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On February 21 2012 18:59 Ucs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 18:54 aebriol wrote:On February 21 2012 18:49 Ucs wrote:
Korean terrans win alot more in GSL because they can analize their opponent and pick him apart. If terran knows what you do they can be VERY strong, exploiting 100 diffrent timings.
MMA just picks his opponents apart with his builds. 75% of his wins are build order wins and he is the best terran in the world. Don't you see the contradiction here? The best terran in the world just 'does his builds' but all korean terrans just win because they analyze their opponents and pick them apart? As if the other races aren't trying the same ... How is that a contradiction? korean terrans analyze their opponents and pick them appart. MMA does that and wins 75% of his games with build order wins aka timing attacks that just kill his opponents outright. Zerg dosent care about replays beacuse they just have to defend and know the GENERAL style of their opponent. I can't say the same for protoss but they usually just have to pick either a aggresive stance(6 gate timing/whatever timing) or a defensive strategy(don't atatck untill you have a advantage like upgrades/tech/economy) for a opponent. After they decide that they just roll with it. (im talking about TvZ and TvP now)
Well, I can tell you that I have analyzed a lot of games and replays, and it is so much easier to get a handle on what the protoss is doing, because they are limited in a way that Terran is not. Their timings are pretty much 8:00, 8:30, 9:30, 10:00 and 10:30 - depending on the nr of gas, and whether or not you can scout any gas at 7:00 (assuming forge expand).
Terran, you have to be lucky to even get into his base to see if he took any gas (because of the wall with the incomplete second supply depot), and 4 initial marines can keep you from scouting pretty much anything (except whether or not his expansion is taken at all) - and if you take a risk with your overlords, they often get picked up by marines without scouting anything.
In addition, Terrans have timing windows from 4:00 (3 scv, 1 marine - 2 rax) to 3rd OC started at 6:00, and if you don't scout either, you very likely lose to them because the response is so different.
I would definitively say that - after trying to analyze a lot of replays, and games in the GSL, playing against terran feels very much like playing in the dark.
In ZvZ and ZvP, normally, I can check the replay and see 'if I had done this correctly, or scouted better, I would have gone ahead ... often in ZvT, I can see 'well, I did the wrong thing' but not clearly how I should have known what was the right thing.
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Their micro and control is a lot better.
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at least from my experience, terrans at the top of na ladder play a completely different style of tvp.
they play as though they have no stake if toss can get on three bases and take more risks to stop this from happening. they play much more risky with drops, poking and dropping when a kr terran never would.
they open with odd openings trying to take toss off guard with a weird composition or timing that the toss doesn't see or doesn't know exactly how to prepare for. this can consist of hellion marauder, either with 1 factory with a reactor and 2 tech labbed rax or sometimes even 2 reactor factory with 1 tech lab rax.
there seems to be a greater inclination to go all in against nexus first or 1 gate expand, either with showing no gas and proceeding to scv marine all-in instead of going 1 rax cc, or when going gas, do a reactor-tech lab 2 rax to hit a sharp bio timing with an scv pull rather than expanding off of a single rax with an addon
na terrans also seem to add on ghosts much later if they are playing less aggressively off of 2 bases, unless it's to hit some kind of ghost timing. i rarely see ghosts added timely in order to secure a 3rd or just move into the mid-late game with additional ghost tech. they seem to just love their bio+medivac and either play extremely heavy 2 base with bio or expand behind risky drop play and multi prong threats.
this philosophy of tvp is pretty short-sighted and really only benefits from a toss making mistakes rather than the terran playing exceptionally well. in that sense, you're going to see less terrans at the top because the good protosses will be able to parry the harrass and thus do quite well against a terran that is slow to move towards stronger unit comps
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Without looking into it too much (part of the problem), I genuinely believe terran is a micro race and much of the terran from the west are too passive/longer game oriented. We need to micro our race!
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They take the good maps, you know thoses with double dmg marines  .
As far as build order goes, I think the best is MKP or MvP, can make anything from the dirtiest cheese to the extremely greedy style and safe openings. It makes you unpredictable, and prevent your opponent from cutting corners (if I had to face MKP, I would be scrared because I would have no idea of what to do).
A big difference between Korean and foreigner is the agresivity/passivity. Foreigners are WAY more passive, and result in longer games, and letting the opponent in his comfort zone.
The weird thing about this is that foreigner seems to be better decisionmaking-wise in the very late game than korean, because mosty of their game goes to that point so they knwop what to do, whereas korean kill their opponent way faster in average.
Sometimes in korea a Bo5 of TvT don't see late game, wheras in EU of you have GoOdy (he's awesome but that's an other story) you're sure it will last 1-2h min.
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koreans terrans know how to force the opponent to make mistakes with early aggression and multitasking throughout the game. Foreigners aren't that clinical with their drops and their army. (imo korean terrans can see weaknesses only by scouting 1/10 of the opponent)
Another thing is they use bio + support in every matchup, so unimportant what matchup they train, their micro will get better in every matchup. If I see a korean terran use mech (because of lag or anything else) it just looks painful.
I also would argue the other korean races, just get outmicroed as they seem to be happy with getting their t3 composition. But not controlling it except from the pure basics (chargelots not on auto are rawr). Which suddenly turns a low tech heavy style that should be cost inefficient but should give you more advantages to make up for the higher cost into a style that gives you an advantage by still losing the same resources as your opponent.
And some matches you see a tech drop just when the zerg is in the middle of the map losing their pool and greater spire. Thats what i call timing snipes. And the ones that can beat the korean terrans are the ones that play a bit more unpredictable or don't let the terran force them to make mistakes.
terran was considered op in the younger stages, so alot more terrans in korea. Terran evolved just way faster there and then there was this mistake of making maps more open, so the poor zerg could fight better. Well to bad zerg and toss go deathball now and terran bio benefits so hugely from the open maps.
At the end all comes down to the terran being able to micro super effective against the opponent and prevent them from getting their composition.
And blizzard just changed at the wrong spots. If the micro makes something to good, why would you nerf the macro, just make it easier to micro for the opponent for example. Sure it gets you what you want, but you hurt the people lacking the micro more then those with the micro.
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-I'd say better micro
-Better multitasking
-More aggressive
-Willing to take the most dangerous risks (they have the do or die mentality)
-Diverse in builds
Korean terrans are hard to predict and to play or prepare for, way more then non korean terrans.
Also all those points seem to reward Terran more then even the other races, specialy the multi herass and drop play by high multitasking terrans, it's so effective.
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Korean Terrans are better than foreign counterparts in every goddamn aspect of the game. And foreigners in general suffer from a chronic indecisiveness, lack of killing instinct and a tendency to follow dumb arbitrary rules such as "No cheese", "playing the game the correct way", "no exploiting timings" and "NR10", among others.
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as whiny as it sounds terran is just harder and koreans are just better so the difference is bigger between foreign terran and korean terran than its with the other races. being good with terran actually makes a huge difference.
and no, im not brainlessly whining because im not good enough to blame balance anyway.
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On February 21 2012 19:17 FeyFey wrote:
wrong spots. If the micro makes something to good, why would you nerf the macro, just make it easier to micro for the opponent for example. Sure it gets you what you want, but you hurt the people lacking the micro more then those with the micro.
The problem isn't that the other races (exception: blink stalkers) have micro mechanics that are too hard.
The problem is that the other races (exception: blink stalkers) don't benefit from micro in the same way that Terrans do.
If the game should be more 'equal' for foreigners with lesser mechanics, marine marauder micro would need to be nerfed - or the units of the other races redesigned to allow for greater benefits from micro and decision making with smaller clumps of units.
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I don't think it's for a lot of the reasons mentioned here. Foreign terrans have the mechanics and aggression and really good strategies, easily sufficient for foreign non-terrans. I think KR terrans have much better preparation, mindgames and adaptability, three things I hardly see foreign terrans do when I watch their streams.
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Honestly in trying to become better i try to analyze many replays from non-korea terrans
If you know that korean terrans are way better, then why don't you try learning from THEM?
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Kas seems to doing pretty damn well if you ask me.
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On February 21 2012 19:28 Grackula wrote:Show nested quote +Honestly in trying to become better i try to analyze many replays from non-korea terrans If you know that korean terrans are way better, then why don't you try learning from THEM?
you know how hard it is to get Korean terran replays. its pretty dang hard. unless you watch stream vods and such, its hard to get good replays of Korean terrans.
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On February 21 2012 19:26 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 19:17 FeyFey wrote:
wrong spots. If the micro makes something to good, why would you nerf the macro, just make it easier to micro for the opponent for example. Sure it gets you what you want, but you hurt the people lacking the micro more then those with the micro. The problem isn't that the other races (exception: blink stalkers) have micro mechanics that are too hard. The problem is that the other races (exception: blink stalkers) don't benefit from micro in the same way that Terrans do. If the game should be more 'equal' for foreigners with lesser mechanics, marine marauder micro would need to be nerfed - or the units of the other races redesigned to allow for greater benefits from micro and decision making with smaller clumps of units.
I partly agree, but your descriptions come down to some PvT and ZvT scenarios.
Similar range (and/or speed) units like Zerglings and Banelings and Zealots and Roaches often allow for a lot of micro and we do see such mirco especially in ZvZ and PvP, but also in PvZ where you have to micro stalkers vs slowlings early, or roaches vs zealots all the time. It's pretty much the always existent rangeadvantage (paired with the superhigh firepower) of Terran, that just makes any direct combat micro less beneficial.
Nevertheless, I think that the game is quite balanced around the same amount of control and multitasking in nonmirror MUs. There are quite a lot of things that Ps and Zs can do to greatly influence the outcome of games, during a battle.
Not to mention that click spam micro like ball kiting or blinking (or burrow micro in the few very rare low amount monoroach vs monoroach scenarios where it makes sense) is by no means "harder" than precision micro like spells (especially high level force fields).
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korean drops are insanely scary.
The marines from the drop ship almost looks like they can fly into the mineral lines.
not only do they drop while the drop ship is moving (if the base has no defence), the marines dropped also are stimmed right away.
and they are better at abusing some positioning, the TvT feels so different in Korea than elsewhere
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On February 21 2012 18:48 VPFaith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 18:46 MafiaCheese wrote:
I feel that The True strength of the terran race is in its ability to apply pressure and harass with a multitude of openings and eventually divide and conqueor with so many different types of harassment going on at once, with the main force always on the outskirts waiting for the right moment to either to damage or destroy the protoss. The foreign scene plays terran too passively as if it was too was protoss minus the late game superiority, and then question why the protoss deathball is so strong. You are taking protoss head on when that is one of its greatest strengths. Pushing out with the first 2 medivacs and dropping 8 supply once or twice isnt enough if you are sitting on a 3 base economy all game vs an even level protoss opponent who is also 3 based. Koreans take full advantage of the versitily (unpredictable strategies), early game harassment potential, and then turn the advantage they gain no matter how big or small into a powerfull timing or a very specific army composition for the macro game. They put the protoss players in very micro intensive and difficult situations where sending too little or too many units to handle any one threat results in damage being taken somewhere else. This is what is necesary in order to build up the kind of lead that would allow a bioball to beat a deathball.
In Conclusion, Koreans play terran like a well oiled machine, dictating the pace of the game and using skillfull multipronged harassment/aggresion leading into powerfull timings and build orders, the way it was meant to be.
Foreign terrans fall into a comfortable build or two, play too predictably/passively and attempt to win the game by fighting armies head on in the later stages of the game. Mafia, you are totally correct.
The problem really is that both zerg and protoss can just sit whilst terran needs to be constantly aggressive. This results into terran just being harder to play but also having a higher skill cap so the foreigner terrans kinda fail.
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terran benefits the most from good multitasking. koreans practice a lot more, multitasking benefits a lot from practice.
rocket science
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On February 21 2012 19:58 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 18:48 VPFaith wrote:On February 21 2012 18:46 MafiaCheese wrote:
I feel that The True strength of the terran race is in its ability to apply pressure and harass with a multitude of openings and eventually divide and conqueor with so many different types of harassment going on at once, with the main force always on the outskirts waiting for the right moment to either to damage or destroy the protoss. The foreign scene plays terran too passively as if it was too was protoss minus the late game superiority, and then question why the protoss deathball is so strong. You are taking protoss head on when that is one of its greatest strengths. Pushing out with the first 2 medivacs and dropping 8 supply once or twice isnt enough if you are sitting on a 3 base economy all game vs an even level protoss opponent who is also 3 based. Koreans take full advantage of the versitily (unpredictable strategies), early game harassment potential, and then turn the advantage they gain no matter how big or small into a powerfull timing or a very specific army composition for the macro game. They put the protoss players in very micro intensive and difficult situations where sending too little or too many units to handle any one threat results in damage being taken somewhere else. This is what is necesary in order to build up the kind of lead that would allow a bioball to beat a deathball.
In Conclusion, Koreans play terran like a well oiled machine, dictating the pace of the game and using skillfull multipronged harassment/aggresion leading into powerfull timings and build orders, the way it was meant to be.
Foreign terrans fall into a comfortable build or two, play too predictably/passively and attempt to win the game by fighting armies head on in the later stages of the game. Mafia, you are totally correct. The problem really is that both zerg and protoss can just sit whilst terran needs to be constantly aggressive. This results into terran just being harder to play but also having a higher skill cap so the foreigner terrans kinda fail.
ZvT the Zerg will lose if he 'sits' on 2, later 3 bases vs a 3 base terran and isn't aggressive. Which is why the 6:00 3rd orbital command build is used quite a bit.
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On February 21 2012 20:02 IdrA wrote:
terran benefits the most from good multitasking. koreans practice a lot more, multitasking benefits a lot from practice.
rocket science
I think even beyond that, terran can force mistakes more than the other races as a result of good multi-tasking.
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EPT
