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On February 04 2012 15:07 KawaiiRice wrote:
these stats don't really reflect balance
Um, yes they do, except only for the lower-than-pro tier players, who kind of constitute the majority of the playerbase. What's wrong with tournament organizers optimizing the balance of their tournament according to the statistics of their target demographic?
On February 04 2012 15:07 KawaiiRice wrote:
random masters players don't even play the game right anyway.
And this invalidates the relevancy of this data in this particular context, how, exactly? Also, lol elitist.
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Can we see an overall winrate across all the maps for each matchup? I think it would be interesting.
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I like how the standard protoss opening has the worst % of winrates xd
Also, in Shattered Temple there's another thing to highlight: Protoss winrates are 45% vs Z and 46% vs T. Quite bad.
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On February 04 2012 19:26 madbringer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 15:07 KawaiiRice wrote:
these stats don't really reflect balance Um, yes they do, except only for the lower-than-pro tier players, who kind of constitute the majority of the playerbase. What's wrong with tournament organizers optimizing the balance of their tournament according to the statistics of their target demographic? Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 15:07 KawaiiRice wrote:
random masters players don't even play the game right anyway. And this invalidates the relevancy of this data in this particular context, how, exactly? Also, lol elitist.
Incorrect. This doesn't show balance, just win rates of lower level play on maps.
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On February 04 2012 19:07 Excludos wrote:
This only strengthens the idea that zergs early third hatch is a huge problem in PvZ, as Tal'darim, being the only map where this is hard to pull off, is the most balanced in that matchup (and all other matchups for that matter).
Such a shame the most balanced map is the worst map for PvP though =|
I disagree. I think the lack of a zerg third on taldarim (combined with the shape of the protoss natural) puts zerg behind. However, the strength of mutalisks on taldarim puts them even again.
This is purely opinion though (no evidence at all).
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I played a masters player named Maynard yesterday, I wonder if it's the same guy lol 
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Tal'Darim ftw, and apparently 2gate also. Awesome statistics, thank you very much for these.
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On February 04 2012 19:36 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 19:07 Excludos wrote:
This only strengthens the idea that zergs early third hatch is a huge problem in PvZ, as Tal'darim, being the only map where this is hard to pull off, is the most balanced in that matchup (and all other matchups for that matter).
Such a shame the most balanced map is the worst map for PvP though =| I disagree. I think the lack of a zerg third on taldarim (combined with the shape of the protoss natural) puts zerg behind. However, the strength of mutalisks on taldarim puts them even again. This is purely opinion though (no evidence at all).
Well, if mutalisks is able to put them ahead when they're apparantly "behind", doesn't that agree to the fact that mutalisks of 3 base is too strong? As then zergs are ahead (or even if you like) and get more ahead because of the mutalisks that would otherwise have just gotten them even.
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wow well done
really nice statistics but i wouldnt agree that taldarim is the most balanced map just because it has winrates that are so close together since on TDA a lot depends on spawning positions
(also it has least games played which is an indicator of people not liking this map too much)
great thread nonetheless
and
On February 04 2012 15:07 KawaiiRice wrote:these stats don't really reflect balance and random masters players don't even play the game right anyway. i.e.: Metal should be way more z favored, and antiga should be incredibly terran favored. Dual Sight and Shakuras should be more T favored TvZ too. Can't really comment on the other matchups. Regardless, nice post. <3 Playhem
dual sight T favored?
im not nearly as good as you but from what i have seen this map is quite good for zerg
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On February 04 2012 19:41 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 19:36 hzflank wrote:On February 04 2012 19:07 Excludos wrote:
This only strengthens the idea that zergs early third hatch is a huge problem in PvZ, as Tal'darim, being the only map where this is hard to pull off, is the most balanced in that matchup (and all other matchups for that matter).
Such a shame the most balanced map is the worst map for PvP though =| I disagree. I think the lack of a zerg third on taldarim (combined with the shape of the protoss natural) puts zerg behind. However, the strength of mutalisks on taldarim puts them even again. This is purely opinion though (no evidence at all). Well, if mutalisks is able to put them ahead when they're apparantly "behind", doesn't that agree to the fact that mutalisks of 3 base is too strong? As then zergs are ahead (or even if you like) and get more ahead because of the mutalisks that would otherwise have just gotten them even.
ever tried fast muta vs 7 gate?
doest work too well if we are entirely honest right?
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On February 04 2012 19:41 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 19:36 hzflank wrote:On February 04 2012 19:07 Excludos wrote:
This only strengthens the idea that zergs early third hatch is a huge problem in PvZ, as Tal'darim, being the only map where this is hard to pull off, is the most balanced in that matchup (and all other matchups for that matter).
Such a shame the most balanced map is the worst map for PvP though =| I disagree. I think the lack of a zerg third on taldarim (combined with the shape of the protoss natural) puts zerg behind. However, the strength of mutalisks on taldarim puts them even again. This is purely opinion though (no evidence at all). Well, if mutalisks is able to put them ahead when they're apparantly "behind", doesn't that agree to the fact that mutalisks of 3 base is too strong? As then zergs are ahead (or even if you like) and get more ahead because of the mutalisks that would otherwise have just gotten them even.
No, I was specifically talking about mutalisks on taldarim.
If you look at Shattered Temple, which also has rocks on the third, then I think it is fair to say that the map is balanced for other reasons. In this case it is the wide choke to the natural and the long distance from the bottom of the ramp to the natural minerals.
Every map has pros and cons for different reasons.
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On February 04 2012 19:35 Micket wrote:
Incorrect. This doesn't show balance, just win rates of lower level play on maps.
Yes and those win rates of "lower level play" encapsulate the balance in this particular tournament, under a specific set of circumstances and a specific player pool. What exactly is so hard to understand about that?
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On February 04 2012 16:13 Diamond wrote:
Pros say map stats are bullshit until they are in tournaments.
Maps goes into tournaments, pros say it's bullshit because it's not Koreans pros.
Maps go into Korean tournaments, pros claim it's bullshit because they need thousands of games.
Playhem released stats with thousands of games. Pros claim it's bullshit because it's not thousands of games with only the very highest level of players.........
Sigh...............
But then they applaud tournaments for using Blizzard maps that go no pro testing whatsoever and are not designed for tournament play....
This is an endless circle I swear. They could probably release stats with 15,000 games between MvP and NesTea and pros would say it's bullshit because it's not Flash vs. Jaedong..............
I agree with Diamond, I've been noticing this trend, every time there's a release of statistics that suit what the previous group whined about, and when they get their specifications for replay pool met, they complain about something else.
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On February 04 2012 15:02 lee365 wrote:
Proxy 2 gate represent. 62% winrate might make it one of the most effective cheeses in the game
It doesn't have to be offensive proxy 2 gates. Probably a lot of defensive ones to counter scouted 6 or 7 pools etc. Which is pretty easy to win once the rush has been stopped.
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awesome pic at the end
I think its also interesting to see how short the games are. There have to be alot of cheeses 
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lol i see the word 'dick' in the word cloud
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very interesting stats. ty OP
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France12921 Posts
What why some people said that Maynard is MKP? Does MKP ever play playhem?
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really cool stuff, thanks for spending your time doing it
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EPT
