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I agree with the immaturity of the game theory, I mean we are still on SC2 vanilla. And it is already getting better... in my opinion TvZ is already starting to get that mature, BW type feel to it. Hopefully some of the other matchups will progress in HotS.
There is also the fact that Starcraft 2 has alot of poker type game theory that goes into it. This is a deliberate design choice. It is not a game of mechanics, like BW, it is a game of strategy and decision making. And in games of strategy you don't just win 100% of the time, because there are inexact sciences involved like reading your opponent and making educated guesses and calculated risks.
I feel that some people who believe the game sucks think that because it isn't what they want the game to be, an exercise in mechanical superiority like Broodwar, it is bad. I think this is a different game, and beautiful in it's own way. Unlike BW, a higher % of players can reach the point of mechanical diminishing returns, and then more volatile concepts like strategy, game theory and creativity are more important.
(note: I am not saying Broodwar was only mechanics, or not completely awesome because it was and is. Broodwar is an amazing game of tactics and strategy. I am just saying that the mechanical ceiling was much higher, and the relative value of mechanics was higher there then in SC2, and that is not necessarily a bad thing)
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On February 02 2012 23:36 IdrA wrote:
cuz its a shit game
You forgot to give a shoutout to your sponsors so that the attention your post generates will provide exposure.
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Currently, in tennis, there is such a high skill divide that we have the same players winning again and again. But don't forget, it wasn't like this in the past - 10+ years ago, it was a lot more volatile.
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so many people without a sense of humor 
oh you guys...
Imbalance and unpredictability seem to be a result of imperfect knowledge about the game, which is only to be expected seeing as we're still in vanilla sc2 and have a 2 more expansions left to go. Be patient.
If it helps you sleep at night, just think of all the untapped potential/strategies that are waiting to be discovered and be part of the metagame. Gets me excited all the time.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On February 02 2012 21:18 ianyapxw wrote:
(These are just examples, please DO NOT discuss why they lost games but focus on why it's so hard to predict a winnner, or top 4 for that matter.)
Well then what's the point? I would contest that SC2 is that volatile at all. In at least 90% of all upsets, the loosing (but expected to win player) player played demonstratably worse than the winner.
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There's luck involved, so many times build order loses that either lose you the game or put you behind and "flaw" of GSL is that if a player like MVP who has "standard" style that everyone knows (mech TvT), they have loads of time to prepare perfect counter builds for him or any player. They dont need to counter his exact build order since you never know what player can do, but player cannot change his playstyle completely in 1 week and some players dont want to because they dont feel comfortable doing it..and there's always allins.
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BW is the expansion, the expansion for SC2 should help to balance it a lot more, throw in new strategies and improve the game, its a constant learning process, hence we get patches all the time. Also the maps favor different races insane amounts..
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Obviously SC2 is an awful game which we should all stop playing and because of this all accomplishments in the game mean nothing in the face of the glorious and true RTS of gods, played by gods, for a god-like fanbase, BW.
I am angry, yes.
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On February 03 2012 02:36 Jebasaurus wrote:
BW is the expansion, the expansion for SC2 should help to balance it a lot more, throw in new strategies and improve the game, its a constant learning process, hence we get patches all the time. Also the maps favor different races insane amounts..
but look at it this way its just the first expansion, it will be unbalance or what ever you call it for a long time after hots, BW was out and became patched overtime but at some point they stopped, did they get it right finally? i dont know but sc2 is just way too new to say one expansion is going to fix anything.
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Maybe as Artosis said in SotG, the map pools are too large and too diverse, thus players cannot refine their strategies on all these maps. Another reason would be that the players are content with their current winrates and do not have higher goals, therefore there is not incentive for them to train harder and refine their play. Another reason would be that the game is still in a volatile state, players are still experimenting with strategies and build orders.
Also gotta love those so-called "progamers" who don't hesitate to shit where they eat.
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Game is still evolving and people are still figuring things out.
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The game is young. The players are unpolished, the game is unpolished. There are things we have to learn, and things we have to make Blizzard fix, and even things we haven't found yet. The volatility of the game is good, but it's not unpredictable volatility really, a lot of players feel uncomfortable in things like battles with forcefields, or siege tanks, or banelings, where the potential damage dealt to armies is widely variable based on unit control. As new things come to the metagame people some people die and some people abuse it to get to the top. After a few more years we'll really see who can adapt and evolve.
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On February 03 2012 02:41 Klonere wrote:
Obviously SC2 is an awful game which we should all stop playing and because of this all accomplishments in the game mean nothing in the face of the glorious and true RTS of gods, played by gods, for a god-like fanbase, BW.
I am angry, yes.
SC2 is a great game no one is trying to take anything away from it, personally i think once BW players/Teams move to sc2 you will see why people are so passionate about BW and the skills BW players have, and yes i do think they will translate to SC2 .... can you imagine what Flash or Jaedong can do if they don't have to rally workers or can have bigger control groups? its amazing to think they can get even better.
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There's just so many external factors outside of starcraft that you have to think about as well. If there in a bad physical/emotional/mental state then thats so huge. Also team kills can be such a mind-fuck for the players. Can you imagine playing your practice partner who you play with 5 hours a day?
Theres also some matchups that are extremely unforgiving over a single mistake, such as in zvz with banelings or in pvp 4gate vs 4gate.
Another factor is who is in your specific group. If you only have to prepare for one matchup, thats such an advantage.
Your practice partners is also extremely important. If your playing with bad players, its going to be really hard to improve.
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On February 03 2012 00:43 Megaliskuu wrote:Thank you.
God i hope you get banned. Your fucking quote should get you banned to start with.
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I'm going to say the maps. In starcraft we have about 15+ maps used in various tournaments and its hard to balance the game perfectly around them as it has only been out for 18 months.
Tennis on the otherhand after many patches and map work has come up with 1 perfectly balanced map with 2 variations. One version is the 1v1 map that people spawn cross position at the north and south locations. The other version is for 2v2 with shared bases and the same 12/6 oclock spawns.
Additionally, hidden information. If tennis had a variant where your opponent would go invisible for lengths of time, I'm sure we would see the same thing happen. In tennis all the information is on the table, starcraft you have to scout and even then you have imperfect information about your opponent.
Edit: despite all the patches I still think that lefties are OP
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I feel that it’s down to the Bo3 format mostly, an unscouted cheese in the first or 2nd game can put a player 1 game up and cause his or her opponent to tilt, when it only takes 2 games to win a series then these two facts can result in a lesser player winning a series over a better player and the types of inconsistencies you describe will exist on a much greater scale than some would like. Bo5 would remedy this to some extent for obvious reasons.
Another thing is that simply put, there aren’t many players right now who are significantly ahead of the rest of the pack in terms of skill, there is a large group of the top players who could take games off of each other at any time, including B tier players to some extent, no one is really ‘untouchable’ by anyone other than the best of the best right now.
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because sc2 is a guessing game. the winner guessed right. the loser guessed wrong.
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Execution of build orders win more than raw ability?
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EPT
