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On February 10 2012 02:54 Swiv wrote:
i think monetizing sc2 should be achiveved by aquiring more viewers rather than by squeezing out the money of the existing viewers
Completely agree. If you charge more, you have to give more. Not just charge more for the same stuff that we're used to seeing. If i'm going to pay ppv style for HD streams of Mlg etc... every game I watch better be some revolutionary shit.
Basically, if you're going to make me pay more, you had better guarantee that it's worth it by paying players more to attract the best talent and the best of skill, beyond what we already have seen. I'm not gona pay for more pixels.
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you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene.
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On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote:
you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
I doubt tournaments and blizzard would want to give up their power like that.
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On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote:
you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene.
I don't know a single person who would pay 150 dollars/year for SC2 content.
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i think when the sponsors such as a company like target(cause i cant think of any other) comes out and they sponosor an event. dont you think the event will have enough money and be sustained without revanue from viewers
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On February 10 2012 03:04 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote:
you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene. I don't know a single person who would pay 150 dollars/year for SC2 content.
ever checked the GOM tv prizes? 
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On February 10 2012 03:06 zul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:04 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote:
you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene. I don't know a single person who would pay 150 dollars/year for SC2 content. ever checked the GOM tv prizes?
And then you add on 25$ for nasl and I'm not familiar with mlg's costs.
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There is still a lot of growing that needs to occur. Many gamers are coming out of the wood work but it may be too soon to look at applying a "PPV" model. I think that would result in having a lot of new comers drop off the radar completely. More viewings would equal more revenue, perhaps the focus should remain on further promoting events and perhaps looking at the "Barcrafts" to assist in expanding its markets. As an SC players we know what happens when you get to greedy 
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On February 10 2012 02:20 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote:
PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
/rant :p I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.
You're asking for too much money for too little content. You can't ask for $25 for just one weekend and expect that you'll make a huge profit. The only people that would pay for that, already do.
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On February 10 2012 02:57 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 02:54 Swiv wrote:
i think monetizing sc2 should be achiveved by aquiring more viewers rather than by squeezing out the money of the existing viewers Completely agree. If you charge more, you have to give more. Not just charge more for the same stuff that we're used to seeing. If i'm going to pay ppv style for HD streams of Mlg etc... every game I watch better be some revolutionary shit. Basically, if you're going to make me pay more, you had better guarantee that it's worth it by paying players more to attract the best talent and the best of skill, beyond what we already have seen. I'm not gona pay for more pixels.
Quite frankly, you're acting way too entitled. The stuff you're used to seeing for free costs a lot of money to produce and they're not making a profit. Not only that, even though you're used to watching it for free, it does have a value that justifies them charging us for it. You can't demand that a business provide you with a service that isn't financially viable for the business.
On another note, this thread has motivated me to go to a Gamestop and get a yearly MLG gold membership. I also paid for the GSL yearly ticket. I think anyone else who values professional SC2 should also contribute some money for what they watch.
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People can talk ads all they want, but are the revenues generated through that actually enough to cover all the costs of production, the (sometimes very high) price-money and still leave enough behind to get a good return on investment? That will actually decide whether the SC2-proscene has any chance of survival in the long run. The problem is that they target an audience that feels entitled to get just about anything for free, so I doubt selling tickets of any kind will ever be a major part of the income.
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On February 10 2012 03:16 Lann555 wrote:
People can talk ads all they want, but are the revenues generated through that actually enough to cover all the costs of production, the (sometimes very high) price-money and still leave enough behind to get a good return on investment? That will actually decide whether the SC2-proscene has any chance of survival in the long run. The problem is that they target an audience that feels entitled to get just about anything for free, so I doubt selling tickets of any kind will ever be a major part of the income.
There is no ROI
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On February 10 2012 03:06 zul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:04 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote:
you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene. I don't know a single person who would pay 150 dollars/year for SC2 content. ever checked the GOM tv prizes?
GOM is undeniably the highest level of play and competition, they have earned a right to charge for their service. Not to mention their quality is miles above most other tournaments. Also they offer a free stream and youre allowed to play monthly, no where near 150 dollars. I don't have to pay fees to watch football and basketball yet I'm fairly sure those organizations are making money.
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I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
Too many people, even a few on TL, think anything that exists to make money is inherently evil and should be avoided. It's immature and adolescent reasoning, that the things they love should be free to them. Esports will NEVER SUCCEEDED ANYWHERE, as long as people aren't willing to spend money on it. Liquid Tyler often brings this up, but it never really gets talked about. People need to loosen the purse strings a bit.
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Most people know that the age group for sc2 is probably 13-25 is the biggest group. Mostly students. Now take those numbers, how students always have an extra $20-40? How many students have the option to spend $20-40 on events instead of buying food or paying for gas? How many students are willing to spend an extra $20-40 a month on starcraft events via PPV? I'm content for paying for 1 at and thats a whole yearly payment, mostly money I received for xmas. GSL is the only one that is doing this and not failing, why? Because they know we will buy the tickets and that we get $200 worth of content over a whole year, now with how many events are I think it would be best to offer free HQ for foreigner tournies, and charge $5 for vods, or do what IEM does which will charge 5 euros for HQ for a tourny for 3 days. Now 5 euros for 3 days is pretty managable as a college student. But I usually end up watching the regular SQ. The first foreign company to do this will ultimately fail because their target group won't be willing to spend that money every month for mediocre games/casters. With GSL they have the line up, and a whole system for x amount of months. Kinda like with what NASL did, the first season was ok, the second was :S, and who knows about the 3rd season, I don't give them past 4 seasons before its ultimately gone. Charging your biggest demographic this amount of money everymonth will eventually in most cases will ultimately drain the person of funds they would normally use for something else, or to buy a ticket where you get xx amount of content over xx amount of months. Organizations talking about this wanting to charge $20 for an event aka MLG, it would be cheaper for ppl to buy their shitty gold passes just for the HQ, and ppl who used to buy the $11.99 silver 3 month pass for HQ wouldn't pay $20 an event. Companies even thinking about doing this are probably aren't going to succeed. and GSL will be the only one left like Chill said.
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On February 10 2012 02:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 02:20 Ucs wrote:On February 10 2012 01:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:On February 10 2012 01:20 MrCon wrote:On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote:
1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously. GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 >< Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM. Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't. I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later. You sir are a huge troll bent on doing as much missinformation and spewing dumb false arguments everywhere. GSL stream is free, VOD's are not. You don't have to register on some obscure website to watch GSL ( u can log in with twitter/facebook) or MLG. I get that you don't like SC2 so just don't bother doing missinformation and ignore it. We don't really need a "huge fan" who can't pay 5$ for VOD's and can't be arsed to watch free streams even thou his so called heroes Boxer/nada are playing in those cups. Foreginer cups actually are usually filled with nothing but VERY well know sc2 players. There are actually tons of threads about people complaining that other players don't get a chance to play in foreign cups due to the fact there are no free spots/qualificatins. TL;DR Stop spreading false information, and if u don't like SC2 stop posting in SC2 General. LOL. Hey dude, I've been there for four years and I have 35 times more post than you on this website. So maybe don't talk to me as if I just arrived there and knew nothing. I don't say that the scene is this way or that way. I say that, as much as I have been caught in BW because precisely the biggest league were easy to access and free, I didn't get into watching SC2 because: 1- The biggest league is not free. Ok, maybe it is IF you register on GOMIdon'tknnowwhat and catch the exact time, and if you don't you won't find the VOD on youtube anyway. 2- It's not exciting to watch small leagues when you don't know the game well. That's not misinformation, it's not true or false, it's just my experience. Maybe I am wrong, but still, I am not a SC2 fan, the scene didn't catch me, while it should. I would have watched the GSL if it was on youtube, because that's the one I know (don't know any other cup name), and maybe from then, I would have started to get interested. Starting with EWN (?) or IMBA (?), that's a bit harder than by a huge korean tournament. I didn't start watching BW because of Idra. Actually, I never watched him at all, except in TSL. I got interested because, as a clueless noob, I found OSL final with people like Savior, Bisu or Oov. From then, I started to learn more. But it had to be OSL. Had it been BW equivalent of Zotac (?) cup, I wouldn't have bothered. So my point is that if on top of that, you had to pay to watch EWN and IMBA (whatever they are), people like me would be even more unlikely to get interested. GOM locking the GSL and asking people to pay is hurting esports.
The fact that you haven't gotten into the SC2 scene is exactly the point.
People don't earn in revenue much, if any, money from people simply watching. You are essentially saying you would get into SC2 if it was free, but what value does that add to the scene in terms of monetization? Because you aren't willing to pay for any streams, there is no way to earn anything off your viewership. Adverts won't make nearly enough due to the fact that there isn't a critical mass of viewers, adding one or two more isn't going to change it. There needs to be a revolution, and I don't see that huge revolution coming.
Even if you got into the SC2 scene, all it would add is another viewership number, that's it. There is no money to be made here. This is why SC2 as an e-sport is in a lot of trouble right now, and because there is a large demographic of people who either cannot or will not pay for content, they are essentially irrelevant to the discussion of monetization. I would say they are relevant if they can bring in enough new fans to keep the ball rolling a-la social media style models, but I don't see that happening.
The bottom line here is adding new viewers is not enough, unless we start to hit in the millions of unique viewers. It doesn't matter how many new people are attracted to the scene because it won't hit that critical mass. The scene can try to go for broke and aim for that; it may even succeed. But if the scene does aim for this and misses, the whole thing is going to crash and burn oh so very fast.
The only other solution is consolidation on your small, niche market. There are people like me who are willing to pay for exceptional content, and as a lot of people mentioned here already, GSL seems to have gotten it right. It's a league format with a good amount of content, spread out over a number of days that deliver good games with good production values. I think barely enough people have showed that they are both willing and able to pay for that, if it is profitable or not is another matter entirely.
Bottom line:
-GOM has put together a high value-for-dollar product that people seem to be willing to pay for.
-Other tournaments have huge viewership numbers.
-High viewership alone accomplishes nothing, since even if you make fans of the scene, sport, or whatever, it generates no money from them, and perhaps it is a given that such people cannot because they cannot afford it or are unwilling to pay.
-Viewership is nowhere near the critical mass (and won't be in the foreseeable future) to make ad-revenue only style models or social media models work.
-Other substitutes (e.g. netflix, live events in local areas, etc.) exist that many people are more willing to spend money on and feel they get more value for. [This in part is what makes the scene niche. You have to really love it to spend anything on it, right?]
Some leagues will just have to die off, some players retire and some teams disband. The scene will consolidate, and maybe the western scene will die since no league has been able to put together something as attractive as GOM has. There may be room for 2 big tournaments, perhaps, at most, and GOM I think has already solidified itself as one of them. At this point there is no easy solution for the scene as a whole.
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On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote:
you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene.
So what are Pride, NAGA, KOTC, Strikeforce, Bellator Fighting Championships, DREAM, USGrappling, Grappler's Quest, UWC, etc. etc. etc.
There are TONS of MMA leagues, just because you only know about UFC doesn't make that the only one.
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Quite frankly, you're acting way too entitled. The stuff you're used to seeing for free costs a lot of money to produce and they're not making a profit. Not only that, even though you're used to watching it for free, it does have a value that justifies them charging us for it. You can't demand that a business provide you with a service that isn't financially viable for the business.
On another note, this thread has motivated me to go to a Gamestop and get a yearly MLG gold membership. I also paid for the GSL yearly ticket. I think anyone else who values professional SC2 should also contribute some money for what they watch.
How much do you expect people to pay though? Monthly GSL Premium is $240 per year without the team league. You can cut that down by going with the light pass and skipping all the mini-tournaments and benefits like dual-stream. If all the other tournaments started charging $5-10 for a weekend pass, that adds up to a ridiculous amount of money per year for people on a budget, like students.
Like I mentioned before, I pay $100 for an entire year of Netflix streaming with more content than I can hope to watch.
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On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
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Hmmm I don't see how that's a problem. I've never paid a penny for anything related to this game apart from buying the game itself, and never will either. Hence no one needs to do that and it's their decision and so on. I definitely think it's wrong to charge money to watch a game I've bought so I'll never pay anything for it, and I've had this stance for ever
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EPT
