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On February 10 2012 01:03 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 23:54 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 23:47 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:42 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote:
So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL)
- Nearly TV broadcast production levels
- Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year)
- Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc)
- The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing)
- The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here. You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread. On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote:
I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production. Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have: - Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem. So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity. I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate. The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money. I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray! I don't have a solution.
I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity.
They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2.
They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay.
They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament.
The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL.
The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past.
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On February 09 2012 23:46 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote:
The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them. Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets. I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
I will gladly pay for a good product and not pay for a bad product. For example, I really think last year the mlg's were not worth the hd streams. We saw around 10% of the games played, there was a lot of down time, I couldn't watch both halo, call of duty, and the starcraft tournament. When I went down to mlg providence I couldn't even find a decent spot to watch starcaft. I'd have to stand 200 feet away from the stage.
Now if we compare mlg providence to the nasl season 2 finals, we saw every match played from every game. The streams were really high quality, it was very comfortable too. The production was so much higher as well. You get this rushed feeling when watching mlg. They did a great job scheduling all the matches. Now I understand that running an nasl event is easier than an mlg event, but its to the point that because nasl did such a great job in my eyes, I'll pay for it. But the pro circuit was so unattractive to me I don't see why I should pay for it.
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On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote:
1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free.
GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience.
There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
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First of all we already have a PPV system with GomTV. Guess what, if you do not pay them you cannot even see low def VODs. And it works too.
Second please do not compare Stacraft2 to WWE, NBA, TNA, etc which are all American invented sport events that have 90% or more viewership in USA only. Show me instead a PPV show that is viewed worldwide so that we can compare it to Starcraft. Insisting on the above shows just indicates that you are ignorant.
LIke many people already said, we need quality before we can charge. And right now that quality is only given out by GomTV. MLG, IPL and the others are definitely getting better with time but they are not there yet.
It sees that LordJerith is just trying to put the cart before the horse here, and I am guessing (apologies if I am wrong) but he is looking at this from a team manager point of view where he wants his team to make money but that cannot happen if the tournaments do not make money in turn.
EDIT: sorry I meant free VODS not free Stream. Yes I can watch streams free but guess what it is 16hour time region ahead of me, so for what is worth the live might not even exist. For me GOMTV = VODS and those are not free.
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On February 10 2012 01:23 Petrina wrote:
First of all we already have a PPV system with GomTV. Guess what, if you do not pay them you cannot even see low def streams. And it works too.
Thats just not true. Anyone can watch GSL live for free.
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Calgary25963 Posts
On February 10 2012 01:15 Dantelew wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:03 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:54 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 23:47 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:42 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote:
So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL)
- Nearly TV broadcast production levels
- Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year)
- Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc)
- The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing)
- The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here. You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread. On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote:
I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production. Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have: - Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem. So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity. I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate. The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money. I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray! I don't have a solution. I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity. They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2. They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay. They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament. The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL. The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past.
I agree, it seems like the endgame here is that western Starcraft will die completely and GOM will be the only tournament left standing 
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I don't necessarily mind monetizing E-SPORTS, but to say that it's dead if monetization doesn't happen soon seems like some serious hyperbole to me. Granted, I imagine LordJerith has more insight into the matter than I do, but still...
Monetization only really becomes a problem when it's priced high, a la GSL. I can watch very little actual free content on GomTV, and (I believe) none of it recent enough to really matter. I don't have the money to pay $25 for a season ticket, no matter how good or numerous the games are. If I could buy a year-long ticket for the same price, I'd probably do so, but as it stands now the cost is too great, so I can't watch the games I want to. And I appreciate the free stream, but the time difference is such that it falls squarely on my sleeping time, so that is a no-go as well. /endrant
If companies want to monetize E-SPORTS, as they surely must, I'm all for it; just don't price it too high, or make the value proposition worth it.
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Honestly, when I watch an event I want little no no delays/downtime, casters that can actually speak and keep you interested without having to scream or force crappy jokes, and the top players. Currently only GOM provides this which is why I have always been willing to pay for the GSL. They have little downtime ( only occasional five minute breaks which are GREATLY needed for both the production crew and the viewer) all the casters are pretty solid and not confused, and most importantly, the VOD system is very easily navigable. MlG has way too much downtime, too much stuff in three days which is impossible to watch all of it and it's not even 1080p, it's more like 720p with terrible color balance. Dreamhack is worth paying for as it is an occasional event. But as mentioned above multiple times, the problem for esports is the lack of viewership numbers. UFC gets a couple million views with PPV. Sc2 specifically has abyssmal viewer numbers(60k viewers usually). LoL is much more massive and I wouldn't be surprised if that becomes the dominant game over the next few years.
Tldr: viewership numbers are the problem- along with overstauration
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On February 10 2012 01:26 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:15 Dantelew wrote:On February 10 2012 01:03 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:54 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 23:47 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:42 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote:
So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL)
- Nearly TV broadcast production levels
- Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year)
- Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc)
- The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing)
- The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here. You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread. On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote:
I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production. Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have: - Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem. So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity. I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate. The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money. I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray! I don't have a solution. I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity. They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2. They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay. They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament. The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL. The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past. I agree, it seems like the endgame here is that western Starcraft will die completely and GOM will be the only tournament left standing
Please not so pesimistic dear sir :D
If MLG/IPL/DH/IEM takes care of this fast enough and some of them won't it could be fine. DH and MLG living alongside would be no problemo. But all of them will be pretty hard on the viewership. I wouldn't pay XX$ times 4.
On February 10 2012 01:27 mrRoflpwn wrote:
Honestly, when I watch an event I want little no no delays/downtime, casters that can actually speak and keep you interested without having to scream or force crappy jokes, and the top players. Currently only GOM provides this which is why I have always been willing to pay for the GSL. They have little downtime ( only occasional five minute breaks which are GREATLY needed for both the production crew and the viewer) all the casters are pretty solid and not confused, and most importantly, the VOD system is very easily navigable. MlG has way too much downtime, too much stuff in three days which is impossible to watch all of it and it's not even 1080p, it's more like 720p with terrible color balance. Dreamhack is worth paying for as it is an occasional event. But as mentioned above multiple times, the problem for esports is the lack of viewership numbers. UFC gets a couple million views with PPV. Sc2 specifically has abyssmal viewer numbers(60k viewers usually). LoL is much more massive and I wouldn't be surprised if that becomes the dominant game over the next few years.
Tldr: viewership numbers are the problem- along with overstauration
At least LoLs business model attracts more chinese players :D
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On February 10 2012 01:26 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:15 Dantelew wrote:On February 10 2012 01:03 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:54 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 23:47 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:42 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote:
So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL)
- Nearly TV broadcast production levels
- Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year)
- Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc)
- The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing)
- The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here. You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread. On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote:
I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production. Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have: - Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem. So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity. I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate. The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money. I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray! I don't have a solution. I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity. They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2. They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay. They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament. The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL. The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past. I agree, it seems like the endgame here is that western Starcraft will die completely and GOM will be the only tournament left standing
Sound business vs Bad business sadly no major foreign tournament have shown to have a sound long term business and thats just sad. Stop hoping it gets bigger and spending more and spend what you can afford to. This industry will take time to grow it can't happen overnight so long term should be the goal not more viewers tomorrow
Prove me wrong please major foreign tournaments.
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On February 09 2012 23:36 Doodsmack wrote:
I think this community is spoiled in the sense that they've been given free stuff so far so they now expect it. But it's kind of pointless to argue against a PPV model if in fact the businesses involved in Esports will need it to stay afloat. If those businesses need it, they will eventually do it regardless of the level of complaining that goes on in forums. Pretending that you know which business model is best when you have no experience in Esports industry is just silly. Only the tournament organizers know, and like I said, they will switch to PPV if they need to. As they should.
Personally I think it's very reasonable to all tournaments to start charging for the HD live streams and HD VODs. GSL already does it, after all. We should appreciate the difficulty involved in producing a smooth 1080p stream with world-class players and casters by paying for it.
Only because they can. Best players, best production, and being the one to watch in sentiment. ALL others can't and will die save perahps a niche product like HSC. Husky gets 400,000 views on his videos for free I suspect those numbers will jump when people need thier SC2 fix and not watching GSL. But the bottom line is the market just can't support more than one with only 20,000-50,000 veiwers.
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solution: let the bubble pop.
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On February 10 2012 01:26 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:15 Dantelew wrote:On February 10 2012 01:03 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:54 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 23:47 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:42 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote:
So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL)
- Nearly TV broadcast production levels
- Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year)
- Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc)
- The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing)
- The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here. You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread. On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote:
I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production. Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have: - Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem. So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity. I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate. The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money. I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray! I don't have a solution. I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity. They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2. They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay. They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament. The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL. The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past. I agree, it seems like the endgame here is that western Starcraft will die completely and GOM will be the only tournament left standing
that's the fault of the players really, how many koreans would want to watch a foreign tournament for more than shits and giggles? it's completely one-way traffic right now.
foreigners were given a fresh slate after 10 years of korean BW dominance, and didn't even last a year.
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Calgary25963 Posts
On February 10 2012 01:33 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:26 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 01:15 Dantelew wrote:On February 10 2012 01:03 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:54 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 23:47 Chill wrote:On February 09 2012 23:42 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote:
So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL)
- Nearly TV broadcast production levels
- Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year)
- Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc)
- The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing)
- The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here. You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread. On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote:
I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production. Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have: - Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem. So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity. I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate. The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money. I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray! I don't have a solution. I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity. They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2. They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay. They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament. The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL. The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past. I agree, it seems like the endgame here is that western Starcraft will die completely and GOM will be the only tournament left standing that's the fault of the players really, how many koreans would want to watch a foreign tournament for more than shits and giggles? it's completely one-way traffic right now. foreigners were given a fresh slate after 10 years of korean BW dominance, and didn't even last a year.
lol. i cant even respnod to this.
ill say i disagree
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Well, I doubt taking out free streams is going to help build ESPORTS, as was already mentioned BW in Korea has worked for decade without directly monetizing the audience. And as Nazgul said, SC2 is hardly a sport like MMA, it's more like football/ice hockey.
It's sad that foreign events will have trouble getting top players in their events due to oversaturation. I'd love to see top tier Koreans in Assembly when I bought a ticket to go there, but then again if it overlaps with MLG/IPL/Dreamhack, overall quality of games will be lower.
By having a full-time job and other activities along with it, I don't have time nor energy to watch any other tournaments than GSL which I have paid (light ticket for a year) for. MLG/etc. might be on the list of interests if they are on weekends. I still chipped in for Homestory cup even though I barely had time to watch it, with Grubby's amazing commetating it was well worth it. I think I will rather subscribe to support an awesome individual player (White-RA) than a subpar tournament.
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I don't pay for any streams right now, but I think I would, and the one I would pay for is MLG.
-I don't like the interface for GSL, I'm not captivated by most Korean progamer personalities and I'm sorry but I just don't get Tastosis.
-IPL has nice graphics, but the matches are severly lacking hype because they are cast from replays, and the casters themselves seem like nice ppl, but they hardly seem able to get enthused themselves, the whole thing is so stale.
-EG masters cup is awesome, I love djWheat and I dig the clan wars, but it's hardly on at all.
-ESL is really good as well, but Bitterdam is either horribly awkward or embarresing to watch. I think those guys hate each other. Having said that, the IEMs are the most hype live competition outside of MLGs, and this makes it very fun to watch.
-NASL, was interested in season 1, but they seem to be suffering the same lack of hype problems that IPL are, as well as lacking professional casters (HIRE djWheat or Day9 or JPmcD or somebody who can speak intelligently and ammusingly with great ease PLEASE).
For me MLG last year had everything. The best presentation, the great casters, and most importantly the hype of a huge live event. It was a downer when there were huge gaps between games, but it was only a tiny issue when compared to the huge overall success.
Now I am worried by the turn MLG has taken away from live events. I have seen some of the qualifiers and they have not been hugely fun. Maybe the live events will still be fun, anyway I really not sure about what is going on with them at the moment.
So, yeah if all the events started charging a fee, then I'd consider buying MLG and possibly ESL... Do I think that TeamLiquid is ideally placed to act as middleman to offer a one off payment to be able to view HQ streams from all these top competitions? Yes I do, and I hope SOMEBODY else out there has had the same idea.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
Im all for paying to help out E-Sports, but alot of the viewers cant afford/willing to pay for the good quality streams anyway. I would guess way over 70% of the viewers of the GSL are watching the LQ free stream.
That said i think they should charge for 720-1080 (LAG FREE HAS TO BE LAG FREE) streaming, i always pay for ESL broadcasts of the there tournament, in my opinion they do it right, $5 £5 pricing for whole tournament HQ pass. Every tournament did that would appeal to more and more. You can't just smack a $20-30 price tag on every major tournament just because you can. You will destroy "E-Sports" as you say.
PS Dont forget theres more than just SC2 in E-Sports ^_^
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we all knew in our hearts that it was a bubble, didn't we? i mean, no one really expected an RTS to be the premier esport in the west.
sc2 rode the wave of it's hugely popular and enigmatic (to westerners) predecessor and came at a fortunate time when other esport titles were coming to the end of their days (cs, quake, war3), leaving the path clear for sc2 to take the front seat, temporarily.
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it helps if you explain why you disagree
ill go slightly more in-depth
my logical explanation is that people have finite time, and very few people want to watch anything less than the best. the way sc2 is designed is that high tier games tend to last longer and be more exciting, which is of course more attractive to the paying viewer.
unless you're disagreeing that koreans have dominated sc2 for quite some time now, it stands to reason that a foreign tournament with foreign players is going to be less than stellar.
also, although the sc2 scene in korea is not doing all that great, it still represents a very substantial portion of the sc2 viewerbase. the GSL is effectively getting revenue from both markets, while the foreign tournaments have to make do with only 1.
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The best way would be for all the big tournaments and leagues to come together and offer some sort of universal monthly/annual pay plan that pays for everyone's content for HD live stream/VOD.
Hahahahaha and world peace and no more hungry children in Africa too.
Either way low quailty live stream needs to stay, otherwise the fanbase will definitely shrink, the overall interest to play SC2 is already lessening among the normal players and more new competitive esport capable games will always get more attention.when they first get released(i.e DOTA2). Maybe certain tournaments will start catering specific games instead of all catering to SC2 and everyone gets a slice of the pie this way.
We have Korea's BW model to thank for SC2's esport success today and it certainly would NOT have happened if all those youtube game were taken down and private streams for live events were hunted down, which is what happens for big football/soccer streams now. Also all this pay per view service will never be able to flourish outside of NA/EU, the Asian market will never buy it unless it's cheap like a normal cable tv plan(i.e OGN/MBC). Even the Korean live events are free but that is also due to the big sponsors they could find for BW like Samsung and Korean Air for example.
Not everything should be free, but it needs to be within reason of the target audience.
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EPT
