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I paid around $125 for GSL last year and that doesn't even include everything. This year if you want the monthly premium, you pay $240 over a year and that doesn't include the team league. You can get it cheaper if you want to make a larger bulk payment, but I wasn't in a position to do that.
If every tournament started to charge $5-10, there's just no way I could justify that. I simply can't afford that on my budget and I'm sure many are in the same position as students.
In contrast, I pay $8-9 a month for streaming Netflix with tons of content that is constantly updated. That totals around $100 a year.
If every tournament started charging $5-10 as well as the high price (to me) of GSL, I'd probably just end up dropping it altogether. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy watching and don't want to stop, but how much can they charge and keep a decent viewer base?
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On February 10 2012 01:20 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote:
1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously. GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
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Another problem these foreign events have is Koreans. Everyone talking about UFC, well would you pay to watch an adult beating on a child? That's what Koreans bring.
And without Koreans, it's just children fighting, Again, not worth it. GSL will be only game in town PPV.
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I'm not going to pretend I know anything about running a business or a professional SC2 team or a high profile tournament. I do know that as a fan of metal, I pay a lot of money to go to concerts each year. I think I saw about 15 concerts in 2011. Every show I see is about $20-30 and then I often drive hours out of my way to go see a show.
My point is, if you as a member of this community, love StarCraft 2 or League of Legends or Dota or Quake or whatever, you should be able to support your hobby. There is literally no hobby out there right now that is free. We in the StarCraft 2 community have been lucky in that there is so much free content. But in the end, you need money to keep things running.
I love MLG. I love Dreamhack. I'll vote with my dollars to support these events. $35 for a WEEKEND'S worth of entertainment? No problem. I've spent $50 for 3 hours at a concert. Why this is such a ludicrous amount to people I can't understand. If you truely love StarCraft 2, you can probably afford to spend a measly $50 or whatever it is for an MLG Gold Pass for what, 9 months of content? Or if you're cheap, Homestory Cup was $5 for HD!
Whether you like it or not the reality is that the players, admins, tournament organizers, teams, and everyone else related to a StarCraft 2 tournament needs money in some capacity. Hell, just to play SC2 you need to drop like $40-50. Imagine the costs of shipping in that huge ass satellite truck that MLG has. Or instantly replacing all the broken computers in the case of IEM Kiev.
If you love this sport, this scene, support it. A couple bucks will probably go a long way. And think about it, even if you don't watch the entire tournament, you probably got $20 of enjoyment out of it anyways right?
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You know, just thinking of an alternate point of view here. Some of this would have to be the game developers responsibility wouldn't it?
I'm almost finding myself on the Kespa side of the fence here with the Kespa/Blizzard controversy around the release of SC2. Which is amazing because I was so stalwart in my opinion of Blizzard being right at the time.
Anyway, Blizzard no doubt wants SC2 to be a successful e-sport, they are pushing as hard as possible to make it the premier e-sport. But they are putting nothing in to it (besides balance and gameplay, but even then some can say they have failed in this regard) if all these tournament hosting companies are struggling so hard to make a buck, while Blizzard is even taking a cut, wouldn't it solely be the fault of Blizzard if these companies go under due to lack of monetization? I just can't see it any other way really.
Bottom line really is; if the companies want their games played at tournaments, and to be the hot hotness, they should offer up some cash to help these tournaments, not take a cut. It really is ridiculous. The free advertising alone that they are getting is absolutely ridiculous. In-fact they are getting paid to have their game advertised... Damnit... Blizzard is smart.
I'm really disliking Blizzard more and more as time goes on.
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On February 10 2012 01:48 tdt wrote:
Another problem these foreign events have is Koreans. Everyone talking about UFC, well would you pay to watch an adult beating on a child? That's what Koreans bring.
But would you pay to see not the highest level player compete? I know I wouldn't
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On February 10 2012 01:00 Dantelew wrote:
I think Chill is right when he says that people have grown to used to this charity model where theres so much content for free.
This thread seems to be a lot of people that demand free content, demand growth of the community and tournaments, want higher prize pools and want to see premium players with high quality production, and are throwing numbers and stats around with little true knowledge of whats going on behind the scenes, assuming that ads will just pay for it...
I really hate to be "that guy" and start bashing people, but a lot of the SC2 community has been way too spoiled with what they get. It seems that a lot of people think that all these production companies are basking in wealth and trying to scalp every customer they can for every dollar possible, but the truth of the matter is, businesses can only lose money or break even for so long before they call it quits and pack it in.
A lot of people hear the word Monetizing and immediately scream betrayal and backstab, that's fine, keep believing that but just don't be surprised when slowly over the years, content becomes less and less, and esports becomes a fad that a small group of people think back and reminisce about. This business model we have right now just doesn't last forever.
Anyone that argues that NBA or NFL is free, well... Do you pay for cable or satellite? Then you pay for channels, and channels pay for broadcasting rights.
The idea that anything is free is absurd, but so many people in this community want to have their cake and eat it too. Pony up and support the products you enjoy, and growth will occur. Bottom line is, if you don't want or care about growth of esports and just want to enjoy it as is, keep doing what you're doing, it won't last forever.
(Just as a side note, im not accusing everyone of never paying a dime for anything ever, and this problem isn't exclusive to the SC2 community either)
Let's be careful with our rhetoric here. The reason people don't want to give money has nothing to do with being lazy, spoiled or complacent and everything to do with the fact that most people only have so much money to spend on mental health-type activities like watching casts and playing games. I don't give money to the American Cancer Society either, but that isn't because I like cancer or because I'm not scared to death of getting it in the next 10-30 years. It's because I don't have that much money, but I do have a wife, a kid, another in planning and a desire to use my money to make my life possible. I don't even own a home and have no financial capability of doing so in the near future. I'm greatful that SC2 casts are often free - but that's only because that means I get to watch them, not because it saves me money doing so.
Let's also be clear about who is acting more like a charity here - only one side of this exchange wants money. The content provided here has value, and I think they deserve more money and attention, but a lot of times viewers like myself can't afford to pay for something they can get somewhere else for free. This is where people want to see advertising step in because advertisers have money that they're not using on kids, food, etc. and desire exposure. It seems like a good match that doesn't stretch my already thin budget.
I don't pay for cable to watch TV, but I do pay for internet - the ISPs don't pay streamers the same way, sure, but that's not a fault of my side of the arrangement. I still pay for the ability to access streams.
You - and the community in general - need to be careful about how pushy you get in charging people. Some people would love to pay, some people can't. It isn't because they're "spoiled" - it's because money is tight. You may recall from your own experiences that nobody ever seems to have enough to cover the basic things you'd like to do these days. Having a computer, internet, and SC2 already makes people here spend more money on entertainment than many are capable of.
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Paying for HD quality is something from the past.
Technology advances and people don't just accept some free stream anymore that has sucky quality (I know tons of people that don't watch GSL cuz of the quality).
I would prefer a free HD stream but with commercials for every1.
If they have some decent commercials and not just the same 5 for 50 times per day commercials aren't even that bad.
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On February 10 2012 01:49 CPTBadAss wrote:
If you love this sport, this scene, support it. A couple bucks will probably go a long way.
Yes yes yes. These are the best two sentences in the whole thread.
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On February 10 2012 01:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:20 MrCon wrote:On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote:
1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously. GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 >< Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM. Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't. I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later. That I can agree with 
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I dislike the idea of PPV for SC2 because there is a lack of additional content. I have no problem with the idea in general, though have rarely paid for PPV. Like Nazgul said, there needs to be a reason for PPV, for UFC that is the opportunity to see the players. I think the question for making a business case for PPV is what can tournaments offer to viewers that justifies the additional charge. Personally, I pay for the MLG pass because of the higher quality but more importantly, the 4 games at the same time. I believe it is these supporting assets that can offer profits to these companies.
As I've only gone to one live tourney (MLG Raleigh), I'll use that as my comparative to a sport w/ free viewership & paid attendance (say NFL). There is just not much that MLG sells to spectators and viewers outside of content (some merchandise, bit of food). But suppose you got to a football game, jerseys for the home team, all sorts of random keepsakes, food (to get food at Raleigh, better off leaving the convention center). I think these tournies need to look at how so many professional sports can coexist and be profitable and find ways to better monetize esports.
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On February 10 2012 01:49 CPTBadAss wrote:
I'm not going to pretend I know anything about running a business or a professional SC2 team or a high profile tournament. I do know that as a fan of metal, I pay a lot of money to go to concerts each year. I think I saw about 15 concerts in 2011. Every show I see is about $20-30 and then I often drive hours out of my way to go see a show.
My point is, if you as a member of this community, love StarCraft 2 or League of Legends or Dota or Quake or whatever, you should be able to support your hobby. There is literally no hobby out there right now that is free. We in the StarCraft 2 community have been lucky in that there is so much free content. But in the end, you need money to keep things running.
I love MLG. I love Dreamhack. I'll vote with my dollars to support these events. $35 for a WEEKEND'S worth of entertainment? No problem. I've spent $50 for 3 hours at a concert. Why this is such a ludicrous amount to people I can't understand. If you truely love StarCraft 2, you can probably afford to spend a measly $50 or whatever it is for an MLG Gold Pass for what, 9 months of content? Or if you're cheap, Homestory Cup was $5 for HD!
Whether you like it or not the reality is that the players, admins, tournament organizers, teams, and everyone else related to a StarCraft 2 tournament needs money in some capacity. Hell, just to play SC2 you need to drop like $40-50. Imagine the costs of shipping in that huge ass satellite truck that MLG has. Or instantly replacing all the broken computers in the case of IEM Kiev.
If you love this sport, this scene, support it. A couple bucks will probably go a long way. And think about it, even if you don't watch the entire tournament, you probably got $20 of enjoyment out of it anyways right?
I would much rather spend $50 dollars on a concert that I get to go to, be social and have 5-6 hours worth of solid memories with my friends, than pay $35 on a weekend ticket of MLG and sit infront of my computer for 30 hours and try and watch all of the content possible. $50 for 3 hours of premium live content that you'll remember for a very long time has a far greater value than $35 dollars for as much content as MLG can ram down your throat over the course of a weekend (which by the way is aired on freestream the entire time too).
My whole stance is that poor business design has enabled people to get the content they want without paying a dime for it, and when people are given the option to pay for content, or watch it for free, I think we all know what people choose. Since people have been given this option for so long, when companies start suggesting that people now need to pay, its veiwed as a betrayal to the community, theyre boycotted, and then forced to offer it for free, or go away. GOM gives out enough content that you can veiw it in a sitting, catch up, follow the story lines and easily choose which players you want to see. I have no interest in sitting down 3 days later and trying to watch a whole MLG, the incentive is just not there, I either watch it when its on or not at all. Its simply too much, too fast, and of little relavence once its over to justify a form of investment in not only money but also time. If MLG managed to create a league format with compairable quality and importance as their tournaments, but allows me to watch and CARE about the content at a resonable rate, people would probably pay.
To go back to the NASL model that I referenced before, I'm just not that interested in catching up on Week 4, Day 3, Match 6, when i still have 2 other Weeks to watch, and we're about to be faced with 6 more Weeks to watch, I dont have that time, and these matches just don't mean enough to me to justify any investment, let alone my time (which is more important). Its just bad business.
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I pay to watch the top players competing in a consistent and reliable tournament or show. Today, that tournament is GSL. I would never pay to watch NA or NA/EU-only (something like NASL). OTOH, I don't pay for GSTL because of casters (moletrap - wolf and khaldor are okay). So it's just a matter of taste I guess.
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I think it was Nazgul that said that PPV works because its content is rare, but basically this is why GOM business (seems to) work. Ok, once in a blue moon you can see MVP in some foreign tourney, but mostly you'll see him once or twice a month in the GSL, and that's all. Same for most of the top korean players, they're pretty rare.
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On February 10 2012 01:51 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:00 Dantelew wrote:
I think Chill is right when he says that people have grown to used to this charity model where theres so much content for free.
This thread seems to be a lot of people that demand free content, demand growth of the community and tournaments, want higher prize pools and want to see premium players with high quality production, and are throwing numbers and stats around with little true knowledge of whats going on behind the scenes, assuming that ads will just pay for it...
I really hate to be "that guy" and start bashing people, but a lot of the SC2 community has been way too spoiled with what they get. It seems that a lot of people think that all these production companies are basking in wealth and trying to scalp every customer they can for every dollar possible, but the truth of the matter is, businesses can only lose money or break even for so long before they call it quits and pack it in.
A lot of people hear the word Monetizing and immediately scream betrayal and backstab, that's fine, keep believing that but just don't be surprised when slowly over the years, content becomes less and less, and esports becomes a fad that a small group of people think back and reminisce about. This business model we have right now just doesn't last forever.
Anyone that argues that NBA or NFL is free, well... Do you pay for cable or satellite? Then you pay for channels, and channels pay for broadcasting rights.
The idea that anything is free is absurd, but so many people in this community want to have their cake and eat it too. Pony up and support the products you enjoy, and growth will occur. Bottom line is, if you don't want or care about growth of esports and just want to enjoy it as is, keep doing what you're doing, it won't last forever.
(Just as a side note, im not accusing everyone of never paying a dime for anything ever, and this problem isn't exclusive to the SC2 community either) Let's be careful with our rhetoric here. The reason people don't want to give money has nothing to do with being lazy, spoiled or complacent and everything to do with the fact that most people only have so much money to spend on mental health-type activities like watching casts and playing games. I don't give money to the American Cancer Society either, but that isn't because I like cancer or because I'm not scared to death of getting it in the next 10-30 years. It's because I don't have that much money, but I do have a wife, a kid, another in planning and a desire to use my money to make my life possible. I don't even own a home and have no financial capability of doing so in the near future. I'm greatful that SC2 casts are often free - but that's only because that means I get to watch them, not because it saves me money doing so. Let's also be clear about who is acting more like a charity here - only one side of this exchange wants money. The content provided here has value, and I think they deserve more money and attention, but a lot of times viewers like myself can't afford to pay for something they can get somewhere else for free. This is where people want to see advertising step in because advertisers have money that they're not using on kids, food, etc. and desire exposure. It seems like a good match that doesn't stretch my already thin budget. I don't pay for cable to watch TV, but I do pay for internet - the ISPs don't pay streamers the same way, sure, but that's not a fault of my side of the arrangement. I still pay for the ability to access streams. You - and the community in general - need to be careful about how pushy you get in charging people. Some people would love to pay, some people can't. It isn't because they're "spoiled" - it's because money is tight. You may recall from your own experiences that nobody ever seems to have enough to cover the basic things you'd like to do these days. Having a computer, internet, and SC2 already makes people here spend more money on entertainment than many are capable of.
You and I are in the same boat, I have a child, a job that doesnt pay extremely well, I own no home. I pay for GSL and thats about it, I watch streams that are free and get enjoyment out of them, but first person streams of people that are laddering are free because they dont have any value.
The Western world is overpriveledged and spoiled. There once was a mentality of working hard for what you have, it's not there anymore. People want want want want want. We're greedy. If you have a young family and times are tight, you need to make sacrifices, I pay for GSL because I work my ass off to give my son what he needs first, and pay my bills second, and then I come third. I get value and enjoyment out of things where I can, but if I can't afford something, I don't steal it, and I certainly dont expect it to be given to me for free. T
The real issue at hand is that it IS and HAS been given out for free for so long that now companies are saying "well, shit we're not really making money here, so you guys have to pay or we're done". And everyone will cry once all the free content dies out, and are forced to pay for what has become sustainable.
Life sucks man, but I know what it's like, and you do too.. My real point is that a lot of people dont, and go through a large portion of their life demanding that everythings given to them on a silver platter. I see it all the time with younger kids, with people I work with, the people I went to school with.. And this topic pretty much sums that mentality up.
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Less content, and paid-for instead of free? Fine. The market is flooded with so much stuff already anyways (I'm glad IGN turned their spam broadcasts down a notch.) I for one wouldn't mind ponying up for some solid content that one can really look forward to, instead of mindless turning on streams that no longer stand out because there's just too much of it.
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PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
/rant :p
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What I find weird.. Who did from the very beginning good Job with SC2?
Not surprising:
IEM --->
Years of experience, they did not "crumble" under the suddenly giant SC2 crowd (like MLG).
Their production is not overly fancy, but it's working (remember NASL S1? :p).
They were there from the very start (remember IPL S1 and 2 until they finally got to business with S3?).
Their only fault was probably not hyping themselves enough so they now look kinda small when compared to MLG which fixed it's problems and did the whole hype thing way better.
Surprising:
BIG LANS-->
Dreamhack/Assembly/Kopenhagen/Others I forgot...
These events just "worked". For some reason these LANS could deliver and in the case of Dreamhack still do deliver a better E-Sports event than the E-Sports organisations that actually just live from the tournaments they host. Strange isn't it?
Others?
MLG? Got overwhelmed and acted sloooooow when it came to rulechanges and all that stuff. Looks promising in the future tho (aside from extended series  ).
NASL? Wanted to much and didn't/couldn't/wouldn't deliver... Nowadays just looks very, uhm, "average"?.
IPL? Needed an eternity to "get off" and just seemed to play it too save? They basically were lucky that MLG/NASL failed so hard in the beginning..
The Future/Present?
The new shit are TEAMLEAGUES!.. Again there are to many cooks at the cake.. So we got IPL, NASL, EG and wtf do I know who else... Hint: This was, what IPL or NASL should have done from the beginning, they should never have tried to fight IEM + MLG + Major Lans + GSL at "single" Tournaments... They learned this a lil late and we got the same problem all over again.
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I think another big problem that hasn't been touched on I believe regarding this situation is the way blizzard don't support most of their tournament. They requires tournaments with over $5k prizepool to give them 50% of ad revenue and they do a terrible job at advertising their tournament.
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EPT
