Top Ten Reasons the Carrier Should Remain in the Game
1) It hasn't received any major balance changes since the game launched
Lets look at Blizzard’s current view of the carrier.
The biggest problem we still have with the carrier is that we can’t identify a meaningful role for the unit. It fills a similar niche as the colossus in terms of the tech level and role it provides. Both are siege range units, but the colossus is splash damage, is a lot faster in coming into play, is less of a risk to bring out, and because of how common colossi are in protoss games, counter units such as corruptors or vikings are already available, making carriers even less viable. We could just do a straight numbers buff on the carrier, but we don’t really think that’ll change too much for the reasons mentioned above. Therefore, we believe the best way to solve this issue is to either change the design of the carrier after locating a viable end game role for the unit or to just bring in a completely new unit that will actually be useful in the late game by removing the carrier. -David Kim
So Blizzard’s problem with the carrier is one of role and viability. They do not believe a straight up numbers buff would change too much. In this post I will explain that they should be cautious in coming to this conclusion because A) they haven't actually tested any carrier changes and B) there is good evidence that balance changes can make units fill a good game role.
To start lets take a look at the balance changes of a Protoss air unit. Void Ray Balance Changes + Show Spoiler +
Beta Patch 8 Changed to only have 2 damage levels instead of 3. Still takes the same amount of time to fully charge. Base damage changed from 2(+4 armored) to 5. Powered-up damage changed from 8 (+16 armored) to 10 (+15 armored). Armor value decreased from 1 to 0. Cost increased from 200/150 to 250/150. Beta Patch 13 Range decreased from 7 to 6. Patch 1.1.2 Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Patch 1.2.0 Now deals 20% more damage to massive targets. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed.
And maybe we should examine an end game unit too for comparison. Ultralisk Balance Changes + Show Spoiler +
Beta Patch 11 Damage has been increased from 18 to 25. Beta Patch 13 Life decreased from 600 to 450. Damage changed from 25 to 15 (+25 Armored). Damage versus structures increased from 60 to 75. Beta Patch 14 Anabolic Synthesis upgrade removed. Health increased from 450 to 500. Speed increased from 2.25 to 2.9531. Beta Patch 16 Now immune to stuns and mind control. Patch 1.1.0 Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). Patch 1.4.0 Build time decreased from 70 to 55.
And then of course there is the Infestor Infestor Balance Changes + Show Spoiler +
Beta Patch 1 Fungal Growth: The damage done by this ability has decreased from 48 to 36. Fungal Growth: This ability now prevents affected units from burrowing. Neural Parasite: Functionality changed - The Infestor now channels this spell, which lasts 10 seconds or until the Infestor is destroyed. You can now target all units with this ability. Terran Infestation: The ability’s energy cost has reduced from 50 to 25 and Infested Terrans now spawn 1 at a time. Beta Patch 5 Neural Parasite has been redesigned: The limited duration of 10 seconds has been removed. Can no longer target air units. Cast range decreased from 9 to 7. Burrowed Infestor move speed decreased from 1.5 to 1. Infestor life decreased from 120 to 90. Infestors that are burrowed now have the same threat level as above-ground units for the purposes of automatically acquiring targets. Beta Patch 9 Infested Terran Damage increased from 5 to 8. Speed decreased from 1.5 to 0.9375. Neural Parasite range increased from 7 to 9. Fungal Growth projectile removed; Units in the target area are now instantly hit. Beta Patch 11 Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit. Neural Parasite research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds. Neural Parasite can now target Air units. Neural Parasite energy cost increased from 50 to 100. Beta Patch 13 Infested Terran spell removed. Frenzy spell added: Costs 25 energy. Targets a single biological unit which deals 25% more damage and is immune to snare, stuns, and mind control for 30 seconds. Infested Terran spell added to Overlord Costs 125 energy. Infested Terrans have the same stats as those previously created by the Infestor and are placed directly under the Overseer when spawned. Beta Patch 14 Burrowed move speed increased from 1 to 2. Peristalsis upgrade removed. Beta Patch 16 Frenzy spell removed. Infested Terran spell added. Beta Patch 1.1.2 Fungal Growth now prevents Blink. Beta Patch 1.3.0 Fungal Growth Stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Damage increased by +30% vs. armored units. Beta Patch 1.3.3 Speed decreased from 2.5 to 2.25. Beta Patch 1.4.0 Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored). Neural Parasite range decreased from 9 to 7.
And now lets check out the Carrier Carrier Balance Changes + Show Spoiler +
So nothing has been tried to make the carrier more viable. But does this matter? Is there evidence that balance changes can make previously unviable units viable and create new roles for such units? Well actually yes. For all three of the previous units. The void ray was more specifically targeted towards massive units. The Ultralisk acquired an anti-armored role. And the Infestor went through many role phases including unit support (frenzy), harass (burrow cast Infested Terran), AoE Damage (Fungal Growth given damage), anti-armor (+damage vs Armored) and various degrees of anti-air (Neural Parasite and Fungal Growth buffs). And now after all these growing pains it is one of the most seen Zerg units across multiple match ups.
Just imagine if the Carrier were given a fraction of the change the Infestor received.
On July 30 2012 08:04 shockaslim wrote: Well, I feel that the Carrier NEEDS to stay around because Blizzard is placing a very strong emphasis on Terran using Factory units against Protoss, and the Carrier fills a specific role as a fantastic counter to mech. In BW, Protoss ultimate end game against mech was Carriers, and if they remove the Carrier for HoTS then there could be some really big issues.
Great point.
Not really. They've replaced the carrier with the tempest which does high damage to massive targets and specialises at taking out big targets from a distance. Mech is a slow positional composition which relies on massive units for anti-air. Not only does the tempest outrange mech in a way which the carrier doesn't, it also deals sensational damage to the only mech units which can fight back.
While I agree with this, you also have to look at it from the Terran's perspective. How is it remotely fair that all your massive units take terrible damage from a distance you can't even see, let alone react to? Vikings don't have the health or armor to last 3 seconds away from the bulk of the mech army supporting them, so you can't really just go out and chase the tempests. They basically have free reign against a mech army to take potshots from several screen distances away. At least with carriers there is a micro dynamic that could be made interesting and challenging through small balance tweaks. The carrier would make for much more interesting and challenging anti-mech play, as it forces you to micro (kiting, splitting, targeting, etc) to avoid being wrecked by thor anti-air splash while dealing maximum damage via the "extended range" mechanic.
On a related note, with said extended range carriers can sort of out-range thors, provided they are micro'd properly. Hard as hell, though.
On July 30 2012 09:10 Jrocker152 wrote: I'll bet this has been mentioned, but what if a carrier can initially carry 8 interceptors with a max of (10? 12? 16?) after an upgrade? Is that too imba or too underwhelming?
Easily too imbalanced, Carriers are already really powerful but seem to need really high numbers to be effective, and even then in the time it takes you to get those numbers the enemy can take every base ever and then plan a perfect mix of counters.
I think I agree with the most basic sentiment. Carriers would instantly be worth a lot more if they just increased the ability to micro them more efficiently. There's a tonne more worth that could be instilled into a capital ship with this design, but just having micro would help a lot. This would only solve one of the four issues I see with the carrier though:
1) Long build times - hard to transition to 2) Poor in small numbers - interceptors for a couple of carriers can be gunned down quickly 3) Survivability - The micro ability for the carrier is non-existant 4) Place in Protoss army - The carrier's role in the Protoss army is currently inferior to other units (void rays, collosus, etc)
Very basically most of this can be fixed with modifying numbers. #4 appears to be what Blizzard is struggling with but I've seen plenty of good suggestions through this thread which update the carrier to be something more than what it already is.
I'm still really hoping they keep it.
Point taken, not just bold. I think you said what I bolded because you knew that was the problem I was thinking of solving. But if you increase the supply requirement on carriers accordingly, then more interceptors per carrier = less carriers required, so needed critical mass achieved sooner. However, due to higher supply, you can't build as many. This is a micro encouraging buff, because each carrier is a bigger investment and is a bigger hit to your critical mass when lost. Already costs more to build more interceptors, and... It looks cooler. But yes I can see imba happening REALLY fast if this was taken at all too far. Or if the corresponding supply increase defeats their viability again... Or if balancing increased gas cost makes collo cheaper therefore better again...
It's just an idea. But I agree, pretty imba too quick for comfort. That's why I also proposed a purchased upgrade for two more each, but would the benefit even be worth it at that point...
I'm mostly concerned that Protoss has no cost effective air superiority options in PvZ. Zerg spread their air out, so you'll be lucky to get more than a couple Infestors vortexed while your Mothership gets vaporized by the Corruptors. Templar are great against Broodlords, but Corruptors seem to shrug them off. Stalkers don't even stand a chance, presuming they brought fungals. It's less of an issue for PvT because Banshees and BCs aren't nearly as broken as the Broodlord. The Carrier could've been the sky-Colossus, weak when exposed, but can be defended by Stalkers or zoning techniques, but the Carrier stats are just too weak to fulfill ANY role, which is why Blizzard keeps having a hard time finding a role for it. Its just a cost inefficient mess that only works if your opponent is air incompetent, like the Scout.
Top Ten Reasons the Carrier Should Remain in the Game
2) SC needs at least one “ OMG I can’t believe he just used that unit to win!”
Starcraft 2 needs at least one unit that the pros can surprise the spectators by making it viable. Taking a unit no one thought was good and using it to dominate is one of the highest forms of innovation a professional player can do. Starcraft 1’s history shows this many times: Science Vessels, defilers, reavers, all once considered worthless. Yet as Brood War evolved so did these units until they were metagame staples. And many of these units made this transformation without any balance changes at all.
A perfect Starcraft 2 example of this transformation was seen with the Mothership. Mothership Balance Changes + Show Spoiler +
Beta Patch 2 The build time for this unit has increased from 120 to 160. The food cost of this unit has increased from 6 to 8. The number of shots fired by this unit has decreased from 8 to 6. The shield of this unit has decreased from 400 to 350. The health of this unit has decreased from 400 to 350. The acceleration of this unit has decreased from 1.3125 to 0.3125. The deceleration of this unit has increased from 0 to 1. Beta Patch 12 Vortex now removes Force Fields within its area of effect. Patch 1.3.0 Units leaving the Mothership's Vortex are now un-targetable and immune to damage for 1.5 seconds. Patch 1.4.0 Mothership Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375. The Mothership's Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate "Mothership Lag" issue when a Mothership comes online.
When SC2 first came out the Mothership never saw action. And this continued for months. Players complained that it was too slow for a support unit. That the mothership cost too much for players to use mass recall like arbiters. They said that cloak meant it was always targeted first and therefore could never contribute to the battle. And some of those points may have been correct.
But it didn’t mean it wasn’t viable.
Sure some players, most notably HUK, had managed to pull of incredible games by getting the Mothership out. But nothing metagame changing. And on an night like any other night I saw this video and knew the Mothership was finally viable.
But it didn’t end their. Blizzard patched Vortex to remove forcefields. And what did the players do? They rose up and innovated once again. Substituting Archons for Colossi and Forcefields to create the most awesome sounding tactic yet, the Archon Toilet. And now we can see the Mothership in all its glory in standard play.
And the Mothership is still getting more work done on it in HOTS. And the Reaper is as well. The reaper, which along with the hydra and raven, are rarely if ever seen in the current meta game yet all getting a second chance in HOTS. And when some player finally uses Reapers to win a game I am sure fans will say “OMG I can’t believe he used that unit to win!” But I doubt they'll jump to their feet.
Liquid`Hero took down Suppy in game 5 using a Carrier+Void Ray+Mothership+archon+Stalker combo. The Carriers mixed with void rays is crucial. It is much stronger than pure carrier. This was game 5, fighting for qualification. Hero, one of the top Protoss in SC2 decided to use Carriers. You want an argument that goes beyond "coolness" factor? There you have it. We haven't seen a single battle cruiser in pro games in a while. Yet carriers keep showing up. They should not be removed.
ROX.KIS.Titan just beat SortOf with a Carrier combination. Carriers are being effectively used.
Lot's of BW units people wanted didn't come. Carrier came, it saw, it failed. Majority won't even know the carrier is gone. If they could make it fit in balance and make it usable at same time, then I see no problem. But as things are and with HOTS coming, the carrier seems to have phased itself out.
On August 04 2012 06:37 HappyTimePANDA wrote: Lot's of BW units people wanted didn't come. Carrier came, it saw, it failed. Majority won't even know the carrier is gone. If they could make it fit in balance and make it usable at same time, then I see no problem. But as things are and with HOTS coming, the carrier seems to have phased itself out.
Did you see NASL finals? Carriers are how MC took out Liquid`Ret. Been watching ASUS ROG? Liquid`Hero took out EG.Suppy in the final game using Carriers. Carriers are used way more often than Battle Cruisers ever are.
On July 31 2012 14:43 Cloak wrote: I'm mostly concerned that Protoss has no cost effective air superiority options in PvZ. Zerg spread their air out, so you'll be lucky to get more than a couple Infestors vortexed while your Mothership gets vaporized by the Corruptors. Templar are great against Broodlords, but Corruptors seem to shrug them off. Stalkers don't even stand a chance, presuming they brought fungals. It's less of an issue for PvT because Banshees and BCs aren't nearly as broken as the Broodlord. The Carrier could've been the sky-Colossus, weak when exposed, but can be defended by Stalkers or zoning techniques, but the Carrier stats are just too weak to fulfill ANY role, which is why Blizzard keeps having a hard time finding a role for it. Its just a cost inefficient mess that only works if your opponent is air incompetent, like the Scout.
...? It's extremely strong, just impossible to consistently get to; most games just don't leave the protoss enough time to establish a carrier fleet without the Zerg's BL/infestor army lumbering over and killing him. If you've seen a decent protoss with 6+ carriers, a mothership, and a ton of archons/hts you'd understand why Zergs whine about it. Storm kills corruptors faster than you think, if you clump anything you get archon toileted, IT die to storms as well. It's super strong, just that carriers take WAY too long to build, require upgrades to be decent, and have to be added to an already ULTRA gas intensive army. If they just made them build (a significant amount) faster you'd see more of them, as it is you'll die 90% of the time before you actually get any decent carrier fleet up.
Even now it's the best answer to BL+infestor and you'll see players like NoNy, Hero, Titan, MC, etc. use them to great effect in PvZ.
On August 04 2012 06:37 HappyTimePANDA wrote: Lot's of BW units people wanted didn't come. Carrier came, it saw, it failed. Majority won't even know the carrier is gone. If they could make it fit in balance and make it usable at same time, then I see no problem. But as things are and with HOTS coming, the carrier seems to have phased itself out.
Did you see NASL finals? Carriers are how MC took out Liquid`Ret. Been watching ASUS ROG? Liquid`Hero took out EG.Suppy in the final game using Carriers. Carriers are used way more often than Battle Cruisers ever are.
Can you post the videos? Or at least tell us which games the carriers were used in?
On August 04 2012 06:37 HappyTimePANDA wrote: Lot's of BW units people wanted didn't come. Carrier came, it saw, it failed. Majority won't even know the carrier is gone. If they could make it fit in balance and make it usable at same time, then I see no problem. But as things are and with HOTS coming, the carrier seems to have phased itself out.
Did you see NASL finals? Carriers are how MC took out Liquid`Ret. Been watching ASUS ROG? Liquid`Hero took out EG.Suppy in the final game using Carriers. Carriers are used way more often than Battle Cruisers ever are.
Can you post the videos? Or at least tell us which games the carriers were used in?
MC vs Ret: Most recent NASL finals, 3rd place match, it was the final game.
Hero vs Suppy: Group stage 2, game 5. I'm assuming the Ret/MC games are on youtube on the NASL channel. The Suppy/Hero game happened today, so likely not up yet.
On August 04 2012 06:37 HappyTimePANDA wrote: Lot's of BW units people wanted didn't come. Carrier came, it saw, it failed. Majority won't even know the carrier is gone. If they could make it fit in balance and make it usable at same time, then I see no problem. But as things are and with HOTS coming, the carrier seems to have phased itself out.
Did you see NASL finals? Carriers are how MC took out Liquid`Ret. Been watching ASUS ROG? Liquid`Hero took out EG.Suppy in the final game using Carriers. Carriers are used way more often than Battle Cruisers ever are.
A hand full of matches they were used out of hundreds. And the reason they worked is because they were so unexpected. Comparing to BC is pointless, since both are never used and only work as a surprise. (Although I would say BC is more viable since Terran needs a late game unit while toss is fine without carrier)
I could care less if Carrier stays or goes. I liked rushing them in BW to have fun but with SC2 how it is, I think their efforts are best put in other places.
Carriers are much cooler than the new long range protoss air unit. I guess they just want to put in a new protoss air unit just to add something new in the expansion.
I wish they could just fix the carrier interceptor control to be more like it was in broodwar.
On August 04 2012 07:13 parkin wrote: Carriers are much cooler than the new long range protoss air unit. I guess they just want to put in a new protoss air unit just to add something new in the expansion.
I wish they could just fix the carrier interceptor control to be more like it was in broodwar.
well toss gets that new cloak (mothership) from nexus. The new air unit doesn't impress me but that does.
On August 04 2012 06:37 HappyTimePANDA wrote: Lot's of BW units people wanted didn't come. Carrier came, it saw, it failed. Majority won't even know the carrier is gone. If they could make it fit in balance and make it usable at same time, then I see no problem. But as things are and with HOTS coming, the carrier seems to have phased itself out.
Did you see NASL finals? Carriers are how MC took out Liquid`Ret. Been watching ASUS ROG? Liquid`Hero took out EG.Suppy in the final game using Carriers. Carriers are used way more often than Battle Cruisers ever are.
A hand full of matches they were used out of hundreds. And the reason they worked is because they were so unexpected. Comparing to BC is pointless, since both are never used and only work as a surprise. (Although I would say BC is more viable since Terran needs a late game unit while toss is fine without carrier)
I could care less if Carrier stays or goes. I liked rushing them in BW to have fun but with SC2 how it is, I think their efforts are best put in other places.
Not really. Carrier are becoming a popular response vZ in late game. They are pretty good actually, when the transition to them is planned out.
On August 04 2012 06:37 HappyTimePANDA wrote: Lot's of BW units people wanted didn't come. Carrier came, it saw, it failed. Majority won't even know the carrier is gone. If they could make it fit in balance and make it usable at same time, then I see no problem. But as things are and with HOTS coming, the carrier seems to have phased itself out.
Did you see NASL finals? Carriers are how MC took out Liquid`Ret. Been watching ASUS ROG? Liquid`Hero took out EG.Suppy in the final game using Carriers. Carriers are used way more often than Battle Cruisers ever are.
A hand full of matches they were used out of hundreds. And the reason they worked is because they were so unexpected. Comparing to BC is pointless, since both are never used and only work as a surprise. (Although I would say BC is more viable since Terran needs a late game unit while toss is fine without carrier)
My point is that while BCs are able to never be used, Carriers are not. And not only that, but Carrier/Void combination is becoming a go-to option in super late game PvZ. Carriers have a greater presence in Protoss strategies than BCs do in Terran strategies. This is relevant because Dustin Browder has said the reason the Carrier is being removed is the fact that it is not used enough. If that is the reason, BCs should also be gone. But in my eyes, neither should. And if one were to be removed by that logic, it would indisputably be the BC, judging by the past 6 months of professional games, both foreign and the GSL.
On August 04 2012 06:37 HappyTimePANDA wrote: Lot's of BW units people wanted didn't come. Carrier came, it saw, it failed. Majority won't even know the carrier is gone. If they could make it fit in balance and make it usable at same time, then I see no problem. But as things are and with HOTS coming, the carrier seems to have phased itself out.
Did you see NASL finals? Carriers are how MC took out Liquid`Ret. Been watching ASUS ROG? Liquid`Hero took out EG.Suppy in the final game using Carriers. Carriers are used way more often than Battle Cruisers ever are.
A hand full of matches they were used out of hundreds. And the reason they worked is because they were so unexpected. Comparing to BC is pointless, since both are never used and only work as a surprise. (Although I would say BC is more viable since Terran needs a late game unit while toss is fine without carrier)
I could care less if Carrier stays or goes. I liked rushing them in BW to have fun but with SC2 how it is, I think their efforts are best put in other places.
Not really. Carrier are becoming a popular response vZ in late game. They are pretty good actually, when the transition to them is planned out.
It still is random when it happens. It isn't a set meta-game build. And like I said stay or go doesn't matter to me, I am more concerned about Blizzard focusing on HoTS balance.
EPT
