EPTPretty cool to see how these maps play out at all levels of play. TDA is looking pretty suave.
31,500 Replays - A look at balance in Starcraft II - Page 5
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Mortal
2943 Posts
Pretty cool to see how these maps play out at all levels of play. TDA is looking pretty suave. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
I am surprised about antiga though, I would have figured that would be more PvT favored. | ||
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Splynn
United States225 Posts
Great work compiling all of this data, and thanks for all of the content in general from Playhem. | ||
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Balgrog
United States1221 Posts
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
You have to look at when the game ended (early game, mid game, late game) and the relative skill level of players (low-masters vs koreans like Violet or Zenex players means absolutely nothing, low masters will have 5% winrate on any map) Thanks for this regardless though, nice statistics. | ||
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cjin
181 Posts
On February 04 2012 14:57 godulous wrote: Tal'Darim Altar LE get's a special shout out for being possibly the most balanced map currently in our pool, it scored nearly 50% win rates for every match up and overall race win rates. I have to disagreee with this. The most balanced map is edit: mistake in my calculations (damn copy/paste) MLG metalopolis and Tal'Darim Altar LE are tied #1 You are making mistake of thinking closest to 50% is the most balanced, when you really should be thinking that closest to average win% of the matchup is most balanced. Also consider the more further win% is from average, more meaningful it is. So you should get something like ABS((TvPa-TvPm)^2)+ABS((PvZa-TvZm)^2)+ABS((ZvTa-ZvTm)^2) where TvPa is average win% for TvP and TvPm is the win% for map and so on. Lowest score map wins. Think about situation where for example we have start that gives 90% winrate for some matchup. Only way to get even close 50% winrate for that matchup is to make teh map hevily unbalanced for other end. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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godulous
United States337 Posts
On February 04 2012 16:57 cjin wrote: Think about situation where for example we have start that gives 90% winrate for some matchup. Only way to get even close 50% winrate for that matchup is to make teh map hevily unbalanced for other end. That was the whole point of this thread. Once you consider a map as one of the dials you can tweak in balancing the game, you can fine tune things like averages that aren't 50% (which they should ideally be). In that case, a 'heavily unbalanced map' by your standards would be a good thing. If unit abilities and build times/costs can be adjusted to correct win rates, why can't maps? On February 04 2012 17:00 T.O.P. wrote: How about only taking top 8 of each playhem and analyzing those replays. I'll see if I can do this tomorrow and post my findings (though the sample size will be much smaller). | ||
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Selendis
Australia509 Posts
On February 04 2012 14:57 godulous wrote: Highest winrate opening build order for each race across all maps/matchups [Protoss] Pylon, Gateway, Gateway, Pylon - 116 occurences / 62% winrate That BO looks a lot like a proxygate lol. | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
Also that Terran opening seems either 1/1/1 vP, reactor hellion vZ and banshees vT. Of course should take these (as with all statistics) with a pinch of salt, but it's fun if nothing else. | ||
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VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
 . I wish tournaments adjusted the map pool away from certain maps that are considered imbalanced but with such a large sample size tournaments can naturally do this while being nearly entirely subjective. hats off to Playhem ;D | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On February 04 2012 16:57 cjin wrote: I have to disagreee with this. The most balanced map is edit: mistake in my calculations (damn copy/paste) MLG metalopolis and Tal'Darim Altar LE are tied #1 You are making mistake of thinking closest to 50% is the most balanced, when you really should be thinking that closest to average win% of the matchup is most balanced. Also consider the more further win% is from average, more meaningful it is. So you should get something like ABS((TvPa-TvPm)^2)+ABS((PvZa-TvZm)^2)+ABS((ZvTa-ZvTm)^2) where TvPa is average win% for TvP and TvPm is the win% for map and so on. Lowest score map wins. Think about situation where for example we have start that gives 90% winrate for some matchup. Only way to get even close 50% winrate for that matchup is to make teh map hevily unbalanced for other end. I'm sorry, I believe your logic is flawed here. You don't want to be closer to the average winrate of the matchup. This is relating it to other maps. This is unimportant. What matters are the races and how they interact on a single map. How they interact on other maps is irrelevant. What you ideally want is a map that has a 50% winrate across the board, because regardless of current trends in balance, what you want is balance on any given map. If that map is balanced, who cares if the overall average protoss winrate in the matchup of PvZ is 55% for example? You don't want the map to show 55% in that winrate, you still want it to show 50% in that winrate so that you have a balanced match to play. | ||
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cjin
181 Posts
On February 04 2012 17:02 godulous wrote: That was the whole point of this thread. Once you consider a map as one of the dials you can tweak in balancing the game, you can fine tune things like averages that aren't 50% (which they should ideally be). In that case, a 'heavily unbalanced map' by your standards would be a good thing. If unit abilities and build times/costs can be adjusted to correct win rates, why can't maps? Blizzard is the one making changes to unit abilities and build times/costs, but not to tournament maps. If Blizzard makes a change into something, you would first need to play tons of games on new settings to even know how much effect the change had to win%. Also how you would count playerskill? if we could mesure playerskill with lets say 1-100 and average skill of T turns to be 60 and average skill of Z 40, if you would balance maps for 50% winrate it would mean that T60 would equal Z40 in win%, how far they would get in tournaments. and Z40 would crush kill ´n destroy T40 like a bug. Ideally T40 and Z40 should get just as far. | ||
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Popsicler
United States40 Posts
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Roxy
Canada753 Posts
 ...not surprised also, these statistics dont account for how gay tal'darim is for mirror matchups. | ||
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robih
Austria1086 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Lol, 2 gate proxy is best strat for toss, though I'm surprised how little it's used. Curious about how good FFE is. 33,000 GG's for 31,500 games too... so we have a lot of people who ragequit or leave I guess. | ||
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godulous
United States337 Posts
On February 04 2012 17:23 Roxy wrote: More losing records for protoss ...not surprised also, these statistics dont account for how gay tal'darim is for mirror matchups. If it makes you feel any better, Protoss have a 100% win rate on Tal'Darim in PvP. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
really cool post. I estimate I'm about 20-30 replays of those 31,500 I think I've played in probably a dozen or so playhems... :D | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
But I would be more interested in a breakdown by map of wins by race: <8 minute mark 8-14 minute mark 14-22 minute mark 22+ minutes for each match-up. I think in general, it would provide a lot more precise information. Just this i feel isnt really enough to determine much about "balance". | ||
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