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On February 09 2012 17:32 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 17:21 m4inbrain wrote:On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote:
@mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have. In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want. Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying. Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
Oh, so we should have our standards lowered because the industry is growing but the wallet wide open to support the event and the trouble they are putting through?
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I don't know what's wrong with the current system with free LQ-stream and PPV-HD Stream. Most leagues do this. The only big event that gives HD stream for free is Dreamhack, which has by the way the best production of all the foreign leagues.
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Esports absolutely needs to keep pushing towards monetization. It's a fine line, and each content provider will need to find their own price point, but in order for this to be a viable business model they must monetize. Consumers will pay as long as the price is appropriate for the product.
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On February 09 2012 17:09 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 17:02 willy001 wrote:
Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content. Because you dont get better content. You get the same content. The content is generated by the dudes playing, not by MLG itself. They just provide the stream, organisation etc. You would pay for a better production. And well, before i pay, i want to see that better production - because to be brutally honest (apart from GSL, again), the production sucks in most of the big events. Dreamhack was decent, MLG just sucks, so does IGN. The production is merely above amateurish (note: i dont say i could do it better, but then again, i dont want to charge someone for something), there are technical problems of every sort in almost every event, etc. Edit: take IGN Sao Paolo as example, Rotterdam and Bitter in some T-Shirts, sweating their asses off (no offense to them of course). Thats for amateurs. Its not just the stream, but every single bit around that. You want to play big as a league? Well better start getting some professionalism in that. No sweaty nerds, no wooden desks painted to look like metal, no "studio" which looks worse than the inside of the shed behind my house, airconditioning for the casters (and a "cosmetic-dude"), stuff like that. May sound exaggerated, but thats what you pay for in PPV. Organisation, professionalism. Not saying that i dont like the actual stuff, but if you really want to charge me with a lot of money, i want something back in return. And that does not stop after setting up a HQ stream, sorry.
Just to clarify, are you talking about IEM, IGN Pro League or both?
I think IPL 3 did a good job regarding content on their main event.
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On February 09 2012 17:32 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 17:21 m4inbrain wrote:On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote:
@mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have. In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want. Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying. Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
While I am not getting proper production I don't see why I ought to be paying proper prices.
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On February 09 2012 17:43 Rybaia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 17:09 m4inbrain wrote:On February 09 2012 17:02 willy001 wrote:
Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content. Because you dont get better content. You get the same content. The content is generated by the dudes playing, not by MLG itself. They just provide the stream, organisation etc. You would pay for a better production. And well, before i pay, i want to see that better production - because to be brutally honest (apart from GSL, again), the production sucks in most of the big events. Dreamhack was decent, MLG just sucks, so does IGN. The production is merely above amateurish (note: i dont say i could do it better, but then again, i dont want to charge someone for something), there are technical problems of every sort in almost every event, etc. Edit: take IGN Sao Paolo as example, Rotterdam and Bitter in some T-Shirts, sweating their asses off (no offense to them of course). Thats for amateurs. Its not just the stream, but every single bit around that. You want to play big as a league? Well better start getting some professionalism in that. No sweaty nerds, no wooden desks painted to look like metal, no "studio" which looks worse than the inside of the shed behind my house, airconditioning for the casters (and a "cosmetic-dude"), stuff like that. May sound exaggerated, but thats what you pay for in PPV. Organisation, professionalism. Not saying that i dont like the actual stuff, but if you really want to charge me with a lot of money, i want something back in return. And that does not stop after setting up a HQ stream, sorry. Just to clarify, are you talking about IEM or IGN Pro League?
Argh, IEM, of course. Im sorry, will edit that.
Edit: well IPL3 was decent, but actually, there were problems as well. Starting with the internet-crash, open bracket pretty boring (i wouldnt pay for that), etc.
But again, decent overall. But far away from the premium-content you need to have to be able to charge "big money".
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I didn't read any replies but, LordJerith is fucking right he fucking got the idea of f ... okay i like his rant, but all in all he got it right. Listen to people who know how businesses are run.
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On February 09 2012 17:43 Rybaia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 17:09 m4inbrain wrote:On February 09 2012 17:02 willy001 wrote:
Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content. Because you dont get better content. You get the same content. The content is generated by the dudes playing, not by MLG itself. They just provide the stream, organisation etc. You would pay for a better production. And well, before i pay, i want to see that better production - because to be brutally honest (apart from GSL, again), the production sucks in most of the big events. Dreamhack was decent, MLG just sucks, so does IGN. The production is merely above amateurish (note: i dont say i could do it better, but then again, i dont want to charge someone for something), there are technical problems of every sort in almost every event, etc. Edit: take IGN Sao Paolo as example, Rotterdam and Bitter in some T-Shirts, sweating their asses off (no offense to them of course). Thats for amateurs. Its not just the stream, but every single bit around that. You want to play big as a league? Well better start getting some professionalism in that. No sweaty nerds, no wooden desks painted to look like metal, no "studio" which looks worse than the inside of the shed behind my house, airconditioning for the casters (and a "cosmetic-dude"), stuff like that. May sound exaggerated, but thats what you pay for in PPV. Organisation, professionalism. Not saying that i dont like the actual stuff, but if you really want to charge me with a lot of money, i want something back in return. And that does not stop after setting up a HQ stream, sorry. Just to clarify, are you talking about IEM or IGN Pro League?
So you don't understand this text unless we clarify whether or not it's supposed to be IEM Sao Paolo or IGN Sao Paolo?
Before asking the question of which it is, should you not ask yourself first when has there ever been an IGN Pro League Sao Paolo going on? Because I think it'd be harder to misspell(or get mixed up) the IGN/IEM part rather than the Sao Paolo/Pro League part.
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On February 09 2012 17:41 nakedsurfer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 17:32 NightOfTheDead wrote:On February 09 2012 17:21 m4inbrain wrote:On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote:
@mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have. In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want. Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying. Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot. Lol are you troll or for serious? Have in mind that Jared is trying to compare SC2 to UFC & WWe and says we should charge in a way that they do and then you tell mainbrain that he can't compare it as well? If you're going to charge people 25$ or whatever for 3 days and the production value isn't top notch and their main reasoning so far is; well it needs to be like WWE because thats the only way it'll be successful but don't compare our production to that which I just compared to because we havn't grown enough. If we havn't grown enough then don't try and adopt a system which is clearly more advanced.
I agree with this. Besides, the point I believe m4inbrain was trying to make is that GSL has by far the best production value (which is true), and every other org. is mediocre in comparison. The UFC is the top MMA organization, which is why people are willing to pay. Smaller MMA orgs like Bellator have much smaller viewership and less people who pay, because the quality is inferior. Orgs. like MLG and IGN who have worse products shouldn't expect to be able to charge GSL prices for a product that is not GSL caliber.
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On February 09 2012 17:43 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 17:32 NightOfTheDead wrote:On February 09 2012 17:21 m4inbrain wrote:On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote:
@mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have. In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want. Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying. Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot. Oh, so we should have our standards lowered because the industry is growing but the wallet wide open to support the event and the trouble they are putting through?
Simple answer would be yes, if you are a fan. And no, if you think there are alternatives, that would bring higher values for the price. Or was it a rhetoric question?
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On February 09 2012 17:45 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 17:43 Rybaia wrote:On February 09 2012 17:09 m4inbrain wrote:On February 09 2012 17:02 willy001 wrote:
Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content. Because you dont get better content. You get the same content. The content is generated by the dudes playing, not by MLG itself. They just provide the stream, organisation etc. You would pay for a better production. And well, before i pay, i want to see that better production - because to be brutally honest (apart from GSL, again), the production sucks in most of the big events. Dreamhack was decent, MLG just sucks, so does IGN. The production is merely above amateurish (note: i dont say i could do it better, but then again, i dont want to charge someone for something), there are technical problems of every sort in almost every event, etc. Edit: take IGN Sao Paolo as example, Rotterdam and Bitter in some T-Shirts, sweating their asses off (no offense to them of course). Thats for amateurs. Its not just the stream, but every single bit around that. You want to play big as a league? Well better start getting some professionalism in that. No sweaty nerds, no wooden desks painted to look like metal, no "studio" which looks worse than the inside of the shed behind my house, airconditioning for the casters (and a "cosmetic-dude"), stuff like that. May sound exaggerated, but thats what you pay for in PPV. Organisation, professionalism. Not saying that i dont like the actual stuff, but if you really want to charge me with a lot of money, i want something back in return. And that does not stop after setting up a HQ stream, sorry. Just to clarify, are you talking about IEM or IGN Pro League? Argh, IEM, of course. Im sorry, will edit that.
Thx man.
I have to say you have a good point. I wouldn't mind pay for tournaments iif they step their shit up.
Not only on the production value but also on the content part. I think IPL 3 did a very good job when it comes down to extra content.
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Also something to think about here is that by removing the free low res options from events I think its safe to say that your total amount of viewers is reduced. This matters when trying to secure funds via ads.
If you go to a company and say we got 10k paid subscribers or you go to a company and say we got 100k free viewers. They are obviously going to prefer the 100k viewer number.
Another question is the PPV WWF and UFC even a good successful working model? Look at all the 'leagues' that use to exist that have now gone bankrupt or merged like Pride, WCW and ECW.
I've noticed that even UFC seems to be moving away from purely PPV and cable as they now have a partnership with fox sports.
Then look at something like the NFL, revenue as far as I understand is largely driven by ads and the sale of team apparel. The super bowl is free to watch and the ads cost marketers millions of dollars. With the increased viewers numbers comes more ad revenue.
Relatively the total number of viewers we have right now is kinda small and by further reducing it by forcing people to pay may kill some the leagues.
Edit: Also as a side note I bought an MLG pass last year to support them and by proxy the players. I honestly think the production value of MLG are fairly well done. The total amount of hrs of entertainment I get vs the cost is spectacular.
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Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
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On February 09 2012 17:50 Witten wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 17:41 nakedsurfer wrote:On February 09 2012 17:32 NightOfTheDead wrote:On February 09 2012 17:21 m4inbrain wrote:On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote:
@mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have. In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want. Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying. Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot. Lol are you troll or for serious? Have in mind that Jared is trying to compare SC2 to UFC & WWe and says we should charge in a way that they do and then you tell mainbrain that he can't compare it as well? If you're going to charge people 25$ or whatever for 3 days and the production value isn't top notch and their main reasoning so far is; well it needs to be like WWE because thats the only way it'll be successful but don't compare our production to that which I just compared to because we havn't grown enough. If we havn't grown enough then don't try and adopt a system which is clearly more advanced. I agree with this. Besides, the point I believe m4inbrain was trying to make is that GSL has by far the best production value (which is true), and every other org. is mediocre in comparison. The UFC is the top MMA organization, which is why people are willing to pay. Smaller MMA orgs like Bellator have much smaller viewership and less people who pay, because the quality is inferior. Orgs. like MLG and IGN who have worse products shouldn't expect to be able to charge GSL prices for a product that is not GSL caliber.
Pretty much that. I actually am awake for 36 hours straight now, i cant even follow a proper thought in my mothertongue, let alone in english. Ill tap out of this, maybe ill join after a good day/nights sleep.
But yeah, pretty much what you said is my opinion, but in nicer words.
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On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote:
Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant?
How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge?
Dude those perspectives like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday.
Did you even know you pay for TV?
And I for me allready pay for MLG, HSC and GSL. The Tournies I watch regularly.
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On February 09 2012 16:56 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 16:49 flowSthead wrote:On February 09 2012 16:32 m4inbrain wrote:
Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that. First of all, your 50% is a totally made up statistic. If you have a source I would love to read it, but otherwise where do you get that number? It could be 90% or it could be 10%. 50% is completely random. As for your hardware example, that is a bad example. There are so many places to go buy hardware from and you will be buying the same hardware. If I want to watch DRG vs MMA in an epic best of 7 then I have to pay for the Blizzard Cup. I can't watch DRG vs MMA at some MLG for free because there is no guarantee that I will get that same epic best of 7. It's not comparable. What might happen is I go to watch LoL or Dota instead of SC2 (if you're into that; if all you watch is SC then it won't matter). Its actually no statistic at all (but feel free to start a poll). But a reasonable guess. Watch streamchats, forums etc - you will get the reason. And of course its comparable. How do you know that your MMA vs DRG will be epic? Could be DRG dronerushing MMA. And apart from that: just look around you. Every single game/sport that has "business" involved is dominated by ONE big league/tournament. Why is that? Someone in this thread actually had the right idea, just think about world of warcraft. How many p2p-MMOs do you see on the market, and better: how do they compare to WoW in terms of subscriptions? Yeah. You guessed right, the only one noteworthy is SWTOR. And well, i just cancelled by sub after the first month, and so did many others. You cant(!) have 4 big leagues next to each other. That doesnt work. Because business is also about expanding. If you want to expand, you need to kill the other leagues, because no one would actually pay 25$ a month to 4 different leagues. That just wont happen.
think ufc is the only mma promoter? think it was always the biggest? it became dominate by producing a better product than its competitors, which got driven out cuz they couldnt keep up. that caused all the best fighters to go to ufc and gave them more money and to host bigger, more frequent events.
there are too many tournaments. players cant afford to go to all of them. for the time being you still get the best koreans playing against each other in gsl for various practical reasons, but more and more koreans are looking to foreign teams. and if you want to see the best foreigners competing against each other or against top koreans, you're gonna have to start weeding out tournaments. its already started to happen, you dont get to see nestea vs mkp or stephano vs huk in a couple weeks cuz two of them are going to assembly and two of them are going to mlg.
you're always going to have free content in user streams and smaller online tournaments. people who are into computer games, who can afford to spend 60$ on sc2, are not THAT stressed for money. they can afford to pay for a product that is as entertaining and high quality as what mlg and ipl have put out, and given that more stable, profitable business model that product will only get better.
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Put on PPV on real tv and now were talking.
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I pay for GSL, but that's mainly for vods, not for the HQ stream.
If MLG start charging their streams, I'm not so sure whether I would pay for it, I might just sway to one of the free alternatives.
But the MLG changed a lot from 2011 to 2012, maybe I need to revaluate my opinion of it.
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On February 09 2012 18:00 Sky0 wrote:
Put on PPV on real tv and now were talking.
allready happening here dude. Its just about the business model. Like Jerith said; twitch.tv as the cable company, the Tournies as the channel. And here u go: pay X per year and watch. ezpz
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On February 09 2012 17:56 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote:
Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that. Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectices like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
Well, ever heard about Hartz4? As a german, im sure you know that term. What do you think, its just a german problem? I have to work hard for my money, others just DONT HAVE IT. I dont know what you do for a living, but i have rent to pay, a car to insure, a family to feed. Maybe if you are some decadent child with absolutely no relationship to money, yeah, then its easy to take 25 bucks from somewhere and dump it into crap. I cant (and wont).
And yeah i have to pay GEZ from my own money, not the money from my parents (or pirated). Even more reason.
Actually, its really ridiculous how many people dont have any sense for money. Mindboggling.
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EPT
