink stalkers so i dont know. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On February 21 2012 20:37 Cinim wrote: And as someone already stated, terran is the race that has the most options, but foreigners don't tend to use them all to the same extent as koreans do. Foreign Terrans is very very limited in terms of different builds that they can do/want to do. That is like, not wanting to make use of your most important feature of the race In game Terran does have a lot of options, but once you go for a certain style it is very hard to transition correctly without sacrificing supply, economy and efficiency. And... it's not like Korean Terrans are doing anything different, they're just doing it better which is a clear distinction. Besides the creative all ins that they all seem to have, 90% of them will play standard, but execute it perfectly. | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
On February 21 2012 20:37 Cinim wrote: Those saying that Terran is harder at the highest level, bullshit. There is far fewer in the foreign scene who actually play terran, for whatever reason it doesn't seem to be as interesting as some other races. And as someone already stated, terran is the race that has the most options, but foreigners don't tend to use them all to the same extent as koreans do. Foreign Terrans is very very limited in terms of different builds that they can do/want to do. That is like, not wanting to make use of your most important feature of the race in other words, foreigner terrans don't all-in as much?  if there are less terrans, then the serious terrans would have MORE zerg/protoss players to practice against and less terran, which should make them better. therefore, your comment doesn't really explain how foreign terran are statistically getting worse and worse relative to the protoss/zerg rate of improvement. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On February 21 2012 20:41 ZenithM wrote: In general, European like "turtle fest" strategies and gamestyle (like Kas' 1 rax FE every single game, or every european TvT ending up killing its viewers of boredom), and it's not what Terran is the best at, simply put. Koreans have a much higher sense of the agression and unpredictability, honed by their countless hours of practice on their ladder. Just look at MKP's match history on his multiple KR account (I can tell you, I have a TW account so I can look at this). One game it's a 14 CC against zerg, the other it's a double proxy rax against Terran, you litterally can never know what he's going to do against you, even if he's most likely the better player. Foreigners somehow think that the better player should always play for the longer game and shit and playing safe, but while this mindset can work with Protoss and certainly with Zerg, it's doesn't really translate well with Terran. Also, I think that Terran is the race that performs better if you allow its player to study their opponent beforehand, to find some flaw to abuse with a precise build order/proxy placement. That's why Terran players do decently well at the GSL, while not performing as well in short live events like MLGs or Dreamhack. So my advice would be: vary up your build orders, sometimes mix in very agressive shit even if you're not forced to, foreign Terran are too turtlish. About mechanics and multitasking, I don't really think it's the problem, foreigners do have decent mechanics (not on par with MMA, MVP or MKP's, but certainly comparable to the average low Code A player). And you even got players like Sjow or Goody, who are slower than your average master Protoss (*wink*), but can still win small tournaments in Europe. So I don't think mechanics are the big factor, at least not unless you want to challenge the top of the world. I agree with this completely. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
There's a reason why plat-masters terrans are struggling significantly more than zergs or protosses in the same division, and I highly doubt that they are all worse players. They just have to do a lot more during the game. Foreign pro terrans obviously have more APM than these plat-masters, but they still are nowhere near what is required to beat their zergs and tosses. Korean terrans have the APM to utilize the units | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 21 2012 20:43 shizna wrote: in other words, foreigner terrans don't all-in as much? if there are less terrans, then the serious terrans would have MORE zerg/protoss players to practice against and less terran. therefore, your comment doesn't really explain how foreign terran are statistically getting worse and worse relative to the protoss/zerg rate of improvement. Yes it does, because if you have less Terrans overall in a distribution, then you have less Terrans in a tournament (by percent) and therefore less Terrans will win tournaments. And because of less Terrans in the distribution, this makes that there are more Zerg and Protoss players, which means more of them will compete in tournaments (by percent) and therefore more of them will win tournaments. the game is balanced around actual games, not around games*(some factor of how many people should actually be toplevel). If it was this way (meaning with a statistical theory of skill behind the players), the game would need some huge Protoss buffs and huge Zerg nerfs. | ||
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