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On February 22 2012 10:00 tdt wrote:
It's the most microable race and Koreans have high APM to do it.
Look at their units. All the infantryman with stim. Dropships. Ghosts. Banshee w cloak, Tanks. etc - all require crazy micro to use properly. Protoss has some like blink or FF or HT but most are just 1A and retreat micro. Zerg basically every unit is 1A retreat. Notice how good foreign Zergs are?
That...
Was pretty accurate lol
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Strelok, maybe you should consider switching to P or Z because the terran nerf train ain't stopping.
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On February 22 2012 10:25 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 10:00 tdt wrote:
It's the most microable race and Koreans have high APM to do it.
Look at their units. All the infantryman with stim. Dropships. Ghosts. Banshee w cloak, Tanks. etc - all require crazy micro to use properly. Protoss has some like blink or FF or HT but most are just 1A and retreat micro. Zerg basically every unit is 1A retreat. Notice how good foreign Zergs are? That... Was pretty accurate lol
This doesnt mean that zerg is necesarely easier but you could say that zergs can win more on a game sense / theory game while terran HAS to win it in multitasking or rather mechanics. In an ideal world both would be viable. But unfortunately were not there yet. This would mean that foreigners are maybe stronger at game sense and tactics and koreans often focus on mechanics. This would also match the foreign zergs/toss win vs korean terrans but foreign terrans cant win.
Also maybe once weve practiced another year foreign terrans will have caught up they might not start destroying tourneys like lets say a stephano right now but atleast theyll be able to take games of koreans. In the end every player has a max potential and it seems the way that koreans have a very clean and fast method to reach this quick where as foreigners are a bit more scrappy in their practice. So maybe it just takes some time to catch up. Tho this is by no means accurate theres a good chance koreans will keep leaping ahead. Well just have to wait for the expansions and hope they will balance the race skill ceilings a bit better.
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I think europeans players practice style is the problem, when Korean terrans hit a tricky build on ladder they keep playing against that build in customs until they've figured out the answer. When eu players play against a tricky build they watch a replay and then they cue up next ladder game. I feel Koreans have a bigger emphasise on execution also, keep executing a certain build in a certain scenario until its perfected.
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HiHi Strelok. Ukrainian WARSHIP!
I don't know why the Kor-non kor race balance is so different. It's a really hard question, and one that informs a lot of the questionable balance decisions blizzard has been making.
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Race design in sc2 is the real elephant in the room for the game and I think that is what is being implied here. You can make all the excuses for why foreign terrans arent good compared to foreign protoss/zerg, but the issue lies in race design problems in sc2... yet there is nothing we can do about it, i just wish that people would stop trying to make excuses for blizzard and demand they actually do something about it.
I refuse to accept that the foreign players that have beaten top koreans in tournaments would have done so if they were terran players. as a dumb example yet a poignant one, MKP had to nuke his whole damn army to lose to one of NAs top terrans. yet getting a little too greedy or making a small micro mistake would lose him a match or series to a top NA protoss or zerg.
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On February 22 2012 10:00 tdt wrote:
It's the most microable race and Koreans have high APM to do it.
Look at their units. All the infantryman with stim. Dropships. Ghosts. Banshee w cloak, Tanks. etc - all require crazy micro to use properly. Protoss has some like blink or FF or HT but most are just 1A and retreat micro. Zerg basically every unit is 1A retreat. Notice how good foreign Zergs are?
I too agree with this.
Terran as a race has an incredible ability to punish mistakes. Not watching your minimap? Hellion runby. Stim drop snipes tech. Not scouting? Cloakshees. Tech switch through reactor/tech lab switching. Not watching you army? Siege tanks just ripped it apart from the high ground. Not pressuring enough? Mule spam (don't have to use scan).
But really, only Korean players on very rigorous practice schedules to keep their game sense in tip-top shape have the ability to abuse all of these options to their fullest effect. Foreigners might recognize some timings and the larger mistakes, but Koreans, with their generally very high APM, will exploit ALL of your mistakes, hitting you from multiple sides at once.
Zerg player getting too much map control? Mass drops and hellion runbies to keep him in his base, all the while sieging the center to take control back.
Protoss player giving you trouble? Stim drop to snipe tech with 2 reactored hellions in a different expansion. Then still manage to hit a nice timing window and stop the toss from taking their next base.
It's the different ways in which they use the aggressive capabilities of their race that separate Korean terrans from foreigners.
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Agree with everyone talking about Terran micro. The race is by far the best design when talking about skill ceiling. It provides way more utility than Protoss and Zerg and allows for more complicated play and complex strategy. Imagine if splitting Zerg units made a difference or stutter-step was as big of a deal for Protoss. When I off-race Terran I find that my focus is mostly on army control but when I'm on my main account as Zerg my lifeline is based on solid macro and expanding. The only Zerg units that are microable with any real result are mutas and infestors. Lings, roaches, banes, hydras, corrupters, ultras and broodlords all have almost no real micro for a couple of reasons. The first is that many are melee units and the only objective is to be right up next to the target. The second is based on mobility. Hydras, corrupters, ultras and broodlords are all limited by mobility in some fashion (either being slow, large or both). Consequently, these are almost always single use units and fill niche roles in many cases. Lings and roaches seem to be the only catchall units that aren't micro-intensive.
There isn't such thing as an a-move Terran unit besides maybe BCs and this comes back down to mobility. This is why Korean Terran's will always have to be nerfed in WoL. It's because their skill is dictating how good the race is, not the race's balance. This is why I think HotS is going to be amazing for Zerg. With the addition of two micro-intensive units in the Viper and potentially the Swarm Host we should see a much more dynamic Zerg race. Protoss still hang in the balance and the only thing that has been done to help the race is to change how strong units are. As result, the high level players have less chance to maximize Zerg and Protoss. I think the addition of micro based units is something that will help level the game out in this regard and we'll likely start seeing nerfs for the other two races as top-tiered Koreans use skill to increase each unit's effectiveness.
In comparison to foreigners, the Korean work ethic is just better. There might be individual foreign players with comparable training schedules to Koreans but teams aren't the same for foreign players. If there were more team houses that operated as intensely as a Korean team house then I would imagine foreign players, Terran in particular, would have the ability to squeeze every ounce of usefulness from their units as well.
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Honestly I think Koreans are based more on Timing Attacks in TvP. They seem to try to end the game before the 15 minute mark. I feel that the Terran army gets weaker vs. Protoss after the 18ish minute mark when 3-3 hits, and Protoss likely has Charge/HTs and Col in production. It forces too many units from Terran, you have to halt Medivac production, make sure you have Ghost Academy, and upgrading Mobius Reactor and Cloak. On top of that Terran will typically have 6-8 Barracks w/ 5-6 Tech Labs. Slows Marauder Production, and takes lots of gas. Soon when 3-3 hits Terran is still likely behind on Upgrades, has to deal w/ Storms, Archon, Chargelot, and Colosuss. So w/ low Medivac count, and needing around 10-14 Vikings to effectively deflect the Colosuss before they do significant splash damage to the Terran Bio. On top of that Ghosts are required to be near the front to keep HTs from Getting their storm off before EMP, thus making them VERY vulnerable to Chargelots if they have 1 Ob. I fell that Terran really relies on the Protoss player to make a mistake in the late game. This is my opinion of TvP, and I've been preaching it for quite sometime now, and my theory proved me even more correct when MarineKing gave a similar opinion on GSL's Off The Record.
I think that someone should do some investigating and see Terran's win rate after the 15 Minute mark in TvP. Maybe check all the games from MLG Columbus to Providence, also see stats from GSL, and other leagues where there are top tiered Koreans and Foreigners compete. This is definitely something worth looking into. I have a feeling that Terran's win rate drops to around 35% after the 15 minute mark.
TvZ I feel the same about. Mutas push Terran towards a couple Thors, thus limiting the Tank production. If Terran isn't careful the Thor can easily be taking out via Magic Boxing Mutas. Once Infestors hit and Hive tech finishes Terran is in trouble, especially after the recent patch(they really should have just removed scroll click, and not nerf Ghosts). Once again w/ Medivac production grinding to a halt, and Vikings come into play. On top of that you are making Ghosts, trying to keep a constant flow of Tanks, expanding, and trying to be aggressive as possible. All of this can be difficult to handle even at the highest of levels. Its a match up that I feel Zerg has to make the mistake for Terran to get the upper hand in the late game. Terran can be very strong in the early game, but that early aggression can also be stopped quite quickly and easily by Zerg. That is why I think more Foreigners prefer to do early CC builds in the MU. It seems safer, but I feel positions on the maps can play too much of a role in going FE.
Just my opinion of the MU, and I am sure I'll get plenty of hate for it :D
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On February 22 2012 11:11 Grohg wrote:
There isn't such thing as an a-move Terran unit besides maybe BCs and this comes back down to mobility. This is why Korean Terran's will always have to be nerfed in WoL. It's because their skill is dictating how good the race is, not the race's balance. This is why I think HotS is going to be amazing for Zerg. With the addition of two micro-intensive units in the Viper and potentially the Swarm Host we should see a much more dynamic Zerg race. Protoss still hang in the balance and the only thing that has been done to help the race is to change how strong units are. As result, the high level players have less chance to maximize Zerg and Protoss. I think the addition of micro based units is something that will help level the game out in this regard and we'll likely start seeing nerfs for the other two races as top-tiered Koreans use skill to increase each unit's effectiveness.
Micro-intensive units? I'm sorry but what?
Viper micro currently consist of throwing down 1-2 clouds at the start of the fight. Swarm hosts seem literally impossible to micro, you just set a rally point for the locusts and thats it.
Ultralisk charge and moving burrowed banes mean those units will actually need less micro. If things stay the way they are, zerg will actually be EASIER to play.
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On February 22 2012 12:00 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 11:11 Grohg wrote:
There isn't such thing as an a-move Terran unit besides maybe BCs and this comes back down to mobility. This is why Korean Terran's will always have to be nerfed in WoL. It's because their skill is dictating how good the race is, not the race's balance. This is why I think HotS is going to be amazing for Zerg. With the addition of two micro-intensive units in the Viper and potentially the Swarm Host we should see a much more dynamic Zerg race. Protoss still hang in the balance and the only thing that has been done to help the race is to change how strong units are. As result, the high level players have less chance to maximize Zerg and Protoss. I think the addition of micro based units is something that will help level the game out in this regard and we'll likely start seeing nerfs for the other two races as top-tiered Koreans use skill to increase each unit's effectiveness.
Micro-intensive units? I'm sorry but what? Viper micro currently consist of throwing down 1-2 clouds at the start of the fight. Swarm hosts seem literally impossible to micro, you just set a rally point for the locusts and thats it. Ultralisk charge and moving burrowed banes mean those units will actually need less micro. If things stay the way they are, zerg will actually be EASIER to play.
I don't think you understand that you wont' just burrow the swarm host and let their units go. You will want to control when they go, where they go, and not let them get surrounded kind of like the lurker in that aspect.
I mean by your logic in BW there wasn't lurker micro, it was just burrow and watch their spines hit enemy units which isn't true at all.
Same with the viper/defiler. Both require micro you are just looking at it to simple. Actually re-reading your post I am pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about -_-.
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I understand that these units are more strategic and take more careful use and planning that most zerg units, however that is not the same as micro intensive. Marines are micro intensive, hellions are micro intensive. You probably have to keep a constant eye on your swarm host so that it doesnt get sniped, but there really isn't much micro involved once it is burrowed, other than retreating if needed. That does not require excellent mechanics to pull off the way a marine split does. A lurker comparision is kinda stupid since lurkers only had pretty short range and an AOE attack that depended largely on positioning, whereas swarm hosts seem like siege units that are meant to be kept out of harms way just spitting out units.
Actually, the more I look at these units the more I think they just force the terran opponent to react with, you guessed it, more micro. Vipers and swarmhosts force you to constantly reposition your army, which is easier said than done when siege tanks are involved. Burrow-charging ultralisks mean that the terran needs to have perfect control to get a cost effective trade, unless ultras get nerfed heavily and you can just tank them with your own units.
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Korean Terrans just abuse their multi-tasking and micro capabilities, and they as a whole are totally devoted to all-out aggression. NOT all-in, but always poking and prodding, and if they find even the smallest weakness or gap they can exploit, they'll attack and cause damage.
I think foreign players are too regimented in their timings and gameplay. Whenever I watch Thorzain play (not to shit on his play, spoon terran's a wrecking ball), he has a set of really predictable attacks he likes to do such as waiting for 4 medivacs and +1, and then attacking another Terran. But whenever I watch Taeja or MMA play, they seem to throw units everywhere. In TvZ, the moment MMA gets his first medivac he starts dropping, and he continues to drop regardless of the consequences, whereas Thorzain will wait for more medivacs or tanks and then drop.
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On February 22 2012 12:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 12:00 Bagi wrote:On February 22 2012 11:11 Grohg wrote:
There isn't such thing as an a-move Terran unit besides maybe BCs and this comes back down to mobility. This is why Korean Terran's will always have to be nerfed in WoL. It's because their skill is dictating how good the race is, not the race's balance. This is why I think HotS is going to be amazing for Zerg. With the addition of two micro-intensive units in the Viper and potentially the Swarm Host we should see a much more dynamic Zerg race. Protoss still hang in the balance and the only thing that has been done to help the race is to change how strong units are. As result, the high level players have less chance to maximize Zerg and Protoss. I think the addition of micro based units is something that will help level the game out in this regard and we'll likely start seeing nerfs for the other two races as top-tiered Koreans use skill to increase each unit's effectiveness.
Micro-intensive units? I'm sorry but what? Viper micro currently consist of throwing down 1-2 clouds at the start of the fight. Swarm hosts seem literally impossible to micro, you just set a rally point for the locusts and thats it. Ultralisk charge and moving burrowed banes mean those units will actually need less micro. If things stay the way they are, zerg will actually be EASIER to play. I don't think you understand that you wont' just burrow the swarm host and let their units go. You will want to control when they go, where they go, and not let them get surrounded kind of like the lurker in that aspect. I mean by your logic in BW there wasn't lurker micro, it was just burrow and watch their spines hit enemy units which isn't true at all. Same with the viper/defiler. Both require micro you are just looking at it to simple. Actually re-reading your post I am pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about -_-.
From what we seen of the swarm host, the locusts are way to slow for any decent micro.
So you run to an enemy army while on fire, burrow your swarm host and then those sloooow things pop up and your opponent can basically focus fire them down.
Lurker could run in burrow, and kept attacking at a decent speed.
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People will just eventually come to terms that Terran isn't a viable race for the overwhelming percentage of players. The only people successful with it are ex A-level broodwar players pretty much.
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For me the biggest difference is army movement and aggressiveness. Koreans constantly move armies in a better and more intense way and attain better map control. They fight for xelnaga 5x as much as foreigners. They constantly use medivacs with a purpose, as a distraction to gain position with their main army, while foreigners send them more randomly and uncoordinated.
But since ukrainian terrans are #2 in the world after Korea, I should focus on what I think is the difference between you and the best korean terrans. And I think the difference is contained in army movement.
Top koreans move their armies in a much braver manner than foreigners. More intense. They fight for map control by being in your face with intensive army movement. I take west xelnaga tower? They stim 5 marine and send there. But at the same time they think about my reaction (with my main army) and move to east xelnaga tower with their main army to create another threat. They take east tower but back off again instantly and move again to another tower. Then they drop, 1-2 places, BAM main army moves forward where vision is secured, marines picked up again by medivac perfectly and are on standby for another drop. Zerg sees main army outside his base or expos and panics. Now I need to divide my army to defend 2 drops and do giant attack on terran main army.
My point is not that foreigners can't play like I explain above. But that a top korean moves his army 2x as much as a foreigner. A top korean fights for xelnaga maybe 5x as much as a foreigner terran. That's at least what it feels like when I played them.
Best army movement in a foreigner terran is Kas. He is a very "in your face"-style player with strange unexpected army movements. Sometimes they are idiotic but they are at the same time very intensive in their frequency. This high frequency and instensity eventually forces a mistake from the zerg. A player like Kas who is top foreigner when it comes to army movement has maybe 15-20 chances in a TvZ game to force a critical mistake from the zerg player. If you compare to most other top foreigners with passive movements and huge attacks at mostly predictable timings, they will perhaps only have half the chances Kas has to find a good opportunity, opening or timing to break the zerg.
A lot of the stuff Kas does (talking about the way he sends attacks) seems stupid and risky to me when watching replays. But it works because there is such a high intensity in the attacks and because he thinks a lot about vision and smart army movements. Only problem with Kas is he dies too much vs. stupid zergs who do random unexplicable shit back to him. But I didn't play him in many months, so perhaps he morphed into a korean by now.
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One part of the problem lies in the lategame. unfortunately, lets face it, terran is the weakest race in the lategame.
Both zerg and protoss have features that give a superstrong lategame. For Protoss it is Warpgate with the ability to almost instaremax and for Zerg it is a vioelet map full of creep and hundreds of larva that allow for relatively fast remaxes and even more brutal techswitches from broodlord to ultra for example.
The only really great thing for terrans in lategame is sacrificing scvs and building orbitals. Planetarys are pretty much useless vs 3/3 armies. Here an interestig thread to how races do in endgame compared to earlygame:Thread
I think that foreigners tend to be players that have their own style that they want to carry on to the end game for a "sure" win. The koreans and im talking about the code S pros tend to favor a lot more harrasment playstyles and timing attacks, that surprisingly also take sick amounts of micro to pull off, but more often than not end the game in the midgame.
Also a foreign teran will have a much harder time to invent the same good thoughtout builds that the collective genius of a a SlayersTeam house can create.
Last but not least there is micro:
Terran doesnt have melee units to begin with.Melee units need the fewest babysitting of all units: you attack and if u lose you retreat. Ranged units have to run from melee units (Zergling zealot ultra [also banelings]) . if they dont run the battle produces a miserable result for the ranged units. As terran has no melee units to tank vs other melee units the terran army has to run and stutter step a lot which requires more practice and apm.
About splash units: Terran have the siege tank which again needs a lot of babysitting because you have to siege and unsiege and also if you unsiege all at onetime you just lose. protoos and zerg have walking splashunits baneling ultra and coloss and also spellcasters that destroy terrans army if not perfectly split.
Hence terran needs a higher amount of clicks and actions in battles to be costeffective. This favours korean terran because of the special "Korean blood: u gain double apm" ability.
here is the problem: If played perfectly terran is stronger than the other races: perfect marine splits could potentially defeat every zerg and also medivacs provide the ability for players to shine with insane multitasking.
Thats why we still see many korean terrans do so well in Code S where players have hours and hours of practice for their micro and also, importantly, compared to foreign pros who farm their money in playhem dailys and zotacs other weeklys etc.. the GSL players have weeks to practie builds that are perfect for a specific -map and play of your oponnent- scenario which gives terrans better opportunities to pull off well thoughtout allins that can deny a zerg or protoss a comfortable late game.
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I don't think it has anything to do with korean play more agressive than others. I have seen the game that MVP played really passive and really save but still win.In fact Most of his games are like that. He know what he is doing. Many terran players including me just want to drop/harass for the sake of drop and don't do any damage. MVP knows what he should do at every stage of game and he can excute it really well. I don't agree that you have to play like MMA to win a game as terran too except maybe TvP at this state. I think it's all about mechanic. Korean terrans just have much better mechanic than foreigners. I see foreigners terran do the same strats as korean all the time but it just doesn't work.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
Interesting topic. My observation is that foreigners (and not just Terran players) seem to be caught up in this mentality of trying to play a theoretically perfect game, where their opponent never had an opportunity to kill them and where they never risked overextending with any aggression of their own. It's actually quite a pervasive attitude in the international SC2 community that anything risky or unsafe is somehow a "cheesy" or improper way of playing the game, and you see it from pro players and non-players alike.
Korean players (again, not just the Terrans), in contrast, seem to see the game as one of taking calculated risks, and are perfectly comfortable playing in a way that is not at all safe as long as they believe, based on their many thousands of games of experience taking risks and having risks taken against them, that the potential reward outweighs the risk. I'm not privy to the details of foreigners practice regimens, but I wonder if in practice, they generally play too passively and conservatively to develop this game sense for when certain risks are worth taking and when they are not. In tournament games, most foreigners seem to usually (if not overwhelmingly) play a very passive, conservative, risk-averse style, and when they do go all in, it is usually a very basic prepared all-in that they were intending to do from the start of the game, and very often, the all-in does not appear very practiced. In contrast, much Korean play revolves around executing builds that can branch into different possible timings or all-ins depending on what the player is able to scout and what he thinks his opponent is thinking. Because Koreans have so much experience playing aggressively and taking calculated risks, they seem to have a sense for when a particular attack--whether it's just a small poke or a complete all-in--is likely enough to be successful that it's a smart risk to take, and similarly they have a sense for the opportunity to take smart economic risks, not as a specifically prepared strategy but as a reaction to what they see from their opponent in-game.
So what does this have to do with Terran in particular? I think the answer is that Terran benefit most from this kind of unpredictable, risky style of play. It allows them to put their opponent in the position where they feel like they are playing a guessing game. It makes them nervous, uncertain, and forces mistakes. And it helps them get substantially ahead or end the game before Zerg and Protoss are able to create their most cost-efficient endgame unit compositions, which Terrans (even Korean Terrans) are struggling to overcome right now.
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As for what you should do about it and how you can fix it? It's hard because the majority of the protosses and zergs you will play and practice with will do strange and stupid builds with suboptimal execution. It's hard to practice "intensity" vs. this kind of opposition.
They will not challenge you once you've taken control of that xelnaga watch tower. They will not react to your play or your army movement but instead do the same build and same attacks that they always do and did. So how can you practice intensive play when you already have control of the xelnaga tower, and already have map control without the oppnent challening you? So how can you practice army movement when your opponent is too stupid to notice, and when it is smarter or more effective for you to just wait for them to kill themselves by doing a nonsensical attack on you?
You could practice these things with stephano, nerchio and ret maybe. The rest would not be intensive enough for you to gain speed from.
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EPT
