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Poor Sundance, I'll buy a ticket next MLG to warm his heart a little :3
On a more serious note, people have to accept that if esports is going to become a business, it's got to be a BUSINESS and make money. Ads are good, but they support streamers, not companies with employees and payroll. I'd be fine with SC2 adopting the MMA business model for big tournaments; if GSL made me pay 5 bucks a season to watch even the "free" stream I'd do it, I think for the amount of enjoyment I get from watching it, that's perfectly reasonable.
We're really spoiled to have people who can dedicate their lives to making content through streaming, and we have to accept that if we want something more grandiose than Steven Bonnell at his computer playing ladder, they're going to need more support than just turning off Adblock. Commercialize all you want, it can be nothing but good for the industry, but please make there be an affordable option, some of us are starving college kids =(
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Here's the issue as I see it. It's not a problem with monetization or making people pay the right price. The problem is in convincing people that the price is worth it. Look at this guy a little above me:
On February 09 2012 15:54 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
I also find it ridiculous GOM already charges out the ass for their subscription (20$ a month if you want to watch the dual stream when it used to be free for all LOL) while Koreans get to watch it for free (just adverts)
GOM provides one stream for free and a second stream at the exact same time used to be provided for free and this guy is pissed at GOM because he can only pay attention to one game at a time. I understand the frustration because it was something that he thought would be free, but really there has only been one previous GSL season where the dual stream was free (there was no dual stream before that) and one season later people are super pissed off that it isn't free. This is something that didn't exist before for GOM 3 months ago, and all of a sudden it is absolutely essential.
So what solution do I think needs to happen? Better marketing. Marketing isn't just about telling people what your product is or what it does. Marketing is also about convincing people that your product is worth it. I wrote a blog with a well reasoned argument about how the GSL ticket prices are definitely worth it if you enjoy watching SC games, and I got 2 people giving me a 1 star. It seems most people see a certain price tag and just throw their hands up in the air going "it's too fucking expensive". These companies just need to convince people that it isn't expensive and that the money that is going to be spent is worth it.
Since you are going to be making a choice on what to purchase anyway between hundreds of different things, why wouldn't you be trying to convince people that your product is worth it? Well because right now most companies think that this market is made up of die hard fans that will stay in good times or bad because they want to watch eSports. This is somewhat true. But when it comes to paying money this isn't because money is a more tangible sacrifice than time for most people. The way to monetize eSports is just to convince people that the sacrifice is worth it. And there is truly little of that going on.
It's weird because there have been opportunities to do it too. Instead of just adding stuff and making everything better, why not add stuff and have people pay for it? MLG added a second free stream for starcraft and then later added a few more streams that people can pay to watch. This is a problem because MLG set a precedent that you should be able to see most games and that having a second stream available should be mandatory for a tournament of that size and in that time. What happens later if they do try to monetize the second stream? MLG gets shit from the community and are called greedy.
It's a good thing to have a base that is free. That is how you can get people to watch by including a base stream that is free and relatively good quality. I think 480p is good enough to be able to enjoy anything (my internet is slow so I pretty much watch 360p on YouTube and on streams and it is fine). Anything higher should cost something. There are people willing to pay for that and anyone that isn't has access to the free stream. The problem is that so many different companies offer different things for free, that it is difficult not to get hate if you happen to charge. This one offers 720p for free. This one offers free VODs. This one offers free second stream. And the everyone writes about how this other company does it and you should too.
Despite common knowledge, some of these companies should really start ignoring the community when it comes to monetization. They should just do it, see if it works or if they lose money, and then go back on what they did if it doesn't work. Saying sorry works well enough for 90% of the community that it will be a good test. There are always going to be people that complain about paying for things, and some of these people pay anyway. It's not very useful to listen to them.
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On February 09 2012 16:12 Adebisi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 15:36 Blackfoger wrote:
As far as PPV can also take any other sports like football baseball basketball they do successful due to advertising. There are many other avenue's of monetization. SC2 community is small already don't need to alienate more people because the current market of viewers are mostly lower income college males. Please, these "lower income college males" have a fucking ridiculous disposable income in the vast majority of cases. However much an SC2 tournament stream costs will not break their bank.
Big fan, but have to disagree Adebisi. I'm in that boat. Simply can't pay for streams, but don't mind watching adds. Even people who could afford it might not be bothered. For example, I tried to pay for gsl and they wouldn't accept my credit card so I never went back to them. Just watch tastosis live. I think it's probably better to increase the viewer base than to charge people for the streams before the viewer base is established.
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Kespa has well for the last decade without trying to nickle and dime people. Show me that the ROI is so low for IPL/MLG/ESL that it will soon to be a requirement to implement paid services in order to continue producing content.
Every major league has expanded since the beginning of 2011 without the need to require every viewer to pay. If one of these leagues goes under it is their fault for overestimated the market and I don't believe in going PPV to cover up their mistakes.
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On February 09 2012 16:14 lunchrush wrote:
On a more serious note, people have to accept that if esports is going to become a business, it's got to be a BUSINESS and make money. Ads are good, but they support streamers, not companies with employees and payroll. I'd be fine with SC2 adopting the MMA business model for big tournaments; if GSL made me pay 5 bucks a season to watch even the "free" stream I'd do it, I think for the amount of enjoyment I get from watching it, that's perfectly reasonable.
We're really spoiled to have people who can dedicate their lives to making content through streaming, and we have to accept that if we want something more grandiose than Steven Bonnell at his computer playing ladder, they're going to need more support than just turning off Adblock. Commercialize all you want, it can be nothing but good for the industry, but please make there be an affordable option, some of us are starving college kids =(
This pretty much sums it up...
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On February 09 2012 16:07 lavit2099 wrote:
If Blizzard taught us anything: cater to the casual fans and watch your numbers and monies grow.
To follow up on this, let's take a look at the current state of online video games. A lot of companies are seeing huge increases in profit by opening it up to the casual player by having free-to-play games or trials and then either having people pay for extra content or items/clothes, etc. And it works because if enough people play then some people will pay as well. That absolute number will rise as the absolute number of people playing rises, even if the percentage becomes smaller.
There is two problems in regards to SC2 in relation to this. First of all, a lot of the time we are talking about 0 monetization versus some monetization in regards to SC2. In these f2p games there are tons of things you can pay for. If streams had things on the side that said "Pay 1 dollar and get the heart rates of the players while during the game" or something like that, I am sure this could work but there are very few things that apply to a stream as opposed to a game.
Second, and more importantly, eSports already doesn't have too many casual viewers (at least in the foreign scene). You are already in the hardcore so monetizing isn't going to supremely hurt your numbers. Things would be different if eSports actually became popular.
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Sure, he can TRY to charge people for high quality streams if he thinks he will get enough paying viewers.
But SC2 isn't that big and the only tournament worthy of getting my money is GSL.
I just watch everything else for the lulz.
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The issue with trying to capitalize monetarily at this moment is what many others have mentioned before. There isn't the quality in production for every tournament to charge. The only thing I'll pay for at this point in time is GSL. It has a great production value and I get a ton of content for my money. If you look at the GSL in seasons 1-3 or so, the production was decent but doesn't compare to what it is now. MLG has also consistently improved the SC2 side of their production. I think the issue with MLG, however, is the fact that it every couple of months for a marathon weekend. You don't get to see every game played and even if you wanted to watch all of the VODs, you only have three days to get all of the content before it becomes less relevant. I don't mind watching good games after an event is over but I won't watch the matches that are unimportant if the winner of the event is already decided. Fortunately, the GSL at the moment has a system where games hold weight for at least a week. I have time to watch some of the live streams before bed and then I finish up games the next day. If it was a particularly heavy day with tons of games I'll spread it out over the week.
There just isn't enough content to charge upwards of $20 for the lesser events however. I can only see that killing them off right now with no one truly willing to fund them through a payment plan. Advertising at this point makes the most sense and production value can steadily increase to a point where the fee might be warranted. However, PPV in general always seems steep in pricing. Unless you have a bar to watch it at or a group of people to split the cost, the model typically has issues. Most people sitting at home for a weekend of SC2 most likely don't have the $30 PPV cost to throw around every other weekend just to see a few games. It's completely reasonable to work on a low budget and grow your company/tournament. Once you do this and at least give quality comparable to what we see in Korea right now, then you have the opportunity to do something along these lines. The smaller tournaments will either have to follow an ad-based model or die out. I don't ever see there being more than a handful of big tournaments who will be able to offer content worth paying for.
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On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote:
I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
You're missing the more likely result of complete monetization: The top league becomes filthy rich, and the rest die entirely, reduced to small audiences and "indy league" quality, just like the situation with Professional Wrestling and MMA. And this isn't a what-if scenario, it's the one that exists in SC2 right now.
The GSL is the league, and there is absolutely no argument about that. Viewers can't and won't pay for every tournament, so they are going to be selective about their money, and more often than not, the GSL is going to be the one to get that revenue. In other words, if tournaments like IPL, NASL, MLG, etc. don't stream for free, then they will probably vanish into obscurity.
I think the biggest issue is the mentality that free streams are a "charity model" as you put it, which couldn't be further from the truth. Look at the MMORPG scene, for instance. WoW is the only Pay-to-Play game left, and it dominates everything. How did ever other game remain relevant and profitable? By removing subscriptions entirely, making access to the game 100% free, and then charging for peripherals...and more often than not, that made them even more profitable than before.
I couldn't possibly say what would be smart marketing tactics, or how these tournaments could generate revenue. But I can, and will, say with certainty, that a pay-to-watch business model will only benefit the top-tier organizations, and would be the swiftest way to kill off the ones that aren't on top.
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If streams cost money, I would probably bootleg them in all honesty (sorry eSports! I'm a poor college student xO). I feel like the audience demographics for eSports is sufficiently different from that of WWE, etc. to support a similar business model.
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On February 09 2012 16:14 flowSthead wrote:Here's the issue as I see it. It's not a problem with monetization or making people pay the right price. The problem is in convincing people that the price is worth it. Look at this guy a little above me: Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 15:54 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
I also find it ridiculous GOM already charges out the ass for their subscription (20$ a month if you want to watch the dual stream when it used to be free for all LOL) while Koreans get to watch it for free (just adverts) GOM provides one stream for free and a second stream at the exact same time used to be provided for free and this guy is pissed at GOM because he can only pay attention to one game at a time. I understand the frustration because it was something that he thought would be free, but really there has only been one previous GSL season where the dual stream was free (there was no dual stream before that) and one season later people are super pissed off that it isn't free. This is something that didn't exist before for GOM 3 months ago, and all of a sudden it is absolutely essential.
I havent read the rest of your post so Im just quoting this bit.
Yes it only was for 1 previous GSL but thats because GOM keeps changing their league format. They realised oh wow we have too many games lets add a second stream so people can pick and choose what they want to watch.
That was fine, pick between the two its free.
Now since you have to pay 20$+ to watch one or both of the streams (not available to 15$/mo light premium)
GOM can decide to put the better games on the 2nd stream which costs money which is fucking stupid and wrong.
I dont even understand why they did this in the first place because they spoil the other match results during the LIVE broadcast so there isnt even a point to watch the VOD later because you already know the match results
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Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that.
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On February 09 2012 16:23 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote:
I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is. You're missing the more likely result of complete monetization: The top league becomes filthy rich, and the rest die entirely, reduced to small audiences and "indy league" quality, just like the situation with Professional Wrestling and MMA. And this isn't a what-if scenario, it's the one that exists in SC2 right now. The GSL is the league, and there is absolutely no argument about that. Viewers can't and won't pay for every tournament, so they are going to be selective about their money, and more often than not, the GSL is going to be the one to get that revenue. In other words, if tournaments like IPL, NASL, MLG, etc. don't stream for free, then they will probably vanish into obscurity. I think the biggest issue is the mentality that free streams are a "charity model" as you put it, which couldn't be further from the truth. Look at the MMORPG scene, for instance. WoW is the only Pay-to-Play game left, and it dominates everything. How did ever other game remain relevant and profitable? By removing subscriptions entirely, making access to the game 100% free, and then charging for peripherals...and more often than not, that made them even more profitable than before. I couldn't possibly say what would be smart marketing tactics, or how these tournaments could generate revenue. But I can, and will, say with certainty, that a pay-to-watch business model will only benefit the top-tier organizations, and would be the swiftest way to kill off the ones that aren't on top.
Thank you! Best shit I've read along the complete drivel of posts in this thread.
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Personally, as long as things are reasonably priced (more content/production = higher price, 1 weekend tournament = lower), I'm okay with it, but I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority. There are definitely a lot of people not willing to pay for HD streams/vods right now for various reasons as others above me have mentioned.
On the poor college student note, I am one; but I made the conscious decision to eat out less so I could pay for GSL. I end up cooking a little bit more on the weekends instead of eating pizza so much, but it isn't that big of a deal to me. Instead of buying new videogames the week they came out, I buy them a few months later when they are on sale. If you want to cut corners for things you like, you'll find a way, but I understand that some people don't want to. Another point to note that somebody mentioned earlier is that quite a lot of people don't have really good internet (because of availability, location, etc.) so they don't have any motivation to pay for HD streams/vods. They might have good internet at college because of the school's network but not at home, or it's just bad in the area.
It's hard because in order for things to grow, we need to monetize things or leagues will die out because they need to be sustainable. If they can't break even and don't have ridiculous corporate backing, eventually the money dries up and those leagues will disappear. However, since the community is so used to having all this free content already, taking what used to be free and now saying it costs something is an idea a lot of people dislike. If leagues are seriously considering a PPV model, they will really need to increase their production value and execution to make consumers feel that it is worth purchasing. I'm not sure we're at a point where the community can and will support such a model with leagues.
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in it's current form, it cannot be monetized.
also i think it's still too new and too early to put things behind a pay wall. It'll hurt bringing in new viewership
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On February 09 2012 16:29 1sz2sz3sz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 16:14 flowSthead wrote:Here's the issue as I see it. It's not a problem with monetization or making people pay the right price. The problem is in convincing people that the price is worth it. Look at this guy a little above me: On February 09 2012 15:54 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
I also find it ridiculous GOM already charges out the ass for their subscription (20$ a month if you want to watch the dual stream when it used to be free for all LOL) while Koreans get to watch it for free (just adverts) GOM provides one stream for free and a second stream at the exact same time used to be provided for free and this guy is pissed at GOM because he can only pay attention to one game at a time. I understand the frustration because it was something that he thought would be free, but really there has only been one previous GSL season where the dual stream was free (there was no dual stream before that) and one season later people are super pissed off that it isn't free. This is something that didn't exist before for GOM 3 months ago, and all of a sudden it is absolutely essential. I havent read the rest of your post so Im just quoting this bit. Yes it only was for 1 previous GSL but thats because GOM keeps changing their league format. They realised oh wow we have too many games lets add a second stream so people can pick and choose what they want to watch. That was fine, pick between the two its free. Now since you have to pay 20$+ to watch one or both of the streams (not available to 15$/mo light premium) GOM can decide to put the better games on the 2nd stream which costs money which is fucking stupid and wrong. I dont even understand why they did this in the first place because they spoil the other match results during the LIVE broadcast so there isnt even a point to watch the VOD later because you already know the match results
First of all, there is no way to determine what the better match will be. But you are right that they spoil the match during the live broadcast and that does suck if all you care about is the result. The VODs are there if you want to watch the game since the result doesn't tell you how it happened.
As for having to pay $20, you can still watch one stream for free. That hasn't changed. You still get 4 best of 3s for free, and it is only for the first two rounds of Code A. All of Code S is still free. It's not stupid and wrong, it's just a different system. Since you get arguably the best games in Code S anyway, you aren't missing out on the best games.
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On February 09 2012 16:32 m4inbrain wrote:
Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that.
First of all, your 50% is a totally made up statistic. If you have a source I would love to read it, but otherwise where do you get that number? It could be 90% or it could be 10%. 50% is completely random.
As for your hardware example, that is a bad example. There are so many places to go buy hardware from and you will be buying the same hardware. If I want to watch DRG vs MMA in an epic best of 7 then I have to pay for the Blizzard Cup. I can't watch DRG vs MMA at some MLG for free because there is no guarantee that I will get that same epic best of 7. It's not comparable. What might happen is I go to watch LoL or Dota instead of SC2 (if you're into that; if all you watch is SC then it won't matter).
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If I can turn on a show and watch, reliably, without stupid breaks and failures, with non stop entertainment for 2-3 h, then I will pay. I have only seen this kind of quality reliably from GSL thus far, and I have bought several seasons tickets last year to watch their show. However when I bought MLG, each weekend was full of downtimes and when I had time to watch I could maybe catch one or two matches, sometimes none. That is not the kind of show I have time to watch, and I only kept my membership because I am a huge Starcraft2 E-Sports fan.
I think tournaments that start asking for more money/ stop their free stream will have to offer something similar in quality to the GSL or they won't be succesful.
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Also if youre not getting a big enough ROI couldnt you just lower the prize pool and stop giving it all expense paid trips to people?
I personally feel the prize pools for these events are far too large in the first place, seems GSL has set the bar on prize winnings and I only thought the prizepools were so large in the GSL because they wanted to try and attract people to switch over from BW etc, which seemed to flop.
I mean they already cut down on amount of GSLs per year and made up for it by doubling the length of the tournament, that saved em $400k alone in prizepool
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Let's be honest, fans at this moment pay more to see the players than to get a professional stream. Sure we rage when streams are down, but how many times have you heard the phrase "I payed just to support the event". This is unheard of in a regular business. The price of a ticket should be relevant with what it offers not how much donations the event can get from fans.
If tournaments like NASL like to call themselves a business then class it up like GSL. No more bad interviews, no more bad greenscreen/stages, no more bad casters, no more improvisations, no more excuses, no more ....
GSL at this moment is the benchmark, from a-z. It made me sick to the stomach when NASL charged 10$ for their 1st final and it started 3 hours late with 100 stream problems and people said "IT WILL BE BETTER NEXT TIME"! I don't fucking care. NASL took my money NOW, I want production quality NOW. I am not investing in NASL, but paying to get an immediate product.
So, tournaments should actually make a quality product that worths their money. As it is now, only GSL is on par with television shows.
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EPT
