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On January 27 2012 14:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The carrier needs:
-Its own niche use
-The ability to be microed better
-To not be a unit that's only useful once the game is already won
-Something else exciting that isn't just lore (and I loved the carrier from BW, but that doesn't make it practical in SC2)
I would be extremely happy to see the carrier stick around for HotS if these changes could be implemented.
this was my suggestion for either hardened shields or making collosus slower and have more front loaded damage (have them deal their damage quicker in the animation). collosus would be too immobile for a main army without shuttles to carry them around, and so carriers become the main force unit, and collosus are sent to harrass and used as carefully micro'd support units.
as for making carriers micro'able, decreasing the rate at which they slow down and increasing their turning speed would allow for them to maintain momentum and dance well.
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On January 27 2012 14:47 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 11:11 Kharnage wrote:On January 27 2012 10:30 tdt wrote:On January 27 2012 08:33 Kharnage wrote:The carrier as it stands is a very very expensive broodlord. Not only is it more expensive to build, but it costs more supply and has ongoing costs to keep it functioning and lacks the broodlings blocking ability to help keep units back from it. In a nut shell, it sucks. The carrier needs to be faster and micro-able and the interceptors need to be stronger and stay in combat while the carrier is manoeuvring. Reading the latest battle net blog on balance it looks like their hots testing isn't going particularly well. If they are looking at buffing the pheonix to deal with mutas before hots and keeping the carrier as was implied, then they are probably ditching the tempest. Honestly I can't see them keeping the replicator, and if someone can tell me how terran is meant to open with anything other than MM+ stim vs a protoss going 2gate robo observer, replicator that would be great. The carrier needs to be re purposed so that it integrates into the protoss army. Should it be an AA unit? Should we be getting 3 colossus and 2 carriers to protect them from vikings?. Should interceptors also function like pdd's sacrificing themselves to eat viking volleys (that would be pretty cool actually)? Or should we be thinking there are 2 protoss armies, robo and stargate like terran bio and mech where we pursue one tech path? The problem right now is that for what it is the carrier costs waaaay too much. it really is very similar to a broodlord except totally shit and expensive. On January 27 2012 08:20 Fleshcut wrote:
I don't see the point of fighting for a unit nobody uses just because it was good in BW or something... The concept of the carrier is great. It's the execution that sucks. Do you have a link to this blog? Good ideas on the carrier. Faster all around build/move and more microable. I don't think replactor is going anywhere. Solves blizz;z 1/1/1 problem without buffing Protoss or nerfing Terran. See 1/1/1 make seige tanks on top of your ramp GG. Protoss' whole problem with it is no early AOE and replicator solves that. Blog here! http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/210995/Questions_from_the_Community-1_25_2012#blogRead between the lines: The tempest isn't working out. + Show Spoiler +For all the reasons the community brought up the tempest can't work. At some point critical mass of tempest will mean vikings and corruptors can't kill colossus. the entire viking flock will just die in 1 or 2 shots leaving 4 to 6 colossus alive to kill everything on the ground. Nothing that can shoot up is strong enough to not melt in the face of 6 colossus which means the tempest have free reign to shoot whatever they want while the protoss players focuses on keeping those colossus alive. The gracious answer is to fix the current situation with mutas shutting down all options for protoss apart from getting a mothership, 200 supply army and base trading. Or being a Genius. So instead balance the muta / pheonix issue and keep the carrier and claim they are 'listening to the community' so they don't have to admit the tempest is a stupid idea. Off topic rant about how bad the replicator idea is. + Show Spoiler +Look at it from the terran point of view though.
If you open fast banshees, protoss has an observer and some stalkers to shut down your fast banshee AND they have a cloaked banshee to harass you with.
If you open Marine tank, protoss have a siged tank on the high ground
If you open medivac drop, protoss counter with a +1 armour zealot medivac drop. combine that with a WP and terran is screwed. those zealots are never going to die.
1/1/1, protoss have that siege tank AND banshees.
terran fast expand, protoss replicate an scv and expand to their nat with a CC and unlock the entire terran tech tree.
Protoss with mules, are we balanced yet?
Basically there is no opening that terran can do apart from a MM stim timing all in which won't give protoss an equal or greater advantage.
The only way to even approach balancing the replicator is to make it cost a gazllion resources and supply or have it far down the tech tree which breaks it's ability to counter the 111. So basically it's a stupid unit that won't work. Ever. Read between the lines? Sounds like a posters opinion about tempest not blizzards. I don't see anything wrt Tempest having issues in Blizz' mind yet. Protoss won't have gas for these defenses and counter attack. They still need stalkers to shoot air which cost gas while Terran can do it with gasless marines. The only thing Replicator does is allow those with an OBS a chance against 1/1/1. And even if it did shut down some of terran early game all ins it's not like I'd feel bad seeing games go later nor Terran given parity with protoss lack of all in options vs terran.
Of course it's my opinion only. But when the stated goal of the tempest is to do help protoss deal with huge muta flocks and blizz are talking about buffing pheonix to deal with muta and possibly keeping the carrier where does that leave the tempest?
Replicator would shut down ALL forms of terran aggression in the early game apart from mm+stim. Any tech at all could be exploited by the replicator.
Opening gate robo gate atm already gets you a few stalkers, an obs, an immortal, a sentry without too much stress. swap the immortal for a replicator and you have an unassailable position. And whatever the obs see's you get an advantage. Any tech gives you the same tech advantage, and if they are expanding you can turtle into a protoss terran hybrid 2 base. If anyone can explain to me how someone can lose when they can choose from any combination of units from the protoss and the terran army off 2+ bases...
Warp ins and PF ? mules, marines, medivacs and zealots? it's insane. Long games will equal protoss armies crushing everything. Early game is crippled by protoss getting an auto counter to whatever terran tech path becomes available.
I stand by my statement of "it's a stupid unit that won't work"
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On January 27 2012 15:41 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 11:11 Kharnage wrote:
Look at it from the terran point of view though.
If you open fast banshees, protoss has an observer and some stalkers to shut down your fast banshee AND they have a cloaked banshee to harass you with.
If you open Marine tank, protoss have a siged tank on the high ground
If you open medivac drop, protoss counter with a +1 armour zealot medivac drop. combine that with a WP and terran is screwed. those zealots are never going to die.
1/1/1, protoss have that siege tank AND banshees.
terran fast expand, protoss replicate an scv and expand to their nat with a CC and unlock the entire terran tech tree.
Protoss with mules, are we balanced yet?
Basically there is no opening that terran can do apart from a MM stim timing all in which won't give protoss an equal or greater advantage.
The only way to even approach balancing the replicator is to make it cost a gazllion resources and supply or have it far down the tech tree which breaks it's ability to counter the 111. So basically it's a stupid unit that won't work. Ever. You do realize replicator is a very expensive unit that comes from stargate, right?
It's from the robo, not the stargate.
If it's too expensive it will fail at accomplishing what blizz stated at blizzcon what it was intended to do. It will be expensive, but not so expensive you can't afford to get one with a 2 gate robo build and be safe, and then if you see no pressure coming like a fast expand build, you can replicate an scv and turtle and then get crazy compositions like blue flame hellion, immortal etc.
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On January 27 2012 14:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The carrier needs:
-Its own niche use
-The ability to be microed better
-To not be a unit that's only useful once the game is already won
-Something else exciting that isn't just lore (and I loved the carrier from BW, but that doesn't make it practical in SC2)
I would be extremely happy to see the carrier stick around for HotS if these changes could be implemented.
The Carrier would be awesome with a sacrifice Tassadar-style ability. Dealing massive AOE damage to (bio? non-protoss?) in a really big area with a huge blue wave of win. With an animation that took like 2-3 in-game seconds to load so it's not insta-win against a bio ball (let them stim and run, or the mutas fly away).
It could be great to defend Nexus and mineral lines from mass mutas, with a few cannons to clean the very red mutas. That way we wouldn't need the Tempest and we wouldn't miss the mothership's black hole ability either, since bloordlords are too slow to run from it 
For those who don't know about BW and Tassadar, think Vegeta's sacrifice attack against Buu ;D
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On January 27 2012 17:27 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 15:41 Inori wrote:On January 27 2012 11:11 Kharnage wrote:
Look at it from the terran point of view though.
If you open fast banshees, protoss has an observer and some stalkers to shut down your fast banshee AND they have a cloaked banshee to harass you with.
If you open Marine tank, protoss have a siged tank on the high ground
If you open medivac drop, protoss counter with a +1 armour zealot medivac drop. combine that with a WP and terran is screwed. those zealots are never going to die.
1/1/1, protoss have that siege tank AND banshees.
terran fast expand, protoss replicate an scv and expand to their nat with a CC and unlock the entire terran tech tree.
Protoss with mules, are we balanced yet?
Basically there is no opening that terran can do apart from a MM stim timing all in which won't give protoss an equal or greater advantage.
The only way to even approach balancing the replicator is to make it cost a gazllion resources and supply or have it far down the tech tree which breaks it's ability to counter the 111. So basically it's a stupid unit that won't work. Ever. You do realize replicator is a very expensive unit that comes from stargate, right? It's from the robo, not the stargate. If it's too expensive it will fail at accomplishing what blizz stated at blizzcon what it was intended to do. It will be expensive, but not so expensive you can't afford to get one with a 2 gate robo build and be safe, and then if you see no pressure coming like a fast expand build, you can replicate an scv and turtle and then get crazy compositions like blue flame hellion, immortal etc.
IIRC, Blizzard explicitly stated that you cannot replicate workers.
For those who don't know about BW and Tassadar, think Vegeta's sacrifice attack against Buu ;D
What if they don't know Dragonball either?
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Yeah no SCV. That would be crazy. Imagine charglot MMM
Kharnage if you do the math assuming replicator will be 200/200 there is no economics in doing anything other than tanks or banshees AND protoss will not have money to counter only defend which is it's intended use, primarly the 1/1/1 without giving protoss early AOE unit which will wreck PvZ. The reason 1/1/1 does not work vs Z is banes. Anyway we'll just have to see it play out and disagree for now.
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They need to morph the carrier and the mothership into something badass and keep it in the game.
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Mothership is bad ass maybe too much so but to confront the zerg death ball of infestor/brood I've seen no other counter. Wonder how they will address that in HOTS w/o MS..
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One thing is for sure:
Blizzard dont really know how to fix the Carrier. I mean if they knew they wouldnt present the Tempest in the first place. Of course not everything is final but they have put a lot of work in the Tempest and Its really doubtful whether they gonna drop it like an idea and focus on balancing the Carrier.
I really want the Carrier to stay because in my opinion a fixed Carrier would give you a hell of a more variety in late game compared to a ship who would be good only against a certain unit like the Tempest.
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I think that the carrier should stay ! I really love that unit, and it gets really good when u have +3 on air attacks, its almost a must to have upgrades for it.
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4713 Posts
While I did write a simmilar thread a while ago regarding the carrier, I still approve of the message from the OP. I don't want the carrier to be replaced by another borring A-move unit, it is a unic as iconic as the Battlecruiser, the Marine, Zealot or the Zergling, it deserves to be restored to its former glory.
As support to the OP, you can check out my previous thread as well, I think I've provided a lot pertinent arguments as to why the carrier can find a place in the Protoss arsenal. Hopefully it will convince many more that the carrier is worth saving.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290082
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I agree it's a powerful unit that most people just haven't experimented with enough. Some people use it at high levels as a legitimate late game strategy (particularly in PvZ, but also PvT and sometimes in PvP even). More importantly, it's an iconic unit that many newer players are very fond of, so it makes no sense to remove it when it helps attract players to the game.
Also, in HOTS it really appears as though Mech will be viable in TvP, which means carriers may well be needed.
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Just give Carriers a reverse hardened shield... Reduce all dmg to 1 if its below a certain dmg (some ideas on what exact number are needed) as long as it has shields. Reason for this is simple. Its a freaking capital ship. It shouldn't die to some redneck shooting it with his pulse rifle. You would need to use some massive units killers to effectively fight them... Like corruptors or BC.
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I dont know why blizz is taking out these units (mothership and carrier).I think they do it because they dont see these units in esports competitions.But they should think about some of the lower skill player who play this game just to have fun and build them more often. In the end this game has a pretty large player base and not all of them care about being top players.
Maybe they should just buff the units and we would see them more often.
Some of the new units in hots are pretty lame, like that oracle thing.You can see what a player is building if you look in his base: rax+reactor..i wonder what he is building? OMG..i cant belive, its marines...
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I'd love to see somekind of change to the carrier itself since it is not as useful as it was in BW. I'd rather see colossus removed from the game, not that it is op or something, but it's way too booring unit to control.
Supporting in the fight to save our beloved Carrier :3 !
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4713 Posts
The reason they are removing the mothership is logical, and I agree with it perfectly. They don't find it right that, the most expensive and cost effective army of the zerg, can be annihilated in 10 seconds by the archon toilet. But, as Grubby said at HSC4, the Protoss also doesn't have much of an answer to Brood Lord, Infestor, Roach, they need the MS to fight that, so its a case of needing one evil to counter another.
I actually don't see how PvZ late game can be resolved, the carrier isn't the response, since its so easy for the zerg to also get Corrupters in that composition, and fungal not only freezes the carrier, but also stops and kills interceptors.
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They should add some sort of upgrade to benefit the carrier in the fleet beacon because as it stands, the building is kind of just a waste of space. Would be interesting to give it some utility in helping improve the carrier. Maybe an upgrade to increase the shield regeneration rate? Then if they made the carrier more microable, it could gain massive amounts of shield back while retreating.
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I feel the carrier should not be supposed to counter anything directly. To me, they should be a core unit like the stalker or the marine, just for endgame.
Generally good against anything for a siege weapon, mobile enough to be nimble in a various number of situations, meaty and powerful enough to stand its ground on its own most of the times.
Where blizzard fails is in considering it as a support unit only, like casters or something high tier, that is highly specialized against specific unit types.
I strongly agree that the skill ceiling for the sc2 carrier should be higher, more micro possibilities, more incentives for stargate t3. (reduce the cost for the beacon, and increase the build time of the mothership to offset that if it is op or something).
As for numbers, making it so carriers don't suffer that much from fighting against heavily armor upgraded units would be helpful (they are supposed to be fielded in the mid late game, units at that point are well upgraded already),
An acceleration tweak could be interesting too, expecially in the micro department.
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Biggest problem with Carriers is just that Interceptors die soooo easily. That combine with reduced armor (from 4 to 2 compared to BW), smart firing, slow movement, and extremely strong ranged anti air (Vikings at ranged 9, Corruptors with Corruption, and lolmarines) just make the unit impractical without a complete overhaul.
If they can take their time to redesign carrier so that it is a practical unit with today's technology (since it has changed so much from Broodwar), that'll be better than bandaid fix stuff.
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EPT
