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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 14 2012 10:23 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:18 disciple wrote:On February 14 2012 10:16 zolii wrote:On February 14 2012 10:14 disciple wrote:On February 14 2012 09:59 Odal wrote:On February 14 2012 09:54 disciple wrote:
I really dislike how Sundance talks about growing esports. Like how ? By targeting an audience to sustain your business model ? This will damn nearly kill the european viewership imo. Which if you think in the lines of being real esports fan won't be a problem, no matter where you live. But in this chaotic time of various organizations throwing in investor money to establish themselves as the biggest league, I hate the "WE ARE DOING THIS FOR ESPORTS" propaganda thing to be thrown around, when the goal of these event organizers like MLG, IPL is to raise the bar high enough to kill the others while being able to sustain their model financially. So you need 100 000$ to fly your players and be able to offer high production value. I don't remember TSL3 needing that sort of funds and it was easily the most thrilling and memorable esports fan experience in my life. TSL3 is an entirely different thing, and you know that too. MLG is a league with one of the main selling points being live events. So you think renting casinos in Vegas as venues is completely appropriate for esports live event ? I'm a massive esports fan like everyone else here, but I don't want to feel guilty for not supporting inadequate business race which is driven by the twisted perspective that throwing investor money in production value is what esports needs. We simply don't need all this as fans. As I said I would have that much more fun from great story lines and drama in an online tournament casted from replays. By reading your posts I can see the pattern made by TL = GREAT not made by TL (especially MLG) = BAD I hope you are aware of that Never said what MLG is doing is bad. Unnecessary - yes. Well, I can't agree at all. Replay-tournaments are a dime a dozen, while the live tournaments, where the competitors are playing while I'm watching (and in the best cases are sharing the stage), creates a whole other level of excitement and energy. Live stage > live > replay.
Its all in the eye of each specific viewer, sure some live events have great energy. Typically you would want to be there in person to live the hype. You missed the point they made by a huge mark. Sure renting part of a casino to host a tournament is great, but the money that went into that could have taken care of the players better bigger prize pool etc. For example the money MLG is spending on flying people out could have been added to the prize pool to increase the want for the Koreans to take care of their own travel expense. However since they opted to do this, it puts the burden on the audience to spend cash to make this a worth wild experience.
Don't let MLG guilt you into believing you are hurting e-sports by not throwing money at their company.
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On February 14 2012 10:25 yarkO wrote:
It astonishes me to no end just how entitled the internet makes people feel. Fucking vultures always circle the free meal. It's 20 bucks for a weekend of entertainment from a source that you KNOW provides quality! What a bunch of ungrateful twats.
"Everything online should always be free! Let us have everything for nothing! ME ME ME ME ME! I only support eSports when it's spoon-fed to me at no cost!"
E-sports will never grow with this community of free-loaders. Not even willing to pay $1 dollar an hour... lol
you come off as an ass. you realize alot of people (a la myself included) cannot shell out 20 bucks for this right? perhaps you can get off your high horse?
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On February 14 2012 10:25 yarkO wrote:
It astonishes me to no end just how entitled the internet makes people feel. Fucking vultures always circle the free meal. It's 20 bucks for a weekend of entertainment from a source that you KNOW provides quality! What a bunch of ungrateful twats.
"Everything online should always be free! Let us have everything for nothing! ME ME ME ME ME! I only support eSports when it's spoon-fed to me at no cost!"
E-sports will never grow with this community of free-loaders. Not even willing to pay $1 dollar an hour... lol
I also don't like the entitled attiture of many on the internet, but buying this event is simply not a good choice. $20 for a 3-day event is simply not practical when compared to $15 for a whole 2 months of code S+code A. If MLG were to bring down the price point as many have recommended I'm sure they would fare better. Also, you could try to shit on the community a little less. It's really not a horrible thing (although it can be at times, it is good at others).
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I don't find this change unreasonable in any way. I'm just not going to watch it. Isn't Assembly Winter happening on the same weekend, with stephano, hero, lucky, puma, JYP, real, select and a ton of other amazing players. Capitalism at work.
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I do think this is a bit overpriced, but I'm definitely gonna be paying since I luckily have the extra cash to be spending. And besides, this at least commits my weekend for 20 bucks rather than spending way more going out / doing whatever else.
Realistically though, 10 bucks seems way more reasonable. Guess we'll just have to see if they can blow us away with production and justify their costs.
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dammit
They got me.
If DRG's playin'...then I'm payin'
The life of a fan is hard
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On February 14 2012 10:28 Mauldo wrote:
Wait, I can't follow the logic here.
1) MLG decides to put on a show for PPV.
2) People don't want to pay.
3) Said people RAGE, and then call for a boycott?
How is this any different than the extra stuff GSL shows on the side for 5/10 bucks a deal? This is $20 for an entire weekend of cool stuff. I don't have the money to pay it, but I really don't get the hypocrisy that GSL can do it, but "Holy fuck, MLG did what GSL does? Kill it with fire!"
Doesnt GSL offer a free, low quality feed? Is MLG going to do that?
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On February 14 2012 10:29 yarkO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:25 Mordiford wrote:On February 14 2012 10:18 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:16 nam nam wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! That's a poor excuse. Should I give them some pity money or what? And MLG's first purpose is to make money for themselves not some benevelant motive. If they spend too much money so they have to over pay the customers, they are screwing up. If they can make it work great, but please trying to insinuate they are doing this for the good of the players. Except what is good for MLG is good for players. Your argument would basically mean we should shell out money for anything on the basis of "supporting eSports". MLG isn't a fucking charity, they're putting out a product and if we go by the method of supporting them to support eSports then their quality becomes irrelevant. The point that multiple people have made, and what is important to understand is that there are half a dozen other tournaments with comparable prize pools that are absolutely free to watch. Yours is a shitty argument, asking us to pay money for one product out of a number of other products that don't put up a price, simply to "support eSports" or "support the players". It's supply and demand, an argument based on supporting eSports is weak as hell. Why should one tournament get extra money when various other tournaments are providing comparable content without using PPV? I bet you think it's ok to open shop in a new town and undercut all the locals too, right? It's like people have no understanding of BUSINESS and how it really works when you want to go from small show to the big time.
What the fuck does that have to do with what I said? Are all the other tournaments that expressed interest in Starcraft 2 before MLG undercutting "the locals" by providing free content? What a rubbish argument.
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On February 14 2012 10:30 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:28 Mauldo wrote:
Wait, I can't follow the logic here.
1) MLG decides to put on a show for PPV.
2) People don't want to pay.
3) Said people RAGE, and then call for a boycott?
How is this any different than the extra stuff GSL shows on the side for 5/10 bucks a deal? This is $20 for an entire weekend of cool stuff. I don't have the money to pay it, but I really don't get the hypocrisy that GSL can do it, but "Holy fuck, MLG did what GSL does? Kill it with fire!" Doesnt GSL offer a free, low quality feed? Is MLG going to do that?
AoL doesn't, iirc.
No low quality feed from MLG this time around.
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Canada39254 Posts
On February 14 2012 10:28 Mauldo wrote:
Wait, I can't follow the logic here.
1) MLG decides to put on a show for PPV.
2) People don't want to pay.
3) Said people RAGE, and then call for a boycott?
How is this any different than the extra stuff GSL shows on the side for 5/10 bucks a deal? This is $20 for an entire weekend of cool stuff. I don't have the money to pay it, but I really don't get the hypocrisy that GSL can do it, but "Holy fuck, MLG did what GSL does? Kill it with fire!"
No one is calling for a boycott, at least not the majority. Relax.
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20 dollars? And gold members don't get access either?
...
I had thought this was going to be a good year of MLG, hopefully we can watch the actual championship without paying. I had a membership last year for HQ, but will not be renewing it now. I won't be boycotting, one thing won't change my high opinion of them too much, but hopefully they make better decisions later.
I heard assembly is going to be interesting anyway. 
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On February 14 2012 10:28 Mauldo wrote:
Wait, I can't follow the logic here.
1) MLG decides to put on a show for PPV.
2) People don't want to pay.
3) Said people RAGE, and then call for a boycott?
How is this any different than the extra stuff GSL shows on the side for 5/10 bucks a deal? This is $20 for an entire weekend of cool stuff. I don't have the money to pay it, but I really don't get the hypocrisy that GSL can do it, but "Holy fuck, MLG did what GSL does? Kill it with fire!"
GSL gives 10x the content per dollar. It is also significantly higher quality content in every way.
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Mostly I'm just sad that MLG is in a place where they feel this is necessary. They must not be doing as well as it seemed from the giant crowds. I guess cutting tons of staff a couple months ago wasn't just about 'new directions'.
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On February 14 2012 10:28 Mauldo wrote:
Wait, I can't follow the logic here.
1) MLG decides to put on a show for PPV.
2) People don't want to pay.
3) Said people RAGE, and then call for a boycott?
How is this any different than the extra stuff GSL shows on the side for 5/10 bucks a deal? This is $20 for an entire weekend of cool stuff. I don't have the money to pay it, but I really don't get the hypocrisy that GSL can do it, but "Holy fuck, MLG did what GSL does? Kill it with fire!"
The difference is we've know about this tournement a month, and only NOW do we learn it costs $20.
We have the right to be upset the MLG has suddenly sprung a new business model on SC2. MLG has the right to do it, but we have the right to be pissed about it and boycott them.
Esports will be fine, MLG maybe has some questionable management and needs to go away rather than continuing to experiment with the SC2 audience.
SC2 had done more for MLG than MLG has done for SC2.
You don't owe them, more than they owe you.
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holy crap that's an expensive weekend tournament. No way am I paying that. That price isn't even competitive with other sc2 tournaments, not to mention other forms of entertainment in general.
If this is esports "growth," count me out.
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United States22883 Posts
On February 14 2012 10:31 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:29 yarkO wrote:On February 14 2012 10:25 Mordiford wrote:On February 14 2012 10:18 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:16 nam nam wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! That's a poor excuse. Should I give them some pity money or what? And MLG's first purpose is to make money for themselves not some benevelant motive. If they spend too much money so they have to over pay the customers, they are screwing up. If they can make it work great, but please trying to insinuate they are doing this for the good of the players. Except what is good for MLG is good for players. Your argument would basically mean we should shell out money for anything on the basis of "supporting eSports". MLG isn't a fucking charity, they're putting out a product and if we go by the method of supporting them to support eSports then their quality becomes irrelevant. The point that multiple people have made, and what is important to understand is that there are half a dozen other tournaments with comparable prize pools that are absolutely free to watch. Yours is a shitty argument, asking us to pay money for one product out of a number of other products that don't put up a price, simply to "support eSports" or "support the players". It's supply and demand, an argument based on supporting eSports is weak as hell. Why should one tournament get extra money when various other tournaments are providing comparable content without using PPV? I bet you think it's ok to open shop in a new town and undercut all the locals too, right? It's like people have no understanding of BUSINESS and how it really works when you want to go from small show to the big time. What the fuck does that have to do with what I said? Are all the other tournaments that expressed interest in Starcraft 2 before MLG undercutting "the locals" by providing free content? What a rubbish argument. Yes, they are. MLG is just the first in declaring that their current business model doesn't work, so they're trying something radically different because they'll fail with the status quo anyways. MLG is just ahead of the curve, in this regard.
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quite simply, sundance overdroned.
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bottom line: don't the customer for your unsustainable business model.
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One question for the Naysayers in this thread:
Did MLG ever put profit before their audience?
Dallas 2010 was a disaster = everyone who bought the hd pass got a refund
same hd pass price = better quality and quantity of content
membership = less to watch individual event + increase in quality and quantity of content as above
Do you still believe this model that is presented now will come through ?
I'll wait and see how this develops, but even if this price stays - I will buy it and watch to VODs
MLG has my support.
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I think a subscription model or a season ticket thing would be much better than a PPV model. As a gold member, it would at least be nice to get a discount on this winter pass thing. x_x
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EPT
