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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
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On February 14 2012 10:13 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:11 Oreo7 wrote:On February 14 2012 10:10 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! explain to me in slow clear sentences how you think that oversaturating the scene is helping it grow. and if you want for bonus explain how you think that blowing all their money flying players out for free that...last year were going anyway helps the scene grow. Koreans dont have money to fly out, more views for flying them out. Makes economic sense for MLG. More koreans = more views. with that logic, how were the koreans here last year then? and why are they only letting a maximum of 8 (16?) attend then?
Four of them had their flights paid for by MLG, the rest came from rich teams (mostly Slayers). A minority came from any of the poor teams.
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MLG still seems a bit amateur to not know their audience... If this is a ploy to increase barcraft attendance then I'd say good move by them, but if they're expecting consumers to shell out the money, the poll on the first page tells the tale.
Look:According to the poll, there are 114 "yes" responses. this would be 114*20=$2280
If even HALF of the people who responded "no", or 336(of the 673 "nos") would pay $5; or a 75% reduction, they would make (114*5)+(336*5)=$2250. That's only a 30 dollar difference and I would venture to guess in practice, they would pull in far more viewers with $5. Sounds like basic supply and demand to me
They should hire someone with an economics background; it simply doesn't make sense to charge such a high price with FREE substitutes around. It's not like assembly is so inferior. I understand MLG needs to support themselves and paying for everything for the players going is a huge step in legitimizing sc2 as a sport, but damn, they really missed the target on this one.
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On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money!
That's a poor excuse. Should I give them some pity money or what? And MLG's first purpose is to make money for themselves not some benevelant motive. If they spend too much money so they have to over pay the customers, they are screwing up. If they can make it work great, but please trying to insinuate they are doing this for the good of the players.
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On February 14 2012 10:14 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 09:59 Odal wrote:On February 14 2012 09:54 disciple wrote:
I really dislike how Sundance talks about growing esports. Like how ? By targeting an audience to sustain your business model ? This will damn nearly kill the european viewership imo. Which if you think in the lines of being real esports fan won't be a problem, no matter where you live. But in this chaotic time of various organizations throwing in investor money to establish themselves as the biggest league, I hate the "WE ARE DOING THIS FOR ESPORTS" propaganda thing to be thrown around, when the goal of these event organizers like MLG, IPL is to raise the bar high enough to kill the others while being able to sustain their model financially. So you need 100 000$ to fly your players and be able to offer high production value. I don't remember TSL3 needing that sort of funds and it was easily the most thrilling and memorable esports fan experience in my life. TSL3 is an entirely different thing, and you know that too. MLG is a league with one of the main selling points being live events. So you think renting casinos in Vegas as venues is completely appropriate for esports live event ? I'm a massive esports fan like everyone else here, but I don't want to feel guilty for not supporting inadequate business race which is driven by the twisted perspective that throwing investor money in production value is what esports needs. We simply don't need all this as fans. As I said I would have that much more fun from great story lines and drama in an online tournament casted from replays.
By reading your posts I can see the pattern
made by TL = GREAT
not made by TL (especially MLG) = BAD
I hope you are aware of that
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On February 14 2012 10:16 phiinix wrote:
MLG still seems a bit amateur to not know their audience... If this is a ploy to increase barcraft attendance then I'd say good move by them, but if they're expecting consumers to shell out the money, the poll on the first page tells the tale.
Look:According to the poll, there are 114 "yes" responses. this would be 114*20=$2280
If even HALF of the people who responded "no", or 336(of the 673 "nos") would pay $5; or a 75% reduction, they would make (114*5)+(336*5)=$2250. That's only a 30 dollar difference and I would venture to guess in practice, they would pull in far more viewers with $5. Sounds like basic supply and demand to me
They should hire someone with an economics background; it simply doesn't make sense to charge such a high price with FREE substitutes around. It's not like assembly is so inferior. I understand MLG needs to support themselves and paying for everything for the players going is a huge step in legitimizing sc2 as a sport, but damn, they really missed the target on this one.
This is also a good point.
Because as someone who is not even thinking about paying 20, I'd probably pay 5. It's just a better price point for the amount of content we're getting.
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On February 14 2012 10:14 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:08 Shiori wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! they're trying to grow their brand, not the scene. GSL is a better tournament and costs less. Why would you buy a 20$ ticket for MLG? GSL is not a better tournament for the entire scene though, as in the players. Its in Korea, so the majority of players don't have access to it, and the ones who do limit their access to other tournaments. Its month+ long so players have to turn down tournaments just to do GSL. Of course MLG is trying to grow their brand, but they are also supporting players by holding more tournaments. Its a mutually exclusive relationship.
it's a better tournament for what you get, as a viewer. what am i buying? food stamps? no, i'm buying a viewing experience. if MLG wants charity, they can go back to their VC firm.
stop pretending MLG is some heroic hope for the korean scene.
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On February 14 2012 10:16 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! That's a poor excuse. Should I give them some pity money or what? And MLG's first purpose is to make money for themselves not some benevelant motive. If they spend too much money so they have to over pay the customers, they are screwing up. If they can make it work great, but please trying to insinuate they are doing this for the good of the players.
Except what is good for MLG is good for players.
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9071 Posts
On February 14 2012 10:16 zolii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:14 disciple wrote:On February 14 2012 09:59 Odal wrote:On February 14 2012 09:54 disciple wrote:
I really dislike how Sundance talks about growing esports. Like how ? By targeting an audience to sustain your business model ? This will damn nearly kill the european viewership imo. Which if you think in the lines of being real esports fan won't be a problem, no matter where you live. But in this chaotic time of various organizations throwing in investor money to establish themselves as the biggest league, I hate the "WE ARE DOING THIS FOR ESPORTS" propaganda thing to be thrown around, when the goal of these event organizers like MLG, IPL is to raise the bar high enough to kill the others while being able to sustain their model financially. So you need 100 000$ to fly your players and be able to offer high production value. I don't remember TSL3 needing that sort of funds and it was easily the most thrilling and memorable esports fan experience in my life. TSL3 is an entirely different thing, and you know that too. MLG is a league with one of the main selling points being live events. So you think renting casinos in Vegas as venues is completely appropriate for esports live event ? I'm a massive esports fan like everyone else here, but I don't want to feel guilty for not supporting inadequate business race which is driven by the twisted perspective that throwing investor money in production value is what esports needs. We simply don't need all this as fans. As I said I would have that much more fun from great story lines and drama in an online tournament casted from replays. By reading your posts I can see the pattern made by TL = GREAT not made by TL (especially MLG) = BAD I hope you are aware of that
Never said what MLG is doing is bad in terms of quality. Unnecessary - yes.
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Won't bother to read the whole thread but: Can we get a refund for our gold membership then? I paid to see all MLG events in HD and now I have to pay an extra 20 bucks. What is this shit?
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I don't mind paying for some as long stays like most sporting events specialty fights PPV thats a smashing idea also causes people to go for barcrafts if the PPV is running they can spend the 20 or however much it cost getting shitfaced
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On February 14 2012 10:18 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:16 nam nam wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! That's a poor excuse. Should I give them some pity money or what? And MLG's first purpose is to make money for themselves not some benevelant motive. If they spend too much money so they have to over pay the customers, they are screwing up. If they can make it work great, but please trying to insinuate they are doing this for the good of the players. Except what is good for MLG is good for players.
so since sundance is spouting platitudes, you thought you'd start?
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It's funny because I had absolutely NO intention on catching ANY of Assembly. Was going to watch MLG all weekend... I'm sure I'm not alone on this. Just shows how putting a pricetag (especially such an expensive one for such little content) on something can really backfire.
I have no problem paying for content (in esports), as long as the content is of great quality and the quantity is also reasonable. I'd easily throw GSL $30, $40, and even $50 a season because there content is so good.
Also, another thing needs to be addressed: as cool as Homestory Cup is... no live audience kind of sucks. I fucking LOVE when people go crazy, cheering, clapping, whistling, chanting, and stomping their feet and showing support to the players. You won't get that with Arenas... And that is the ultimate deal breaker for me. No live audience, definitely no money from me.
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Poll: What is the maximum amount of money you would pay?10 Dollars (39) 34% Would not pay not matter the bost (34) 30% 5 Dollars (28) 25% 20 Dollars (10) 9% 15 Dollars (3) 3% 114 total votes Your vote: What is the maximum amount of money you would pay? (Vote): 20 Dollars
(Vote): 15 Dollars
(Vote): 10 Dollars
(Vote): 5 Dollars
(Vote): Would not pay not matter the bost
Not sure if this poll was already created but have not seen it thus far.
Edit: Dear god i butchered the " would not pay no matter the cost"
Damn!
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On February 14 2012 10:16 phiinix wrote:
MLG still seems a bit amateur to not know their audience... If this is a ploy to increase barcraft attendance then I'd say good move by them, but if they're expecting consumers to shell out the money, the poll on the first page tells the tale.
Look:According to the poll, there are 114 "yes" responses. this would be 114*20=$2280
If even HALF of the people who responded "no", or 336(of the 673 "nos") would pay $5; or a 75% reduction, they would make (114*5)+(336*5)=$2250. That's only a 30 dollar difference and I would venture to guess in practice, they would pull in far more viewers with $5. Sounds like basic supply and demand to me
They should hire someone with an economics background; it simply doesn't make sense to charge such a high price with FREE substitutes around. It's not like assembly is so inferior. I understand MLG needs to support themselves and paying for everything for the players going is a huge step in legitimizing sc2 as a sport, but damn, they really missed the target on this one.
Exactly.
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On February 14 2012 10:17 SimDawg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:16 phiinix wrote:
MLG still seems a bit amateur to not know their audience... If this is a ploy to increase barcraft attendance then I'd say good move by them, but if they're expecting consumers to shell out the money, the poll on the first page tells the tale.
Look:According to the poll, there are 114 "yes" responses. this would be 114*20=$2280
If even HALF of the people who responded "no", or 336(of the 673 "nos") would pay $5; or a 75% reduction, they would make (114*5)+(336*5)=$2250. That's only a 30 dollar difference and I would venture to guess in practice, they would pull in far more viewers with $5. Sounds like basic supply and demand to me
They should hire someone with an economics background; it simply doesn't make sense to charge such a high price with FREE substitutes around. It's not like assembly is so inferior. I understand MLG needs to support themselves and paying for everything for the players going is a huge step in legitimizing sc2 as a sport, but damn, they really missed the target on this one. This is also a good point.
Phew, thank god they were making their decision based on a TL poll.
No, they' didn't. That's dumb, they made their decisions based on the # of people who bought gold or silver for last years MLG, it's a ball-park figure, but they're not going into this looking to gamble away money.
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On February 14 2012 10:18 Champloo wrote:
Won't bother to read the whole thread but: Can we get a refund for our gold membership then? I paid to see all MLG events in HD and now I have to pay an extra 20 bucks. What is this shit?
Send them an e-mail with your justification. I guess since you haven't used it you're entitled to a refund.
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On February 14 2012 10:14 Gentso wrote:
No, sorry. I am not paying to watch Starcraft 2.
I'm afraid this is my sentiment exactly.
Best of luck to MLG, though. It will be interesting to see how all this turns out.
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I think that the huge backlash seen in this thread isn't really warranted. People need to understand that esports is first and foremost a business. So many people think that our entire industry should be free, but they don't seem to realize the expense involved in organizing and maintaining these events.
Besides that, MLG has given us some of the most compelling narratives in the history of Starcraft 2, and each event has had its own unique storyline, whether it be a clash of rivals, the advent of a new star, or the dominance of an established champion. Some of my fondest Starcraft 2 memories are from the epic MLG weekends spent watching at home, with friends, and at barcrafts.
I think the very least I can do is pay for the event, and I'm disappointed to see that most people don't feel the same way.
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On February 14 2012 10:19 Saig0n wrote:Poll: What is the maximum amount of money you would pay?10 Dollars (39) 34% Would not pay not matter the bost (34) 30% 5 Dollars (28) 25% 20 Dollars (10) 9% 15 Dollars (3) 3% 114 total votes Your vote: What is the maximum amount of money you would pay? (Vote): 20 Dollars
(Vote): 15 Dollars
(Vote): 10 Dollars
(Vote): 5 Dollars
(Vote): Would not pay not matter the bost
Not sure if this poll was already created but have not seen it thus far.
I would pay the amount i payed for HSC 5 Euros aka $6
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Even though I feel fucked over as a Gold member (and a member of MLG for 7 years), I will still purchase the PPV depending on the casters. I don't think they have been announced, and I hope they end up being good.
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EPT
