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On February 22 2012 03:03 openbox1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 20:56 Severus_ wrote:
Polt who somehow can play StarCraft2 win tournaments and go in university of seoul ( i think thats the best university in KR?) . I'm so tired of everyone quoting about how Polt is so great to balance Seoul University with SC2. Yes, getting in to that school is super impressive considering you're competing with a bunch of other students who put in 100hr study weeks to ace the entrance exams. But people who don't know the Korean school system don't realize that once you're in, its an easy ride to the finish. You could skip most of your classes which I'm sure Polt does, and as long as you matriculate with a ok average, you're fine. If you're in the right faculty, the classes are easy, and its a straight road to a cushy job at Samsung, Hyundai, LG, Kookmin, KEB, etc.... Hell, Ivy league universities are tough to get in but once you get inside, its cruise control to graduating magna or summa cum laude I can tell you, especially if you study for a crap major like economics or some other liberal arts crap. Especially if you've gone through a rigorous East Asian education system. Same with biz school. I hear that law/medical schools are a little more difficult though.
Oh look, this guy is an expert on Korean Universities!
Gimme a break -.-
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On February 22 2012 08:38 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 08:37 HellionDrop wrote:On February 22 2012 08:32 jinorazi wrote:On February 22 2012 08:29 HellionDrop wrote:On February 22 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:
i think the stereotype still applies in sc2: korea = micro(aggression), foreigner = macro(power up).
with that said, terran benefits most from detailed micro and in my personal opinion, micro is key in tvz (for terran).
varies from player to player...i'm not sure. i disagree, Koreans are better at both micro and macro. i didnt say who's better at what, just saying the difference of focus  but yes, korean, 4th race, is obviously op. i don't think koreans focus more on micro per se, they practice alot so they can get many things done without slipping either one too much. i was just talking in general...of the old bw stereotype... sorry if distracted you with my silly comment XD
The old stereotype definitely applies to levels below progamers.
Mediocre Korean masters and diamonds will get supply blocked and bank 2k while theyre microing their small group of marines or stalkers or mutas.
Mediocre foreign masters will sit home macroing, never getting supply blocked and never banking above 1k, but their armies aren't doing shit.
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Must have been said a thousand times in the forum but I'll say it again:
Koreans have the required multitasking proficiency to use terran to its potential, whereas foreigners do not. While varied builds also matter, as in the case of ThorZaIN who makes amazing builds, the koreans who can multitask the best (MMA, MVP, Jjakji) are exceptionally good terrans.
I didn't follow BW but I hear that besides the few top terrans that terran does badly ? I suppose that supports this theory since terran is relatively unchanged from BW in essence.
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On February 22 2012 04:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 20:02 IdrA wrote:
terran benefits the most from good multitasking. koreans practice a lot more, multitasking benefits a lot from practice.
rocket science This pretty much clears it up for me. All the theories about why terrans are doing poorly and their win rates have not dropped that much.(this is the moment where you go to SCranks and pull some random , cherry picked stats to prove me wrong) I see thread after thread posting how terran is so much harder than the other two races. How the skill curve for terran has a hard climb, but not for Koreans because they are better for some reason. Yet, few make the next leap and say "Damn, I should be more like them. Give me those replays." Instead, its about how horrible the game is and how their opponents beat them with far less skill. Now this is not all terrans. Some are really set on getting better and do not turn to inbalance every time they lose. I love playing against them and maybe they will be the only terrans left after a while. I'm not sure that is really a bad thing.
Thats why i love watching Kas play, even as a Protoss.
Every time im watching an euro toss streaming and he plays Kas, it amazes me how much stuff Kas produces in such short period.
I think marine/tank openings will be more common in PvT.
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Russian Federation949 Posts
Honestly for TvZ the biggest thing is- THEY NEVER unsiege all their tanks, while foreigner terrans seem to never siege in time, specificaly Strelok infact, most TvZ i have seen him lose is because of bad tank unsieging.
Also- foreigners seem to not utilize terran buildings in mutch-ups, way less aggresive bunkers when pushing with 150 food, way less landing the factory to bait zealot charge on it instead of bio, way less creating artifitial choke points in the middle of the map with buildings
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Russian Federation949 Posts
On February 22 2012 08:43 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 08:38 jinorazi wrote:On February 22 2012 08:37 HellionDrop wrote:On February 22 2012 08:32 jinorazi wrote:On February 22 2012 08:29 HellionDrop wrote:On February 22 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:
i think the stereotype still applies in sc2: korea = micro(aggression), foreigner = macro(power up).
with that said, terran benefits most from detailed micro and in my personal opinion, micro is key in tvz (for terran).
varies from player to player...i'm not sure. i disagree, Koreans are better at both micro and macro. i didnt say who's better at what, just saying the difference of focus but yes, korean, 4th race, is obviously op. i don't think koreans focus more on micro per se, they practice alot so they can get many things done without slipping either one too much. i was just talking in general...of the old bw stereotype... sorry if distracted you with my silly comment XD The old stereotype definitely applies to levels below progamers. Mediocre Korean masters and diamonds will get supply blocked and bank 2k while theyre microing their small group of marines or stalkers or mutas. Mediocre foreign masters will sit home macroing, never getting supply blocked and never banking above 1k, but their armies aren't doing shit.
that is true, funny enough, upto masters level macroing is def way more important as terran, but at masters micro is the king
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Imo, the Korean terrans are all excellent at controlling the flow of the game in their favor. It's really hard to explain how they do it but there is something weird in how in control of the game they always are, even if they aren't playing particularly aggressive. It's something that I can't quite wrap my finger around..
The foreigner terrans often seem quite submissive, in some weird way.
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I think that one of the most important point to answer this question is to look at spellcasters and endgame ; and more precisely to look at spellcasters' AoEs.
While High Templars and Infestors AoEs are effective against *most* armies, Ghosts' AoE (aka Emp) sole role is to counter other spellcasters (and remove some shield to protoss armies, but 3 or 4 ghosts will not whipe a whole protoss ball while their protoss counterpart can demolish a whole bioball).
Given infinite APM this would not be a problem and it would be far more *balanced*, but this is the real world and here come the point stated by many others in this thread: Koreans have more APM and are able to micro better, particularly their ghosts for terrans. Probably the reason why they have more success.
Nerfing all AoEs (even EMP) across the board would probably lead to better balance and more interesting games (seeing a whole army being Fugaled/EMPed/Stormed because of 1 sec attention drop leading to a worse player to win is not fun, at least for me).
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On February 22 2012 09:00 Bidj wrote:
I think that one of the most important point to answer this question is to look at spellcasters and endgame ; and more precisely to look at spellcasters' AoEs.
While High Templars and Infestors AoEs are effective against *most* armies, Ghosts' AoE (aka Emp) sole role is to counter other spellcasters (and remove some shield to protoss armies, but 3 or 4 ghosts will not whipe a whole protoss ball while their protoss counterpart can demolish a whole bioball).
Given infinite APM this would not be a problem and it would be far more *balanced*, but this is the real world and here come the point stated by many others in this thread: Koreans have more APM and are able to micro better, particularly their ghosts for terrans. Probably the reason why they have more success.
Nerfing all AoEs (even EMP) across the board would probably lead to better balance and more interesting games (seeing a whole army being Fugaled/EMPed/Stormed because of 1 sec attention drop leading to a worse player to win is not fun, at least for me).
Huh, what? How does any of this explain why Korean terrans are better than foreigner terrans? How does controlling a single unit better like Ghost suddenly make the difference between MMA and Thorzain for example. That's just silly. :p
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Honestly? I think a lot of it is mentality.
Huk, Stephano, Naniwa all believe that they can be the best, while it seems like "most top terrans" don't attempt to surpass, let's say MVP and MMA.
Also, apart from the usual "koreans practice more/multitask better" I think they play a lot more forceful. Hmm ... I guess, what I mean is, that the korean terrans hit you mentally, while the foreign ones doesn't. They deny you "your understanding" of the game, and fake you/cheese you/eco cheese you/play standard/whatever, and thus you fall off your balance.
Also, a couple months ago all the whine was on terrans and 1/1/1. Now it's protoss and their "imba lategame". I wonder what will be next.
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On February 21 2012 18:10 KAmaKAsa wrote:
Koreans are better and the hardest race to play at the highest level is terran then protoss then zerg
go back to bronze.
and my answer is that Korean Terrans are not afraid to allin, and because their execution is probably better than the foreigners, well the allins are more succesfull and so is terrans in general.
Im probably wrong but thats my take on it.
User was warned for this post
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On February 22 2012 09:14 Samp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 18:10 KAmaKAsa wrote:
Koreans are better and the hardest race to play at the highest level is terran then protoss then zerg go back to bronze. and my answer is that Korean Terrans are not afraid to allin, and because their execution is probably better than the foreigners, well the allins are more succesfull and so is terrans in general. Im probably wrong but thats my take on it.
It's good that you're comfortable being wrong like that 
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Koreans simply play better across the board. They practice more and they get more out of their practice because they practice with a higher level of competition.
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On February 22 2012 09:07 namste wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 09:00 Bidj wrote:
I think that one of the most important point to answer this question is to look at spellcasters and endgame ; and more precisely to look at spellcasters' AoEs.
While High Templars and Infestors AoEs are effective against *most* armies, Ghosts' AoE (aka Emp) sole role is to counter other spellcasters (and remove some shield to protoss armies, but 3 or 4 ghosts will not whipe a whole protoss ball while their protoss counterpart can demolish a whole bioball).
Given infinite APM this would not be a problem and it would be far more *balanced*, but this is the real world and here come the point stated by many others in this thread: Koreans have more APM and are able to micro better, particularly their ghosts for terrans. Probably the reason why they have more success.
Nerfing all AoEs (even EMP) across the board would probably lead to better balance and more interesting games (seeing a whole army being Fugaled/EMPed/Stormed because of 1 sec attention drop leading to a worse player to win is not fun, at least for me). Huh, what? How does any of this explain why Korean terrans are better than foreigner terrans? How does controlling a single unit better like Ghost suddenly make the difference between MMA and Thorzain for example. That's just silly. :p
I probably worded it very poorly but to answer your example, controlling this single unit named ghost better is the difference between having your whole army whiped by Storms (Thorzain) or not (MMA).
Koreans simply play better across the board. They practice more and they get more out of their practice because they practice with a higher level of competition.
This point, while being probably true, as already been posted 50 times in this thread and does not explain AT ALL while there is a difference in winrates between Koreans' and Foreigners' TvZ and TvP.
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hhmmmmhmhmhmhmm, I think I'm here to solve the case! well maybe not but I'm really confident about my answer since ive been playing around with this idea for a long time.
Terran isn't harder or more complicated. The skill ceiling is higher. With perfect terran micro I can win battles I shouldnt win. With perfect zerg micro I will just make sure i dont lose everything to one tank shot but its just not the same skill-reward kind of trade. I think the only way to solve this terran being nerfed to death and only korean terrans can keep up is give zerg or portoss and equal way to raise their skill ceiling. If i can micro my mutas while he has to micro his marines in a battle of cost efficienty suddenly this becomes an equal trade. If toss needs to micro his zealots instead of them all just auto charging in this becomes a battle of how good does toss charge his zealots and how well does terran stutter step. Tho in PvT theres the ghost vs templar. I think this trade is okay-ish in PvT as in you still have the viking focus fire with stalkers the collosus pull back and the forcefields but for ZvT this is just terrible I feel so powerless when fighting a battle the outcome of it is 80% dependend on how well does terran focus fire and split. Wich means my same amount of ling bane will kill all the foreign tank pushes but suddenly i play against a korean who split just slightly better or macros while splitting slightly better and i lose the game.
The problem wont resolve untill we have equal skill ceilings where zerg isnt only about when do i drone and how well do i inject. I now also have to micro this or that. I'm sorry but i'm going to make a broodwar refference. It was so incredibly hard to micro and macro that game balance only mattered so much the better player would usually win by decision making and mechanics. While in starcraft because the ui is so friendly and the skill ceilings are lower suddenly these huge balance gaps and weird race statistics for every area pop up. Blizzard has 2 options: Add skill ceiling to the game or just agree to one race eventually beating everything. However silly this may sound there will never be perfect balance because the way the three races work. So to make this a long lasting esport there will have to be things the pro player can do to improve while for example a low league player wont have trouble with.
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On February 22 2012 09:38 cLunAsTyY wrote:
hhmmmmhmhmhmhmm, I think I'm here to solve the case! well maybe not but I'm really confident about my answer since ive been playing around with this idea for a long time.
Terran isn't harder or more complicated. The skill ceiling is higher. With perfect terran micro I can win battles I shouldnt win. With perfect zerg micro I will just make sure i dont lose everything to one tank shot but its just not the same skill-reward kind of trade. I think the only way to solve this terran being nerfed to death and only korean terrans can keep up is give zerg or portoss and equal way to raise their skill ceiling. If i can micro my mutas while he has to micro his marines in a battle of cost efficienty suddenly this becomes an equal trade. If toss needs to micro his zealots instead of them all just auto charging in this becomes a battle of how good does toss charge his zealots and how well does terran stutter step. Tho in PvT theres the ghost vs templar. I think this trade is okay-ish in PvT as in you still have the viking focus fire with stalkers the collosus pull back and the forcefields but for ZvT this is just terrible I feel so powerless when fighting a battle the outcome of it is 80% dependend on how well does terran focus fire and split. Wich means my same amount of ling bane will kill all the foreign tank pushes but suddenly i play against a korean who split just slightly better or macros while splitting slightly better and i lose the game.
The problem wont resolve untill we have equal skill ceilings where zerg isnt only about when do i drone and how well do i inject. I now also have to micro this or that. I'm sorry but i'm going to make a broodwar refference. It was so incredibly hard to micro and macro that game balance only mattered so much the better player would usually win by decision making and mechanics. While in starcraft because the ui is so friendly and the skill ceilings are lower suddenly these huge balance gaps and weird race statistics for every area pop up. Blizzard has 2 options: Add skill ceiling to the game or just agree to one race eventually beating everything. However silly this may sound there will never be perfect balance because the way the three races work. So to make this a long lasting esport there will have to be things the pro player can do to improve while for example a low league player wont have trouble with.
Great post, a lot of ppl think about this topic and immediately start looking at only Terran. You have to consider the other races as well, What do they have to pull off compared to a Terran.
Watching the MKP example (page 1) is a great example of a very high skill ceiling Terran play that only the koreans seem capable of (consistently like... the last two years). Now of course you can copy the style of this play, hit your timings and be aggressive, but my question and this sounds weird because the OP is a pro player...
Can you match this skill ceiling Strelok? Can you harass perfectly while macroing while hitting timings spot on every time? Can you have 10 builds prepped for every MU and hit them spot on every time with very minimal errors? Can you do this every game in a bo3 or bo5?
When watching Foreign players do Z or P vs T it seems quite opposite, big mistakes aside, I see a lot less clutch 400 apm play being required for them to succeed.
Now obviously, Ive seen foreigners do some amazing things with Terran, I remember a MLG last summer where Major did a sick 3 prong attack vs a toss perfectly. But I have yet to see a Foreign Terran consistently pull off insane micro/insane macro for an entire tournament, I only see a couple highlights. But nothing like the Korean T's that have been raping since release.
What makes it sadder, is you can ask the same questions to a Master league or lower leagues Terrans and the situation is way worse, even at Masters level, doing the clutch 400 apm play that Terran requires compared to Z or P is really hard
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It's the most microable race and Koreans have high APM to do it.
Look at their units. All the infantryman with stim. Dropships. Ghosts. Banshee w cloak, Tanks. etc - all require crazy micro to use properly. Protoss has some like blink or FF or HT but most are just 1A and retreat micro. Zerg basically every unit is 1A retreat. Notice how good foreign Zergs are?
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Terran benefits more from good practice and foreign progamers aren't organized enough to play the race at the same level as zerg and protoss. Also with the last patch I believe korean terrans will have a lot of trouble aswell.
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On February 22 2012 10:10 aTnClouD wrote:
Terran benefits more from good practice and foreign progamers aren't organized enough to play the race at the same level as zerg and protoss. Also with the last patch I believe korean terrans will have a lot of trouble aswell.
Thats another really interesting perspective on the issue, never thought of that.
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They just have way better mechanics.The koreans are always microing something, and almost never look in their base except for split seconds to throw down more depots or build more production buildings. They know where the other guy's army is at all times, and can micro battles perfectly. It's quite amazing to watch them do all this stuff so quickly. Foreign terrans though, are a lot slower. Think about it. Sjow, Thorzain, Goody, even Kas are known for having low apm. They are amazing strategists, and thus they are able to do pretty well for themselves outside of korea, but koreans have the same great strategic minds, AND they're able to execute perfectly.
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EPT
