On February 10 2012 01:49 CPTBadAss wrote: I'm not going to pretend I know anything about running a business or a professional SC2 team or a high profile tournament. I do know that as a fan of metal, I pay a lot of money to go to concerts each year. I think I saw about 15 concerts in 2011. Every show I see is about $20-30 and then I often drive hours out of my way to go see a show.
My point is, if you as a member of this community, love StarCraft 2 or League of Legends or Dota or Quake or whatever, you should be able to support your hobby. There is literally no hobby out there right now that is free. We in the StarCraft 2 community have been lucky in that there is so much free content. But in the end, you need money to keep things running.
I love MLG. I love Dreamhack. I'll vote with my dollars to support these events. $35 for a WEEKEND'S worth of entertainment? No problem. I've spent $50 for 3 hours at a concert. Why this is such a ludicrous amount to people I can't understand. If you truely love StarCraft 2, you can probably afford to spend a measly $50 or whatever it is for an MLG Gold Pass for what, 9 months of content? Or if you're cheap, Homestory Cup was $5 for HD!
Whether you like it or not the reality is that the players, admins, tournament organizers, teams, and everyone else related to a StarCraft 2 tournament needs money in some capacity. Hell, just to play SC2 you need to drop like $40-50. Imagine the costs of shipping in that huge ass satellite truck that MLG has. Or instantly replacing all the broken computers in the case of IEM Kiev.
If you love this sport, this scene, support it. A couple bucks will probably go a long way. And think about it, even if you don't watch the entire tournament, you probably got $20 of enjoyment out of it anyways right?
I would much rather spend $50 dollars on a concert that I get to go to, be social and have 5-6 hours worth of solid memories with my friends, than pay $35 on a weekend ticket of MLG and sit infront of my computer for 30 hours and try and watch all of the content possible. $50 for 3 hours of premium live content that you'll remember for a very long time has a far greater value than $35 dollars for as much content as MLG can ram down your throat over the course of a weekend (which by the way is aired on freestream the entire time too).
That's another issue entirely, but one that is very important and worthy of discussion. Events like MLG, IEM, etc require people to either dedicate their entire weekend to watching, or purchasing the vods and having to sit down and watch them when everyone already knows all the results, and with most of the excitement gone. I can tell you my two favorite Sc2 memories. Number 1 was going to bed at 8pm, waking up at 330, inviting 2 friends to my apartment, hooking my computer up to my TV and my shitty speakers, fumbling with the gomstreamer, and watching Jinro in the GSL. Noah fell asleep on the couch. Jinro won and Will became a huge fanboy and started to play Terran instead of Zerg. Number 2 involved my friends and I getting barbecue at a school picnic, sneaking away from people who wanted to hang out with us, hooking my computer up GSL style. Then, this happened.
These moments are why I watch Sc2, and why I can justify paying for the GSL. Watching Jinro made me a fan, hyped me up so much and really showed the power of this simple video game. Tournament formats like the GSL and TSL3 are very good at doing this. People love brackets. Pool play where everyone gets seeded anyways (like MLG) don't build as much tension. Nothing has filled me with as much excitement as the GSL Open Seasons. The games were awful, the production terrible, and the streams completely unreliable; but god damnit, the games mattered. They mattered a lot. If Boxer lost his first two games, he's out. You won't see him for another 2 months. Now If a player like Naniwa or Thorzain gets eliminated from a tournament, it's ok. They'll stream tomorrow. There are so many options to see Sc2 now that the events don't hold the same weight. The only event that still holds weight for me is the GSL. And even if I completely stop watching Sc2 sometime soon (which I doubt), I'll come back for TSL4.
Even if it's many, many years from now.
Now, I'm going to go watch some of the TSL3 vods and smile. And find Jinro's season 3 run and watch it straight through and make a pizza. God, sometimes I love Starcraft.
On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote: PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
/rant :p
I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
You sir are a huge troll bent on doing as much missinformation and spewing dumb false arguments everywhere. GSL stream is free, VOD's are not. You don't have to register on some obscure website to watch GSL ( u can log in with twitter/facebook) or MLG. I get that you don't like SC2 so just don't bother doing missinformation and ignore it. We don't really need a "huge fan" who can't pay 5$ for VOD's and can't be arsed to watch free streams even thou his so called heroes Boxer/nada are playing in those cups.
Foreginer cups actually are usually filled with nothing but VERY well know sc2 players. There are actually tons of threads about people complaining that other players don't get a chance to play in foreign cups due to the fact there are no free spots/qualificatins.
TL;DR Stop spreading false information, and if u don't like SC2 stop posting in SC2 General.
Similar to how other sports run a pay service (NBA, NFL, NHL) I'd gladly pay a monthly or annual fee to a SC Network which brought me action from major lan tourneys, spotlighted streamers, or the like. But when it's expected to support each and every player/team/event you like it becomes pricey. And even worse, there becomes this pyramid of players/teams who are supported, and then everyone else falling by the way side.
I would consider any reasonable fee. For me, and for a lot of people, the GSL is already PPV considering they offer no free version of the vods and the time of night they air. That said even for free I'm only interested in live events, I know my opinion isn't universal but I think now is as good a time as any to say how disappointed I was when Fuck Slasher was cancelled in favor of online tournaments.
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
Well if you aren't trolling, the first 3 seasons of the GSL are now free on the website. The games are pretty low quality because the game was so new back then, but it's a good way to learn who the players are and understand the devotion and loyalty people have to their players. It'll help you understand why people freaked out that NaDa and MC left oGs, that TSL doesn't look remotely the same anymore, and that fOu is now FXO. If you ever want to get invested and learn the history of the early days, this is a good opportunity to do it. I know sometimes BW people are hesitant to watch SC2, or get annoyed by SC2 fans, or don't want this game to kill the game they love. I don't either. I got into watching Broodwar because of ScII. Artosis would mention July's golden mouse, or NaDa's greatness, or Boxer at all and I had to know. I saw Boxer bunker rush yellOw three times. I saw Boxer marine scv all-in in a championship match. I watched Hiya[fOu] do the trap card ceremony. I witnessed Firebathero be... Firebathero. If you don't enjoy the Sc2 vods or the scene, that's fine. You're very lucky that you have 10 years of an amazing game to fall back on.
On February 10 2012 02:26 Slusher wrote: I would consider any reasonable fee. For me, and for a lot of people, the GSL is already PPV considering they offer no free version of the vods and the time of night they air. That said even for free I'm only interested in live events, I know my opinion isn't universal but I think now is as good a time as any to say how disappointed I was when Fuck Slasher was cancelled in favor of online tournaments.
My arguement against only paying for live events is TSL3. Would you have paid for it? I would have. High quality is what people should pay for; whether it is a LAN or online tournament.
On February 10 2012 02:05 phanto wrote: I pay to watch the top players competing in a consistent and reliable tournament or show. Today, that tournament is GSL. I would never pay to watch NA or NA/EU-only (something like NASL). OTOH, I don't pay for GSTL because of casters (moletrap - wolf and khaldor are okay). So it's just a matter of taste I guess.
I'm with this guy. I got the premium GSL ticket for the year because the Code S tournament is the most prestigious (quoting Nani) with the highest-caliber players. The new format also forces those players to stay in top form lest they end up perpetually mired in Code A.
It's easy to keep up with Code S and not feeling like I'm watching content that is comparatively "old" like I would have to do if I got MLG/DH/etc. tickets. When it comes to foreign tournaments, MLG/DH/etc. Finals Day is usually all that I have time for; personally I find it difficult to spend an entire weekend doing nothing but watching SC2. The format also doesn't allow for some of the more creative preplanned builds for which the time off during the GSL affords, the flipside of that being testing the spontaneous play abilities of the players.
That said, I certainly enjoy their content and do not expect to get it for free. Are their daily HQ passes? I certainly would get my money's worth of $5-10 for HQ Finals Day.
On February 10 2012 01:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:20 MrCon wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
You sir are a huge troll bent on doing as much missinformation and spewing dumb false arguments everywhere. GSL stream is free, VOD's are not. You don't have to register on some obscure website to watch GSL ( u can log in with twitter/facebook) or MLG. I get that you don't like SC2 so just don't bother doing missinformation and ignore it. We don't really need a "huge fan" who can't pay 5$ for VOD's and can't be arsed to watch free streams even thou his so called heroes Boxer/nada are playing in those cups.
Foreginer cups actually are usually filled with nothing but VERY well know sc2 players. There are actually tons of threads about people complaining that other players don't get a chance to play in foreign cups due to the fact there are no free spots/qualificatins.
TL;DR Stop spreading false information, and if u don't like SC2 stop posting in SC2 General.
LOL. Hey dude, I've been there for four years and I have 35 times more post than you on this website. So maybe don't talk to me as if I just arrived there and knew nothing.
I don't say that the scene is this way or that way. I say that, as much as I have been caught in BW because precisely the biggest league were easy to access and free, I didn't get into watching SC2 because:
1- The biggest league is not free. Ok, maybe it is IF you register on GOMIdon'tknnowwhat and catch the exact time, and if you don't you won't find the VOD on youtube anyway.
2- It's not exciting to watch small leagues when you don't know the game well.
That's not misinformation, it's not true or false, it's just my experience. Maybe I am wrong, but still, I am not a SC2 fan, the scene didn't catch me, while it should. I would have watched the GSL if it was on youtube, because that's the one I know (don't know any other cup name), and maybe from then, I would have started to get interested. Starting with EWN (?) or IMBA (?), that's a bit harder than by a huge korean tournament.
I didn't start watching BW because of Idra. Actually, I never watched him at all, except in TSL. I got interested because, as a clueless noob, I found OSL final with people like Savior, Bisu or Oov. From then, I started to learn more. But it had to be OSL. Had it been BW equivalent of Zotac (?) cup, I wouldn't have bothered.
So my point is that if on top of that, you had to pay to watch EWN and IMBA (whatever they are), people like me would be even more unlikely to get interested. GOM locking the GSL and asking people to pay is hurting esports.
On February 10 2012 02:26 Slusher wrote: I would consider any reasonable fee. For me, and for a lot of people, the GSL is already PPV considering they offer no free version of the vods and the time of night they air. That said even for free I'm only interested in live events, I know my opinion isn't universal but I think now is as good a time as any to say how disappointed I was when Fuck Slasher was cancelled in favor of online tournaments.
My arguement against only paying for live events is TSL3. Would you have paid for it? I would have. High quality is what people should pay for; whether it is a LAN or online tournament.
Nope. I'll give you that the way they hyped each series up for at least a week before hand did make it significantly better than most online tournaments but I personally just can't get hype about stuff that does not appear live. Perfect example is the new code A second stream, which I've already gone into detail on the gom forum so I'll be breif.
I know the two guys are in the booths in the studio playing, just like the main stream players, but there is something so sterile about a guy back in the offices casting it with no camera shots of the players that I just can't get hype about it. I tell myself it's a live game but I just can't get into it, there is something about seeing/hearing the crowd, and seeing the players on camera that makes it so much better to me.
When you pay for UFC, WWE or any sport package, you know what you're getting. With eSports, you don't. Some events are great, and some have magnitudes of problems. Until there is a 95% gaurnatee of a consistent product, it's hard to ask for money like that.
I mean, I watch 15-20 hours of starcraft/week. I pay for GSL season tickets. But the fact is... I can't watch as much NFL football as I can starcraft. It boggles my mind that I can watch hours of NEW starcraft from top players EVERY DAY. There are more new SC2 matches I want to watch than I have time for.
I honestly do feel like I am getting far more than I am paying for. Well, maybe. I guess I don't know how much is being made off of ads. I'm assuming not very much.
Listen... I love all the constant SC2. The fact is though... it is almost too free. I am consuming massive amounts of content... far more time than I spend watching football(just because its only in the fall... and only 1 day/week). Either the streamers/organizers need to be making more on ads... or they do need to start charging.
I want esports to succeed and I'm not going to lie on this board and say that I wouldn't pay for MLG/IPL/etc. I would pay provided I get lifetime HD VoD access(that has an autoplay feature like GomTV, so I can turn it on and watch for multiple hours and not have to go hit 'play' between each match) and never any speed issues when watching a live stream.
So yeah, I've got cash in my pocket that I want to spend on quality SC2. To me though, I'm only going to pay for these if they have TOP players. There needs to be much more incentive for every single top korean to want to be in every single one of these leagues.
On February 10 2012 02:41 Brad wrote: When you pay for UFC, WWE or any sport package, you know what you're getting. With eSports, you don't. Some events are great, and some have magnitudes of problems. Until there is a 95% gaurnatee of a consistent product, it's hard to ask for money like that.
This is a pretty good point. Even if the fights suck, at least you're guaranteed a good production. SC2 productions have been hit or miss even (outside of GSL) within the same company (although the major ones have been a lot better as of late.)
On February 10 2012 01:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:20 MrCon wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
You sir are a huge troll bent on doing as much missinformation and spewing dumb false arguments everywhere. GSL stream is free, VOD's are not. You don't have to register on some obscure website to watch GSL ( u can log in with twitter/facebook) or MLG. I get that you don't like SC2 so just don't bother doing missinformation and ignore it. We don't really need a "huge fan" who can't pay 5$ for VOD's and can't be arsed to watch free streams even thou his so called heroes Boxer/nada are playing in those cups.
Foreginer cups actually are usually filled with nothing but VERY well know sc2 players. There are actually tons of threads about people complaining that other players don't get a chance to play in foreign cups due to the fact there are no free spots/qualificatins.
TL;DR Stop spreading false information, and if u don't like SC2 stop posting in SC2 General.
LOL. Hey dude, I've been there for four years and I have 35 times more post than you on this website. So maybe don't talk to me as if I just arrived there and knew nothing.
I don't say that the scene is this way or that way. I say that, as much as I have been caught in BW because precisely the biggest league were easy to access and free, I didn't get into watching SC2 because:
1- The biggest league is not free. Ok, maybe it is IF you register on GOMIdon'tknnowwhat and catch the exact time, and if you don't you won't find the VOD on youtube anyway.
2- It's not exciting to watch small leagues when you don't know the game well.
That's not misinformation, it's not true or false, it's just my experience. Maybe I am wrong, but still, I am not a SC2 fan, the scene didn't catch me, while it should. I would have watched the GSL if it was on youtube, because that's the one I know (don't know any other cup name), and maybe from then, I would have started to get interested. Starting with EWN (?) or IMBA (?), that's a bit harder than by a huge korean tournament.
I didn't start watching BW because of Idra. Actually, I never watched him at all, except in TSL. I got interested because, as a clueless noob, I found OSL final with people like Savior, Bisu or Oov. From then, I started to learn more. But it had to be OSL. Had it been BW equivalent of Zotac (?) cup, I wouldn't have bothered.
So my point is that if on top of that, you had to pay to watch EWN and IMBA (whatever they are), people like me would be even more unlikely to get interested. GOM locking the GSL and asking people to pay is hurting esports.
So you don't know anything about the SC2 scene. That's fine. Your opinion on it really has no value in this thread then.
Times have changed since OSL and Youtube VODs and that model doesn't work for SC2.
I think it would be too hard to get people to pay for sc2 on a more frequent basis because people expect free streams and it's hard to change that. I know for myself, I only pay for GSL because it's the only tourney I feel has the skill level and production that is worth my money. I know that if foreign tourneys made it ppv, I just wouldn't watch them, unless the foreign scene's skill drastically improved.
On February 10 2012 02:45 TBone- wrote: How will we know when this is viable to do? I mean I feel like if we did monetize to quickly we could burst.
It's not easy but organizations have or should have people who are capable of measuring the economic impact of making this decision. When they feel that cost of the lost total # of viewers on advertising/sponsorship and other costs (negative publicity) is less than the benefits of the increased revenue someone will pull the trigger. Too soon and yes that company WILL fail more times than not because its almost impossible to recover from such a move.
EPT
