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On February 14 2012 10:18 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:16 nam nam wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! That's a poor excuse. Should I give them some pity money or what? And MLG's first purpose is to make money for themselves not some benevelant motive. If they spend too much money so they have to over pay the customers, they are screwing up. If they can make it work great, but please trying to insinuate they are doing this for the good of the players. Except what is good for MLG is good for players.
Your argument would basically mean we should shell out money for anything on the basis of "supporting eSports". MLG isn't a fucking charity, they're putting out a product and if we go by the method of supporting them to support eSports then their quality becomes irrelevant. The point that multiple people have made, and what is important to understand is that there are half a dozen other tournaments with comparable prize pools that are absolutely free to watch.
Yours is a shitty argument, asking us to pay money for one product out of a number of other products that don't put up a price, simply to "support eSports" or "support the players". It's supply and demand, an argument based on supporting eSports is weak as hell. Why should one tournament get extra money when various other tournaments are providing comparable content without using PPV?
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It astonishes me to no end just how entitled the internet makes people feel. Fucking vultures always circle the free meal. It's 20 bucks for a weekend of entertainment from a source that you KNOW provides quality! What a bunch of ungrateful twats.
"Everything online should always be free! Let us have everything for nothing! ME ME ME ME ME! I only support eSports when it's spoon-fed to me at no cost!"
E-sports will never grow with this community of free-loaders. Not even willing to pay $1 dollar an hour... lol
User was warned for this post
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Yea, if it was PPV and $5, I would've bought for sure. But $20? You're kidding me right?
E-sports will never grow with this community of free-loaders. Not even willing to pay $1 dollar an hour... lol
It's not $1 per hour, because most people aren't going to watch a straight 7 hr/day for Fri, Sat and Sunday. I might catch like 2h per day or just leave it streaming in the background while doing something else.
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If this were a big event with the full crowd and everything, it would maybe be worth $20. This is just a little thing filmed in some studio though, how is it worth money?
I find this very upsetting 
EDIT: This was a knee-jerk response, maybe its not so terrible. I was looking at their demo for the multi-viewer which is pretty cool. IF the production is really really really good it might be worth it. I'l give it a shot.
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MLG, you have provided me with some pretty awesome events in the past and I want to see more. I will give you $20 because I know you need money to keep going. However, I must request that you make your website less of a train wreck in the near future. The thing is almost a war crime.
Plansix
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On February 14 2012 10:25 yarkO wrote:
It astonishes me to no end just how entitled the internet makes people feel. Fucking vultures always circle the free meal. It's 20 bucks for a weekend of entertainment from a source that you KNOW provides quality! What a bunch of ungrateful twats.
"Everything online should always be free! Let us have everything for nothing! ME ME ME ME ME! I only support eSports when it's spoon-fed to me at no cost!"
E-sports will never grow with this community of free-loaders. Not even willing to pay $1 dollar an hour... lol
I pay $24 a month for GSL, and get about 10x the content
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On February 14 2012 10:23 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:21 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:18 Shiori wrote:On February 14 2012 10:14 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:08 Shiori wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! they're trying to grow their brand, not the scene. GSL is a better tournament and costs less. Why would you buy a 20$ ticket for MLG? GSL is not a better tournament for the entire scene though, as in the players. Its in Korea, so the majority of players don't have access to it, and the ones who do limit their access to other tournaments. Its month+ long so players have to turn down tournaments just to do GSL. Of course MLG is trying to grow their brand, but they are also supporting players by holding more tournaments. Its a mutually exclusive relationship. it's a better tournament for what you get, as a viewer. what am i buying? food stamps? no, i'm buying a viewing experience. if MLG wants charity, they can go back to their VC firm. stop pretending MLG is some heroic hope for the korean scene. wtf? heroic hope for the korean scene? Thats not what I'm saying at all. Things need to change in order for this scene to continue to grow. MLG is changing things in order for that to happen. Will MLG make more money off of it if it works? Absolutely. It then trickles down to the players which is what we need right now. GSL is a cheaper tournament as a viewer, but in the long run isn't better for the scene. it's a better tournament for the viewer, not just a cheaper one. it's better bang for your buck. and so far, it seems to be stimulating interest from viewers. MLG resonated with the west because it was free and people could attend it/watch it. it's not because MLG did anything special that DH/IPL/whatever aren't doing. never thought i'd encounter trickle down economics in esports, but it's just as stupid here as it is with corporate tax breaks.
except its not all about the viewer. what is the viewer supposed to watch when tournaments stop because they can't afford to put on events? Why would the viewer watch guys who aren't able to be full time pro's because the scene can't support them?
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On February 14 2012 10:25 yarkO wrote:
It astonishes me to no end just how entitled the internet makes people feel. Fucking vultures always circle the free meal. It's 20 bucks for a weekend of entertainment from a source that you KNOW provides quality! What a bunch of ungrateful twats.
"Everything online should always be free! Let us have everything for nothing! ME ME ME ME ME! I only support eSports when it's spoon-fed to me at no cost!"
E-sports will never grow with this community of free-loaders. Not even willing to pay $1 dollar an hour... lol
E-sports will never grow! even if GSL gives better deals! Economy will never grow if I buy cheaper stuff! Never EVER!
Man... e-sports support argument is so badly developed and misunderstood, it's like when you kill a thousand people "FOR THE GREATER GOOOOOD!~~"
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Wait, I can't follow the logic here.
1) MLG decides to put on a show for PPV.
2) People don't want to pay.
3) Said people RAGE, and then call for a boycott?
How is this any different than the extra stuff GSL shows on the side for 5/10 bucks a deal? This is $20 for an entire weekend of cool stuff. I don't have the money to pay it, but I really don't get the hypocrisy that GSL can do it, but "Holy fuck, MLG did what GSL does? Kill it with fire!"
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On February 14 2012 10:27 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:23 Shiori wrote:On February 14 2012 10:21 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:18 Shiori wrote:On February 14 2012 10:14 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:08 Shiori wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! they're trying to grow their brand, not the scene. GSL is a better tournament and costs less. Why would you buy a 20$ ticket for MLG? GSL is not a better tournament for the entire scene though, as in the players. Its in Korea, so the majority of players don't have access to it, and the ones who do limit their access to other tournaments. Its month+ long so players have to turn down tournaments just to do GSL. Of course MLG is trying to grow their brand, but they are also supporting players by holding more tournaments. Its a mutually exclusive relationship. it's a better tournament for what you get, as a viewer. what am i buying? food stamps? no, i'm buying a viewing experience. if MLG wants charity, they can go back to their VC firm. stop pretending MLG is some heroic hope for the korean scene. wtf? heroic hope for the korean scene? Thats not what I'm saying at all. Things need to change in order for this scene to continue to grow. MLG is changing things in order for that to happen. Will MLG make more money off of it if it works? Absolutely. It then trickles down to the players which is what we need right now. GSL is a cheaper tournament as a viewer, but in the long run isn't better for the scene. it's a better tournament for the viewer, not just a cheaper one. it's better bang for your buck. and so far, it seems to be stimulating interest from viewers. MLG resonated with the west because it was free and people could attend it/watch it. it's not because MLG did anything special that DH/IPL/whatever aren't doing. never thought i'd encounter trickle down economics in esports, but it's just as stupid here as it is with corporate tax breaks. except its not all about the viewer. what is the viewer supposed to watch when tournaments stop because they can't afford to put on events? Why would the viewer watch guys who aren't able to be full time pro's because the scene can't support them?
it's about the viewer when the viewer is paying for it. again, this isn't a charity. if esports isn't sustainable under traditional econ, then it isn't. i think PPV can work, but not like this.
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On February 14 2012 09:54 disciple wrote:
I really dislike how Sundance talks about growing esports. Like how ? By targeting an audience to sustain your business model ? This will damn nearly kill the european viewership imo. Which if you think in the lines of being real esports fan won't be a problem, no matter where you live. But in this chaotic time of various organizations throwing in investor money to establish themselves as the biggest league, I hate the "WE ARE DOING THIS FOR ESPORTS" propaganda thing to be thrown around, when the goal of these event organizers like MLG, IPL is to raise the bar high enough to kill the others while being able to sustain their model financially. So you need 100 000$ to fly your players and be able to offer high production value. I don't remember TSL3 needing that sort of funds and it was easily the most thrilling and memorable esports fan experience in my life.
wow, well said. It's clear that a majority of money comes from sponsorships, this is true and has pretty much always been true for the most part for all sports-- the focus needs to be on growing the audience in my opinion (for what my opinion is worth, which is definitely less than 20$). Gold/Silver membership makes sense, but it seems to me that this PPV is a trial balloon kind of pilot test for a larger PPV model-- replicating a PPV model over all MLG content will just absolutely kill their viewer numbers, which will kill their sponsorship dollars, which kind of doesn't make sene.
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I thought the majority of the sc2 viewership were old enought to get a job. Alot of people here are acting like $20 is a big deal, maybe it is for some I don't know. I'm a university student like many of you and have enough money to subscribe to the GSL and plan on purchasing the winter arena pass. As many of you have allready mentioned Asus ROG is going on at the same weekend and will be tuning in, but I find the talent coming to MLG alot more appealing. I still think MLG will be fine as the live tournaments will still be free to watch.
As a side note, I agree with the people who said it might have been a better idea to start of with $10 instead of $20. In the end it is what it is.
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On February 14 2012 10:25 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:18 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:16 nam nam wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! That's a poor excuse. Should I give them some pity money or what? And MLG's first purpose is to make money for themselves not some benevelant motive. If they spend too much money so they have to over pay the customers, they are screwing up. If they can make it work great, but please trying to insinuate they are doing this for the good of the players. Except what is good for MLG is good for players. Your argument would basically mean we should shell out money for anything on the basis of "supporting eSports". MLG isn't a fucking charity, they're putting out a product and if we go by the method of supporting them to support eSports then their quality becomes irrelevant. The point that multiple people have made, and what is important to understand is that there are half a dozen other tournaments with comparable prize pools that are absolutely free to watch. Yours is a shitty argument, asking us to pay money for one product out of a number of other products that don't put up a price, simply to "support eSports" or "support the players". It's supply and demand, an argument based on supporting eSports is weak as hell. Why should one tournament get extra money when various other tournaments are providing comparable content without using PPV?
because it isn't sustainable?
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On February 14 2012 10:25 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:18 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:16 nam nam wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! That's a poor excuse. Should I give them some pity money or what? And MLG's first purpose is to make money for themselves not some benevelant motive. If they spend too much money so they have to over pay the customers, they are screwing up. If they can make it work great, but please trying to insinuate they are doing this for the good of the players. Except what is good for MLG is good for players. Your argument would basically mean we should shell out money for anything on the basis of "supporting eSports". MLG isn't a fucking charity, they're putting out a product and if we go by the method of supporting them to support eSports then their quality becomes irrelevant. The point that multiple people have made, and what is important to understand is that there are half a dozen other tournaments with comparable prize pools that are absolutely free to watch. Yours is a shitty argument, asking us to pay money for one product out of a number of other products that don't put up a price, simply to "support eSports" or "support the players". It's supply and demand, an argument based on supporting eSports is weak as hell. Why should one tournament get extra money when various other tournaments are providing comparable content without using PPV?
I bet you think it's ok to open shop in a new town and undercut all the locals too, right?
It's like people have no understanding of BUSINESS and how it really works when you want to go from small show to the big time.
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On February 14 2012 10:26 Plansix wrote:
MLG, you have provided me with some pretty awesome events in the past and I want to see more. I will give you $20 because I know you need money to keep going. However, I must request that you make your website less of a train wreck in the near future. The thing is almost a war crime.
Plansix
How so? They need this money for extravagent, yet unneccessary production costs as far as I can see. I really don't see the need for flying all the players to New York, paying for everything, then having 27 streams of them for 3 days.
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On February 14 2012 10:25 yarkO wrote:
It astonishes me to no end just how entitled the internet makes people feel. Fucking vultures always circle the free meal. It's 20 bucks for a weekend of entertainment from a source that you KNOW provides quality! What a bunch of ungrateful twats.
"Everything online should always be free! Let us have everything for nothing! ME ME ME ME ME! I only support eSports when it's spoon-fed to me at no cost!"
E-sports will never grow with this community of free-loaders. Not even willing to pay $1 dollar an hour... lol
There is a league that does this model successfully, It's called the GSL. If you head over to their website you can see the views on their vods. The numbers for Code S are doing pretty damn well. Plenty of people are willing to pay for a good product if the value is worth the money, in this case the majority of the community feels the product is not worth the cost. If you think it is then cool but don't raise a shitstorm thinking no one here pays for sc2.
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ASUS guys must be smiling right now... They will sure to get thousands of viewers that originally would have watched MLG.
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The huge difference is that GSL gives a way better package for less money, plus I'm not a diehard fan enough to pay for this kind of "meh" tourneys... It costed me a lot of time thinking wether or not pay GSL, don't have enough money to "burn" for "e-sports support"
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i personally really enjoy the content that MLG provides. If they are moving in this direction I will support them. A dollar an hour is a damn good price for a weekend tournament with my favourite players TBH. Better be damn good material overall :O!!
If not you can watch the free VODs a week later after you've been spoiled 
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United States22883 Posts
On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free. No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously.
IGN loses a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot of money, and simply has corporate backing for it. Who knows how long they'll keep it up.
On February 14 2012 10:28 Mauldo wrote:
Wait, I can't follow the logic here.
1) MLG decides to put on a show for PPV.
2) People don't want to pay.
3) Said people RAGE, and then call for a boycott?
How is this any different than the extra stuff GSL shows on the side for 5/10 bucks a deal? This is $20 for an entire weekend of cool stuff. I don't have the money to pay it, but I really don't get the hypocrisy that GSL can do it, but "Holy fuck, MLG did what GSL does? Kill it with fire!" Because MLG doesn't lose your personal identity in the process.
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EPT
