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On January 16 2012 18:31 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind. Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc). On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation. Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job. When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2. Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros......... Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming. Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc.. I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT. Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late. I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
exactly, and don't say sports players get paid a lot too. Again, by the time you get to MLB, NHL, NBA, etc. you are already at the tip top of the professional level already. So many many many fail at the amateur level and make next to no money.
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Funny how you guys only mention what sleep and sangho wanted for salary, but never discussed how much the team would profit in sponsorship money due to these players etc
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On January 16 2012 18:35 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
Funny how you guys only mention what sleep and sangho wanted for salary, but never discussed how much the team would profit in sponsorship money due to these players etc
Hint: It's not what they are asking. That's why they are unsigned while players like HuK or IdrA get signed for huge salaries.
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On January 16 2012 18:17 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:15 MooLen wrote:
Just a simpe question. Why would anyone leave a known korean team if he doesnt know what the future will bring to him?? Most likely, SlayerS is down sizing as contracts expire because they no longer have the $150,000 that Intel gave them for 2011.
Woow, the money fade away more slowly than i expected because Boxer got over 1 year ago. Food, engergie costs, players didnt cost as much as i expected.
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On January 16 2012 18:35 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
Funny how you guys only mention what sleep and sangho wanted for salary, but never discussed how much the team would profit in sponsorship money due to these players etc
except usually sponsoring koreans except for the very top tier ones doesnt work out in the foreign scene. Not everyone is a Slayers Boxer or MC where personality you can sell to foreigners. Sure you could have a player like IMMVP on a team where people watch him cause he is a monster but if he ever goes into a huge slump people may forget him easily. Whereas someone who is a korean with huge marketability like a Boxer, or MC, you can be okay even when they slump because they are so marketable. Sangho really doesn't have a big foreign following and isn't nearly as dominant as a player like MVP to attract fans based on pure talent and not so much a personality that would relate to foreign fans. Its not easy for foreigners to feel connected to koreans where as its much easier to like or hate an idra or huk because you can relate to them regardless of how their play is doing.
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people are reading way too much into this. I think golden's english failed him here. He doesnt know the slang of what "kick out" means so he says leave. pray for me is in regards to the suddenness of it.
i dont believe he "left" slayers to pursue the mounds of gold outside of korea. people are being a little to judgmental 
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On January 16 2012 18:44 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:31 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind. Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc). On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation. Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job. When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2. Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros......... Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming. Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc.. I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT. Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late. I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp. Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard. Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing. TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
You have a very warped sense of reality.
Also to throw this out there, Destiny cleaned carpets, CatZ was a waiter (iirc), and iNcontoL worked at Gamestop all before SC2. I could probably come up with many examples but being good at SC2 does not make you a rocket scientist lololol...........
Get off your high horse and let people live their lives the way they want. Who the hell are you to lecture them for pursuing a dream?
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On January 16 2012 18:30 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote:
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming. However in said industries you are not swamped with opportunities to make $50k+ in a weekend, on a frequent basis. This is no different from ANY pro sport, the best make the most, the rest have to risk it to make it big.
The difference is that making it in ESports means you make less money than ANY pro-fessional NFL or Soccer (Europe) Player. Because the industry is way bigger, you can easily find a job after your professional sports career in the same or a near field. May-be we are at the beginning of Esports getting the same conditions as pro sports, but for now being only a progamer is in most cases a bad decision.
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Don't really know what to say, haven't got any real knowledge to comment on this very interesting thread.
All i can say is, good luck to Golden, Dragon and SlayerS! <3
Oh, and we should really keep doing stuff like TB did, with tips for the players, if alot of them are making very little! we could easily support the players more as a community imo
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On January 16 2012 18:31 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind. Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc). On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation. Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job. When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2. Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros......... Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming. Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc.. I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT. Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late. I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
I don't know. I think on average most of these guys would've had comfortable upper middle class careers if they worked as hard at school as they do with SC2. 8+ hours a day, every day, that would likely produce good grades.
Would a few of them become doctors or something and made big money like MVP did last year? Entirely possible.
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On January 16 2012 18:48 Zenic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:30 Diamond wrote:On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote:
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming. However in said industries you are not swamped with opportunities to make $50k+ in a weekend, on a frequent basis. This is no different from ANY pro sport, the best make the most, the rest have to risk it to make it big. The difference is that making it in ESports means you make less money than ANY pro-fessional NFL or Soccer (Europe) Player. Because the industry is way bigger, you can easily find a job after your professional sports career in the same or a near field. May-be we are at the beginning of Esports getting the same conditions as pro sports, but for now being only a progamer is in most cases a bad decision.
Did not stop thousands of MMA fighters from dedicating their life to a sport back when no one made shit. Now the top guys that have been around forever make millions. If SC2 continues to grow, this trend will follow.
Everyone is too focused on today, look long term if this sport continues to grow.
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On January 16 2012 18:47 snowhell wrote:people are reading way too much into this. I think golden's english failed him here. He doesnt know the slang of what "kick out" means so he says leave. pray for me is in regards to the suddenness of it. i dont believe he "left" slayers to pursue the mounds of gold outside of korea. people are being a little to judgmental
SlayerS tweet just in time to make you wrong!  Had to post it since it was perfect timing, sorry!
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On January 16 2012 18:35 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
Funny how you guys only mention what sleep and sangho wanted for salary, but never discussed how much the team would profit in sponsorship money due to these players etc
Uh, teams won't profit in sponsorship money from any of those guys. I'd rather give that money to one of Liquid's players, or one of EG's players.
EG and Liquid are the smartest teams, and have created likable (well, IdrA's badboy personality is just as good), marketable personalities that are also competitive-level and tournament winning capable.
A random Korean player really won't benefit your team at all. Most sponsors are Western, they don't really care about guys living in Korea who don't speak English. A player like TLO is infinitely more profitable/marketable than a guy like Sangho, despite the fact that I'm sure Sangho is a better SC2 player.
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On January 16 2012 18:44 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:31 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind. Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc). On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation. Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job. When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2. Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros......... Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming. Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc.. I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT. Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late. I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp. Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard. Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing. TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
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On January 16 2012 18:51 Phobbers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:47 snowhell wrote:people are reading way too much into this. I think golden's english failed him here. He doesnt know the slang of what "kick out" means so he says leave. pray for me is in regards to the suddenness of it. i dont believe he "left" slayers to pursue the mounds of gold outside of korea. people are being a little to judgmental https://twitter.com/#!/teamslayers/status/158848367429042177SlayerS tweet just in time to make you wrong! Had to post it since it was perfect timing, sorry!
i'll take that as slayers follows my posts. no big deal
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This thread has turned out to be significantly more informative than I would have ever expected it to be
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On January 16 2012 18:44 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:31 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind. Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc). On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation. Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job. When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2. Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros......... Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming. Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc.. I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT. Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late. I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp. Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard. Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing. TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
On January 16 2012 18:49 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:31 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind. Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc). On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation. Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job. When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2. Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros......... Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming. Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc.. I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT. Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late. I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp. I don't know. I think on average most of these guys would've had comfortable upper middle class careers if they worked as hard at school as they do with SC2. 8+ hours a day, every day, that would likely produce good grades. Would a few of them become doctors or something and made big money like MVP did last year? Entirely possible.
Both you guys need to listen to what Diamond just said.
In addition to those guys I know HD Starcraft worked as a waiter, a lot of the Koreans came from poor families.
I really don't think either have full time jobs and actually know what real life is like. You don't just waltz into a 50k a year job. Nevermind the 250k Mvp made last year.
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On January 16 2012 18:56 Dommk wrote:
This thread has turned out to be significantly more informative than I would have ever expected it to be
This thread has turned out to be significantly more off topic than I would have ever expected it to be
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EPT
