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31,500 Replays - A look at balance in Starcraft II - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-04 08:33:32
February 04 2012 08:33 GMT
#101
interesting how protoss has the saddest winrates while at top top level protoss is doing decently well.
pzu
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden287 Posts
February 04 2012 08:34 GMT
#102
Thanks so much for presenting this, would never have guessed that taldarim was THAT balanced! gg
jubil
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2602 Posts
February 04 2012 08:41 GMT
#103
As interesting as the map stats are, I'm also intrigued by the word cloud. Looks like there's an interesting variety of bm going around, though the majority of talk is gm or neutral.

[image loading]

That doesn't even count offensive gg, and I'm sure I missed some words. : P
Marineking-Polt-Maru-Fantasy-Solar-Xenocider-Suppy fighting!
cmen15
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1519 Posts
February 04 2012 08:45 GMT
#104
This was really cool to look at, Thanks for sharing!!! : )
Greed leads to just about all losses.
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
February 04 2012 08:46 GMT
#105
TvP is favored on every map except one where its equal : (

I know these stats arent 100% accurate, but they are very similar to the communitys feelings on balance and the TLPD stats
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
Carras
Profile Joined August 2010
Argentina860 Posts
February 04 2012 08:49 GMT
#106
wow,great thread! i almost beat campanella when we played damm...

how come antiga is tvp favored ? would have never guessed that....
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-04 09:02:39
February 04 2012 08:57 GMT
#107
On February 04 2012 17:33 Ryuu314 wrote:
interesting how protoss has the saddest winrates while at top top level protoss is doing decently well.

if we take top top level to be code S, protoss is doing really really really badly.

A few fun facts:

A protoss hasnt been in a Code S final since May 2011. (in 3-4 months it will be a year)

in the last 2 GSL's of 2011, there were 2 protoss in the gsl ro8, when you combine the seasons (2 in one, none in the other), each season had 5 protoss in the ro32.

This season was a little better, 8 in the ro32 (thats 1/4 the players)

There have been 3 protoss GSL finalists (code s + special event + open seasons), compare that to 20 terrans and 11 zergs. (the chance of this happening has a decimal point followed by lots and lots of zeros - im embarrased to say ive forgotten how to figure it out)

So, in terms of statistics, at the top top level, protoss is doing unimaginably poorly, and has been since the beginning of GSL.

While statistics do not prove balance or imbalance in anyway, and i am not stating protoss is underpowered, the statement that protoss are doing decently well at top top level simply is as far from the truth as possible.
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
ClysmiC
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2192 Posts
February 04 2012 09:13 GMT
#108
How can anyone argue that this is not a good sample for analysis?

It is high-level players (I know they aren't S-Class, but they are high-level nonetheless) over THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of tournament games across all matchups and maps. Maybe this doesn't say a whole lot about balance in the GSL, but it certainly indicates the balance in general.
ceaRshaf
Profile Joined August 2009
Romania4926 Posts
February 04 2012 09:17 GMT
#109
I feel so sad for protoss from those statistics. And after all the hurdle and it being the worst race on all maps the only successful build it is the two gate lol.

Sad Zealot is sad.
Mess with the best, die like the rest.
Swiv
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany3674 Posts
February 04 2012 09:18 GMT
#110
lol at offgate cheese winrate. protos... :D
[_] Terran [_] Zerg [_] Protoss [X] Random ------- Fantasy - hyvaa - sOs
Proseat
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Germany5113 Posts
February 04 2012 09:19 GMT
#111
On February 04 2012 17:41 jubil wrote:
As interesting as the map stats are, I'm also intrigued by the word cloud. Looks like there's an interesting variety of bm going around, though the majority of talk is gm or neutral.

[image loading]

That doesn't even count offensive gg, and I'm sure I missed some words. : P


Haha, yeah, I noticed that as well. Although most of the circled words seem to be of low occurence as their font size is baseline. Anyways, cool stuff.

The Rise and Fall of SlayerS -- a timeline: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=378097
nucLeaRTV
Profile Joined May 2011
Romania822 Posts
February 04 2012 09:26 GMT
#112
On February 04 2012 15:02 graNite wrote:
I love those statistics, great work. can you give us overall winrates in all matchups?

There are in all matchups.

If PvZ is 46% -> ZvP is 54%, duh?

Perhaps avg. time for mirror matchups would've been interesting,
"Having your own haters means you are famous"
Sumahi
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Guam5609 Posts
February 04 2012 09:28 GMT
#113
Love the word cloud.
Startale <3, ST_July <3, HongUn <3, Savior <3, Gretorp <3, Nada <3, Rainbow <3, Ret <3, Squirtle <3, Bomber <3
zere
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany1287 Posts
February 04 2012 09:29 GMT
#114
How big is the variance in % of wrong maps being played? (I.e. playing on ESL iCCup Sanshorn Mist AE by ESL, which is outdated, instead of playing on ESV Sanshorn Mist AE by SUPEROUMAN, which is uptodate. Or playing on GSL Dual Sight by GomTV (outdated) instead of GSL_Dual Sight by TeamClash (uptodate) )
Also, thanks to how Blizzard's map system works, there are rolling changes to the maps. MLG Antiga and MLG Dual Sight were changed to no-gold bases at some point. MLG Metal features no more gold bases since last week. And MLG Shakuras was the outdated version with the backdoor rocks for the last 10 months on EU. This stuff will alter the statistics and is very hard to keep track of.
ModeratorWenn ich einmal traurig bin, dann trink' ich einen Korn. Wenn ich dann noch traurig bin, dann trink' ich noch 'nen Korn. Und wenn ich dann noch traurig bin, dann fang' ich an von vorn!
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
February 04 2012 09:29 GMT
#115
On February 04 2012 15:04 foxmeep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 04 2012 15:01 0kz wrote:
wow overall maps look pretty balanced..


what? out of the entire map pool only ONE map is balanced. the rest have 1 or more matchups that aren't even remotely balanced.

Edit: and this is the issue with trying to balance the game. the maps play such a huge factor it's really difficult to say what's "imbalanced" or not.

One could say a 5% margin is pretty balanced considering how the game could be. I think with a margin that is ~5% the better player should still win most of the time, unless they are not considerably better etc. Obviously it isn't perfect, and obviously you want every map to be 50-50-50, but this is pretty good in my opinion.
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
double620
Profile Joined July 2011
China804 Posts
February 04 2012 09:29 GMT
#116
On February 04 2012 15:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
holy shit, the stats for shak and taldarim are a lot closer than I'd think =O

I'm surprised the TvP on antiga is so high... isn't that supposed to be an easier map as protoss since you can take 3 base easily?

Same with TvP on Dual Sight, though I'm guessing terrans usually do some kind of early aggression or 1-1-1 all-in on that map to get an easy win.

anyways thanks a lot for sharing these!



Antiga is a great map for terran against toss. All the early agreesion on that map can be very effective and late game once terran has a gold, it would be super easy for terran. The gsl version one is balanced.
itkovian
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1763 Posts
February 04 2012 09:31 GMT
#117
The stats over all look pretty even.

What I really like though is the word cloud ^.^
=)=
CrtBalorda
Profile Joined December 2011
Slovenia704 Posts
February 04 2012 09:34 GMT
#118
lol at 2 gate, find it wierd how they all have the same avrage game length, I mean metalopolis and taldarim are pretty dam diffrent in size
4th August 2012...Never forget.....
double620
Profile Joined July 2011
China804 Posts
February 04 2012 09:34 GMT
#119
I think this shows us how much a map can contribute to game balance. For example, a few months ago, 11/11 opening against zergs and 111 against toss are extremely imbalanced, but maps encourage terrans to do that as well. Now when I look at it, the only tournament you can see 111 all the time is IEM simply because of the maps they are using.

I really hope all the major events can learn from gsl and pay more attention to the maps they are using. Of course, do not learn gsl by using Cross Fire.
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-04 09:39:28
February 04 2012 09:37 GMT
#120
--- Nuked ---
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