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On August 16 2012 08:50 vandelayindustries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 00:29 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two other points about the Tempest which im trying to figure out:
1) The Carrier overlaps with the Collosus because they are both countered by the Viking/Corruptor. Yet from BR3 the Tempest also appears to be countered by the Viking and therefore suffers from the same problem.
2) The Tempest deals +Massive damage. Yet this overlaps with the Void Ray role. This is what I don't get about it—what is the Tempest supposed to be used for? It won't (as far as I can see) do anything to change the state of late game PvZ. Corruptors will negate any attempt to use Tempests against Brood Lords, so Protoss will again be stuck trying to make Mothership/Archon work.
Except the vortex will only hit the ground.
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On August 16 2012 08:57 MetalPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:50 vandelayindustries wrote:On August 15 2012 00:29 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two other points about the Tempest which im trying to figure out:
1) The Carrier overlaps with the Collosus because they are both countered by the Viking/Corruptor. Yet from BR3 the Tempest also appears to be countered by the Viking and therefore suffers from the same problem.
2) The Tempest deals +Massive damage. Yet this overlaps with the Void Ray role. This is what I don't get about it—what is the Tempest supposed to be used for? It won't (as far as I can see) do anything to change the state of late game PvZ. Corruptors will negate any attempt to use Tempests against Brood Lords, so Protoss will again be stuck trying to make Mothership/Archon work. Except the vortex will only hit the ground.
Is that how it works now with the mothership core change? Even more reason to worry about PvZ...
Guess I'd better go practice my Terran.
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On August 15 2012 00:25 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 15:30 Flexis wrote:On August 05 2012 12:03 Aetherial wrote:
After watching the OSL finals where Jangbi used carriers I'm convinced they need to keep and 'fix' the carrier in HotS... I hope they do. I say thesame. I want carriers more than the tempest. That cannot be the most important argument for a decision. If Blizzard would have asked the fans how they want SC2, we would now have Broodwar with widescreen graphics. Even though if you don't like this particular change for HotS, you should be able to see the greater good of developing a franchise forward instead of using the same old content over and over. In this case, a 'fixed' carrier would make the unit very unlikely like a carrier, so it is good that the unit gets replaced entirely instead of keeping the name for an effectively new unit.
I call BS my friend.
Changing stats/range of the Carrier and giving it back moving shot do not make it a 'new unit.'
Scrap the carrier for all I care, but don't give me a shallow unit with no depth. The carrier has 3-4 layers of depth that make it cool. The tempest, a single layer.
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On August 16 2012 08:50 vandelayindustries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 00:29 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two other points about the Tempest which im trying to figure out:
1) The Carrier overlaps with the Collosus because they are both countered by the Viking/Corruptor. Yet from BR3 the Tempest also appears to be countered by the Viking and therefore suffers from the same problem.
2) The Tempest deals +Massive damage. Yet this overlaps with the Void Ray role. This is what I don't get about it—what is the Tempest supposed to be used for? It won't (as far as I can see) do anything to change the state of late game PvZ. Corruptors will negate any attempt to use Tempests against Brood Lords, so Protoss will again be stuck trying to make Mothership/Archon work.
In HOTS viper can hook mothership and kill easily.
So the only role i can think of is use their long range to snipe them.
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On August 16 2012 09:01 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 00:25 [F_]aths wrote:On August 05 2012 15:30 Flexis wrote:On August 05 2012 12:03 Aetherial wrote:
After watching the OSL finals where Jangbi used carriers I'm convinced they need to keep and 'fix' the carrier in HotS... I hope they do. I say thesame. I want carriers more than the tempest. That cannot be the most important argument for a decision. If Blizzard would have asked the fans how they want SC2, we would now have Broodwar with widescreen graphics. Even though if you don't like this particular change for HotS, you should be able to see the greater good of developing a franchise forward instead of using the same old content over and over. In this case, a 'fixed' carrier would make the unit very unlikely like a carrier, so it is good that the unit gets replaced entirely instead of keeping the name for an effectively new unit. I call BS my friend. Changing stats/range of the Carrier and giving it back moving shot do not make it a 'new unit.' Scrap the carrier for all I care, but don't give me a shallow unit with no depth. The carrier has 3-4 layers of depth that make it cool. The tempest, a single layer.
the carrier has no depth its the msot Amove unit in existance its exactly like a broodlords only worse since the intercepters can be shot down
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I just played a 40 minute game PvZ and would like to re-emphasize that without the carrier protoss will get absolutely facerolled super late game PvZ. If vortex is removed from the mothership it'll compound the problem into something that will result in Protoss losing every game that goes past 35 minutes. I was banking 7k/5k on 5 bases (Ohana, so every base on my side of the map), and already was making carriers. Luckily for me, i broke through 20+ broodlords, 15+ infestors, 30ish corrupters and mass spine walls because I had 2 vortex's, 6 3/3/3 carriers, multitudes of 3/3/3 blink stalkers + archons + storms. The game should never reach a point where if you are given unlimited resources, you are still unable to scratch the opponents army. If you take away the carrier, that will be exactly what late game PvZ will be. You will see 5 200/200 blink stalker armies blink into split BL / Infestor / Spine wall and all die while killing 10 broodlords.
TL; DR carrier HAS it's role now in the game. There is no reason to remove it. There may be arguements to buff / change / nerf certain aspects of it, but absolutely no reason to remove it. And as a side note, what battle isn't as epic in one go as super late game PvZ. It has motherships vortexing, it has storms dropping, feedbacks going, fungals happening, infested terrans flying, and most of all: broodlords sending swarms of units at protoss with carriers sending swarms of interceptors at zerg.
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On August 16 2012 09:12 SaroVati wrote:
I just played a 40 minute game PvZ and would like to re-emphasize that without the carrier protoss will get absolutely facerolled super late game PvZ. If vortex is removed from the mothership it'll compound the problem into something that will result in Protoss losing every game that goes past 35 minutes. I was banking 7k/5k on 5 bases (Ohana, so every base on my side of the map), and already was making carriers. Luckily for me, i broke through 20+ broodlords, 15+ infestors, 30ish corrupters and mass spine walls because I had 2 vortex's, 6 3/3/3 carriers, multitudes of 3/3/3 blink stalkers + archons + storms. The game should never reach a point where if you are given unlimited resources, you are still unable to scratch the opponents army. If you take away the carrier, that will be exactly what late game PvZ will be. You will see 5 200/200 blink stalker armies blink into split BL / Infestor / Spine wall and all die while killing 10 broodlords.
TL; DR carrier HAS it's role now in the game. There is no reason to remove it. There may be arguements to buff / change / nerf certain aspects of it, but absolutely no reason to remove it. And as a side note, what battle isn't as epic in one go as super late game PvZ. It has motherships vortexing, it has storms dropping, feedbacks going, fungals happening, infested terrans flying, and most of all: broodlords sending swarms of units at protoss with carriers sending swarms of interceptors at zerg.
22 range tempest? hello??? 22range tempest makes it so that you can potentially deal with BL Infestor deathball without having to vortex. Thats the idea anyway and you should probably give it time.
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On August 16 2012 08:59 vandelayindustries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:57 MetalPanda wrote:On August 16 2012 08:50 vandelayindustries wrote:On August 15 2012 00:29 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two other points about the Tempest which im trying to figure out:
1) The Carrier overlaps with the Collosus because they are both countered by the Viking/Corruptor. Yet from BR3 the Tempest also appears to be countered by the Viking and therefore suffers from the same problem.
2) The Tempest deals +Massive damage. Yet this overlaps with the Void Ray role. This is what I don't get about it—what is the Tempest supposed to be used for? It won't (as far as I can see) do anything to change the state of late game PvZ. Corruptors will negate any attempt to use Tempests against Brood Lords, so Protoss will again be stuck trying to make Mothership/Archon work. Except the vortex will only hit the ground. Is that how it works now with the mothership core change? Even more reason to worry about PvZ... Guess I'd better go practice my Terran.
Mothership is getting Stasis which is only for air, right?
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On August 16 2012 09:13 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 09:12 SaroVati wrote:
I just played a 40 minute game PvZ and would like to re-emphasize that without the carrier protoss will get absolutely facerolled super late game PvZ. If vortex is removed from the mothership it'll compound the problem into something that will result in Protoss losing every game that goes past 35 minutes. I was banking 7k/5k on 5 bases (Ohana, so every base on my side of the map), and already was making carriers. Luckily for me, i broke through 20+ broodlords, 15+ infestors, 30ish corrupters and mass spine walls because I had 2 vortex's, 6 3/3/3 carriers, multitudes of 3/3/3 blink stalkers + archons + storms. The game should never reach a point where if you are given unlimited resources, you are still unable to scratch the opponents army. If you take away the carrier, that will be exactly what late game PvZ will be. You will see 5 200/200 blink stalker armies blink into split BL / Infestor / Spine wall and all die while killing 10 broodlords.
TL; DR carrier HAS it's role now in the game. There is no reason to remove it. There may be arguements to buff / change / nerf certain aspects of it, but absolutely no reason to remove it. And as a side note, what battle isn't as epic in one go as super late game PvZ. It has motherships vortexing, it has storms dropping, feedbacks going, fungals happening, infested terrans flying, and most of all: broodlords sending swarms of units at protoss with carriers sending swarms of interceptors at zerg. 22 range tempest? hello??? 22range tempest makes it so that you can potentially deal with BL Infestor deathball without having to vortex. Thats the idea anyway and you should probably give it time.
What do you do if 20 Corruptors fly forward to snipe your Tempests? You take a big risk if you move your stalkers forward to pick them off, because they can be fungaled and subsequently killed by Brood Lords.
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Return the carrier's ability to continue to use interceptors while moving like in BW, congrats you have fixed the carrier. I don't want this sad excuse for an air unit that they call the Tempest.
I want to be able to micro my carriers while the interceptors focus specific targets.
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Un-noted 1.5 Carrier Buff Was awesome.
Game 2 here from Korean WCS:
http://www.gomtv.net/2012wcskorea/vod/70407
It was given some of it's micro ability back from BW days.
Interceptors are out much longer than before, allowing the carrier to attack then kite back.
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On August 16 2012 09:35 vandelayindustries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 09:13 Picklebread wrote:On August 16 2012 09:12 SaroVati wrote:
I just played a 40 minute game PvZ and would like to re-emphasize that without the carrier protoss will get absolutely facerolled super late game PvZ. If vortex is removed from the mothership it'll compound the problem into something that will result in Protoss losing every game that goes past 35 minutes. I was banking 7k/5k on 5 bases (Ohana, so every base on my side of the map), and already was making carriers. Luckily for me, i broke through 20+ broodlords, 15+ infestors, 30ish corrupters and mass spine walls because I had 2 vortex's, 6 3/3/3 carriers, multitudes of 3/3/3 blink stalkers + archons + storms. The game should never reach a point where if you are given unlimited resources, you are still unable to scratch the opponents army. If you take away the carrier, that will be exactly what late game PvZ will be. You will see 5 200/200 blink stalker armies blink into split BL / Infestor / Spine wall and all die while killing 10 broodlords.
TL; DR carrier HAS it's role now in the game. There is no reason to remove it. There may be arguements to buff / change / nerf certain aspects of it, but absolutely no reason to remove it. And as a side note, what battle isn't as epic in one go as super late game PvZ. It has motherships vortexing, it has storms dropping, feedbacks going, fungals happening, infested terrans flying, and most of all: broodlords sending swarms of units at protoss with carriers sending swarms of interceptors at zerg. 22 range tempest? hello??? 22range tempest makes it so that you can potentially deal with BL Infestor deathball without having to vortex. Thats the idea anyway and you should probably give it time. What do you do if 20 Corruptors fly forward to snipe your Tempests? You take a big risk if you move your stalkers forward to pick them off, because they can be fungaled and subsequently killed by Brood Lords.
You dont take a big risk because they have 22range.
I would rather they keep the carrier though. In HOTS i see it having uses.
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I wish they would make the carrier more easily viable... it just seems like everything that the carrier can do, something else can do cheaper, earlier, and better... some kind of buff is in order but do NOT remove it please!
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On August 16 2012 10:09 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 09:35 vandelayindustries wrote:On August 16 2012 09:13 Picklebread wrote:On August 16 2012 09:12 SaroVati wrote:
I just played a 40 minute game PvZ and would like to re-emphasize that without the carrier protoss will get absolutely facerolled super late game PvZ. If vortex is removed from the mothership it'll compound the problem into something that will result in Protoss losing every game that goes past 35 minutes. I was banking 7k/5k on 5 bases (Ohana, so every base on my side of the map), and already was making carriers. Luckily for me, i broke through 20+ broodlords, 15+ infestors, 30ish corrupters and mass spine walls because I had 2 vortex's, 6 3/3/3 carriers, multitudes of 3/3/3 blink stalkers + archons + storms. The game should never reach a point where if you are given unlimited resources, you are still unable to scratch the opponents army. If you take away the carrier, that will be exactly what late game PvZ will be. You will see 5 200/200 blink stalker armies blink into split BL / Infestor / Spine wall and all die while killing 10 broodlords.
TL; DR carrier HAS it's role now in the game. There is no reason to remove it. There may be arguements to buff / change / nerf certain aspects of it, but absolutely no reason to remove it. And as a side note, what battle isn't as epic in one go as super late game PvZ. It has motherships vortexing, it has storms dropping, feedbacks going, fungals happening, infested terrans flying, and most of all: broodlords sending swarms of units at protoss with carriers sending swarms of interceptors at zerg. 22 range tempest? hello??? 22range tempest makes it so that you can potentially deal with BL Infestor deathball without having to vortex. Thats the idea anyway and you should probably give it time. What do you do if 20 Corruptors fly forward to snipe your Tempests? You take a big risk if you move your stalkers forward to pick them off, because they can be fungaled and subsequently killed by Brood Lords. You dont take a big risk because they have 22range. I would rather they keep the carrier though. In HOTS i see it having uses.
dont take a big risk pooring tons of mins and gas into a useless unit?
6 tempest cost 1800 mins 1800 gas. Each tempest has a dps of about a stalker
I would much rather have 6 colossi which also happens to be cheaper too
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Just relax guys. Blizzard is setting this whole thing up.I think it's ok to lose the carriers in HOTS, they will surely bring it back in LOTV.
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On August 16 2012 11:17 Ra`s Al Ghul wrote:
Just relax guys. Blizzard is setting this whole thing up.I think it's ok to lose the carriers in HOTS, they will surely bring it back in LOTV.
Not everything rises from the dead as easily as you do, Ra's.
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On August 16 2012 08:50 vandelayindustries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 00:29 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two other points about the Tempest which im trying to figure out:
1) The Carrier overlaps with the Collosus because they are both countered by the Viking/Corruptor. Yet from BR3 the Tempest also appears to be countered by the Viking and therefore suffers from the same problem.
2) The Tempest deals +Massive damage. Yet this overlaps with the Void Ray role. This is what I don't get about it—what is the Tempest supposed to be used for? It won't (as far as I can see) do anything to change the state of late game PvZ. Corruptors will negate any attempt to use Tempests against Brood Lords, so Protoss will again be stuck trying to make Mothership/Archon work.
Tempest's ridiculous range makes it not that vulnerable to corrupters since you can just have a bunch of stalkers underneath if they corrupters move forward to engage. The range factor is what makes the tempest a unit with any potential at all. If there wasn't ridiculous range, it would be a voidray with burst damage for more money
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United States7483 Posts
On August 16 2012 09:35 vandelayindustries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 09:13 Picklebread wrote:On August 16 2012 09:12 SaroVati wrote:
I just played a 40 minute game PvZ and would like to re-emphasize that without the carrier protoss will get absolutely facerolled super late game PvZ. If vortex is removed from the mothership it'll compound the problem into something that will result in Protoss losing every game that goes past 35 minutes. I was banking 7k/5k on 5 bases (Ohana, so every base on my side of the map), and already was making carriers. Luckily for me, i broke through 20+ broodlords, 15+ infestors, 30ish corrupters and mass spine walls because I had 2 vortex's, 6 3/3/3 carriers, multitudes of 3/3/3 blink stalkers + archons + storms. The game should never reach a point where if you are given unlimited resources, you are still unable to scratch the opponents army. If you take away the carrier, that will be exactly what late game PvZ will be. You will see 5 200/200 blink stalker armies blink into split BL / Infestor / Spine wall and all die while killing 10 broodlords.
TL; DR carrier HAS it's role now in the game. There is no reason to remove it. There may be arguements to buff / change / nerf certain aspects of it, but absolutely no reason to remove it. And as a side note, what battle isn't as epic in one go as super late game PvZ. It has motherships vortexing, it has storms dropping, feedbacks going, fungals happening, infested terrans flying, and most of all: broodlords sending swarms of units at protoss with carriers sending swarms of interceptors at zerg. 22 range tempest? hello??? 22range tempest makes it so that you can potentially deal with BL Infestor deathball without having to vortex. Thats the idea anyway and you should probably give it time. What do you do if 20 Corruptors fly forward to snipe your Tempests? You take a big risk if you move your stalkers forward to pick them off, because they can be fungaled and subsequently killed by Brood Lords.
Um, 22 range. By the time the corrupters get within their what, 6, 7 range? You can easily defend the tempests without ever letting corrupters get close, and without getting in range of brood lords or infestors. Hell, keep an oracle with the tempests, don't let overseers near it (snipe them with tempests if they try, or just blink/feedback it or whatever), and then hit mass cloak if they threaten them. No way will anything on the ground get near it if you have your army protecting them.
22 range is pretty ridiculous, and I play Protoss.
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There's not much time left ;_;
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On August 16 2012 12:25 SarcasmMonster wrote:
There's not much time left ;_;
Even if beta starts it should be relatively simple for them to add it back in. It is still in the game after all.
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EPT
