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On February 14 2012 10:28 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:25 Mordiford wrote:On February 14 2012 10:18 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:16 nam nam wrote:On February 14 2012 10:07 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 14 2012 10:05 Angel_ wrote:On February 14 2012 09:57 WilDMousE wrote:
This guy, sundance, needs to learn to change this "We want to help e-sports, pay us" mentality... the whole "I Support E-sports" mindset is pretty much abused by now. The more I sit and think about it the more this looks like it to me. IPL gave more content and features in each tournament they've done than MLG did in a year and a half put together, at a better venue, with more features, more awesome streams, in a Casino for shit's sake, with multiple player panels, a stream for random interviews and people walking around seeing candid players and checking in on the player pool...and you never heard anything about "to help esports grow it's time to pay us"...and they didn't even have tournament internet capability most of the first entire day. what you got instead was one of the best run events we've had and a heartfelt letter/blog from a guy risking everything just to break even for something he loved. No one is forcing MLG to fly out all their players for free.
No one is forcing MLG to run so many tournaments a year. No one is forcing MLG to overlap tournaments with other free tournaments and then expect people to watch them. And yet MLG is standing on thier podium holding their banner that in order to support esports, you should pay extra to THEM, citing helping to grow...while still providing less than most other big tournaments, while eliminating some of the biggest things that attract people to them (crowds) in the process. - But maybe we should be glad. If the problem is that there's too much supply for the demand (tournaments basically every month, and overlapping)... it's one less piece of real competition for viewers if everyone just doesn't watch MLG. and then they'll either die or they'll step up their game seriously. yeah no one is forcing them. Fuck MLG for trying to grow the scene and give players more money! That's a poor excuse. Should I give them some pity money or what? And MLG's first purpose is to make money for themselves not some benevelant motive. If they spend too much money so they have to over pay the customers, they are screwing up. If they can make it work great, but please trying to insinuate they are doing this for the good of the players. Except what is good for MLG is good for players. Your argument would basically mean we should shell out money for anything on the basis of "supporting eSports". MLG isn't a fucking charity, they're putting out a product and if we go by the method of supporting them to support eSports then their quality becomes irrelevant. The point that multiple people have made, and what is important to understand is that there are half a dozen other tournaments with comparable prize pools that are absolutely free to watch. Yours is a shitty argument, asking us to pay money for one product out of a number of other products that don't put up a price, simply to "support eSports" or "support the players". It's supply and demand, an argument based on supporting eSports is weak as hell. Why should one tournament get extra money when various other tournaments are providing comparable content without using PPV? because it isn't sustainable?
You keep saying it isn't sustainable, hopping on this bandwagon with everyone else saying the current model isn't sustainable.
The current model is actually fine. It's just WAY too oversaturated. We have too many tournaments a year, plain and simple. We have too many tournaments and too many tournament organizations. When there is a tournament we get let viewers as a result because there's so many. A sc2 event isn't anything special to get excited about most of the time. Especially MLG when it's "all the time" and the quality is frankly below a lot of other events. If we had less of them viewer counts would go up and ad revenue like-wise would go up as well.
You could also cut costs elsewhere while increasing the quality of the things you have. you could sell more stuff.
The idea that the model doesn't work is a presumption and a silly one.
The idea that the model can't be tweaked and added to (especially for live events) without going and eliminating it is naive.
The idea that the alternative to the current model is to throw it out the window and go for something that alienates your fanbase and directly hurts it's ability to grow further is suicidal.
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9070 Posts
On February 14 2012 10:23 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:18 disciple wrote:On February 14 2012 10:16 zolii wrote:On February 14 2012 10:14 disciple wrote:On February 14 2012 09:59 Odal wrote:On February 14 2012 09:54 disciple wrote:
I really dislike how Sundance talks about growing esports. Like how ? By targeting an audience to sustain your business model ? This will damn nearly kill the european viewership imo. Which if you think in the lines of being real esports fan won't be a problem, no matter where you live. But in this chaotic time of various organizations throwing in investor money to establish themselves as the biggest league, I hate the "WE ARE DOING THIS FOR ESPORTS" propaganda thing to be thrown around, when the goal of these event organizers like MLG, IPL is to raise the bar high enough to kill the others while being able to sustain their model financially. So you need 100 000$ to fly your players and be able to offer high production value. I don't remember TSL3 needing that sort of funds and it was easily the most thrilling and memorable esports fan experience in my life. TSL3 is an entirely different thing, and you know that too. MLG is a league with one of the main selling points being live events. So you think renting casinos in Vegas as venues is completely appropriate for esports live event ? I'm a massive esports fan like everyone else here, but I don't want to feel guilty for not supporting inadequate business race which is driven by the twisted perspective that throwing investor money in production value is what esports needs. We simply don't need all this as fans. As I said I would have that much more fun from great story lines and drama in an online tournament casted from replays. By reading your posts I can see the pattern made by TL = GREAT not made by TL (especially MLG) = BAD I hope you are aware of that Never said what MLG is doing is bad. Unnecessary - yes. Well, I can't agree at all. Replay-tournaments are a dime a dozen, while the live tournaments, where the competitors are playing while I'm watching (and in the best cases are sharing the stage), creates a whole other level of excitement and energy. Live stage > live > replay.
Perhaps. If its for the audience I completely agree, but in the case with the Arena there wont be an audience. Seeing players' real life emotions is absolutely amazing, but imho the whole excitement comes from knowing whats at stake, the high quality of the games and the energy of the casters. Those can be experienced in an online tournament or replay cast as well. Not mentioning complicated accidents and difficult administrative situations can be handled better. That got a bit off-topic. I don't think high production quality live events are the only way to go, or that they will kill off or dominate all other forms of tournaments.
Imo tournament organizers should step back a bit, maybe stop renting venues for 200-300k or so. And as esports fans we should feel less obligated to sustain their business models which get market to us as "growing esports".
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On February 14 2012 10:37 Kyir wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:35 DyEnasTy wrote:I think people are so spoiled with everything being free for so long. But at the same time they are hypocrites because they want SC to be more legitimate, yet to make it that, it would require something from them. Money. So instead of buying worthless shit food at a convenience store, save that money and buy this. Actually I am really thinking of going to the Davis BarCraft for this.  should be fun! I agree. Who needs to eat when you can watch Starcraft for $20?
I've skipped meals to scrap up for a gsl premium season ticket. The problem is with esports is its primary audience is the money-tight college kid/high-schooler; you can't squeeze blood out of a stone.
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Why would you ever cut your own viewers off if you are in an unstable market? Esports needs millions and millions of additional viewers since it's worldwide. Not barely 100.000 you can milk. We need to grow! I would not pay, even if there was no assembly at the same time.
Free 360p or whatever + premium is just fine. I just don't understand why you would slow down you own market, imagine if every tournament would make this? viewer numbers would fall down rapidly. But maybe i am just dumb or not capitalistic enough.
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On February 14 2012 10:35 DyEnasTy wrote:I think people are so spoiled with everything being free for so long. But at the same time they are hypocrites because they want SC to be more legitimate, yet to make it that, it would require something from them. Money. So instead of buying worthless shit food at a convenience store, save that money and buy this. Actually I am really thinking of going to the Davis BarCraft for this. should be fun!
So, your thinking of not paying and going to a barcraft instead. While saying others should skip food to support MLG.
The irony is hilarious.
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$20 when there are so many freeee content out there...good luck!
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Prize money seems low if this is what they are charging the viewers. If they want 20$ per viewer they should atleast pay the players way more.
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On February 14 2012 10:27 Boblhead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:25 yarkO wrote:
It astonishes me to no end just how entitled the internet makes people feel. Fucking vultures always circle the free meal. It's 20 bucks for a weekend of entertainment from a source that you KNOW provides quality! What a bunch of ungrateful twats.
"Everything online should always be free! Let us have everything for nothing! ME ME ME ME ME! I only support eSports when it's spoon-fed to me at no cost!"
E-sports will never grow with this community of free-loaders. Not even willing to pay $1 dollar an hour... lol
I pay $24 a month for GSL, and get about 10x the content
I have to agree. I am not a subscriber to GSL because I do not find it that interesting(yes highest level of play but still only watching free stream from now and then...call me crazy  ) but I am willing to support and help esports grow. I did that for HSCIV and should have done it for HSCIII as well cuz they both were awesome. But this is sort of a "support us or else..." argument I do not like, especially if I am the customer and MLG has to look appealing to me. They should rethink their business model in my opinion, if they cannot make a profit in the first place.
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On February 14 2012 10:36 Mycl wrote:
This is a massive step for both MLG and every other tournament out there. If MLG can sacrifice the low quality stream free-loaders and come out more profitable, more tournaments will adopt this model. This is a huge move and when the event is said and done it may change the entire landscape
You do understand that if only basically 10% of thier current viewership adopts follows and pays, they'll profit, right?
Effectively, if they eliminate 90% of their viewership and fanbase...you'd support that idea because they'd make more money initially?
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Biggest scam is that I assumed by paying for a gold membership I would have access to all of the MLG events during my subscription...
Makes me never want to buy anything from MLG ever again...
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On February 14 2012 10:39 DR.Ham wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:35 DyEnasTy wrote:I think people are so spoiled with everything being free for so long. But at the same time they are hypocrites because they want SC to be more legitimate, yet to make it that, it would require something from them. Money. So instead of buying worthless shit food at a convenience store, save that money and buy this. Actually I am really thinking of going to the Davis BarCraft for this. should be fun! So, your thinking of not paying and going to a barcraft instead. While saying others should skip food to support MLG. The irony is hilarious.
The barcraft is 1 day dumbass. I am buying the pass for friday and saturday then going to barcraft sunday.
And when did I say dont eat? I said stop wasting money at overpriced convenience stores on food that has no nutritional value. Maybe you should get some glasses.
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On February 14 2012 10:19 Saig0n wrote:Poll: What is the maximum amount of money you would pay?10 Dollars (39) 34% Would not pay not matter the bost (34) 30% 5 Dollars (28) 25% 20 Dollars (10) 9% 15 Dollars (3) 3% 114 total votes Your vote: What is the maximum amount of money you would pay? (Vote): 20 Dollars
(Vote): 15 Dollars
(Vote): 10 Dollars
(Vote): 5 Dollars
(Vote): Would not pay not matter the bost
Not sure if this poll was already created but have not seen it thus far. Edit: Dear god i butchered the " would not pay no matter the cost" Damn!
Funny thing-- the results of this poll contradict the poll results on the first page.
First page poll, 15% say they will pay 20$.
This poll, 8% say they will pay up to 20$ (i.e. 92% say they will pay up to an amount less than 20$)
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On February 14 2012 10:39 DR.Ham wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:35 DyEnasTy wrote:I think people are so spoiled with everything being free for so long. But at the same time they are hypocrites because they want SC to be more legitimate, yet to make it that, it would require something from them. Money. So instead of buying worthless shit food at a convenience store, save that money and buy this. Actually I am really thinking of going to the Davis BarCraft for this. should be fun! So, your thinking of not paying and going to a barcraft instead. While saying others should skip food to support MLG. The irony is hilarious.
Yeah... I was like "man his idea of spoiled people is screwed up... but maybe I misreaded that... since it's not my native language".. I just hope he's being sarcastic. D:
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Ready, set, FLAMES!
I am extremely disappointed in this announcement. Am I going to have to pay $110 to watch all MLG SC2 content in 2012? Free streams of Asus ROG Invite will be going on the same weekend.
I have already discovered a major flaw in the Premium Stream Page. Advertisments play with audio while I am trying to enjoy another stream. Also the video quality is quite average, similar to that of NASL free stream. Does this mean my internet is incapable of streaming HD video?
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I think the fact that this event doesn't have a live audience may require PPV. Given the cost per thousand viewers discussed by Twitch.tv, it's simply not practical to support a cost $100,000+ event with free streams. They therefore need either live tickets, sponsorship, or PPV. Since they want to be more self-sustaining, and since the Arena won't support an audience, they need at least maybe 10,000 people to pay for the event, which is not at all unrealistic.
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On February 14 2012 10:41 DyEnasTy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:39 DR.Ham wrote:On February 14 2012 10:35 DyEnasTy wrote:I think people are so spoiled with everything being free for so long. But at the same time they are hypocrites because they want SC to be more legitimate, yet to make it that, it would require something from them. Money. So instead of buying worthless shit food at a convenience store, save that money and buy this. Actually I am really thinking of going to the Davis BarCraft for this. should be fun! So, your thinking of not paying and going to a barcraft instead. While saying others should skip food to support MLG. The irony is hilarious. The barcraft is 1 day dumbass. I am buying the pass for friday and saturday then going to barcraft sunday. And when did I say dont eat? I said stop wasting money at overpriced convenience stores on food that has no nutritional value. Maybe you should get some glasses.
So you say don't buy food, instead spend it on MLG. How does that not involve not eating?
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On February 14 2012 10:20 EnderSword wrote:
I'm going to pay it, but I'm like 30 years old. I think they set the price point a little too high for their market...especially since this is a LAN without and audience type event.
I think PPV Weekend events are also going to hit an issue of 'Why pay for Friday/Saturday when im gonig to a BarCraft Sunday?'
That's where Bar-rights come into play.
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From a business standpoint - this is a great decision. There will be a bunch of... People who will pay the $20 for the ticket.
Airfare from Korea shouldn't be more than $1,200 ($1,116 on United at the time of writing). When you factor in the Americans, that means the travel costs won't be over $30,000. Add that to $26,000 for the prizes and you get $56,000 for the players. Which means they only need 2,800 ticket-holders to cover those costs.
If players get the hotel paid for as well, that could cost around $10,000. Paid food could be additional $6,000. 800 more ticket holders.
I didn't include casters and production costs there, but I guess that shouldn't cost more than $28,000, so we end up with a nice round sum of $100,000, for which they need only 5,000 purchases of the PPV ticket.
As far as I remember, they averaged 50,000 viewers, which means it was viewed by many more. So to get to the 5,000 buyers, they need to convert less than a tenth of that to average those 5,000 viewers. I'd wager they need to convert only 1 in 20 viewers (5%) to be profitable.
I didn't even factor the sponsors, ads and all that stuff that is nothing but extra income for them.
Than again, I might be pulling all these numbers out of my ass.
My personal opinion: I don't like it at all and I won't be paying $20 for it when I have higher quality alternatives like GSL available or a another tournament (Assembly) with better foreigners at the same time for free.
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Eliminate non-paying portion of the SC2 fan-base by adopting more payment schemes and the elimination of ad based content... Brilliance! This sounds really sustainable from an economic perspective based on current SC2 streaming audience numbers guys!
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I'll stick to barcrafts and live events.
Speaking of which, is there any information regarding studio tickets for the Winter Arena?
It's not the same thing without having a live audience studio. It's integral part of the experience. It would also be nice if they have the proper equipment to pick up the sound of the audience members as well (a lot trickier to do in convention centers without preemptive planning).
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EPT
