It looks like Golden of SlayerS has decided to leave to look for a foreign team (much like Sleep did). Although he has not achieved a lot, he is a solid player and as long as his requests are reasonable, I can imagine quite a few foreign teams that would like to have him on board.
I'd put more, but that's about all I have.
Mod Edit: Dragon has left SlayerS as well
On January 16 2012 17:42 OKScottish wrote:
Dragon just posted on his twitter that he has left SlayerS.
Many koreans think that there are riches abroad but he is a no-name korean and will be hard pressed to get any decent money. I'm sure a foreign team will pick him up but the amount they will be willing to pay will be far below what he's expecting.
Golden is a fairly solid player. He has shown some excellent play during his games in the IPL Team Arena. I look at him much like how I look at Hero and Puma, fantastic players who are very solid, but sadly crumble against top tier Koreans.
Also, another Korean looking to venture out into the foreigner scene to make it big. I can only hope this doesn't become the norm for B-Team Koreans.
Although, I would be glad to see Golden at a few MLGs and what not!
Edit:
On January 16 2012 16:39 Azzur wrote: Many koreans think that there are riches abroad but he is a no-name korean and will be hard pressed to get any decent money. I'm sure a foreign team will pick him up but the amount they will be willing to pay will be far below what he's expecting.
I wouldn't call him a "no-name Korean", he was played quite a bit in the IPL Team Arena and did quite the job.
Good luck to SlayerS, I'm not quite sure who'd pick him up to be honest. None of the major teams come to mind, but I hope to be proven wrong. I like Golden a lot.
Hmm, I think he had a lot of potential on SlayerS, (keeping in mind theres HuK and IdrA as partners as well), but interesting choice Best of luck to him, I hope he can get what he sets out looking for
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
This is absolutely true, most of the Koreans you see here on TL with the "I'm leaving my awesome Korean team to find a foreign team," usually have the following:
a) little/no significant results b) very unrealistic expectations of how much money foreigners have c) even more unrealistic salary expectations d) little / no desire to actually go out and find a team (they just expect offers to come to them)
Apparently this is bad form, but it's been quoted anywho... welp ~_~
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
It seems smarter to me to train in Korea and take advantage of the SlayerS practice environment for a little longer, but I'm no expert. I can't imagine any team is gonna be jumping at the opportunity to sign a no-name Korean for big bucks, which is what worries me.
Very disappointing announcement, I'd have liked to see him stay with Slayers as they clearly valued him in the team-leagues.
I don't think Golden is on anyone's list of players to pick up as a foreign team. Like Sleep, I'd love to offer him a spot on the Clash roster, but there is simply no way we can offer players like them what they expect from leaving a Korean team to join a foreign team.
eS seems like it would be the only team with the financial ability to pick him up, considering that they were going to sign pepe until he turned out to not be pepe.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Wow those are pretty high numbers. 0_o
Anyone that pays $3k for SangHo is out of their minds.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Wow those are pretty high numbers. 0_o
Anyone that pays $3k for SangHo is out of their minds.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Wow those are pretty high numbers. 0_o
Anyone that pays $3k for SangHo is out of their minds.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Wow those are pretty high numbers. 0_o
Anyone that pays $3k for SangHo is out of their minds.
It seems to me like all of the players who attempt to join foreign teams think they're worth a lot more than they actually are. They will probably be disappointed when the offers are smaller, and their play usually gets worse from lack of a good training environment. Rain used to be a GSL finalist, now he's about as good as an average Korean terran. Probably not even that good.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Wow those are pretty high numbers. 0_o
Anyone that pays $3k for SangHo is out of their minds.
Hence why neither of them have found teams.
YAY FINALLY SOME INSIGHT INTO SALARIES THAT PLAYERS MAKE AND OUR ARE LOOKING FOR THANK YOU
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Wow those are pretty high numbers. 0_o
Anyone that pays $3k for SangHo is out of their minds.
Hence why neither of them have found teams.
YAY FINALLY SOME INSIGHT INTO SALARIES THAT PLAYERS MAKE AND OUR ARE LOOKING FOR THANK YOU
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Wow those are pretty high numbers. 0_o
Anyone that pays $3k for SangHo is out of their minds.
Hence why neither of them have found teams.
YAY FINALLY SOME INSIGHT INTO SALARIES THAT PLAYERS MAKE AND OUR ARE LOOKING FOR THANK YOU
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kenniget's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Are those figures monthly? Just curious, since I know nothing of SC2 progamer salaries (and have always been a bit curious).
Yeah, they want way too much money...but I'm a big fan of Golden and hopefully someone picks him up. I wish he would elaborate on why he left, but I guess it doesn't matter.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Are those figures monthly? Just curious, since I know nothing of SC2 progamer salaries (and have always been a bit curious).
edit: nvm, answered.
Monthly (not daily, lulz :D)
Those figures are NOT close to being what most pros actually make, mind you.
Salary ranges are like:
GOD1 -- probably an even ungodlier amount! (jk i actually have no clue, but I'm making an assumption that his personal intel sponsorship is huge)
GOD2 -- ungodly amount
TIER 1 players -- around 30-50k per year range (rough estimate)
TIER 2 -- around 15-25k per year range
High skilled but less "famous" pros (aka TIER 3) -- probably 5-10k per year range
Disclaimer: I actually have no idea what the actual player salaries are. These are rough estimates based on other information I know, and could be totally wrong. The only numbers I actually know are the salary requests of people like X AND Y because I've looked into recruiting them.
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
This is absolutely true, most of the Koreans you see here on TL with the "I'm leaving my awesome Korean team to find a foreign team," usually have the following:
a) little/no significant results b) very unrealistic expectations of how much money foreigners have c) even more unrealistic salary expectations d) little / no desire to actually go out and find a team (they just expect offers to come to them)
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
So $1.5k-3k is alot for a decent korean? Man, seems like everyone but the most popular (Huk/Idra/Destiny) or the winners (code S koreans) earn shit in SC2. :D
It's not just about salary. It's about participating in foreign events. SlayerS won't send a B roster zerg to foreign tournaments, but a foreign team would. A lot of these guys can't make it into the GSL. Join a foreign team and you get to participate a lot more. It's somewhat of a double edged sword, really. What good is being a pro gamer if you can't compete in tournaments? But then you're probably only bringing down your skill level in the future and looking for mediocre results.
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
3k/month is the obvious answer. 3k/day would be a 1.1 million dollar contract... no team is dealing with anything on that order of magnitude. And Kennigit's response seems to be him disagreeing with Xeris posting personal information about a privately negotiated contract between Sang-ho and a team that he is no longer associated with. It comes across as a bit unprofessional, since it clearly wasn't public news. Interesting though, I didn't know what A- level koreans were asking.
Most pro contracts have the salary + sponsor gear + flights paid for. I'm sure some people who go to Korea also have living expenses paid.
So MOSTLY, the salary is just pocketed by the player. Plus if youre a pro, realistically you are: in your late teens / early 20's... don't have much to spend your money on anyways, so making anywhere from 10-50k is pretty sick and much more than most people of comparable age make unless they're engineers
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I cant really articulate how inappropriate i think it is to release information you learned while under the employment of a company, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances.
Yep I agree. What's more is it just puts these players in nothing but a negative light. I like the info, but morally it's pretty fucking wrong to whine about shit like that on a public forum.
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
People talking about how 1.5K a month is minimum wage need to realize that in the end, the community can only support what it can support..and that is definitely not every single full-time player making 50K a year..it's just not feasible. You also need to realize that is just pure salary, that doesn't include travel, accommodations, registration or anything else.
On January 16 2012 16:59 Xeris wrote: Most pro contracts have the salary + sponsor gear + flights paid for. I'm sure some people who go to Korea also have living expenses paid.
So MOSTLY, the salary is just pocketed by the player. Plus if youre a pro, realistically you are: in your late teens / early 20's... don't have much to spend your money on anyways, so making anywhere from 10-50k is pretty sick and much more than most people of comparable age make unless they're engineers
I make 34k/year in the military. + free college :D
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Hm i don't think it is confidential :/
If no NDA, then it's fine !
i said inappropriate. Not illegal. Would you hire someone who you know will release your trade secrets publicly? Its how you get blackballed in industries - happens regularly.
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I cant really articulate how inappropriate i think it is to release information you learned while under the employment of a company, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances.
Yea not exactly the most professional thing to do.
Those salary requests are (not?) surprisingly low. The fact they are considered unreasonable shows how far esports has to go.
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Hmm, I'm not releasing (nor do I know) actual $ figures of anyone's contracts, I'm just outlining what most people say players make. I also don't see the necessary harm in stating what a player might be asking for, although I guess I see your point ~_~!
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
In other pro sports, contracts are (at least in most sports) public information, to protect the rights of players. I understand that it's in the team's best interest to keep contracts private, but what if we found out that EG was paying their players with similar results 5 times as much as Liquid? That's not fair to the players at all. Some transparency is necessary if we're going to have players compensated fairly.
edit: I guess it doesn't need to be broadcasted publicly in this way but it shouldn't be something that's suppressed
On January 16 2012 16:59 Xeris wrote: Most pro contracts have the salary + sponsor gear + flights paid for. I'm sure some people who go to Korea also have living expenses paid.
So MOSTLY, the salary is just pocketed by the player. Plus if youre a pro, realistically you are: in your late teens / early 20's... don't have much to spend your money on anyways, so making anywhere from 10-50k is pretty sick and much more than most people of comparable age make unless they're engineers
Lol, you think this is just a hobby because they're young? Do you know the definition of professional? They're trying to make a living. Most of them don't attend school, or have a side job. They do this 8-12 hours a day 6 days a week. Job security is very low as well. If I made 20k a year for 5 years while working that hard and most likely no future once you get passed up (unless you're god damn boxer) I wouldn't say I was successful. They've got no other source of income unless you stream daily with a couple thousand viewers, and they aren't preparing for a career like engineering.
It's important to realize short term careers like sports and esports. Even though some athletes make a lot of money, your career is over after 15 years. You gotta either pick up some work skills along the way, or make enough in your short career to make it worthwhile.
The money just isn't there though in esports, that's the thing.
On January 16 2012 17:01 KeyHunt wrote: People talking about how 1.5K a month is minimum wage need to realize that in the end, the community can only support what it can support..and that is definitely not every single full-time player making 50K a year..it's just not feasible. You also need to realize that is just pure salary, that doesn't include travel, accommodations, registration or anything else.
That's the same for every salaried job. Benefits/taxes add a huge amount of cost to employees. Travel/accomodations/registration for SC2 players is nothing.
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
In other pro sports, contracts are (at least in most sports) public information, to protect the rights of players. I understand that it's in the team's best interest to keep contracts private, but what if we found out that EG was paying their players with similar results 5 times as much as Liquid? That's not fair to the players at all. Some transparency is necessary if we're going to have players compensated fairly.
edit: I guess it doesn't need to be broadcasted publicly in this way but it shouldn't be something that's suppressed
This. Right now everything is weighted in the Teams favor, if anything players should want their finances out there.
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
In other pro sports, contracts are (at least in most sports) public information, to protect the rights of players. I understand that it's in the team's best interest to keep contracts private, but what if we found out that EG was paying their players with similar results 5 times as much as Liquid? That's not fair to the players at all. Some transparency is necessary if we're going to have players compensated fairly.
edit: I guess it doesn't need to be broadcasted publicly in this way but it shouldn't be something that's suppressed
If this community decided what was "fair" then every organization would be broke as dirt lol. It's not just the players that have a complete disconnect from reality, it's the community to when it comes to how much players are worth, get, deserve, etc.
This thread got so hijacked by Xeris, haha. It's reminding me of when HuK went to EG and the debate about keeping salaries public or private was debated (I wanna say I remember specifically on SotG). Xeris just went "screw that"
Either way, even if it's not specific, the general ballpark figures are still interesting. Even if some are going to look at you revealing that in a negative, as just an average joe I appreciate the knowledge.
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
In other pro sports, contracts are (at least in most sports) public information, to protect the rights of players. I understand that it's in the team's best interest to keep contracts private, but what if we found out that EG was paying their players with similar results 5 times as much as Liquid? That's not fair to the players at all. Some transparency is necessary if we're going to have players compensated fairly.
edit: I guess it doesn't need to be broadcasted publicly in this way but it shouldn't be something that's suppressed
If this community decided what was "fair" then every organization would be broke as dirt lol. It's not just the players that have a complete disconnect from reality, it's the community to when it comes to how much players are worth, get, deserve, etc.
thank you! And for reference, all of the teams and players know what each other make within a ball park - no player is under some NDA about his contract and everyone lets every team know when their contracts are up. The industry isn't at a stage where its worth making it public.
On January 16 2012 16:59 Xeris wrote: Most pro contracts have the salary + sponsor gear + flights paid for. I'm sure some people who go to Korea also have living expenses paid.
So MOSTLY, the salary is just pocketed by the player. Plus if youre a pro, realistically you are: in your late teens / early 20's... don't have much to spend your money on anyways, so making anywhere from 10-50k is pretty sick and much more than most people of comparable age make unless they're engineers
10-50k is far from sick considering the living conditions in the team houses + saving for retirement (and no matching from employer) + paying for own benefits + the limited earning window in the career.
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Hmm, I'm not releasing (nor do I know) actual $ figures of anyone's contracts, I'm just outlining what most people say players make. I also don't see the necessary harm in stating what a player might be asking for, although I guess I see your point ~_~!
Yeah, I agree, Xeris, you haven't really released any figures that would in anway compromise fnatic, or any other team.
You just outlined what sleep and sangho were asking for, and rumors of what you've heard other players have made.
this whole discussion on salary definitely piques my interest.
Sure, Golden might not win Dreamhack but didn't Sjow win alot of cash just cruising through alot of smaller tournaments online? I'm guessing Golden should be able to win alot of those.
On January 16 2012 16:59 Xeris wrote: Most pro contracts have the salary + sponsor gear + flights paid for. I'm sure some people who go to Korea also have living expenses paid.
So MOSTLY, the salary is just pocketed by the player. Plus if youre a pro, realistically you are: in your late teens / early 20's... don't have much to spend your money on anyways, so making anywhere from 10-50k is pretty sick and much more than most people of comparable age make unless they're engineers
Lol, you think this is just a hobby because they're young? Do you know the definition of professional? They're trying to make a living. Most of them don't attend school, or have a side job. They do this 8-12 hours a day 6 days a week. Job security is very low as well. If I made 20k a year for 5 years while working that hard and most likely no future once you get passed up (unless you're god damn boxer) I wouldn't say I was successful. They've got no other source of income unless you stream daily with a couple thousand viewers, and they aren't preparing for a career like engineering.
The money just isn't there though, that's the thing.
The risks you stated all come with the territory of pro-gaming. I'm sure all the pros knew them before dedicating themselves, and if they did not that's their fault. Xeris simply stated that the higher earning pros are doing fine.
On January 16 2012 16:59 Xeris wrote: Most pro contracts have the salary + sponsor gear + flights paid for. I'm sure some people who go to Korea also have living expenses paid.
So MOSTLY, the salary is just pocketed by the player. Plus if youre a pro, realistically you are: in your late teens / early 20's... don't have much to spend your money on anyways, so making anywhere from 10-50k is pretty sick and much more than most people of comparable age make unless they're engineers
Lol, you think this is just a hobby because they're young? Do you know the definition of professional? They're trying to make a living. Most of them don't attend school, or have a side job. They do this 8-12 hours a day 6 days a week. Job security is very low as well. If I made 20k a year for 5 years while working that hard and most likely no future once you get passed up (unless you're god damn boxer) I wouldn't say I was successful. They've got no other source of income unless you stream daily with a couple thousand viewers, and they aren't preparing for a career like engineering.
The money just isn't there though, that's the thing.
Almost 0 players in eSports will be able to retire off their winnings/salary when they quit gaming. You're looking at this from too much of a real-world perspective.
Based on your argument, only Boxer-esque players should even bother being pros because almost nobody is going to make enough to retire
If this community decided what was "fair" then every organization would be broke as dirt lol. It's not just the players that have a complete disconnect from reality, it's the community to when it comes to how much players are worth, get, deserve, etc.
I'm not saying the community should decide player salaries, that would be stupid. The community doesn't know how much money the organizations have, and we don't know how business works, collectively. I just think that players have a right to know what other teams are paying people of their skill level, because in pretty much any other industry there's a standard payscale.
If I'm a med student and some hospital wants to hire me for $25k a year, I can look at that and say "hey bullshit" because I know other doctors make more than that. If I'm a progamer who just burst onto the scene and won a tournament out of nowhere, I would have no fucking idea what other players of my skill level are making, because it's such a new industry and everything is kept under wraps.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
If this is true thats hilarious actually. Sleep plays playhems and z33k cups regularly and loses to no names quite often. sangho is 2 games away from being out of code A and the GSL completely. someone should get something posted on playxp about unreal expectations
If this community decided what was "fair" then every organization would be broke as dirt lol. It's not just the players that have a complete disconnect from reality, it's the community to when it comes to how much players are worth, get, deserve, etc.
I'm not saying the community should decide player salaries, that would be stupid. The community doesn't know how much money the organizations have, and we don't know how business works, collectively. I just think that players have a right to know what other teams are paying people of their skill level, because in pretty much any other industry there's a standard payscale.
Your statement implies that because you dont know, that the players dont know. They do know how much each other make. Do you think they dont talk to each other?
I don't really see why everyone is reacting to Xeris like this o.O
I'm not anywhere near influential and I already knew both the number for Sleep and SangHo's desired salaries. It's not like it was some large well-kept secret by Fnatic or anything...
thank you! And for reference, all of the teams and players know what each other make within a ball park - no player is under some NDA about his contract and everyone lets every team know when their contracts are up. The industry isn't at a stage where its worth making it public.
I didn't know that it was generally known in the pro player community what player salaries are, my apologies. As long as the players know what a fair salary is, I could give two shits whether or not the community at large knows, since that doesn't matter at all.
Your statement implies that because you dont know, that the players dont know. They do know how much each other make
If this community decided what was "fair" then every organization would be broke as dirt lol. It's not just the players that have a complete disconnect from reality, it's the community to when it comes to how much players are worth, get, deserve, etc.
I'm not saying the community should decide player salaries, that would be stupid. The community doesn't know how much money the organizations have, and we don't know how business works, collectively. I just think that players have a right to know what other teams are paying people of their skill level, because in pretty much any other industry there's a standard payscale.
Your statement implies that because you dont know, that the players dont know. They do know how much each other make. Do you think they dont talk to each other?
I can second this. Almost every players salary I know I learned from other players that talk to them.
If this community decided what was "fair" then every organization would be broke as dirt lol. It's not just the players that have a complete disconnect from reality, it's the community to when it comes to how much players are worth, get, deserve, etc.
I'm not saying the community should decide player salaries, that would be stupid. The community doesn't know how much money the organizations have, and we don't know how business works, collectively. I just think that players have a right to know what other teams are paying people of their skill level, because in pretty much any other industry there's a standard payscale.
Your statement implies that because you dont know, that the players dont know. They do know how much each other make.
Most of the numbers, generally speaking have been around TL quite a bit ... obviously it's not specifics. I don't even know how much specifically people make outside of a small handful, but I know rough figures , and I've seen them on TL quite a bit whenever salaries are discussed.
I can see how you disagree with what I said earlier, although it's obviously not my intention to do anything bad, I was merely trying to highlight the fact that Koreans have very unrealistic expectations on how much money foreign teams have to offer.
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
In other pro sports, contracts are (at least in most sports) public information, to protect the rights of players. I understand that it's in the team's best interest to keep contracts private, but what if we found out that EG was paying their players with similar results 5 times as much as Liquid? That's not fair to the players at all. Some transparency is necessary if we're going to have players compensated fairly.
edit: I guess it doesn't need to be broadcasted publicly in this way but it shouldn't be something that's suppressed
If this community decided what was "fair" then every organization would be broke as dirt lol. It's not just the players that have a complete disconnect from reality, it's the community to when it comes to how much players are worth, get, deserve, etc.
thank you! And for reference, all of the teams and players know what each other make within a ball park - no player is under some NDA about his contract and everyone lets every team know when their contracts are up. The industry isn't at a stage where its worth making it public.
so what is a point where salaries should be made public to protect the players? how do you draw that line?
On January 16 2012 16:59 Xeris wrote: Most pro contracts have the salary + sponsor gear + flights paid for. I'm sure some people who go to Korea also have living expenses paid.
So MOSTLY, the salary is just pocketed by the player. Plus if youre a pro, realistically you are: in your late teens / early 20's... don't have much to spend your money on anyways, so making anywhere from 10-50k is pretty sick and much more than most people of comparable age make unless they're engineers
Lol, you think this is just a hobby because they're young? Do you know the definition of professional? They're trying to make a living. Most of them don't attend school, or have a side job. They do this 8-12 hours a day 6 days a week. Job security is very low as well. If I made 20k a year for 5 years while working that hard and most likely no future once you get passed up (unless you're god damn boxer) I wouldn't say I was successful. They've got no other source of income unless you stream daily with a couple thousand viewers, and they aren't preparing for a career like engineering.
The money just isn't there though, that's the thing.
Almost 0 players in eSports will be able to retire off their winnings/salary when they quit gaming. You're looking at this from too much of a real-world perspective.
Based on your argument, only Boxer-esque players should even bother being pros because almost nobody is going to make enough to retire
Not really trying to argue anything here, just stating it how it is.
thank you! And for reference, all of the teams and players know what each other make within a ball park - no player is under some NDA about his contract and everyone lets every team know when their contracts are up. The industry isn't at a stage where its worth making it public.
I didn't know that it was generally known in the pro player community what player salaries are, my apologies. As long as the players know what a fair salary is, I could give two shits whether or not the community at large knows, since that doesn't matter at all.
Then we are set. Like for example, every player that is good/popular enough to cause a bidding war between teams will have a pretty "public" (industry wise) salary just by virtue of word of mouth. The fact that Xeris knows 1.5/3k is evidence enough. Its not uncommon for players to overvalue themselves. Its also not uncommon for teams to overpay. In general, theres a lot of room for growth, but its not an unfair system by any means - there are lots of players, lots of teams and a pretty regular cycle of contracts ending.
On January 16 2012 17:11 VirgilSC2 wrote: I don't really see why everyone is reacting to Xeris like this o.O
I'm not anywhere near influential and I already knew both the number for Sleep and SangHo's desired salaries. It's not like it was some large well-kept secret by Fnatic or anything...
It actually has nothing to do with Fnatic at all, I just was working with Fnatic at the time I found the figures out, which is why I mentioned it... it's not like Fnatic shared this secret with me that I then posted here, it came about by me asking if they were available because I was interested in seeing if I could recruit them, finding out what they were asking for, then realizing it was too much T_T
On January 16 2012 17:11 VirgilSC2 wrote: I don't really see why everyone is reacting to Xeris like this o.O
I'm not anywhere near influential and I already knew both the number for Sleep and SangHo's desired salaries. It's not like it was some large well-kept secret by Fnatic or anything...
It actually has nothing to do with Fnatic at all, I just was working with Fnatic at the time I found the figures out, which is why I mentioned it... it's not like Fnatic shared this secret with me that I then posted here, it came about by me asking if they were available because I was interested in seeing if I could recruit them, finding out what they were asking for, then realizing it was too much T_T
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Wow those are pretty high numbers. 0_o
Anyone that pays $3k for SangHo is out of their minds.
On January 16 2012 16:59 Xeris wrote: Most pro contracts have the salary + sponsor gear + flights paid for. I'm sure some people who go to Korea also have living expenses paid.
So MOSTLY, the salary is just pocketed by the player. Plus if youre a pro, realistically you are: in your late teens / early 20's... don't have much to spend your money on anyways, so making anywhere from 10-50k is pretty sick and much more than most people of comparable age make unless they're engineers
Lol, you think this is just a hobby because they're young? Do you know the definition of professional? They're trying to make a living. Most of them don't attend school, or have a side job. They do this 8-12 hours a day 6 days a week. Job security is very low as well. If I made 20k a year for 5 years while working that hard and most likely no future once you get passed up (unless you're god damn boxer) I wouldn't say I was successful. They've got no other source of income unless you stream daily with a couple thousand viewers, and they aren't preparing for a career like engineering.
The money just isn't there though, that's the thing.
Almost 0 players in eSports will be able to retire off their winnings/salary when they quit gaming. You're looking at this from too much of a real-world perspective.
Based on your argument, only Boxer-esque players should even bother being pros because almost nobody is going to make enough to retire
Not really trying to argue anything here, just stating it how it is.
Yea of course, for 90% of people, it makes more sense to go to school, get a "normal" job, and make money that way. But if everyone thought that way, there's be only 10 progamers and SC2 would be really, really boring!
Plus, if eSports ever grows to become mainstream and players start making millions of dollars... then it WILL become a viable dream and it WILL become possible for players to retire off salary/tournament winnings.
A certain team leader is loaded enough to rent out a whole movie theatre just to have a date with his lovely girlfriend.... that's pretty baller if you ask me.
On January 16 2012 17:07 karpo wrote: Sure, Golden might not win Dreamhack but didn't Sjow win alot of cash just cruising through alot of smaller tournaments online? I'm guessing Golden should be able to win alot of those.
I think most of SjoWs winnings came from bigger Lans (IEM Kiev, The Gathering, IeSF World Championship) or local lans. He won a ton of online cups too and made a couple thousand dollars from them but that get's pretty much dwarfed by the 12k $ from IeSF :p
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Are those figures monthly? Just curious, since I know nothing of SC2 progamer salaries (and have always been a bit curious).
edit: nvm, answered.
Monthly (not daily, lulz :D)
Those figures are NOT close to being what most pros actually make, mind you.
Salary ranges are like:
GOD1 -- probably an even ungodlier amount! (jk i actually have no clue, but I'm making an assumption that his personal intel sponsorship is huge)
GOD2 -- ungodly amount
TIER 1 players -- around 30-50k per year range (rough estimate)
TIER 2 -- around 15-25k per year range
High skilled but less "famous" pros (aka TIER 3) -- probably 5-10k per year range
Disclaimer: I actually have no idea what the actual player salaries are. These are rough estimates based on other information I know, and could be totally wrong. The only numbers I actually know are the salary requests of people like X AND Y because I've looked into recruiting them.
Wow I actually thought players made alot more then that, even tho its a rough estimate. I think I could actually sponsor a team by myself =o still tho, there's alot of t1/god2 players out there!
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Are those figures monthly? Just curious, since I know nothing of SC2 progamer salaries (and have always been a bit curious).
edit: nvm, answered.
Monthly (not daily, lulz :D)
Those figures are NOT close to being what most pros actually make, mind you.
Salary ranges are like:
GOD1 -- probably an even ungodlier amount! (jk i actually have no clue, but I'm making an assumption that his personal intel sponsorship is huge)
GOD2 -- ungodly amount
TIER 1 players -- around 30-50k per year range (rough estimate)
TIER 2 -- around 15-25k per year range
High skilled but less "famous" pros (aka TIER 3) -- probably 5-10k per year range
Disclaimer: I actually have no idea what the actual player salaries are. These are rough estimates based on other information I know, and could be totally wrong. The only numbers I actually know are the salary requests of people like X AND Y because I've looked into recruiting them.
Wow I actually thought players made alot more then that, even tho its a rough estimate. I think I could actually sponsor a team by myself =o still tho, there's alot of t1/god2 players out there!
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Are those figures monthly? Just curious, since I know nothing of SC2 progamer salaries (and have always been a bit curious).
edit: nvm, answered.
Monthly (not daily, lulz :D)
Those figures are NOT close to being what most pros actually make, mind you.
Salary ranges are like:
GOD1 -- probably an even ungodlier amount! (jk i actually have no clue, but I'm making an assumption that his personal intel sponsorship is huge)
GOD2 -- ungodly amount
TIER 1 players -- around 30-50k per year range (rough estimate)
TIER 2 -- around 15-25k per year range
High skilled but less "famous" pros (aka TIER 3) -- probably 5-10k per year range
Disclaimer: I actually have no idea what the actual player salaries are. These are rough estimates based on other information I know, and could be totally wrong. The only numbers I actually know are the salary requests of people like X AND Y because I've looked into recruiting them.
Wow I actually thought players made alot more then that, even tho its a rough estimate. I think I could actually sponsor a team by myself =o still tho, there's alot of t1/god2 players out there!
You can sponsor team LighT!
haha! When I'm in a more stable position (Just took a loan for a house) I might just do that! LighT fighting!
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Are those figures monthly? Just curious, since I know nothing of SC2 progamer salaries (and have always been a bit curious).
edit: nvm, answered.
Monthly (not daily, lulz :D)
Those figures are NOT close to being what most pros actually make, mind you.
Salary ranges are like:
GOD1 -- probably an even ungodlier amount! (jk i actually have no clue, but I'm making an assumption that his personal intel sponsorship is huge)
GOD2 -- ungodly amount
TIER 1 players -- around 30-50k per year range (rough estimate)
TIER 2 -- around 15-25k per year range
High skilled but less "famous" pros (aka TIER 3) -- probably 5-10k per year range
Disclaimer: I actually have no idea what the actual player salaries are. These are rough estimates based on other information I know, and could be totally wrong. The only numbers I actually know are the salary requests of people like X AND Y because I've looked into recruiting them.
Wow I actually thought players made alot more then that, even tho its a rough estimate. I think I could actually sponsor a team by myself =o still tho, there's alot of t1/god2 players out there!
On January 16 2012 16:57 Itsmedudeman wrote: It's not just about salary. It's about participating in foreign events. SlayerS won't send a B roster zerg to foreign tournaments, but a foreign team would. A lot of these guys can't make it into the GSL. Join a foreign team and you get to participate a lot more. It's somewhat of a double edged sword, really. What good is being a pro gamer if you can't compete in tournaments? But then you're probably only bringing down your skill level in the future and looking for mediocre results.
Well I think you hit the nail on the head, except for the part about making money in the foreign scene. I always thought Puma was incredibly smart/lucky for joining a foreign team as early as he did and getting into NASL. Puma has still not been able to get into Code A, yet he is far better than most foreigners and because of this, stomps tourneys and earns as much as some of the top Code S players, same goes for Hero.
The point I am trying to make is for the lower level koreans, why would you try to compete with Nestea MVP etc for winning Code S when you can travel to foreign tourneys with large and getting larger prize pools. For a guy like Golden, he has a much better chance of winning money overseas then he does of making money in the GSL, the hardest tournament to win and to get into in the sc2 world
Then we are set. Like for example, every player that is good/popular enough to cause a bidding war between teams will have a pretty "public" (industry wise) salary just by virtue of word of mouth. The fact that Xeris knows 1.5/3k is evidence enough. Its not uncommon for players to overvalue themselves. Its also not uncommon for teams to overpay. In general, theres a lot of room for growth, but its not an unfair system by any means - there are lots of players, lots of teams and a pretty regular cycle of contracts ending.
I agree, it's perfectly fair as long as there's some benchmark idea of what pro players at a given skill level should earn. It's a little weird that we as a community don't know what it is, but I assume that it's something you end up learning when you're high enough level that you're interacting with pros on a consistent basis?
My only concern is players like ostojiy or snute (just examples off the top of my head) that are sort of breaking into the scene might not have the same access to other pros that established players do. It's hard for me to say that Haypro is significantly better than ostojiy, for example, but since he's been established in the scene for forever, he has the privilege of information that others who have the same talent may not.
And just to be clear, I'm coming at this from a complete lack of information, and I don't want to accuse anyone of causing some injustice; I'm just curious about the inner workings of the scene that we don't really get to see as spectators.
On January 16 2012 17:24 FXOpen wrote: I kind of back up Xeris, but sometimes its inflated much further than what he has stated. I don't have experience with those players specifically, but in my experience someone said "I am worth 5k a month + travel any place I want to go".
That person has not won a major tournament.. ever.
Thats a total package of about 150k if you travel to every major event. A bit much considering the cash in for e-sports companies.
If you said that even before I saw the numbers from Xeris, I would still think that whoever that is is crazy high.
On January 16 2012 17:26 89andy wrote: Now the question is who is in the so called GOD1 and GOD2 tiers haha. Less than 5 people combined in those two tiers I presume?
bro how many gods can there be? god1 is 1 person and god2 is 1 person
I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
On January 16 2012 17:24 FXOpen wrote: I kind of back up Xeris, but sometimes its inflated much further than what he has stated. I don't have experience with those players specifically, but in my experience someone said "I am worth 5k a month + travel any place I want to go".
That person has not won a major tournament.. ever.
Thats a total package of about 150k if you travel to every major event. A bit much considering the cash in for e-sports companies.
If you said that even before I saw the numbers from Xeris, I would still think that whoever that is is crazy high.
Thats whats going on in the industry at the moment.
There is not enough exposure out there right now to justify such huge investments.
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
I guess SC2 exists in a small niche where people don't share salaries because of how low those salaries are, but that's the only reason it seems that people don't share them. Any other industry including professional sports you would find this information. Once salaries become big enough then people would share this info I'm sure. I find this hardly inappropriate.
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
I bet many of the lesser pros don't even practise 40 hours a week. Some of them work part time as well.
On January 16 2012 17:09 Xeris wrote: Almost 0 players in eSports will be able to retire off their winnings/salary when they quit gaming. You're looking at this from too much of a real-world perspective.
Based on your argument, only Boxer-esque players should even bother being pros because almost nobody is going to make enough to retire
Well, if the premises for the argument are sound, and the logic is fine, maybe the conclusion (i.e., many people who are currently marginally successful professional video gamers should strongly consider a change of vocation) shouldn't be immediately dismissed...
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
Besides Koreans in team houses I don't think most Tier 3 foreigners are expected to practice like its a full time job. (not saying they don't practice a lot)
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
$5k-$10k a month is above minimum wage....
I mean per year obviously.
As far as I'm aware, any player who puts in 40+ hours a week isn't on a contract below minimum wage.
You also have to look at it in terms of benefits, not just the actual cash payment.
Iiiiiiinteresting. Wonder what's going on in SlayerS.
Well, Dragon won't be a big loss to them. Tbh, Dragon could probably make enough off of just streaming Destiny-style; he tends to pull in lots of viewers, right?
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
They aren't paying players for an obligatory amount of practice play. They're paying them to represent them; paying them for their public persona and results. A studio is going to pay Brad Pitt more than they would Joe-Blow-Getting-Into-The-Industry even if they put the same amount of time and quality of performance into a film. And hell, if you can get results without ever playing in free time, you're still going to have more value than someone who can't get results but still practices 40hr/week.
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
They aren't paying players for an obligatory amount of practice play. They're paying them to represent them; paying them for their public persona and results. A studio is going to pay Brad Pitt more than they would Joe-Blow-Getting-Into-The-Industry even if they put the same amount of time and quality of performance into a film. And hell, if you can get results without ever playing in free time, you're still going to have more value than someone who can't get results but still practices 40hr/week.
I understand that, but in some countries like here in the united states you are required to pay a minimum hourly wage (or equivalent salary) for a fulltime (40+ hours a week) job. So there is a bottom net which even the worst player can't fall below, assuming they are classified as a full-time employee.
if u guys follow golden on stream he loves the non korean scene he likes tweeting to his non korean friends. i think itll b good for a foreign to pick him up,
Iiiiiiinteresting. Wonder what's going on in SlayerS.
Well, Dragon won't be a big loss to them. Tbh, Dragon could probably make enough off of just streaming Destiny-style; he tends to pull in lots of viewers, right?
His viewers have dropped by quite a bit over the last months I think/hope Dragon should be able to find a new team, cause he has a personality you can relate to. Something that most other korean pros lack/don't show.
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
They pay you to play for them. It doesn't matter that you play 40 hours, 80 hours or 1 hour a week, as long as you pay for their name and have good result, they're satisfied. Of course each team has its own requirement also.
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
They aren't paying players for an obligatory amount of practice play. They're paying them to represent them; paying them for their public persona and results. A studio is going to pay Brad Pitt more than they would Joe-Blow-Getting-Into-The-Industry even if they put the same amount of time and quality of performance into a film. And hell, if you can get results without ever playing in free time, you're still going to have more value than someone who can't get results but still practices 40hr/week.
I understand that, but in some countries like here in the united states you are required to pay a minimum hourly wage (or equivalent salary) for a fulltime (40+ hours a week) job. So there is a bottom net which even the worst player can't fall below, assuming they are classified as a full-time employee.
Unless we know what the minimum wage is for Korea there is no way to know what that possible minimum is. Again, minimum wage is different for all countries. I do understand your logic though, even though players are paid based on results and talent, not amount of work (as it is for all sports).
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
They aren't paying players for an obligatory amount of practice play. They're paying them to represent them; paying them for their public persona and results. A studio is going to pay Brad Pitt more than they would Joe-Blow-Getting-Into-The-Industry even if they put the same amount of time and quality of performance into a film. And hell, if you can get results without ever playing in free time, you're still going to have more value than someone who can't get results but still practices 40hr/week.
I understand that, but in some countries like here in the united states you are required to pay a minimum hourly wage (or equivalent salary) for a fulltime (40+ hours a week) job. So there is a bottom net which even the worst player can't fall below, assuming they are classified as a full-time employee.
Unless we know what the minimum wage is for Korea there is no way to know what that possible minimum is. Again, minimum wage is different for all countries. I do understand your logic though, even though players are paid based on results and talent, not amount of work (as it is for all sports).
Don't most sports leagues have a minimum wage as well?
Ah a shame dragon left slayers/got kicked out, He has a wonderful personality and is a decent gamer, hope someone picks him up soon. seems like slayers is cutting players for 2012. Maybe because they want to add others? Really need some new faces in Esports!
EDIT: Also, if koreans think that they will get easily picked up by foreign teams we might have a issue on our hands. - They wont get the same practice schedule(which turn koreans to gods) - They wont get the best of the best practice partners - lesser korean teams might desolve!
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
They aren't paying players for an obligatory amount of practice play. They're paying them to represent them; paying them for their public persona and results. A studio is going to pay Brad Pitt more than they would Joe-Blow-Getting-Into-The-Industry even if they put the same amount of time and quality of performance into a film. And hell, if you can get results without ever playing in free time, you're still going to have more value than someone who can't get results but still practices 40hr/week.
I understand that, but in some countries like here in the united states you are required to pay a minimum hourly wage (or equivalent salary) for a fulltime (40+ hours a week) job. So there is a bottom net which even the worst player can't fall below, assuming they are classified as a full-time employee.
The problem with your line of thinking is thinking of it as a minimum HOURLY wage. It's a contract, it's not an hourly wage. I would be very surprised if these contracts had stipulations about how much a player must play specifically in any given day/week/month etc. How much the person feels they need to play to honor the contract is completely on their end, not the teams.
Iiiiiiinteresting. Wonder what's going on in SlayerS.
Well, Dragon won't be a big loss to them. Tbh, Dragon could probably make enough off of just streaming Destiny-style; he tends to pull in lots of viewers, right?
His viewers have dropped by quite a bit over the last months I think/hope Dragon should be able to find a new team, cause he has a personality you can relate to. Something that most other korean pros lack/don't show.
That's unfortunate. He doesn't really have any results, so he really needs to rely on his streaming.
Out of the former SlayerS players, I'd say Sleep is the one with the most skill/potential, but if he's asking for too much ... meh. Any reason why he's listed as TBA vs. N/A like the others on the SlayerS Liquipedia page?
On January 16 2012 17:26 89andy wrote: Now the question is who is in the so called GOD1 and GOD2 tiers haha. Less than 5 people combined in those two tiers I presume?
bro how many gods can there be? god1 is 1 person and god2 is 1 person
*whispers* Before the edit it consisted of Boxer and Huk
On January 16 2012 17:26 89andy wrote: Now the question is who is in the so called GOD1 and GOD2 tiers haha. Less than 5 people combined in those two tiers I presume?
GOD1 boxer (reputation) GOD2 Multiple GSL winners (Nestea, MVP, ~MC) T1 Code S routine players (MKP, DRG, Losira, etc) T2 Code S / Code A borderline players T3 Code A / Code B (fits the description "really good but no results")
All this salary talk makes me really hope that MC got a big salary boost by joining SK.
MC was certainly underpaid at oGs. He's the best Protoss in the world, with by far the best tournament results of any Protoss, and he's really funny and speaks English at foreign events so he's got probably the most fans of any SC2 Korean other than Boxer.
I hope MC's new salary is at least close to Huk's, based on the fact that Huk is probably the highest salaried SC2 player in the world. MC obviously wouldn't make more than Huk, he's not white or American so his marketing potential is limited no matter how good his results are.
Well, now this is starting to seem like BoxeR cutting players because the SlayerS roster is needlessly huge.
To be fair, Dragon was never in the house and Idra said that Golden had left prior to Idra arriving in the SlayerS house. I'm sure they wouldn't kick them if they trained in the house.
Coca, please return soon. SlayerS needs your gosu Zerg ability now more than ever. T_T Not to mention you are one of the best players on SlayerS vs. Protoss.
On January 16 2012 17:54 StyLeD wrote: GOD1 boxer (reputation) GOD2 Multiple GSL winners (Nestea, MVP, ~MC) T1 Code S routine players (MKP, DRG, Losira, etc) T2 Code S / Code A borderline players T3 Code A / Code B (fits the description "really good but no results")
would be my guess...
Before it was deleted it was GOD1 boxer intel sponsorship GOD2 Huk T1 Idra/Puma/Naniwa esque players T2 morrow/kiwikaki esque player T3 Everything else
On January 16 2012 17:54 StyLeD wrote: GOD1 boxer (reputation) GOD2 Multiple GSL winners (Nestea, MVP, ~MC) T1 Code S routine players (MKP, DRG, Losira, etc) T2 Code S / Code A borderline players T3 Code A / Code B (fits the description "really good but no results")
would be my guess...
No. Before it was edited by Xeris, it was:
GOD1: Boxer GOD2: HuK T1: Naniwa, IdrA, Puma T2: I forget. T3: Nobody listed besides the description.
Well, now this is starting to seem like BoxeR cutting players because the SlayerS roster is needlessly huge.
To be fair, Dragon was never in the house and Idra said that Golden had left prior to Idra arriving in the SlayerS house. I'm sure they wouldn't kick them if they trained in the house.
Thought Dragon was in the house, but for a short period of time?
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
They aren't paying players for an obligatory amount of practice play. They're paying them to represent them; paying them for their public persona and results. A studio is going to pay Brad Pitt more than they would Joe-Blow-Getting-Into-The-Industry even if they put the same amount of time and quality of performance into a film. And hell, if you can get results without ever playing in free time, you're still going to have more value than someone who can't get results but still practices 40hr/week.
I understand that, but in some countries like here in the united states you are required to pay a minimum hourly wage (or equivalent salary) for a fulltime (40+ hours a week) job. So there is a bottom net which even the worst player can't fall below, assuming they are classified as a full-time employee.
eSports isn't legal enough to enforce this. Yes technically, if you own a business here in the USA, you are legally obligated to pay minimum wage. You need special government / school board approval to be able to have unpaid internships (you must offer school credit, which you need approval from a school board to do). So technically, 99% of eSports jobs, like almost all of TL staff, is illegal.
It's a huge grey area though, the internet seems to not abide by the same laws an office building does. So it's really unrealistic to expect real world scenarios to apply to this very new, infant, industry.
I doubt koreans get paid a lot, they make the most out of their prize moneys.
Honestly I think Idra is worth more to EG than Huk. But then again contracts get renegotiated every year, so his new contract might be worth more. Win or lose he just attracts people either way.
should get signed by a team before they quit. their marketability goes down when they are no longer assigned to a team because they are more desperate for money.
Well, now this is starting to seem like BoxeR cutting players because the SlayerS roster is needlessly huge.
To be fair, Dragon was never in the house and Idra said that Golden had left prior to Idra arriving in the SlayerS house. I'm sure they wouldn't kick them if they trained in the house.
Thought Dragon was in the house, but for a short period of time?
Just for a trial period. SlayerS has an A team and B team. The A team lives in the house while the B team are just part of the clan and occasionally get the chance for a trial period in the house to see if they fit in and are good enough. At least that's what I remember reading.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k . So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what? And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Did iNcontroL acctually do that or was that just an example?
Besides that-- It's sad they both had to leave the team hopefully they find new teams soon. I almost have a feeling that Dragon won't even look for a new team though. Also have to wonder how long Golden will be without a team considering Sleep is still teamless at this point ... could be a while :/
On January 16 2012 18:00 dAPhREAk wrote: should get signed by a team before they quit. their marketability goes down when they are no longer assigned to a team because they are more desperate for money.
This is an excellent point. Even in most industries it is always a better idea to to find a new job well in your current one, and not quit and then find one (and not just for cash flow reasons).
On January 16 2012 17:28 Duravi wrote: I don't understand the $5k-10k contracts, assuming it is a fulltime job and you expect 40 hours a week out of your players aren't you required to pay a salary equivalent with minimum wage?
They aren't paying players for an obligatory amount of practice play. They're paying them to represent them; paying them for their public persona and results. A studio is going to pay Brad Pitt more than they would Joe-Blow-Getting-Into-The-Industry even if they put the same amount of time and quality of performance into a film. And hell, if you can get results without ever playing in free time, you're still going to have more value than someone who can't get results but still practices 40hr/week.
I understand that, but in some countries like here in the united states you are required to pay a minimum hourly wage (or equivalent salary) for a fulltime (40+ hours a week) job. So there is a bottom net which even the worst player can't fall below, assuming they are classified as a full-time employee.
eSports isn't legal enough to enforce this. Yes technically, if you own a business here in the USA, you are legally obligated to pay minimum wage. You need special government / school board approval to be able to have unpaid internships (you must offer school credit, which you need approval from a school board to do). So technically, 99% of eSports jobs, like almost all of TL staff, is illegal.
It's a huge grey area though, the internet seems to not abide by the same laws an office building does. So it's really unrealistic to expect real world scenarios to apply to this very new, infant, industry.
...
had they met the requirements of the laws (i.e., they were employees under the wage and hour laws), the laws would apply to them. but they dont meet the requirements of the laws; they aren't employees (the players that is).
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k . So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what? And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Did iNcontroL acctually do that or was that just an example?
Besides that-- It's sad they both had to leave the team hopefully they find new teams soon. I almost have a feeling that Dragon won't even look for a new team though. Also have to wonder how long Golden will be without a team considering Sleep is still teamless at this point ... could be a while :/
On January 16 2012 18:03 Vaapad wrote: EG.Dragon! would be soooo awesome not very likely though...
By not likely you mean 0% right?
Dragon is a mid level Korean player at best and has a history of cheating and then going back on his promise to never compete again.
I personally would be shocked if any team bigger then say Light (no offense Xeris, just an example) picked him up. He may be funny on stream, but as a player he has next to no value.
I like the guy, but being an awesome streamer does not make you an awesome player worthy of being on EG.
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k . So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what? And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Did iNcontroL acctually do that or was that just an example?
Besides that-- It's sad they both had to leave the team hopefully they find new teams soon. I almost have a feeling that Dragon won't even look for a new team though. Also have to wonder how long Golden will be without a team considering Sleep is still teamless at this point ... could be a while :/
Example. Odd that he choose an EG member though.
I think it is just a good example of someone notably leaving an organization, especially since Xeris was affiliated with NASL. I don't think the fact that he is EG has anything to do with it.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k . So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what? And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Did iNcontroL acctually do that or was that just an example?
Besides that-- It's sad they both had to leave the team hopefully they find new teams soon. I almost have a feeling that Dragon won't even look for a new team though. Also have to wonder how long Golden will be without a team considering Sleep is still teamless at this point ... could be a while :/
Example. Odd that he choose an EG member though.
He obviously chose that example because iNcontroL was a huge part of NASL then left it, but left with a ton of knowledge about how NASL was being run. It's a good example.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I would imagine with how much CatZ streams, that's where the majority of his current income is (ala Destiny).
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Actually I suspect Liquid players get paid very little, most of the support comes from access to the oGs-TL training environment and transportation plus hotel costs to tournaments.
Liquid has few sponsors compared to a team like EG, and those sponsors probably aren't spending as much money on them as the big sponsors EG has.
We have to remember, Liquid couldn't afford to keep Huk even though Huk was willing to stay with them for a significantly lower salary than EG was offering him, and Huk was probably their highest paid player.
Also, Tyler and Ret are notorious for their on/off practicing, and I don't think they would be allowed to do that if they were being paid a high salary.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k . So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what? And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Did iNcontroL acctually do that or was that just an example?
Besides that-- It's sad they both had to leave the team hopefully they find new teams soon. I almost have a feeling that Dragon won't even look for a new team though. Also have to wonder how long Golden will be without a team considering Sleep is still teamless at this point ... could be a while :/
Example. Odd that he choose an EG member though.
Both Inc and Xeris were involved in NASL. Don't be stupid.
Well Dragon was made himself pretty market through his stream so if he wants another team I'm sure he can find something. Golden is a very good player and as long as his expectations aren't too high he can find something too. Wish koreans would stop trying to find foreign teams though. >_<
Not surprising considering for many players struggling to get into Code A, joining a foreign team will give a better chance of netting money via either a salary or less contested tournaments.
GL to both in finding new teams. I have to admit, I am more surprised that SlayerS kept dragon on as long as they did. I only know what I've seen of him on his stream, and he has devolved into some kind of weird side show where he acts like a tard while trolling low leagues. Entertaining to some, I guess, but certainly didn't seem to fit the SlayerS "mold." I think him and Destiny would make a great team.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Actually I suspect Liquid players get paid very little, most of the support comes from access to the oGs-TL training environment and transportation plus hotel costs to tournaments.
Liquid has few sponsors compared to a team like EG, and those sponsors probably aren't spending as much money on them as the big sponsors EG has.
We have to remember, Liquid couldn't afford to keep Huk even though Huk was willing to stay with them for a significantly lower salary than EG was offering him, and Huk was probably their highest paid player.
Also, Tyler and Ret are notorious for their on/off practicing, and I don't think they would be allowed to do that if they were being paid a high salary.
They couldn't afford to keep Huk but Huk is the second highest earner in the sport.
Liquid clearly must have a reasonable cash flow because they send their players to everything. Perhaps that's where all their budget goes and they don't pay much after that but it seems unlikely to me. Aside from EG I don't think any team is better at getting their players to events than TL.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
I think Diamond has a point, it would be good for Koreans to be informed about what is the "real" foreign world. Western teams are not some new kind of Eldorado... Good luck to Golden though! I'm sad about Dragon, he was bringing something different to SlayerS, hope he won't stop streaming.
On January 16 2012 18:15 MooLen wrote: Just a simpe question. Why would anyone leave a known korean team if he doesnt know what the future will bring to him??
Most likely, SlayerS is down sizing as contracts expire because they no longer have the $150,000 that Intel gave them for 2011.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
It obviously depends on your country but in the UK there is absolutely no reason you can't finish high school because of Starcraft. You miss university sure but there's no reason you can't go later in life once you're done with Starcraft.
On January 16 2012 18:03 Vaapad wrote: EG.Dragon! would be soooo awesome not very likely though...
By not likely you mean 0% right?
Dragon is a mid level Korean player at best and has a history of cheating and then going back on his promise to never compete again.
I personally would be shocked if any team bigger then say Light (no offense Xeris, just an example) picked him up. He may be funny on stream, but as a player he has next to no value.
I like the guy, but being an awesome streamer does not make you an awesome player worthy of being on EG.
Disclosure: I have been a dragon fan since the very beginning (I also knew about his "cheating" incident since the beginning).
I think its wrong to say that he has little to no value. What Dragon has (Despite his short comings regarding stream cheating) is a huge following of loyal fans that he has rightfully gained through his highly entertaining stream. Any of the "A-level" teams (EG, liquid, mouz, ect) would be lucky to have such a popular player.
Heck, just recently we saw check 6 pickup that maximusblack guy because he has a popular youtube/stream. So if a team like that can pickup a diamond level player because he gets 500-1k viewers everytime he streams (and dont try to blow smoke up my ass telling me that x6 thinks he has "potential" and thats why they picked him up.) then surely they or any other foreign team should jump all over themselves and each other to grab such a ridiculously popular and entertaining GM level korean.
This is all leaving out the fact that he is also highly talented despite how little and the way in which he practices.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
On January 16 2012 18:15 MooLen wrote: Just a simpe question. Why would anyone leave a known korean team if he doesnt know what the future will bring to him??
Most likely, SlayerS is down sizing as contracts expire because they no longer have the $150,000 that Intel gave them for 2011.
Considering Dragon was working and only playing part time from home I doubt he got a salary from Slayers.
I found it abit offensive your ''Dont read too deep into things''
Not sure how you found that offensive, but also you should read post names once in a while. I was not the one who posted "Don't read too deep into things."
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Actually I suspect Liquid players get paid very little, most of the support comes from access to the oGs-TL training environment and transportation plus hotel costs to tournaments.
Liquid has few sponsors compared to a team like EG, and those sponsors probably aren't spending as much money on them as the big sponsors EG has.
We have to remember, Liquid couldn't afford to keep Huk even though Huk was willing to stay with them for a significantly lower salary than EG was offering him, and Huk was probably their highest paid player.
Also, Tyler and Ret are notorious for their on/off practicing, and I don't think they would be allowed to do that if they were being paid a high salary.
Auctally I think Liquid is one of the more wealthy teams. Think about the ad revine they get from all liquid's sites. Both Liquid poker and Teamliquid (this site) make tons via ad revune.
Back when I was running a website I would get a ceratin amount of money per person viewing my webiste. They go my views per thousand. so liquid has thousands of pages with 2 ads per page. and thousands of people viewing liquid at any time. Liquid site's can easily pull in a lot of money.
the difference between EG and Liquid is that Liquid for the most part is self supported. with the exception of a few sponsors (awesome ones at that) and EG has no self-supported revune, all of their money is sponsor supported. if they lost all their sponsors, they would likely be out of money and would close.
On January 16 2012 18:03 Vaapad wrote: EG.Dragon! would be soooo awesome not very likely though...
By not likely you mean 0% right?
Dragon is a mid level Korean player at best and has a history of cheating and then going back on his promise to never compete again.
I personally would be shocked if any team bigger then say Light (no offense Xeris, just an example) picked him up. He may be funny on stream, but as a player he has next to no value.
I like the guy, but being an awesome streamer does not make you an awesome player worthy of being on EG.
Disclosure: I have been a dragon fan since the very beginning (I also knew about his "cheating" incident since the beginning).
I think its wrong to say that he has little to no value. What Dragon has (Despite his short comings regarding stream cheating) is a huge following of loyal fans that he has rightfully gained through his highly entertaining stream. Any of the "A-level" teams (EG, liquid, mouz, ect) would be lucky to have such a popular player.
Heck, just recently we saw check 6 pickup that maximusblack guy because he has a popular youtube/stream. So if a team like that can pickup a diamond level player because he gets 500-1k viewers everytime he streams (and dont try to blow smoke up my ass telling me that x6 thinks he has "potential" and thats why they picked him up.) then surely they or any other foreign team should jump all over themselves and each other to grab such a ridiculously popular and entertaining GM level korean.
This is all leaving out the fact that he is also highly talented despite how little and the way in which he practices.
I agree with you that Dragon has a lot of value as a popular player. While I seriously doubt one of the big name teams would be willing to pick up Dragon. I could see him getting picked by one of the smaller more stream oriented teams. That said. this depends on how much money Dragon is expecting/needs. I don't think his cheating issues will be much of a problem as it has been largely ignored for some reason.
On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote: Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
However in said industries you are not swamped with opportunities to make $50k+ in a weekend, on a frequent basis.
This is no different from ANY pro sport, the best make the most, the rest have to risk it to make it big.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
It obviously depends on your country but in the UK there is absolutely no reason you can't finish high school because of Starcraft. You miss university sure but there's no reason you can't go later in life once you're done with Starcraft.
The situation, AFAIK, kind of sucks in Korea unless you're kind of like Polt. Your exams in high school determine where you're going to go for college, and the caliber of the college you attend determines the rest of your life. A lot of progamers in Korea are looked down upon as being those who didn't do well in school (which makes sense; if you're spending so much time playing games, you're not going to do well academically), so many of them aren't going to have a particularly stellar life after they quit progaming. And it's not just the people who don't make it; you have some successful progamers expressing some regret as well. NaDa's said before that he's kind of sad he's never got to live a normal life, and Moon's mentioned the same thing before as well in an interview, suggesting that if he'd had the chance to do it all over again, he'd rather go to college instead.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Not sure how you found that offensive, but also you should read post names once in a while. I was not the one who posted "Don't read too deep into things."
My bad when I talk to someone on forums i always expect that specific person to reply me, no1 else but yeah
On January 16 2012 18:03 Vaapad wrote: EG.Dragon! would be soooo awesome not very likely though...
By not likely you mean 0% right?
Dragon is a mid level Korean player at best and has a history of cheating and then going back on his promise to never compete again.
I personally would be shocked if any team bigger then say Light (no offense Xeris, just an example) picked him up. He may be funny on stream, but as a player he has next to no value.
I like the guy, but being an awesome streamer does not make you an awesome player worthy of being on EG.
Disclosure: I have been a dragon fan since the very beginning (I also knew about his "cheating" incident since the beginning).
I think its wrong to say that he has little to no value. What Dragon has (Despite his short comings regarding stream cheating) is a huge following of loyal fans that he has rightfully gained through his highly entertaining stream. Any of the "A-level" teams (EG, liquid, mouz, ect) would be lucky to have such a popular player.
Heck, just recently we saw check 6 pickup that maximusblack guy because he has a popular youtube/stream. So if a team like that can pickup a diamond level player because he gets 500-1k viewers everytime he streams (and dont try to blow smoke up my ass telling me that x6 thinks he has "potential" and thats why they picked him up.) then surely they or any other foreign team should jump all over themselves and each other to grab such a ridiculously popular and entertaining GM level korean.
This is all leaving out the fact that he is also highly talented despite how little and the way in which he practices.
don't know about "lucky" with EG having two of the most popular figures in exports already.
On January 16 2012 18:03 Vaapad wrote: EG.Dragon! would be soooo awesome not very likely though...
By not likely you mean 0% right?
Dragon is a mid level Korean player at best and has a history of cheating and then going back on his promise to never compete again.
I personally would be shocked if any team bigger then say Light (no offense Xeris, just an example) picked him up. He may be funny on stream, but as a player he has next to no value.
I like the guy, but being an awesome streamer does not make you an awesome player worthy of being on EG.
Disclosure: I have been a dragon fan since the very beginning (I also knew about his "cheating" incident since the beginning).
I think its wrong to say that he has little to no value. What Dragon has (Despite his short comings regarding stream cheating) is a huge following of loyal fans that he has rightfully gained through his highly entertaining stream. Any of the "A-level" teams (EG, liquid, mouz, ect) would be lucky to have such a popular player.
Heck, just recently we saw check 6 pickup that maximusblack guy because he has a popular youtube/stream. So if a team like that can pickup a diamond level player because he gets 500-1k viewers everytime he streams (and dont try to blow smoke up my ass telling me that x6 thinks he has "potential" and thats why they picked him up.) then surely they or any other foreign team should jump all over themselves and each other to grab such a ridiculously popular and entertaining GM level korean.
This is all leaving out the fact that he is also highly talented despite how little and the way in which he practices.
don't know about "lucky" with EG having two of the most popular figures in exports already.
Now let's not pretend being popular in SC2 = being popular in eSports ...
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
exactly, and don't say sports players get paid a lot too. Again, by the time you get to MLB, NHL, NBA, etc. you are already at the tip top of the professional level already. So many many many fail at the amateur level and make next to no money.
Funny how you guys only mention what sleep and sangho wanted for salary, but never discussed how much the team would profit in sponsorship money due to these players etc
On January 16 2012 18:35 MyXoMoPBL wrote: Funny how you guys only mention what sleep and sangho wanted for salary, but never discussed how much the team would profit in sponsorship money due to these players etc
Hint: It's not what they are asking. That's why they are unsigned while players like HuK or IdrA get signed for huge salaries.
On January 16 2012 18:15 MooLen wrote: Just a simpe question. Why would anyone leave a known korean team if he doesnt know what the future will bring to him??
Most likely, SlayerS is down sizing as contracts expire because they no longer have the $150,000 that Intel gave them for 2011.
Woow, the money fade away more slowly than i expected because Boxer got over 1 year ago. Food, engergie costs, players didnt cost as much as i expected.
On January 16 2012 18:35 MyXoMoPBL wrote: Funny how you guys only mention what sleep and sangho wanted for salary, but never discussed how much the team would profit in sponsorship money due to these players etc
except usually sponsoring koreans except for the very top tier ones doesnt work out in the foreign scene. Not everyone is a Slayers Boxer or MC where personality you can sell to foreigners. Sure you could have a player like IMMVP on a team where people watch him cause he is a monster but if he ever goes into a huge slump people may forget him easily. Whereas someone who is a korean with huge marketability like a Boxer, or MC, you can be okay even when they slump because they are so marketable. Sangho really doesn't have a big foreign following and isn't nearly as dominant as a player like MVP to attract fans based on pure talent and not so much a personality that would relate to foreign fans. Its not easy for foreigners to feel connected to koreans where as its much easier to like or hate an idra or huk because you can relate to them regardless of how their play is doing.
people are reading way too much into this. I think golden's english failed him here. He doesnt know the slang of what "kick out" means so he says leave. pray for me is in regards to the suddenness of it.
i dont believe he "left" slayers to pursue the mounds of gold outside of korea. people are being a little to judgmental
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
You have a very warped sense of reality.
Also to throw this out there, Destiny cleaned carpets, CatZ was a waiter (iirc), and iNcontoL worked at Gamestop all before SC2. I could probably come up with many examples but being good at SC2 does not make you a rocket scientist lololol...........
Get off your high horse and let people live their lives the way they want. Who the hell are you to lecture them for pursuing a dream?
On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote: Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
However in said industries you are not swamped with opportunities to make $50k+ in a weekend, on a frequent basis.
This is no different from ANY pro sport, the best make the most, the rest have to risk it to make it big.
The difference is that making it in ESports means you make less money than ANY pro-fessional NFL or Soccer (Europe) Player. Because the industry is way bigger, you can easily find a job after your professional sports career in the same or a near field. May-be we are at the beginning of Esports getting the same conditions as pro sports, but for now being only a progamer is in most cases a bad decision.
Don't really know what to say, haven't got any real knowledge to comment on this very interesting thread.
All i can say is, good luck to Golden, Dragon and SlayerS! <3
Oh, and we should really keep doing stuff like TB did, with tips for the players, if alot of them are making very little! we could easily support the players more as a community imo
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
I don't know. I think on average most of these guys would've had comfortable upper middle class careers if they worked as hard at school as they do with SC2. 8+ hours a day, every day, that would likely produce good grades.
Would a few of them become doctors or something and made big money like MVP did last year? Entirely possible.
On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote: Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
However in said industries you are not swamped with opportunities to make $50k+ in a weekend, on a frequent basis.
This is no different from ANY pro sport, the best make the most, the rest have to risk it to make it big.
The difference is that making it in ESports means you make less money than ANY pro-fessional NFL or Soccer (Europe) Player. Because the industry is way bigger, you can easily find a job after your professional sports career in the same or a near field. May-be we are at the beginning of Esports getting the same conditions as pro sports, but for now being only a progamer is in most cases a bad decision.
Did not stop thousands of MMA fighters from dedicating their life to a sport back when no one made shit. Now the top guys that have been around forever make millions. If SC2 continues to grow, this trend will follow.
Everyone is too focused on today, look long term if this sport continues to grow.
On January 16 2012 18:47 snowhell wrote: people are reading way too much into this. I think golden's english failed him here. He doesnt know the slang of what "kick out" means so he says leave. pray for me is in regards to the suddenness of it.
i dont believe he "left" slayers to pursue the mounds of gold outside of korea. people are being a little to judgmental
SlayerS tweet just in time to make you wrong! Had to post it since it was perfect timing, sorry!
On January 16 2012 18:35 MyXoMoPBL wrote: Funny how you guys only mention what sleep and sangho wanted for salary, but never discussed how much the team would profit in sponsorship money due to these players etc
Uh, teams won't profit in sponsorship money from any of those guys. I'd rather give that money to one of Liquid's players, or one of EG's players.
EG and Liquid are the smartest teams, and have created likable (well, IdrA's badboy personality is just as good), marketable personalities that are also competitive-level and tournament winning capable.
A random Korean player really won't benefit your team at all. Most sponsors are Western, they don't really care about guys living in Korea who don't speak English. A player like TLO is infinitely more profitable/marketable than a guy like Sangho, despite the fact that I'm sure Sangho is a better SC2 player.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
On January 16 2012 18:47 snowhell wrote: people are reading way too much into this. I think golden's english failed him here. He doesnt know the slang of what "kick out" means so he says leave. pray for me is in regards to the suddenness of it.
i dont believe he "left" slayers to pursue the mounds of gold outside of korea. people are being a little to judgmental
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
I don't know. I think on average most of these guys would've had comfortable upper middle class careers if they worked as hard at school as they do with SC2. 8+ hours a day, every day, that would likely produce good grades.
Would a few of them become doctors or something and made big money like MVP did last year? Entirely possible.
Both you guys need to listen to what Diamond just said.
In addition to those guys I know HD Starcraft worked as a waiter, a lot of the Koreans came from poor families.
I really don't think either have full time jobs and actually know what real life is like. You don't just waltz into a 50k a year job. Nevermind the 250k Mvp made last year.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
You have a very warped sense of reality.
Also to throw this out there, Destiny cleaned carpets, CatZ was a waiter (iirc), and iNcontoL worked at Gamestop all before SC2. I could probably come up with many examples but being good at SC2 does not make you a rocket scientist lololol...........
Get off your high horse and let people live their lives the way they want. Who the hell are you to lecture them for pursuing a dream?
Whaaat?.. I don't even...
I thought I was expressing my opinion on arbitrary subject on teh internets, thanks for clearing that up for me!
As for "Destiny cleaned carpets, CatZ was a waiter (iirc), and iNcontoL worked at Gamestop", didn't we all at some point? I used to clean toilets at McDonalds at night.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
Or you know, hopes of supporting a family one day... Kinda hard to do on 20k/yr, not impossible though, but I imagine its kinda hard.
... As one of my best korean friends I'm so sad about this, he just ruined his entire career and is going to suicide his skill/potential in a foreign team unless it's something like Liquid or maybe Fnatic with the route they're going in with the korean-academy etc.
could see dragon getting picked up, his stream is fairly popular so at least he has that going for him. not sure why golden would leave a big tteam like slayers with no real accomplishments or popularity.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
Or you know, hopes of supporting a family one day... Kinda hard to do on 20k/yr, not impossible though, but I imagine its kinda hard.
Depends where you live. There's tons of kids in this thread who really don't know what the real world is like. Making 20k a year at 18-21 years old is extremely good in the UK and I imagine most of Europe nevermind how good it is in a country like Poland or Ukraine. Nevermind that while you earn 20k a year you're always only one good tournament a way from increasing that massively in only a weekend of play.
Nor do any players live in the world of 1984 which a lot of people here seem to think where you're bound for life to the career you pick at 16.
Pro gamers have their entire lives before them, nothing wrong at all in taking a few years out to get paid more than their friends for playing games and travelling the world.
If you're looking for a community where all semi-great players can make a killing at Starcraft, you're living in a fantasy world right now. It isn't teams job to throw themselves into debt giving players amounts of money they are simply not worth or can provide a return on. It is their job to give them a fair estimate of what they're worth, and make them an offer. Sorry if people thought it was something a bit more magical...but it's simply reality.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Doesn't Dragon have a full time/part time job anyway? If so he doesn't totally rely on his streaming. He still pulls well over 1k viewers when I look, although I don't watch him that much so I could be mistaken. He's a cool guy, best of luck to him.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Read up. Destiny cleaned carpets before this, incontrol worked in a gamestop and HD worked in McDonalds. Fruitdealer sold fruit at his parents shop.
The pro Sc2 world is not full of would be Doctors, Lawyers and accountants.
While everyone is talking about salaries, I'm more curious on what Slayers is planning to do with their extra team space now. It's possible they simple felt they got too many players, they do have quite a line up, or they may be looking for new candidates if they are cleaning house a little, so to say.
On January 16 2012 19:10 karpo wrote: Dragon leaving due to him being hated for the cheating scandal and getting flak for getting into the GSL?
Golden is 17 and is perhaps a bit deluded thinking he'll get a contract with a foreign team just by being korean?
I think Golden is actually a really good player, but as Xeris pointed out before winning isn't that important where a players value is concerned especially as we're not talking about players who can win tournaments.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote: [quote] I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
You have a very warped sense of reality.
Also to throw this out there, Destiny cleaned carpets, CatZ was a waiter (iirc), and iNcontoL worked at Gamestop all before SC2. I could probably come up with many examples but being good at SC2 does not make you a rocket scientist lololol...........
Get off your high horse and let people live their lives the way they want. Who the hell are you to lecture them for pursuing a dream?
Whaaat?.. I don't even...
I thought I was expressing my opinion on arbitrary subject on teh internets, thanks for clearing that up for me!
As for "Destiny cleaned carpets, CatZ was a waiter (iirc), and iNcontoL worked at Gamestop", didn't we all at some point? I used to clean toilets at McDonalds at night.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Read up. Destiny cleaned carpets before this, incontrol worked in a gamestop and HD worked in McDonalds. Fruitdealer sold fruit at his parents shop.
The pro Sc2 world is not full of would be Doctors, Lawyers and accountants.
And is there any reason in particular they couldn't go to college? I worked minimum wage jobs in the past too. The thing is, I went to college and invested in myself rather than stay there. Yeah, it sucks to be poor, but it's not uncommon in the slightest.
It's not generally the best decision to be a progamer unless you can reach the highest tier. If you're putting years into your game, you're letting the clock tick on the time you have left to actually get an education and have it be financially useful.
The pro SC2 would could easily be full of would-be doctors, lawyers, etc. These are intelligent people who have shown they can dedicate themselves to a task. It's going to come back and hurt a lot of progamers in a few years if/when esports has either died down or they're unable to stay even at the mid/low-level of progaming. It sucks, but it's inevitable.
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
In other pro sports, contracts are (at least in most sports) public information, to protect the rights of players. I understand that it's in the team's best interest to keep contracts private, but what if we found out that EG was paying their players with similar results 5 times as much as Liquid? That's not fair to the players at all. Some transparency is necessary if we're going to have players compensated fairly.
edit: I guess it doesn't need to be broadcasted publicly in this way but it shouldn't be something that's suppressed
If this community decided what was "fair" then every organization would be broke as dirt lol. It's not just the players that have a complete disconnect from reality, it's the community to when it comes to how much players are worth, get, deserve, etc.
thank you! And for reference, all of the teams and players know what each other make within a ball park - no player is under some NDA about his contract and everyone lets every team know when their contracts are up. The industry isn't at a stage where its worth making it public.
O.o It's basically creating a "problem", and stating that problem as reason why it shouldnt/cant be fixed.
If everything was public, the community's illusion about player worth wouldnt exist, or at the very least much much smaller. The very reason this illusion exists is that contract are not public, which makes the average Joe consider them much more of "stars" than what they really are. Now this might have other benefits, such as drawing more attention to SC2 overall, both players (who want this "star value") and viewers (who wants to watch these "star players"), but its also one of the main reason this illusion exists. A lot of people think pros make waaaaay more than they do.
And im obviously not experienced too much in what the players think of themselves, but I've heard people saying players overvalue themselves often too. Thats another problem which likely would be much smaller if everyone knew how much people were making. Would Koreans really ask for this much money if they knew how much the average foreign player was making (and maybe more importantly, why they are making that much, marketability etc)?
In the end, there are very few occasions where transparency is a bad thing, and you're gonna have to come up with a lot better stuff than that to convince people.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Read up. Destiny cleaned carpets before this, incontrol worked in a gamestop and HD worked in McDonalds. Fruitdealer sold fruit at his parents shop.
The pro Sc2 world is not full of would be Doctors, Lawyers and accountants.
And is there any reason in particular they couldn't go to college? I worked minimum wage jobs in the past too. The thing is, I went to college and invested in myself rather than stay there. Yeah, it sucks to be poor, but it's not uncommon in the slightest.
It's not generally the best decision to be a progamer unless you can reach the highest tier. If you're putting years into your game, you're letting the clock tick on the time you have left to actually get an education and have it be financially useful.
The pro SC2 would could easily be full of would-be doctors, lawyers, etc. These are intelligent people who have shown they can dedicate themselves to a task. It's going to come back and hurt a lot of progamers in a few years if/when esports has either died down or they're unable to stay even at the mid/low-level of progaming. It sucks, but it's inevitable.
You're completely dodging the point now. A) Most if not all pro gamers don't have amazing career prospects where they would otherwise be working a 50k a year job or even in an industry where that's a natural progression and B) If they do then they can be put on all anyway.
There's zero reason why going to university 3-5 years later (which is your career length at best unless you're Boxer/Nada) will have a massive impact on your life.
If they can go to college after cleaning carpets they can do it after working as a pro gamer too.
But it isn't full of would be doctors. You can say they could be but you're just throwing mindless bullshit out there, where as I and others are telling you what actual pro gamers were doing before they became pro gamers and it sure as hell wasn't med school or studying for the Harvard entrance exams. The dedicating yourself to a task thing is just absurd. Football players are dedicated to a task too, but 95% of them can't even speak in proper English. Being good at Starcraft doesn't mean you can master the infinite complexities of the human body.
NOOO DRAGON This makes me so sad! He was my favorite streamer and I really thought he added a lot of charisma to the SlayerS roster! Good luck in all your future endeavors!
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Read up. Destiny cleaned carpets before this, incontrol worked in a gamestop and HD worked in McDonalds. Fruitdealer sold fruit at his parents shop.
The pro Sc2 world is not full of would be Doctors, Lawyers and accountants.
Well, Stephano is thinking of becoming a doctor...
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Money is a big part of life but it is not everything. As long as they are happy and getting by, good for them.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Read up. Destiny cleaned carpets before this, incontrol worked in a gamestop and HD worked in McDonalds. Fruitdealer sold fruit at his parents shop.
The pro Sc2 world is not full of would be Doctors, Lawyers and accountants.
Well, Stephano is thinking of becoming a doctor...
Big difference between thinking about it and actually qualifying as one but even then he's one guy, every other example is the opposite.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Money is a big part of life but it is not everything. As long as they are happy and getting by, good for them.
100% agreed. If something makes you happy, do it. I'm just talking about the financial aspect. I can't really fault anyone for following their dreams even if it isn't the best way to lead their life and it would be foolish of me to do so. What I can do is comment on why or how it isn't the ideal path though.
That doesn't change the part of me that's worried for some lower-tier progamers though. :\
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Read up. Destiny cleaned carpets before this, incontrol worked in a gamestop and HD worked in McDonalds. Fruitdealer sold fruit at his parents shop.
The pro Sc2 world is not full of would be Doctors, Lawyers and accountants.
sure it is not full of them. but you should read up yourself. fruitdealer was selling fruit because his father was ill and he substituded him, so to say.
Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports.
On January 16 2012 17:39 Duravi wrote: I understand that, but in some countries like here in the united states you are required to pay a minimum hourly wage (or equivalent salary) for a fulltime (40+ hours a week) job. So there is a bottom net which even the worst player can't fall below, assuming they are classified as a full-time employee.
"assuming they are classified as a full time employee" by that you mean, assuming that something would happen which isn't possible or true? do you know how jobs work?
if you're going pro in esports, you are self employed. there are no labor laws which protect you against anything, no one gives you health insurance except your parents or your wife, and your tax liability is probably worse in most countries than a typical job.
the only way there will be minimum wages for esports players is if they form a union which enforces it like other american pro sports, and that's not going to happen anytime soon.
On January 16 2012 17:58 Xeris wrote: eSports isn't legal enough to enforce this. Yes technically, if you own a business here in the USA, you are legally obligated to pay minimum wage. You need special government / school board approval to be able to have unpaid internships (you must offer school credit, which you need approval from a school board to do). So technically, 99% of eSports jobs, like almost all of TL staff, is illegal.
It's a huge grey area though, the internet seems to not abide by the same laws an office building does. So it's really unrealistic to expect real world scenarios to apply to this very new, infant, industry.
technically is something you say if you know you are right. you mean to say arguably, which is something you say when you are pulling shit out of your ass that rings vaguely of truth. mobilising volunteer staff on websites which are run for profit is done in plenty of companies larger than tl or esports and the hammer has not come down on anyone yet.
On January 16 2012 17:17 Xeris wrote: Yea of course, for 90% of people, it makes more sense to go to school, get a "normal" job, and make money that way. But if everyone thought that way, there's be only 10 progamers and SC2 would be really, really boring!
Plus, if eSports ever grows to become mainstream and players start making millions of dollars... then it WILL become a viable dream and it WILL become possible for players to retire off salary/tournament winnings.
It's that dream that drives people, I"m sure
i think the dream that drives people is that they get to do something they would do for free and get paid for it. that's why this website was around for a decade supporting a community of players for a game no one would pay a cent for outside of korea.
tens of thousands of people watch the major tournament that shows up each weekend. esports is already mainstream. suggesting it's a pipe dream until players are getting paid millions of dollars is ludicrous -- esports is pretty close to putting up numbers that rival the minor leagues of mainstream sports, or at least it will be once the industry realizes that it's much better to have 150 players making 30,000-50,000 a year rather than tripling the salaries of the three guys who are already making six figures while everyone else lives in their moms basement.
iirc, aa/aaa minor league baseball pay starts out at about 1500-2500/mo.
It's not generally the best decision to be a progamer unless you can reach the highest tier. If you're putting years into your game, you're letting the clock tick on the time you have left to actually get an education and have it be financially useful.
to this and all other arguments like it:
no one is getting into starcraft for the money or career prospects. every single player making decent money was a serious amateur gaming competitor in the years and games before and getting paid peanuts, if anything. if you love to play war3 or starcraft or cs or whatever so much you were one of the best players in the world, you'd be stupid or a coward not to jump at the chance to pay your bills doing the same thing for a few years unless you had a REALLY pressing reason not to (like, your baby sister has cancer and your parents are dead and you have to work three jobs to pay for chemo).
regardless, if you are smart enough and have the drive and persistence to be one of the best in the world at something, you won't starve. yeah, maybe a five or ten year handicap might prevent you from getting an MBA and rising in the ranks in a fortune 500, but if that was your idea of the good life you wouldn't have spent week after week playing starcraft 2 to begin with.
On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote: Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to.
Only in the US. It doesn't work like that in any other country.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Read up. Destiny cleaned carpets before this, incontrol worked in a gamestop and HD worked in McDonalds. Fruitdealer sold fruit at his parents shop.
The pro Sc2 world is not full of would be Doctors, Lawyers and accountants.
sure it is not full of them. but you should read up yourself. fruitdealer was selling fruit because his father was ill and he substituded him, so to say.
Are you serious? Fruitdealer was a Brood War B Teamer and an alcoholic who lacked the dedication to make it despite being talented so he quit and worked for his parents (illness not withstanding). Sc2 was the best thing to ever happen to Fruit Dealer.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote: [quote] I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
Or you know, hopes of supporting a family one day... Kinda hard to do on 20k/yr, not impossible though, but I imagine its kinda hard.
Depends where you live. There's tons of kids in this thread who really don't know what the real world is like. Making 20k a year at 18-21 years old is extremely good in the UK and I imagine most of Europe nevermind how good it is in a country like Poland or Ukraine. Nevermind that while you earn 20k a year you're always only one good tournament a way from increasing that massively in only a weekend of play.
Nor do any players live in the world of 1984 which a lot of people here seem to think where you're bound for life to the career you pick at 16.
Pro gamers have their entire lives before them, nothing wrong at all in taking a few years out to get paid more than their friends for playing games and travelling the world.
They're getting a great deal.
question: is making 20k a year good in the uk because it is 20k pounds? or is making 20k $ a year good as well?
Because I assume that the numbers that have been thrown around all have an (invisible) dollar sign behind them.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: Depends where you live. There's tons of kids in this thread who really don't know what the real world is like. Making 20k a year at 18-21 years old is extremely good in the UK and I imagine most of Europe nevermind how good it is in a country like Poland or Ukraine. Nevermind that while you earn 20k a year you're always only one good tournament a way from increasing that massively in only a weekend of play.
Nor do any players live in the world of 1984 which a lot of people here seem to think where you're bound for life to the career you pick at 16.
Pro gamers have their entire lives before them, nothing wrong at all in taking a few years out to get paid more than their friends for playing games and travelling the world.
They're getting a great deal.
this.
the arguments in this thread are really weird. it's like the demographic i'd assume makes up tl has disappeared because everyone's immigrant grandma or guidance counselor stole their laptops and are typing replies.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote: [quote]
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
Or you know, hopes of supporting a family one day... Kinda hard to do on 20k/yr, not impossible though, but I imagine its kinda hard.
Depends where you live. There's tons of kids in this thread who really don't know what the real world is like. Making 20k a year at 18-21 years old is extremely good in the UK and I imagine most of Europe nevermind how good it is in a country like Poland or Ukraine. Nevermind that while you earn 20k a year you're always only one good tournament a way from increasing that massively in only a weekend of play.
Nor do any players live in the world of 1984 which a lot of people here seem to think where you're bound for life to the career you pick at 16.
Pro gamers have their entire lives before them, nothing wrong at all in taking a few years out to get paid more than their friends for playing games and travelling the world.
They're getting a great deal.
question: is making 20k a year good in the uk because it is 20k pounds? or is making 20k $ a year good as well?
Because I assume that the numbers that have been thrown around all have an (invisible) dollar sign behind them.
I don't know if he is talking pounds or dollars, but making $20k a year in the US is bad, and what unskilled labor can earn.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote: [quote]
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
Or you know, hopes of supporting a family one day... Kinda hard to do on 20k/yr, not impossible though, but I imagine its kinda hard.
Depends where you live. There's tons of kids in this thread who really don't know what the real world is like. Making 20k a year at 18-21 years old is extremely good in the UK and I imagine most of Europe nevermind how good it is in a country like Poland or Ukraine. Nevermind that while you earn 20k a year you're always only one good tournament a way from increasing that massively in only a weekend of play.
Nor do any players live in the world of 1984 which a lot of people here seem to think where you're bound for life to the career you pick at 16.
Pro gamers have their entire lives before them, nothing wrong at all in taking a few years out to get paid more than their friends for playing games and travelling the world.
They're getting a great deal.
question: is making 20k a year good in the uk because it is 20k pounds? or is making 20k $ a year good as well?
Because I assume that the numbers that have been thrown around all have an (invisible) dollar sign behind them.
It depends where you live. If you live in London then $20k is about minimum wage. $20k goes a lot further in anywhere other than London, especially in smaller citys.
£20k is okay in London and not bad at all outside of London.
Keep in mind that your standard graduate job in the UK starts at about £14-20k a year.
The exchange rate is really favourable for Pounds to dollars since you guys started spending all your money invading the world, so it makes $20k seem like less than it used to be and skews the comparison.
On January 16 2012 19:15 hmunkey wrote: It's not generally the best decision to be a progamer unless you can reach the highest tier. If you're putting years into your game, you're letting the clock tick on the time you have left to actually get an education and have it be financially useful.
The pro SC2 would could easily be full of would-be doctors, lawyers, etc. These are intelligent people who have shown they can dedicate themselves to a task. It's going to come back and hurt a lot of progamers in a few years if/when esports has either died down or they're unable to stay even at the mid/low-level of progaming. It sucks, but it's inevitable.
True, especially how the competition is exploding without the formation of many new teams and sponsors. For every new SC2 e-athlete more money is required, bigger tournaments, prize pools, and so on. Otherwise those at the bottom won't be able to survive.
Many organizations have been sizing down recently, so it looks like the valves are closing on e-sports. It's a scary thing, especially when you think how many gamers are jumping on the Starcraft II wave believing wealth and fame await them.
Sure if you go college, you lessen to chance of becoming e-famous. But at least you will have a foreseeable future.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote: [quote]
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
Or you know, hopes of supporting a family one day... Kinda hard to do on 20k/yr, not impossible though, but I imagine its kinda hard.
Depends where you live. There's tons of kids in this thread who really don't know what the real world is like. Making 20k a year at 18-21 years old is extremely good in the UK and I imagine most of Europe nevermind how good it is in a country like Poland or Ukraine. Nevermind that while you earn 20k a year you're always only one good tournament a way from increasing that massively in only a weekend of play.
Nor do any players live in the world of 1984 which a lot of people here seem to think where you're bound for life to the career you pick at 16.
Pro gamers have their entire lives before them, nothing wrong at all in taking a few years out to get paid more than their friends for playing games and travelling the world.
They're getting a great deal.
question: is making 20k a year good in the uk because it is 20k pounds? or is making 20k $ a year good as well?
Because I assume that the numbers that have been thrown around all have an (invisible) dollar sign behind them.
It depends where you live. If you live in London then $20k is about minimum wage. $20k goes a lot further in anywhere other than London, especially in smaller citys.
£20k is okay in London and not bad at all outside of London.
Keep in mind that your standard graduate job in the UK starts at about £14-20k a year.
On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote: Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports.
you're kidding me. you mean the risks of planning your future in a sport where everyone in a league gets paid millions of dollars are less than in a new industry where someone is happy to be paid $750 a month in sponsorship? SERIOUSLY? you must be an actuary or something!
On January 16 2012 19:31 mockturtle wrote: to this and all other arguments like it:
no one is getting into starcraft for the money or career prospects. every single player making decent money was a serious amateur gaming competitor in the years and games before and getting paid peanuts, if anything. if you love to play war3 or starcraft or cs or whatever so much you were one of the best players in the world, you'd be stupid or a coward not to jump at the chance to pay your bills doing the same thing for a few years unless you had a REALLY pressing reason not to (like, your baby sister has cancer and your parents are dead and you have to work three jobs to pay for chemo).
This is already pretty obvious and hardly needs to be restated imo, the question is about players like Golden who are relatively new/unknown compared to people like Grubby/Boxer/etc who could still be in high school and whether making these big risks trying to be "the next best thing" is actually a smart thing to do.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote: [quote]
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
Or you know, hopes of supporting a family one day... Kinda hard to do on 20k/yr, not impossible though, but I imagine its kinda hard.
Depends where you live. There's tons of kids in this thread who really don't know what the real world is like. Making 20k a year at 18-21 years old is extremely good in the UK and I imagine most of Europe nevermind how good it is in a country like Poland or Ukraine. Nevermind that while you earn 20k a year you're always only one good tournament a way from increasing that massively in only a weekend of play.
Nor do any players live in the world of 1984 which a lot of people here seem to think where you're bound for life to the career you pick at 16.
Pro gamers have their entire lives before them, nothing wrong at all in taking a few years out to get paid more than their friends for playing games and travelling the world.
They're getting a great deal.
question: is making 20k a year good in the uk because it is 20k pounds? or is making 20k $ a year good as well?
Because I assume that the numbers that have been thrown around all have an (invisible) dollar sign behind them.
It depends where you live. If you live in London then $20k is about minimum wage. $20k goes a lot further in anywhere other than London, especially in smaller citys.
£20k is okay in London and not bad at all outside of London.
Keep in mind that your standard graduate job in the UK starts at about £14-20k a year.
Average college grad in the US makes over $40k a year starting. Engineers as much as $70k+
Graduate job as in banks, insurance companys, marketing companys etc.. just take on graduates of any serious degree to different kind of office work.
If you graduate in a really specific field like Medicine, Law, Accountancy, Nursing etc.. it obviously has it's own pay scales.
The comparison doesn't really work so well for Europe to US because in the US the rich make a lot more and the poor make a lot less. There's a lot less wealth inequality in Europe.
On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote: Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports.
you're kidding me. you mean the risks of planning your future in a sport where everyone in a league gets paid millions of dollars are less than in a new industry where someone is happy to be paid $750 a month in sponsorship? SERIOUSLY? you must be an actuary or something!
his point was that only the top few % make a good living in either industry. mine is that more than the top few % benefit from being involved in traditional sports. I had many friends who were given full or partial scholarships to their college due to athletics, none of which who went pro in anything.
On January 16 2012 19:27 dafunk wrote: Some people live their whole life playing piano in bars, being a forester, traveling around the world on a boat with their family.
Talking about money when talking about progaming just show how little you understand these guys you cheer for.
for real. if there was little/no money all these guys you would see on the tournament winners list would just be at the top of the ladder instead, doing the same thing for free
On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote: Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports.
you're kidding me. you mean the risks of planning your future in a sport where everyone in a league gets paid millions of dollars are less than in a new industry where someone is happy to be paid $750 a month in sponsorship? SERIOUSLY? you must be an actuary or something!
his point was that only the top few % make a good living in either industry. mine is that more than the top few % benefit from being involved in traditional sports. I had many friends who were given full or partial scholarships to their college due to athletics, none of which who went pro in anything.
What world do you live in where everyone is earning $50,000 a year in their 20s?
On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote: Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports.
you're kidding me. you mean the risks of planning your future in a sport where everyone in a league gets paid millions of dollars are less than in a new industry where someone is happy to be paid $750 a month in sponsorship? SERIOUSLY? you must be an actuary or something!
his point was that only the top few % make a good living in either industry. mine is that more than the top few % benefit from being involved in traditional sports. I had many friends who were given full or partial scholarships to their college due to athletics, none of which who went pro in anything.
What world do you live in where everyone is earning $50,000 a year in their 20s?
When did I say that? The CNN article I linked says the average US college grad last year is earning ~$41k a year. Dispute CNN, not me.
On January 16 2012 19:27 dafunk wrote: Some people live their whole life playing piano in bars, being a forester, traveling around the world on a boat with their family.
Talking about money when talking about progaming just show how little you understand these guys you cheer for.
for real. if there was little/no money all these guys you would see on the tournament winners list would just be at the top of the ladder instead, doing the same thing for free
You actually believe that? I'm pretty sure the scene overall would be alot smaller, lots of "pros" wouldn't play much, and the level of play would be alot worse. Take Idra as an example, from what i can remember he's said straight out that he plays for the cash.
On January 16 2012 19:45 Duravi wrote: his point was that only the top few % make a good living in either industry. mine is that more than the top few % benefit from being involved in traditional sports. I had many friends who were given full or partial scholarships to their college due to athletics, none of which who went pro in anything.
in that argument you're ignoring that in something as ridiculously competitive as american pro sports, you are in the top tiny % if you can actually get a scholarship -- and they got there because their parents spent thousands of dollars putting them in leagues and buying them equipment all throughout their childhood so they could spend hours every week practicing throughout high school and college to get that scholarship. that's a lot of financial investment and work for just a free ride through college that could have ended the second they slipped and blew out their knee.
On January 16 2012 19:51 karpo wrote: You actually believe that? I'm pretty sure the scene overall would be alot smaller, lots of "pros" wouldn't play much, and the level of play would be alot worse. Take Idra as an example, from what i can remember he's said straight out that he plays for the cash.
and you believe that coming from someone who left the country out of high school to sleep on a bunk bed and eat ramen noodles when he could have *never* expected the prosperity he'd see in sc2 years later?
yeah, the scene would be a little smaller, the pros would play less, and they would play worse. those things all respond to incentives. but there's a reason why when you liquipedia all the best players, foreign or korean, they have a competitive gaming history that precedes starcraft 2 . they weren't getting paid then and they couldn't have expected it.
OT: What hasn't really been mentioned in the progamer/education debate is that while progamers who later enter the workforce/higher education will be years behind their age cohort, progaming provides the opportunity to develop several marketable skills. Progamers can demonstrate their capacity for hard work and dedication through their practice schedule, or their interpersonal skills through streaming. They are professionals working under contracts, representing sponsors internationally, and working together in teams. While future careers may not be directly linked to eSports, a progaming career of even 1-2 years duration used well on a resume could give a new graduate a huge boost versus other graduates whose work experience stretches only as far as managing a fast food joint.
On January 16 2012 19:51 karpo wrote: You actually believe that? I'm pretty sure the scene overall would be alot smaller, lots of "pros" wouldn't play much, and the level of play would be alot worse. Take Idra as an example, from what i can remember he's said straight out that he plays for the cash.
and you believe that coming from someone who left the country out of high school to sleep on a bunk bed and eat ramen noodles when he could have *never* expected the prosperity he'd see in sc2 years later?
yeah, the scene would be a little smaller, the pros would play less, and they would play worse. those things all respond to incentives. but there's a reason why when you liquipedia all the best players, foreign or korean, they have a competitive gaming history that precedes starcraft 2 . they weren't getting paid then and they couldn't have expected it.
I agree with your points, I think many of the esports personalities today just love the game so much they would try to do things today even if it paid much less or nothing, and take a job on the side to support themselves. People who are doing esports for money right now make no sense to me, especially those who live in the US.
What you make a year can be a ton or a little depending on where you live. The 20k sum/year was mentioned, let me give you my 2 cents. Where i live i'd be the richest kid on the block if i'd make that much as a 20 year old guy, and if i'd be ~30 years old i'd still be very happy to make that much at this point in time. Quitting college would be a very tempting choice, espcially how the educational system looks nowadays. Pretty much the same goes for anyone from Eastern-Central Europe or the Balkan or Russia. On the other hand if i'd be from Norway middle class and making 20k a year at this age, it would be still decent but if u'd have to risk dropping out from college to do so, it's probably not worth it, since when u're 30+ you should be making a lot more there. The minimum salary/year In the Eastern-Southern region of Europe i mentioned varies from ~1000$ to ~4000$ (not exact numbers), and there are people who have to live on less. Granted life is cheaper too, crucial thing like rent, clothing, groceries, cigars and alcohol are very very cheap compared to Western Europe. But imagine someone from Ukraine (strong starcraft nation) where the minimum salary is around 130 $, making 20k a year just from the salary, and to that adds stream-revenues, prize winnings and whatnot. It's life-changing money. If u upkeep that kind of income for 3-4 years u already have enough to make an investment, or just live decently and do w/e u want for several years.
Now, people were debating top salary players, here's my educated guess: 1. Slayers Boxer - biggest name in e-sports, some company had to pay a huge amount for him to switch and make a team and promote it the way he does (playing, coaching, managing, whatnot), i'm quite comfortable saying he has the largest salary
2. EG.Huk - The hottest foreigner at the time he was signed by the richest foreign team, after (presumably) a bidding war with Liquid`, most likely the 2nd wealthiest team, who signed Huk when he was doing very well comapred to NA scene (no pun intended)
3. EG.Idra The person who was on a korean progaming team, and is in the focus of attention whatever he does, i'm pretty sure EG signed him with a big salary when he was tearing shit up in the beta, then re-signed him with an even bigger. Again, i'm guessing, i could overevaluate this situation very easily
5. MVP Probably the best Korean, who already must have had a decent salary as a relatively successful bw-pro and kept winning a ton everywhere, i'd guess he's the most paid Korean on Korean team.
6. Sase- He was the player to look out for at the moment when quantic came out and signed him for a huge ammount, if rumours can be trusted, i actually was thinking putting him 3rd.
if i'd have to complete a top 10 i would add Puma, Nestea, Naniwa, Nada
Let me know what you think of my list, if anyone has any info, share it, i 'm really interested in players' salary EDIT: Forgot MC, he probably has a huge salary too, most likely top 5
On January 16 2012 17:26 89andy wrote: Now the question is who is in the so called GOD1 and GOD2 tiers haha. Less than 5 people combined in those two tiers I presume?
can you seriously not guess who god1 and 2 are? lol
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
Thx for the post Diamond.
I'm gonna take the optimistic route and say the koreans are starting to respect foreign players as a whole and want to explore other scenes. I'm guessing he didn't like the SlayerS training regimen as well.
On January 16 2012 19:44 Jojo131 wrote: This is already pretty obvious and hardly needs to be restated imo, the question is about players like Golden who are relatively new/unknown compared to people like Grubby/Boxer/etc who could still be in high school and whether making these big risks trying to be "the next best thing" is actually a smart thing to do.
im not sure exactly what your protest is.
re: golden, leaving a team where he's a b teamer with no prospects and trying to get a pay day being the korean ringer for a foreign team is probably the smartest thing for him to do -- moving out of a team house and full time practice atmosphere and participating in an easier community frees him up to spend extra time getting on with his life. he stays with a korean team he gets room and board and plays his ass off and until he qualifies for Code A can expect to make nothing other than room and board, after which he'll have to beat the best players in the world to make anything.
re: players who are "unknown" -- a year ago (or a year and some change), no one knew most of the successful sc2 players. the community is very dynamic and changes rapidly. if you are good enough to win, you won't be unknown for long.
On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote: Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports.
Actually I believe DRG joined MVP in return for educational support?
on topic: Seems like this is just another opportunity for dragon and golden to grow
not a big deal, because neither have actually featured in a big tournament yet.
i haven't seen golden, but dragon is a sexy beast.
if you were ranking the pro sc2 players be level of inventivness, innovation and ingenuity.... dragon would be right at the top of the list along with white ra. they win such a high percentage of those 'non normal' games which would tilt any other top player like stephano or naniwa.
To players like Golden it seems their best bet would be to ask for a small salary, but travel to western events. He could no doubt earn a lot of prize money, just look at Puma who has had no success in the Korean scene but has made a lot of prize money by being one of the few koreans at western tournaments.
On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote: Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports.
Actually I believe DRG joined MVP in return for educational support?
on topic: Seems like this is just another opportunity for dragon and golden to grow
This is 100% correct, now can you name a western team that is supporting any players education financially?
Sadly, SlayerS has like 20-25 players on their team. Coaches focus only on their top stars which is understandable, but the guys who need the training the most, dont get any attention or proper practice from what I hear.
These guys wont be the only ones to leave Slayers if that above is actually true.
On January 16 2012 20:22 Duravi wrote: Just curious, do you mean this like scandinavian teams do, or just that there is a lack of this compared to other US sports?
university is much more attainable in scandinavian countries for everyone -- they're subsidized much more heavily by the government which means you aren't competing for an academic scholarship or in a rush to get a high paying job to pay off your student loans or anything like that. in other words, if you're scandinavian and in high school or college or recently graduated, you have a lot more financial freedom to pursue your passionate hobby without putting your future in jeopardy.
i'd guess mvp's offer of covering education for DRG is significantly less of a financial commitment than sending someone to a typical american state university.
edit:
furthermore, what korea has which america/the west lacks is the a decade old example of having a sustainable business model, so a coach can be in a position to plan and invest for the long term. esports in the west is growing but there have been pockets of growth and failure going on for the past decade, whereas starcraft in korea spent years adapting to what worked to build the only real model of a professional sport that's ever happened in esports, and unfortunately that model isn't workable on a global scale so for international sc2 everyone is still flying blind.
On January 16 2012 16:39 Azzur wrote: Many koreans think that there are riches abroad but he is a no-name korean and will be hard pressed to get any decent money. I'm sure a foreign team will pick him up but the amount they will be willing to pay will be far below what he's expecting.
Well, he's still better and more accomplished than:
On January 16 2012 16:39 Azzur wrote: Many koreans think that there are riches abroad but he is a no-name korean and will be hard pressed to get any decent money. I'm sure a foreign team will pick him up but the amount they will be willing to pay will be far below what he's expecting.
Well, he's still better and more accomplished than:
Well eventually the money in both scenes will even out and these players who transitioned to foreign teams and lost out in quality practice time will never be able to catch up with the koreans koreans and just fade out.
Wow, so many people think of sc2 progaming as just about money. What happened to people playing for the love of the game and stuff? I guess I'm incredibly delusional and idealistic... $ $ $ $_$
On January 16 2012 20:13 Duravi wrote: This is 100% correct, now can you name a western team that is supporting any players education financially?
this is probably a partial but important reason why the US has lagged behind in most competitive gaming while scandinavian countries are very strong.
Getting education in scandinavia is free, i even get paid for going to university. So its much differend from US in terms of educational support. The reason why its much better in sweden i would presume is due to the fact that internet have been easily accessable for a long time while being cheap as well
On January 16 2012 20:22 Duravi wrote: Just curious, do you mean this like scandinavian teams do, or just that there is a lack of this compared to other US sports?
university is much more attainable in scandinavian countries for everyone -- they're subsidized much more heavily by the government which means you aren't competing for an academic scholarship or in a rush to get a high paying job to pay off your student loans or anything like that. in other words, if you're scandinavian and in high school or college or recently graduated, you have a lot more financial freedom to pursue your passionate hobby without putting your future in jeopardy.
i'd guess mvp's offer of covering education for DRG is significantly less of a financial commitment than sending someone to a typical american state university.
edit:
furthermore, what korea has which america/the west lacks is the a decade old example of having a sustainable business model, so a coach can be in a position to plan and invest for the long term. esports in the west is growing but there have been pockets of growth and failure going on for the past decade, whereas starcraft in korea spent years adapting to what worked to build the only real model of a professional sport that's ever happened in esports, and unfortunately that model isn't workable on a global scale so for international sc2 everyone is still flying blind.
We acutally "get paid" for attending university in sweden. There is a sort of "student wellfare" which amounts to roughly $370/month (atleast for me at the moment). In addition to that you can take student loans ofc. Also, pretty much every single school is free to attend (there are a few exceptions to this ofc).
I know that a few years ago, atleast, it was very common for gamers to registrate for university courses simply to get the wellfare each month, and then spent all their time gaming instead of studying, haha.
On January 16 2012 20:22 Duravi wrote: Just curious, do you mean this like scandinavian teams do, or just that there is a lack of this compared to other US sports?
university is much more attainable in scandinavian countries for everyone -- they're subsidized much more heavily by the government which means you aren't competing for an academic scholarship or in a rush to get a high paying job to pay off your student loans or anything like that. in other words, if you're scandinavian and in high school or college or recently graduated, you have a lot more financial freedom to pursue your passionate hobby without putting your future in jeopardy.
i'd guess mvp's offer of covering education for DRG is significantly less of a financial commitment than sending someone to a typical american state university.
edit:
furthermore, what korea has which america/the west lacks is the a decade old example of having a sustainable business model, so a coach can be in a position to plan and invest for the long term. esports in the west is growing but there have been pockets of growth and failure going on for the past decade, whereas starcraft in korea spent years adapting to what worked to build the only real model of a professional sport that's ever happened in esports, and unfortunately that model isn't workable on a global scale so for international sc2 everyone is still flying blind.
We acutally "get paid" for attending university in sweden. There is a sort of "student wellfare" which amounts to roughly $370/month (atleast for me at the moment). In addition to that you can take student loans ofc. Also, pretty much every single school is free to attend (there are a few exceptions to this ofc).
I know that a few years ago, atleast, it was very common for gamers to registrate for university courses simply to get the wellfare each month, and then spent all their time gaming instead of studying, haha.
Partly true about the last part of your post, but actually, if you do not achive grade X in class Y, the CSN (student loan / welfare) is revoked and you need to reapply.
On January 16 2012 20:22 Duravi wrote: Just curious, do you mean this like scandinavian teams do, or just that there is a lack of this compared to other US sports?
university is much more attainable in scandinavian countries for everyone -- they're subsidized much more heavily by the government which means you aren't competing for an academic scholarship or in a rush to get a high paying job to pay off your student loans or anything like that. in other words, if you're scandinavian and in high school or college or recently graduated, you have a lot more financial freedom to pursue your passionate hobby without putting your future in jeopardy.
i'd guess mvp's offer of covering education for DRG is significantly less of a financial commitment than sending someone to a typical american state university.
edit:
furthermore, what korea has which america/the west lacks is the a decade old example of having a sustainable business model, so a coach can be in a position to plan and invest for the long term. esports in the west is growing but there have been pockets of growth and failure going on for the past decade, whereas starcraft in korea spent years adapting to what worked to build the only real model of a professional sport that's ever happened in esports, and unfortunately that model isn't workable on a global scale so for international sc2 everyone is still flying blind.
We acutally "get paid" for attending university in sweden. There is a sort of "student wellfare" which amounts to roughly $370/month (atleast for me at the moment). In addition to that you can take student loans ofc. Also, pretty much every single school is free to attend (there are a few exceptions to this ofc).
I know that a few years ago, atleast, it was very common for gamers to registrate for university courses simply to get the wellfare each month, and then spent all their time gaming instead of studying, haha.
Partly true about the last part of your post, but actually, if you do not achive grade X in class Y, the CSN (student loan / welfare) is revoked and you need to reapply.
The loan is revoked if you don't achieve, yes. But i think you can get wellfare for atleast 3 years after high school without having it revoked. Atleast you could a few years ago, it might have changed. I know that in the early 2000s CSN was a lot less strict.
On January 16 2012 20:22 Duravi wrote: Just curious, do you mean this like scandinavian teams do, or just that there is a lack of this compared to other US sports?
university is much more attainable in scandinavian countries for everyone -- they're subsidized much more heavily by the government which means you aren't competing for an academic scholarship or in a rush to get a high paying job to pay off your student loans or anything like that. in other words, if you're scandinavian and in high school or college or recently graduated, you have a lot more financial freedom to pursue your passionate hobby without putting your future in jeopardy.
i'd guess mvp's offer of covering education for DRG is significantly less of a financial commitment than sending someone to a typical american state university.
edit:
furthermore, what korea has which america/the west lacks is the a decade old example of having a sustainable business model, so a coach can be in a position to plan and invest for the long term. esports in the west is growing but there have been pockets of growth and failure going on for the past decade, whereas starcraft in korea spent years adapting to what worked to build the only real model of a professional sport that's ever happened in esports, and unfortunately that model isn't workable on a global scale so for international sc2 everyone is still flying blind.
We acutally "get paid" for attending university in sweden. There is a sort of "student wellfare" which amounts to roughly $370/month (atleast for me at the moment). In addition to that you can take student loans ofc. Also, pretty much every single school is free to attend (there are a few exceptions to this ofc).
I know that a few years ago, atleast, it was very common for gamers to registrate for university courses simply to get the wellfare each month, and then spent all their time gaming instead of studying, haha.
Partly true about the last part of your post, but actually, if you do not achive grade X in class Y, the CSN (student loan / welfare) is revoked and you need to reapply.
The loan is revoked if you don't achieve, yes. But i think you can get wellfare for atleast 3 years after high school without having it revoked. Atleast you could a few years ago, it might have changed. I know that in the early 2000s CSN was a lot less strict.
You need to pass in 50% of the total amount of points the first term and 75% for the rest of your studies. Which roughly means you need to pass 3/4 courses per term to not loose your welfare and be forced to start repay the loan.
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Well why is it always so much secret about player's wages? Finally we get some knowledge about it. We never get to know how long the contract is and how much it's, zzz.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Are those figures monthly? Just curious, since I know nothing of SC2 progamer salaries (and have always been a bit curious).
edit: nvm, answered.
Monthly (not daily, lulz :D)
Those figures are NOT close to being what most pros actually make, mind you.
Salary ranges are like:
GOD1 -- probably an even ungodlier amount! (jk i actually have no clue, but I'm making an assumption that his personal intel sponsorship is huge)
GOD2 -- ungodly amount
TIER 1 players -- around 30-50k per year range (rough estimate)
TIER 2 -- around 15-25k per year range
High skilled but less "famous" pros (aka TIER 3) -- probably 5-10k per year range
Disclaimer: I actually have no idea what the actual player salaries are. These are rough estimates based on other information I know, and could be totally wrong. The only numbers I actually know are the salary requests of people like X AND Y because I've looked into recruiting them.
Wow I actually thought players made alot more then that, even tho its a rough estimate. I think I could actually sponsor a team by myself =o still tho, there's alot of t1/god2 players out there!
With all the costs involved of flying players all over the world and with the large amount of players not really being marketable representatives for their team, brand or sponsors I was thinking the opposite actually.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
Yeah, in the short-term. The thing is, time spent developing a career or getting an education generally pays off far more, but in the long-term. A progamer might make more than the average 18-23 year old, but if you add up the total amount earned in say 20 years, the average 18-23 year old will be leagues ahead. Of course, by average 18-23 year old, I mean the average educated person in that group.
The point is being a progamer is a risk because it involves sacrificing your long-term future for a short burst of cash (which may not even come). Yeah they can go to school later in life, but let's be honest here -- no one is getting a job if they're 30, just graduated, and have no work experience. This is especially true in professional fields.
Read up. Destiny cleaned carpets before this, incontrol worked in a gamestop and HD worked in McDonalds. Fruitdealer sold fruit at his parents shop.
The pro Sc2 world is not full of would be Doctors, Lawyers and accountants.
Well duh, most are teenagers, how the hell do you expect them to be doctors? We are talking about the potential here. You could play sc2 for 10 years and have no education afterwards or you could study medicine, law or whatever for those 10 years.
I think keeping salaries secret actually is worse for the players.
If everyone knows, and knows someone makes little money it is easier to know you can make a difference. Like, some rich guy that loves eSports could actually personally sponsor a player. Because to many it is not that much money.
Like that Lazarus kid, he had his own pro-gaming team, right? What if people knew it took so little money? There could be an influx on money because of that.
On January 16 2012 17:26 89andy wrote: Now the question is who is in the so called GOD1 and GOD2 tiers haha. Less than 5 people combined in those two tiers I presume?
can you seriously not guess who god1 and 2 are? lol
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
you are in way over your head if you just said "not that hard" when it comes to being a doctor, engineer(are you either of those things? I'm guessing no).
it's one thing to talk about SC2 as a career, another thing entirely to talk about taking SC2 skills and suggesting it's equivalent towards becoming a doctor
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
you are in way over your head if you just said "not that hard" when it comes to being a doctor, engineer(are you either of those things? I'm guessing no).
it's one thing to talk about SC2 as a career, another thing entirely to talk about taking SC2 skills and suggesting it's equivalent towards becoming a doctor
well i know dozens of people who will be enginers or doctors very soon, but wouldnt be able to hit GM level in sc2 if their life was depending on it no matter what the circumstances.
That being said, becoming a doctor is very hard because probably one does not enjoy learning as much to be able to put in 10+ hours, while it's fairly easy to commit that much time to ur favorite hobby. And it's a way longer process, one can become a progamer in 1 year if he's lucky and good enough, no matter how good and smart u are u dont become a doctor without finishing the looong medschool (and school before that)
SlayerS_Jessica Two players from SlayerS are going to walk their own paths now. Golden wanted to break into the foreign scene and Dragon wants to return to his main career and play Starcraft 2 as a hobby. We respect the decisions of both players and officially release them to pursue it.
The translation is a bit rough and not at all accurate on the last line. It was the closest I could get it without it sounding really weird (already sounds weird though).
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
yea idk why anyone would really do that... but after this move, i think korean teams are going to start having to pay their players now all the korean players are hopin on the $$$$ train and non korean teams are playing the $$$$
On January 16 2012 21:41 Jotoco wrote: I think keeping salaries secret actually is worse for the players.
If everyone knows, and knows someone makes little money it is easier to know you can make a difference. Like, some rich guy that loves eSports could actually personally sponsor a player. Because to many it is not that much money.
Like that Lazarus kid, he had his own pro-gaming team, right? What if people knew it took so little money? There could be an influx on money because of that.
About the actual salaries of players I can probably say Idra and Huk probably have the best salaries.
They both (and specially Idra) can move HUGE amounts of viewers and bring so much marketing to your brand.
Secret salaries are generally worse for players, but there are always a few that will make it anyway. The main issue is how hardball they can go in dealing with the team. The stars that can be a pain in the ass about money, or have someone being a pain for them, will have a upper hand. The rest will probably suffer more than needed due to teams compensating all over to meet the highest demands.
If players would care anything about getting anything done as a group, they should form a players union of some sort. This is something teams happy with current way of work do not want. It can be said to be a "forced" situation due to sponsor money etc etc, but that is just talking around the real subject.
On January 16 2012 22:56 Poehalcho wrote: Dragon needs to go to Quantic. I can already imagine it, Destiny and Dragon happy troll hour.
Thats what I was thinking. Destiny knows how good dragon is as dragon has a winning record vs him (5 - 1 i believe). Maybe he could put in a good word for him.
On January 16 2012 21:41 Jotoco wrote: I think keeping salaries secret actually is worse for the players.
If everyone knows, and knows someone makes little money it is easier to know you can make a difference. Like, some rich guy that loves eSports could actually personally sponsor a player. Because to many it is not that much money.
Like that Lazarus kid, he had his own pro-gaming team, right? What if people knew it took so little money? There could be an influx on money because of that.
About the actual salaries of players I can probably say Idra and Huk probably have the best salaries.
They both (and specially Idra) can move HUGE amounts of viewers and bring so much marketing to your brand.
Then let the players decide what to reveal and what not. Don't do it for them. It's also very different to reveal a finalized contract than to reveal positions in ongoing negotiations like Xeris just did. That's completely inappropriate.
On January 16 2012 21:41 Jotoco wrote: I think keeping salaries secret actually is worse for the players.
If everyone knows, and knows someone makes little money it is easier to know you can make a difference. Like, some rich guy that loves eSports could actually personally sponsor a player. Because to many it is not that much money.
Like that Lazarus kid, he had his own pro-gaming team, right? What if people knew it took so little money? There could be an influx on money because of that.
About the actual salaries of players I can probably say Idra and Huk probably have the best salaries.
They both (and specially Idra) can move HUGE amounts of viewers and bring so much marketing to your brand.
Secret salaries are generally worse for players, but there are always a few that will make it anyway. The main issue is how hardball they can go in dealing with the team. The stars that can be a pain in the ass about money, or have someone being a pain for them, will have a upper hand. The rest will probably suffer more than needed due to teams compensating all over to meet the highest demands.
If players would care anything about getting anything done as a group, they should form a players union of some sort. This is something teams happy with current way of work do not want. It can be said to be a "forced" situation due to sponsor money etc etc, but that is just talking around the real subject.
Your aware that it was stated around page 3-4 of this thread that people in Esports (players, team, Diamond (casters) know roughly how much everyone is making. If your simply a TL poster you have no idea. Basically the players know how much everyone is making, it just us the outsiders that don't.
Eventually it will come to a stage that we will know, but till then the players aren't getting the short end unless there signing their first contract and have no idea how much other pros are making in there same skill level.
January 16th, 2012, Seoul - We are sad to announce that Dragon and Golden decided to leave our team. Golden, who has been a part of our team since the very beginning, decided to part ways with our team after a long discussion with our management, where he expressed his strong desire to explore his opportunities in a foreign team. Dragon, however, decided to put gaming aside, at least from a professional perspective, in order to fully focus on work.
We wish both players the best of luck, and we would like our appreciation towards both for being a part of our teama in 2011.
On January 16 2012 21:09 tDKyou wrote: DRAGON TO QUANTIC, CALLING IT.
yeah i think so too! Quantic or coL? >.<
I was thinking Quantic since they're in need of some Terran power lol. They've been snagging a decent amount of players lately and they have a setup with Startale to accommodate for training in Korea whereas coL doesn't (to my knowledge.) Plus it'd be interesting to see how Dragon would behave under the same roof as Destiny :p.
On January 16 2012 21:09 tDKyou wrote: DRAGON TO QUANTIC, CALLING IT.
yeah i think so too! Quantic or coL? >.<
I was thinking Quantic since they're in need of some Terran power lol. They've been snagging a decent amount of players lately and they have a setup with Startale to accommodate for training in Korea whereas coL doesn't (to my knowledge.) Plus it'd be interesting to see how Dragon would behave under the same roof as Destiny :p.
coL has the MVP house... they were the 2nd team to setup korean housing after TL i think
On January 16 2012 21:09 tDKyou wrote: DRAGON TO QUANTIC, CALLING IT.
yeah i think so too! Quantic or coL? >.<
I was thinking Quantic since they're in need of some Terran power lol. They've been snagging a decent amount of players lately and they have a setup with Startale to accommodate for training in Korea whereas coL doesn't (to my knowledge.) Plus it'd be interesting to see how Dragon would behave under the same roof as Destiny :p.
coL has the MVP house... they were the 2nd team to setup korean housing after TL i think
OH RIGHT. I completely spaced lol.. I knew I was forgetting something.
On January 16 2012 21:09 tDKyou wrote: DRAGON TO QUANTIC, CALLING IT.
yeah i think so too! Quantic or coL? >.<
I was thinking Quantic since they're in need of some Terran power lol. They've been snagging a decent amount of players lately and they have a setup with Startale to accommodate for training in Korea whereas coL doesn't (to my knowledge.) Plus it'd be interesting to see how Dragon would behave under the same roof as Destiny :p.
coL has the MVP house... they were the 2nd team to setup korean housing after TL i think
On January 16 2012 17:26 89andy wrote: Now the question is who is in the so called GOD1 and GOD2 tiers haha. Less than 5 people combined in those two tiers I presume?
can you seriously not guess who god1 and 2 are? lol
Flash JD & Bisu
Is this a troll or am I just retarded?
I was 99% sure God1=Idra and God2=HuK untill I read this...
On January 16 2012 17:26 89andy wrote: Now the question is who is in the so called GOD1 and GOD2 tiers haha. Less than 5 people combined in those two tiers I presume?
can you seriously not guess who god1 and 2 are? lol
Flash JD & Bisu
Is this a troll or am I just retarded?
I was 99% sure God1=Idra and God2=HuK untill I read this...
It's most likely a troll since none of those players play SC2
I keep thinking back to what TT1 posted earlier. He wasn't the first person to say those things, but I am starting to wonder more what things will look like 5 years from now in terms of progaming inside and outside South Korea. Will non-South Korean teams work hard to develop their own crop of players, or will they resort of enticing Koreans to join them? There's nothing wrong with bringing Korean players into your teams, but do you end up sacrificing providing the resources to your own local players by doing so?
I have watched quite a bit of Dragon's stream and he's great to watch, and maybe alot of the engagement he gets from his international fans is making him want to join a foreign team more.
On January 16 2012 17:26 89andy wrote: Now the question is who is in the so called GOD1 and GOD2 tiers haha. Less than 5 people combined in those two tiers I presume?
can you seriously not guess who god1 and 2 are? lol
Flash JD & Bisu
Is this a troll or am I just retarded?
I was 99% sure God1=Idra and God2=HuK untill I read this...
Uhm, it says that he is assuming his personal intel sponsorship is huge. Idra doesnt have personal intel sponsorship, does he? I assumed it was Boxer.
I think Idra/Huk gets around 4k a month as a salary? Also random benefits/EG doesnt take any percentage of tournament winnings etc I believe...
On January 16 2012 17:26 89andy wrote: Now the question is who is in the so called GOD1 and GOD2 tiers haha. Less than 5 people combined in those two tiers I presume?
can you seriously not guess who god1 and 2 are? lol
Flash JD & Bisu
Is this a troll or am I just retarded?
I was 99% sure God1=Idra and God2=HuK untill I read this...
It's most likely a troll since none of those players play SC2
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Wow those are pretty high numbers. 0_o
Anyone that pays $3k for SangHo is out of their minds.
Hence why neither of them have found teams.
nono sangho to teamliquid. i'm almost 100% certain
Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month. Why tarnish his image simply because you had a difficult time dealing with some Koreans and NASL, and (i guess) while you were affiliated w/ fnatic?
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
He was merely mentioning what those two players wanted as an example of why MOST Koreans seem to want to join foreigner teams. Golden is an exception because he's not leaving the Team House environment for a foreign team like many Koreans are trying to do.
Likewise, any team looking to pick up Dragon would be in it for the attention, not the player skill as he won't be a competitve player ever, of his own accord.
Regarding the numbers. Most European players don't even earn close to 1500 a month. Afaik, it starts at around 150, and you can sign a player that regularily wins online tournaments starting at 500 a month.
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument. Also, he's done some pretty wildly unprofessional things with NASL and it just seems like he needs a bit of training in PR and whatnot. that is all. don't agree, that's fine, but don't use "u only agreed cuz he admin" as your argument
On January 17 2012 00:19 xSixGeneralHan wrote: Koreans think there is a ton of money overseas, very inflated viewpoints based on a select few.
And if events keep beeing as stacked as Providence was last year, Its pretty much gonna be as hard as playing the GSL (if not harder, regarding the circumstances foreign tournaments are played at, no preparation, 20 games on 1 day, etc.)
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
wait, so you think 1.5k and 3k a month is alot?
that's 18k and 36k a year respectively... That is a piss poor amount, especially for a "sport" industry where players die out after ~10 years of activity
If those amount are too much for sc2 pros, then sc2 won't ever be a big spectator sport
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
Nope. Merely that it's pretty lacking in professionalism.
On January 17 2012 00:21 Kwanny wrote: Regarding the numbers. Most European players don't even earn close to 1500 a month. Afaik, it starts at around 150, and you can sign a player that regularily wins online tournaments starting at 500 a month.
Wait? That's so false. And how can you say something like that? Before you actually post you should get some facts first.
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
wait, so you think 1.5k and 3k a month is alot?
that's 18k and 36k a year respectively... That is a piss poor amount, especially for a "sport" industry where players die out after ~10 years of activity
If those amount are too much for sc2 pros, then sc2 won't ever be a big spectator sport
On January 16 2012 20:42 KawaiiRice wrote: Wow, so many people think of sc2 progaming as just about money. What happened to people playing for the love of the game and stuff? I guess I'm incredibly delusional and idealistic... $ $ $ $_$
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
wait, so you think 1.5k and 3k a month is alot?
that's 18k and 36k a year respectively... That is a piss poor amount, especially for a "sport" industry where players die out after ~10 years of activity
If those amount are too much for sc2 pros, then sc2 won't ever be a big spectator sport
You do realise things start from somewhere? They don't just magically come into existence.
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
wait, so you think 1.5k and 3k a month is alot?
that's 18k and 36k a year respectively... That is a piss poor amount, especially for a "sport" industry where players die out after ~10 years of activity
If those amount are too much for sc2 pros, then sc2 won't ever be a big spectator sport
You do realise things start from somewhere? They don't just magically come into existence.
sure, but you'll think any starting industry would at least starts off with a wage more than the minimum wage.
SC2 has only been out a year, and BW is still going strong after more than a decade. I'm pretty sure tennis/soccer/basketball did not pay this well when they were this young, and we've yet to have tycoons like Abramovich invest in the scene!
...well, except for a certain rich Chinese kid. iG.Dragon/iG.Golden? They have very lucky names for a Chinese team, 2012 being year of the Dragon and all... (Also not unprecedented, Lyn is on the Chinese team PanDa, though playing WC3 mostly)
It's kind of sad for Dragon, he was a truly entertaining player, but it seems pretty obvious that he couldn't keep the same rhythm he had. You can't sleep 3 hours a day while working.
LOL $3000 a month is a lot if you're not paying for housing or food.... Probably not for a car either. So pretty much that's $3000 of entertainment living.
On January 16 2012 17:07 karpo wrote: Sure, Golden might not win Dreamhack but didn't Sjow win alot of cash just cruising through alot of smaller tournaments online? I'm guessing Golden should be able to win alot of those.
No, Sjow is no online hero. He doesn't hardly participate in any of the small online cups these days. He has won IEM European Championship (7.5k), The Gathering (5k) and IeSF (12.75k).
wont be very hard for dragon to find a new team since he has a decent stream population. golden i dont know hes better than dragon but nobody really knows him
if people are gonna ever take esports seriously financial info needs to be more open (not saying it was right to discuss it here i just mean in general)
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
wait, so you think 1.5k and 3k a month is alot?
that's 18k and 36k a year respectively... That is a piss poor amount, especially for a "sport" industry where players die out after ~10 years of activity
If those amount are too much for sc2 pros, then sc2 won't ever be a big spectator sport
It doesn't matter what you; or anyone else considers "alot". What matters is what the community can support. What do you honestly think organizations get from sponsors? Golden doubloons? That is some organizations entire monthly budget...if you're lucky..and most players asking for that much are simply not worth it.
On January 16 2012 22:53 desRow wrote: Golden only wants travel expenses shouldnt be too hard for him to find a team
Travel expenses....from Korea. Not exactly a drop in a bucket.
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
wait, so you think 1.5k and 3k a month is alot?
that's 18k and 36k a year respectively... That is a piss poor amount, especially for a "sport" industry where players die out after ~10 years of activity
If those amount are too much for sc2 pros, then sc2 won't ever be a big spectator sport
It doesn't matter what you; or anyone else considers "alot". What matters is what the community can support. What do you honestly think organizations get from sponsors? Golden doubloons? That is some organizations entire monthly budget...if you're lucky..and most players asking for that much are simply not worth it.
i think they left because slayers is very strict on practice and stay at the slayers house. golden left the house, and dragon never been to it. just like ogs did with zenio, they prolly advised them that they would soon part ways if they didnt take it seriously.
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
wait, so you think 1.5k and 3k a month is alot?
that's 18k and 36k a year respectively... That is a piss poor amount, especially for a "sport" industry where players die out after ~10 years of activity
If those amount are too much for sc2 pros, then sc2 won't ever be a big spectator sport
It doesn't matter what you; or anyone else considers "alot". What matters is what the community can support. What do you honestly think organizations get from sponsors? Golden doubloons? That is some organizations entire monthly budget...if you're lucky..and most players asking for that much are simply not worth it.
On January 16 2012 22:53 desRow wrote: Golden only wants travel expenses shouldnt be too hard for him to find a team
Travel expenses....from Korea. Not exactly a drop in a bucket.
Travel expenses isnt that bad as teams dont send players to everyyy tournament.
i had a good talk about this with one of the team managers in providence its a heck of a lot and makes decisions on what to do with certain players come tournament time very difficult
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
wait, so you think 1.5k and 3k a month is alot?
that's 18k and 36k a year respectively... That is a piss poor amount, especially for a "sport" industry where players die out after ~10 years of activity
If those amount are too much for sc2 pros, then sc2 won't ever be a big spectator sport
It doesn't matter what you; or anyone else considers "alot". What matters is what the community can support. What do you honestly think organizations get from sponsors? Golden doubloons? That is some organizations entire monthly budget...if you're lucky..and most players asking for that much are simply not worth it.
On January 16 2012 22:53 desRow wrote: Golden only wants travel expenses shouldnt be too hard for him to find a team
Travel expenses....from Korea. Not exactly a drop in a bucket.
Travel expenses isnt that bad as teams dont send players to everyyy tournament.
No, let's just say it's MLG only. You're looking at 4-5 events at $1,500/piece. Once again, not exactly a drop in a bucket..and that is only MLG. Mighty big investment for just some decent stream numbers. I hope he does get a team, and I am sure he will...I am just trying to give people a little perspective.
It took forever for football and other now popular sports to take off in the US. In fact, many household names had a day job and were paid shitty salaries to play semi-pro/pro games on weekends before they "made it". (Johnny Unitas for example)
Well slayers does have a lot of players, and these guys aren't really the stars of the team, granted they play in the clan wars and stuff, but it does make sense that they would leave for a better spot on a team.
On January 17 2012 01:38 Sabu113 wrote: Xerjs comes drops the wisdom. Flamed for being unprofessional.
=.=
what he did was incredibly stupid
On January 17 2012 01:40 darthfoley wrote: It took forever for football and other now popular sports to take off in the US. In fact, many household names had a day job and were paid shitty salaries to play semi-pro/pro games on weekends before they "made it". (Johnny Unitas for example)
On January 17 2012 01:38 Sabu113 wrote: Xerjs comes drops the wisdom. Flamed for being unprofessional.
=.=
Its silly because everyone has a general idea of what other professions make, but the people behinds the scenes in esports don't want anyone to have a clue. Makes no sense.
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
wait, so you think 1.5k and 3k a month is alot?
that's 18k and 36k a year respectively... That is a piss poor amount, especially for a "sport" industry where players die out after ~10 years of activity
If those amount are too much for sc2 pros, then sc2 won't ever be a big spectator sport
It doesn't matter what you; or anyone else considers "alot". What matters is what the community can support. What do you honestly think organizations get from sponsors? Golden doubloons? That is some organizations entire monthly budget...if you're lucky..and most players asking for that much are simply not worth it.
On January 16 2012 22:53 desRow wrote: Golden only wants travel expenses shouldnt be too hard for him to find a team
Travel expenses....from Korea. Not exactly a drop in a bucket.
I'm simply pointing out that those numbers are not a lot. Obviously its up to the sponsors to determine whether it is worth it or not, though its quite a hypocrisy for you to decide whether players are asking "too much" when you don't know anything about their worth
Why would you ask for less than the minimum wage? you'll be better off just working at mcdonalds!
This often does not work and I really have noticed that Korean players often do not fully understand what it takes to be a marketable player who would appeal to sponsors in the foreign scene. They hear about some players getting a lot of money I.E. HuK, Idra, and NaNiwa and they then feel that oh, I'm better then them or at least their level so I deserve as much money as them as well. This sadly is not how e-sports works and although you may be talented, if you do not stream, have no fanbase, do not have an interesting personality, and do not speak English, you will not be picked up (for high amounts of money) in a foreign team.
This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
A lot of pros interviews have said that the ability to travel around the world is a big reason its worth it. I know that people such as Darkforce take the time to enjoy the area whenever they go to tournaments. Supporting your ability to travel around the world by playing video games is a really appetizing concept for a lot of people.
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
Yes, this thread is making me feel really bad for those threads I see about "I'm going pro, guys" when they are only in diamond or something and they are talking about leaving school. It seems way harder than I thought to actually make it and there really isn't any money in it. You also seem to need two things - raw talent and marketability. Someone should warn kids not to quit school or leave school or even put it off to be a pro unless you have stephano-like results and can financially rationalize putting off your school/real career for a year or two. I understand chasing a dream, but I think you have to be honest if you can do the dream or not.
these numbers for salaries aren't too surprising, I had pretty much surmised the approximate values that sc2 players looked for. I am glad that xeris said something that helped us understand that gaming is not a glamorous life, but it is still quite nice. he probably should have left names out but meh.
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
the point of being a progamer is not to make a lot of money but to make a lot of expriences , get to travel all over the world and make some connections so you can maybe later even get a job in the buisness most pros just take some years off between university and work and live their dream for some years
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
I don't think that any one going pro (someone that have the skill to do it, not someone who just dream to and is like plat) is doing it to earn a shit ton of money. That would be retarded. We pretty much all know that this is not paid that well. Still, most people who aim for that are doing it to earn a living from what they like the most.
If you don't "love" to go to tournamenet, to play, to train, to compete... if it's a "job" for you, and not a hobby that you are actually so good that you are paid to do it, to entertain people with you skills, then obviously don't go pro.
And it's not that hard to go back to school if you are 18-21 and pro-gaming is not working that well for you.
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
What's the difference between esports and regular sports or entertainment industry then? Just like those, esports industry is a seletive market, you can't guarantee what you can make and only a handful of people can make it out of thousands of people. There's nothing wrong with trying to go to your dream or something for a year or so, it's not like youth nowaday (around 20s) have big thing to do or great job that can change the world or something.
This is a trend that probably needs stopping. A lot of these Koreans think they will get paid massive salaries on foreign teams and thus leave their fantastic Korean team. Unfortunately, this is like sinking your own ship and waiting around for a luxury cruise ship to save you. It's not going to happen. They probably should lower their expectations but the best decision would have been to stay on their own teams.
Why this secretism about players salary?? sotg 60 or kennigit in this thread. I'm not saying we must know how much does each player earn, but why the fuck xeris can't release info?
I like when everything is transparent, including eSports. Why is it "too early to release that kind of information"? Is it an excuse for not being transparent? I am not going to say dirty or illegal, but if you were to consider SC2 to be sports and a job, and if they don't pay minimum wage, it might as well be illegal.
If anything, tax info, salaries etc. should be available for transparency reasons. Now, you might not make it official how much each player earns, but somebody has to know it, and people knowing the range doesn't hurt.
What Xeris did may not be seen as something good by those particular players (Sangho and Sleep) or Fnatic, but this kind of info should be official somewhere, even if fans don't know.
Ya. Poor uninformed Koreans. They're gonna leave their teams and can't get into any decent paying foreign ones. Then they'll probably get low-balled and have to join some low-level team for a tiny salary. Then as their skills and confidence deteriorates, that's the end of their gaming career.
Was Dragon ever on the team? I though he was just part of the clan? I also thought he didn't really participate in any tournaments was more of a streamer than a pro. Anyways, good luck to both.
it's not as easy as saying "try it out for 1 year, if it doesn't work out it's not that hard to go back to school"
After graduating I spent 2 years playing poker as a professional. Then I decided I wasn't good enough and started looking for a real job.
I have a degree with honors in engineering. With that, I spent 1 year unemployed and actively looking for a job. The one I ended up accepting is nowhere near as good as a job you'd expect to get with straight As in engineering. A two year hole in your resume is huge.
If you spend a few years doing something unmarketable, when looking for a job you will be competing against people with a few years more experience than you, all else being equal.
Of course it's perfectly reasonable to argue that 2 years is not that big of a deal, if you don't live the dream when you're 20 when will you? but unfortunately, that's not the way the world works.
On January 17 2012 02:38 vnlegend wrote: Ya. Poor uninformed Koreans. They're gonna leave their teams and can't get into any decent paying foreign ones. Then they'll probably get low-balled and have to join some low-level team for a tiny salary. Then as their skills and confidence deteriorates, that's the end of their gaming career.
Agree with this, too.
These Korean kids better talk to some others who have made this mistake before. Talk and learn what are the conditions before making a mistake. In fact, it's best if they negotiate conditions and contract before leaving their current teams.
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
What's the difference between esports and regular sports or entertainment industry then? Just like those, esports industry is a seletive market, you can't guarantee what you can make and only a handful of people can make it out of thousands of people. There's nothing wrong with trying to go to your dream or something for a year or so, it's not like youth nowaday (around 20s) have big thing to do or great job that can change the world or something.
theres a minimum pay in most professional sports that is a very good salary and the players go to college for something else while playing so if they dont make it into the pros they already have the means to take their career in a different direction
As many people have pointed out, some koreans are just expecting too much. The grass won't be greener on the other side if they just want to cross it. They haven't achieved anything, at all. I wouldn't count teamleagues at all. If they're not Code A atleast, I dont see foreigners invest in a korean (I know there are some exceptions like DRG tearing GSTL apart when he was Code B, and HerO on oGs)
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
I don't think that any one going pro (someone that have the skill to do it, not someone who just dream to and is like plat) is doing it to earn a shit ton of money. That would be retarded. We pretty much all know that this is not paid that well. Still, most people who aim for that are doing it to earn a living from what they like the most.
If you don't "love" to go to tournamenet, to play, to train, to compete... if it's a "job" for you, and not a hobby that you are actually so good that you are paid to do it, to entertain people with you skills, then obviously don't go pro.
And it's not that hard to go back to school if you are 18-21 and pro-gaming is not working that well for you.
Funny thing is... Im 18, Ive worked at mcdonalds (I hated it..), Im in plat league, and I train everyday for long hours with hopes of becoming a progamer soon. I guess I should find a gun and shoot myself right?
On January 16 2012 16:39 Azzur wrote: Many koreans think that there are riches abroad but he is a no-name korean and will be hard pressed to get any decent money. I'm sure a foreign team will pick him up but the amount they will be willing to pay will be far below what he's expecting.
Calling him a no-name korean is stupid. He's in fucking Code S. The top foreigners even have trouble in Code A and Up/Downs, let alone Code S. You forget that often times, (sadly), any of your "no-name" koreans are still miles better than the vast majority of foreign pros. He is a Code-S player. How many of your foreigner heroes have earned that? Don't get me wrong, I want foreigners up there. But there's more to a name than your personality.
On January 16 2012 16:39 Azzur wrote: Many koreans think that there are riches abroad but he is a no-name korean and will be hard pressed to get any decent money. I'm sure a foreign team will pick him up but the amount they will be willing to pay will be far below what he's expecting.
Calling him a no-name korean is stupid. He's in fucking Code S. The top foreigners even have trouble in Code A and Up/Downs, let alone Code S. You forget that often times, (sadly), any of your "no-name" koreans are still miles better than the vast majority of foreign pros. He is a Code-S player. How many of your foreigner heroes have earned that? Don't get me wrong, I want foreigners up there. But there's more to a name than your personality.
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
I don't think that any one going pro (someone that have the skill to do it, not someone who just dream to and is like plat) is doing it to earn a shit ton of money. That would be retarded. We pretty much all know that this is not paid that well. Still, most people who aim for that are doing it to earn a living from what they like the most.
If you don't "love" to go to tournamenet, to play, to train, to compete... if it's a "job" for you, and not a hobby that you are actually so good that you are paid to do it, to entertain people with you skills, then obviously don't go pro.
And it's not that hard to go back to school if you are 18-21 and pro-gaming is not working that well for you.
Funny thing is... Im 18, Ive worked at mcdonalds (I hated it..), Im in plat league, and I train everyday for long hours with hopes of becoming a progamer soon. I guess I should find a gun and shoot myself right?
No but you might need a better plan than becoming a professional gamer. If gaming is your passion then there are lots of jobs involved in gaming which aren't the risky pro-gamer route. Indie developing (again a bit risky) or gaming journalism are a few careers you could look into.
On January 17 2012 03:19 xXFireandIceXx wrote: oh boy Slayers Zerg lineup taking another hit. i wonder when they're bringing Coca back ^.^
Slayers plans on going full terran mode, who needs the other races
haha yah they're doing that just fine. but you need a variety, especially for team leagues. besides, Coca was a solid code S player. srsly hope they bring him back soon
I went from bronze to platinum in 3 days with 4 hours a day training time
I would never even entertain the thought of going pro, if you are slower than that, and need hours upon hours in joke leagues, please do not ruin your future by considering going pro
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
I don't think that any one going pro (someone that have the skill to do it, not someone who just dream to and is like plat) is doing it to earn a shit ton of money. That would be retarded. We pretty much all know that this is not paid that well. Still, most people who aim for that are doing it to earn a living from what they like the most.
If you don't "love" to go to tournamenet, to play, to train, to compete... if it's a "job" for you, and not a hobby that you are actually so good that you are paid to do it, to entertain people with you skills, then obviously don't go pro.
And it's not that hard to go back to school if you are 18-21 and pro-gaming is not working that well for you.
Funny thing is... Im 18, Ive worked at mcdonalds (I hated it..), Im in plat league, and I train everyday for long hours with hopes of becoming a progamer soon. I guess I should find a gun and shoot myself right?
There is no problem into training for something if you like it, and hoping to become really good later on. But that should just not be your only option.
My point was that for now, since you are only plat, you don't even have to care about pro-gaming salary and shit like that, since you still have a long road to go, the scene will probably have changed thoroughly by the time you are good enough to think about becoming a pro-gamer, finding a team, going to event, etc.
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
I don't think that any one going pro (someone that have the skill to do it, not someone who just dream to and is like plat) is doing it to earn a shit ton of money. That would be retarded. We pretty much all know that this is not paid that well. Still, most people who aim for that are doing it to earn a living from what they like the most.
If you don't "love" to go to tournamenet, to play, to train, to compete... if it's a "job" for you, and not a hobby that you are actually so good that you are paid to do it, to entertain people with you skills, then obviously don't go pro.
And it's not that hard to go back to school if you are 18-21 and pro-gaming is not working that well for you.
Funny thing is... Im 18, Ive worked at mcdonalds (I hated it..), Im in plat league, and I train everyday for long hours with hopes of becoming a progamer soon. I guess I should find a gun and shoot myself right?
There is no problem into training for something if you like it, and hoping to become really good later on. But that should just not be your only option.
My point was that for now, since you are only plat, you don't even have to care about pro-gaming salary and shit like that, since you still have a long road to go, the scene will probably have changed thoroughly by the time you are good enough to think about becoming a pro-gamer, finding a team, going to event, etc.
I plan on going to MLG Raleigh and posting good results.
This is interesting, because on one hand paying a player $20k + while risking that they simply underperform is tough for e-Sports teams at this stage, considering how tight a lot of teams budgets are.
On the other hand, $18k a year for a player like Sleep doesn't seem like a bad deal at all, so maybe I'm more ignorant of what players are actually making than I thought.
At the end of the day teams are already playing to fly their players around and accomadate them while they are there. That's ridiculously expensive when you consider how many tournaments a player like Idra, Ret, Huk, or even MC attends. I really hope every pro doesn't think they deserve $35k a year salary at this stage of the game.
I just hope Dragon and Golden don't have false expectations- SlayerS is an amazing team. Best of luck to both of them =)
On January 16 2012 16:39 Azzur wrote: Many koreans think that there are riches abroad but he is a no-name korean and will be hard pressed to get any decent money. I'm sure a foreign team will pick him up but the amount they will be willing to pay will be far below what he's expecting.
Calling him a no-name korean is stupid. He's in fucking Code S. The top foreigners even have trouble in Code A and Up/Downs, let alone Code S. You forget that often times, (sadly), any of your "no-name" koreans are still miles better than the vast majority of foreign pros. He is a Code-S player. How many of your foreigner heroes have earned that? Don't get me wrong, I want foreigners up there. But there's more to a name than your personality.
Dude, Golden hasn't even Qualified for Code A.........
He doesn't even stay in the SlayerS house anyway....
On January 17 2012 03:40 UndoneJin wrote: This is interesting, because on one hand paying a player $20k + while risking that they simply underperform is tough for e-Sports teams at this stage, considering how tight a lot of teams budgets are.
On the other hand, $18k a year for a player like Sleep doesn't seem like a bad deal at all, so maybe I'm more ignorant of what players are actually making than I thought.
At the end of the day teams are already playing to fly their players around and accomadate them while they are there. That's ridiculously expensive when you consider how many tournaments a player like Idra, Ret, Huk, or even MC attends. I really hope every pro doesn't think they deserve $35k a year salary at this stage of the game.
1.5k is a lot of salary, especially for a korean. I would guess many koreans, some even in Code S, don't make that much. But maybe Sleep didn't know too much or just wanted to try his chances as he heard foreign teams are paying good.
I find it really inappropriate of Xeris to post this WITH naming the players.
There isn't that much money in SC2 at the moment. And like in every (individual) sport, there is a HUGE gap between the earnings of stars and average players. (in cycling Contador/Schleck make 2-3 million, the domestiques make 50-100k)
On January 16 2012 16:39 Azzur wrote: Many koreans think that there are riches abroad but he is a no-name korean and will be hard pressed to get any decent money. I'm sure a foreign team will pick him up but the amount they will be willing to pay will be far below what he's expecting.
Calling him a no-name korean is stupid. He's in fucking Code S. The top foreigners even have trouble in Code A and Up/Downs, let alone Code S. You forget that often times, (sadly), any of your "no-name" koreans are still miles better than the vast majority of foreign pros. He is a Code-S player. How many of your foreigner heroes have earned that? Don't get me wrong, I want foreigners up there. But there's more to a name than your personality.
True but "having a name" can help you get a good salary as i'm sure Geoff "The Personality" Robinson can testify. Getting into code s once several months ago doesn't give you a name or make you a great player now.
On January 17 2012 03:40 UndoneJin wrote: This is interesting, because on one hand paying a player $20k + while risking that they simply underperform is tough for e-Sports teams at this stage, considering how tight a lot of teams budgets are.
On the other hand, $18k a year for a player like Sleep doesn't seem like a bad deal at all, so maybe I'm more ignorant of what players are actually making than I thought.
At the end of the day teams are already playing to fly their players around and accomadate them while they are there. That's ridiculously expensive when you consider how many tournaments a player like Idra, Ret, Huk, or even MC attends. I really hope every pro doesn't think they deserve $35k a year salary at this stage of the game.
1.5k is a lot of salary, especially for a korean. I would guess many koreans, some even in Code S, don't make that much. But maybe Sleep didn't know too much or just wanted to try his chances as he heard foreign teams are paying good.
I find it really inappropriate of Xeris to post this WITH naming the players.
There isn't that much money in SC2 at the moment. And like in every (individual) sport, there is a HUGE gap between the earnings of stars and average players. (in cycling Contador/Schleck make 2-3 million, the domestiques make 50-100k)
To be fair, Xeris has started from the beginning that those were just guesses towards the salaries of other players. For example, at lot of people had already speculated that HuK was in the 6 figures for his salary. At the same time, a lot of the other estimates seemed reasonable, especially when you factor in that fact that a lot of Korean teams are having problems finding sponsorship.
I believe both players are looking for more support to further progress their skills, and it's kind of true that foreign teams are more accomodating in that sense.
For all Dragon fans who are tweeting him - Dragon has confirmed that he will continue streaming, on TwitchTV. Hope this helps.
On January 17 2012 04:08 dearyuna wrote: I believe both players are looking for more support to further progress their skills, and it's kind of true that American teams are more accomodating in that sense.
For all Dragon fans who are tweeting him - Dragon has confirmed that he will continue streaming, on TwitchTV. Hope this helps.
Dragon is not and will not ever be a competitive player.
On January 17 2012 04:08 dearyuna wrote: I believe both players are looking for more support to further progress their skills, and it's kind of true that American teams are more accomodating in that sense.
For all Dragon fans who are tweeting him - Dragon has confirmed that he will continue streaming, on TwitchTV. Hope this helps.
Dragon is not and will not ever be a competitive player.
Just because he said that he was focusing on non-competitive play for now does not mean he won't return to the scene. We'll see what happens.
On January 17 2012 04:08 dearyuna wrote: I believe both players are looking for more support to further progress their skills, and it's kind of true that American teams are more accomodating in that sense.
For all Dragon fans who are tweeting him - Dragon has confirmed that he will continue streaming, on TwitchTV. Hope this helps.
On January 17 2012 04:08 dearyuna wrote: I believe both players are looking for more support to further progress their skills, and it's kind of true that American teams are more accomodating in that sense.
For all Dragon fans who are tweeting him - Dragon has confirmed that he will continue streaming, on TwitchTV. Hope this helps.
Dragon is not and will not ever be a competitive player.
Just because he said that he was focusing on non-competitive play for now does not mean he won't return to the scene. We'll see what happens.
I suggest you read up on the Dragon scandal before saying that.
On January 17 2012 04:08 dearyuna wrote: I believe both players are looking for more support to further progress their skills, and it's kind of true that American teams are more accomodating in that sense.
For all Dragon fans who are tweeting him - Dragon has confirmed that he will continue streaming, on TwitchTV. Hope this helps.
*Foreign not American...
Edited, are you happy now?
And Curry, would you stay in a team that doesn't support you, regardless of their reputation?
And I did read the Dragon scandal. Although he has stated in the past that he would not compete, he has made showings since then. All I'm trying to say is that you never know. If you don't support him, that's fine.
Starcraft 2 teams, tournaments and sponsors should shift focus away from individual players and put the focus into the teams with team play. It makes zero sense to invest thousands of dollars into individuals that can leave the team after their contract is up, can say stupid things like "joke tournament" live in front of thousands of viewers, can run a stream drunk while fondling a pornstar, can have zero results or potential of winning and the list can go on and on. Sure people want to connect to players they enjoy watching, but it makes no sense for the business model to accept the risk and put the egg in one basket with these guys. They are young and most of them are stupid so why try to create "heros" when you can create long term brands that actually pay off the investment over the long term?
Look at any major sporting organization and you will find yes there is a desire to hire top talent, but it is not the primary goal of the business. The primary goal of the business is to become sustainable and create a brand that has value. If you link all your brand's value to one or two players there is in fact very little value to your organization as soon as those one or two players leave.
The type of model where there are 'hero" players and "personality" players also lessens the competition and degrades the quality of the product that major tournaments deliver to the consumers. The MLG, IPL, NASL etc all had so many low quality players seeded into the upper bracket, we know them to be low quality players that had no chance but they were there playing anyway. Why? Does the NFL let just anyone one who can catch a ball onto the field? The NFL knows it would be suicide for the league to dress any players but the best.
Going to team play would also open doors to more color commentating about the strategies used by the teams: which player are they going to pick? this is there strongest TvZ specialist this was a good choice... an all kill... etc, it would add a dimension to the game and tournaments that isn't there now. Also, right now we get to watch tournaments where the top players might be jet lagged, might be unpracticed, might not be there, might get all-in'd vs a weak oppenent in an early round. Team play would even out the results and keep people interested if their "hero" doesn't make a showing.
Create fans of the teams, not fans of the players.
On January 17 2012 04:23 Rabbet wrote: I'll say it again.
Starcraft 2 teams, tournaments and sponsors should shift focus away from individual players and put the focus into the teams with team play. It makes zero sense to invest thousands of dollars into individuals that can leave the team after their contract is up, can say stupid things like "joke tournament" live in front of thousands of viewers, can run a stream drunk while fondling a pornstar, can have zero results or potential of winning and the list can go on and on. Sure people want to connect to players they enjoy watching, but it makes no sense for the business model to accept the risk and put the egg in one basket with these guys. They are young and most of them are stupid so why try to create "heros" when you can create long term brands that actually pay off the investment over the long term?
Look at any major sporting organization and you will find yes there is a desire to hire top talent, but it is not the primary goal of the business. The primary goal of the business is to become sustainable and create a brand that has value. If you link all your brand's value to one or two players there is in fact very little value to your organization as soon as those one or two players leave.
The type of model where there are 'hero" players and "personality" players also lessens the competition and degrades the quality of the product that major tournaments deliver to the consumers. The MLG, IPL, NASL etc all had so many low quality players seeded into the upper bracket, we know them to be low quality players that had no chance but they were there playing anyway. Why? Does the NFL let just anyone one who can catch a ball onto the field? The NFL knows it would be suicide for the league to dress any players but the best.
Going to team play would also open doors to more color commentating about the strategies used by the teams: which player are they going to pick? this is there strongest TvZ specialist this was a good choice... an all kill... etc, it would add a dimension to the game and tournaments that isn't there now. Also, right now we get to watch tournaments where the top players might be jet lagged, might be unpracticed, might not be there, might get all-in'd vs a weak oppenent in an early round. Team play would even out the results and keep people interested if their "hero" doesn't make a showing.
Create fans of the teams, not fans of the players.
This is both true and untrue at the same time. Every professional team has its "heroes", its flagship players (the Payton Manning, the Tom Brady), but it also sells merchandise on a team level.
Frankly, I enjoyed watching the IPL Team Arena even more than any particular tournament this year. Flagship players got to show their worth, and lesser-known players were able to shine as well.
If teams could stabilize rosters and have a reliable brand/dynasty to grow, they'd be far more lucrative and successful in the long term.
To this end, look at Team Liquid. Look at its brand! Team Liquid hosts an amazingly active community site, and participates heavily in the progaming scene. Because of this brand, I read Zenio's bio despite knowing nothing about the player previously. Now, I'd consider myself a Zenio fan. I probably wouldn't have given many fucks if Zenio had signed with, i don't know, StarTale. I have a TL shirt, but I definitely don't own any Quantic memorabilia (although, hold on, googling EG shirts).
I absolutely agree with growing and establishing a team as a brand, but every team has flagship players, who win and command, and they are more valuable. I'm sure that TL pays more to HerO and Puma than to HayprO (sorry haypro <3).
On January 17 2012 04:08 dearyuna wrote: I believe both players are looking for more support to further progress their skills, and it's kind of true that American teams are more accomodating in that sense.
For all Dragon fans who are tweeting him - Dragon has confirmed that he will continue streaming, on TwitchTV. Hope this helps.
Dragon is not and will not ever be a competitive player.
Just because he said that he was focusing on non-competitive play for now does not mean he won't return to the scene. We'll see what happens.
I suggest you read up on the Dragon scandal before saying that.
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:15 Zzoram wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:13 Seraphone wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:10 rUiNati0n wrote:
On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote: So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day.
I think many Players, though they might be grateful to be making a living doing something they love, would disagree on their situations being called great
I don't know how anyone can not consider earning $20,000 a year or more from playing Starcraft to be a great situation.
Because these people are screwing up their education and the opportunity cost of playing SC2 professionally is very high. These guys would almost certainly make a lot more money if they went to university and then got a normal job.
When these guys finish SC2, many of them will not even have a high school diploma, and most won't have a university degree either, so it will be hard to get a good paying normal job after SC2.
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros.........
Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
Or you know, hopes of supporting a family one day... Kinda hard to do on 20k/yr, not impossible though, but I imagine its kinda hard.
i know! the thougth of your wife actually supporting the family to is astonishing!!
Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
On January 17 2012 04:23 Rabbet wrote: I'll say it again.
Starcraft 2 teams, tournaments and sponsors should shift focus away from individual players and put the focus into the teams with team play. It makes zero sense to invest thousands of dollars into individuals that can leave the team after their contract is up, can say stupid things like "joke tournament" live in front of thousands of viewers, can run a stream drunk while fondling a pornstar, can have zero results or potential of winning and the list can go on and on. Sure people want to connect to players they enjoy watching, but it makes no sense for the business model to accept the risk and put the egg in one basket with these guys. They are young and most of them are stupid so why try to create "heros" when you can create long term brands that actually pay off the investment over the long term?
Look at any major sporting organization and you will find yes there is a desire to hire top talent, but it is not the primary goal of the business. The primary goal of the business is to become sustainable and create a brand that has value. If you link all your brand's value to one or two players there is in fact very little value to your organization as soon as those one or two players leave.
The type of model where there are 'hero" players and "personality" players also lessens the competition and degrades the quality of the product that major tournaments deliver to the consumers. The MLG, IPL, NASL etc all had so many low quality players seeded into the upper bracket, we know them to be low quality players that had no chance but they were there playing anyway. Why? Does the NFL let just anyone one who can catch a ball onto the field? The NFL knows it would be suicide for the league to dress any players but the best.
Going to team play would also open doors to more color commentating about the strategies used by the teams: which player are they going to pick? this is there strongest TvZ specialist this was a good choice... an all kill... etc, it would add a dimension to the game and tournaments that isn't there now. Also, right now we get to watch tournaments where the top players might be jet lagged, might be unpracticed, might not be there, might get all-in'd vs a weak oppenent in an early round. Team play would even out the results and keep people interested if their "hero" doesn't make a showing.
Create fans of the teams, not fans of the players.
This is both true and untrue at the same time. Every professional team has its "heroes", its flagship players (the Payton Manning, the Tom Brady), but it also sells merchandise on a team level.
Frankly, I enjoyed watching the IPL Team Arena even more than any particular tournament this year. Flagship players got to show their worth, and lesser-known players were able to shine as well.
If teams could stabilize rosters and have a reliable brand/dynasty to grow, they'd be far more lucrative and successful in the long term.
To this end, look at Team Liquid. Look at its brand! Team Liquid hosts an amazingly active community site, and participates heavily in the progaming scene. Because of this brand, I read Zenio's bio despite knowing nothing about the player previously. Now, I'd consider myself a Zenio fan. I probably wouldn't have given many fucks if Zenio had signed with, i don't know, StarTale. I have a TL shirt, but I definitely don't own any Quantic memorabilia (although, hold on, googling EG shirts).
I absolutely agree with growing and establishing a team as a brand, but every team has flagship players, who win and command, and they are more valuable. I'm sure that TL pays more to HerO and Puma than to HayprO (sorry haypro <3).
IPL Team Arena kicks ass IMO.
True they have hero players, but those players also eat away at the salary pool the teams have to play with thus becoming less desirable. The NFL has created a very competitive league by focusing less on stars and more on having well rounded rosters. Football is unique in that there is actually a real opportunity to create a star quarterback and have huge success or failure depending on circumstances. Other sports such as hockey depend greatly on a well rounded roster and when Sydney Crosby was injured(still is?) the whole team didn't collapse because Sydney Crosby is not the single cornerstone of the organization.
As far as Team Liquid goes, I agree their brand is huge but it is being nibbled away piece at a time by lack luster performances of the players(sans the Koreans). Team Liquid is able to sustain losses to the quality of its roster because it also hosts the largest Starcraft community on the internet and that brings in add revenue. If Team Liquid was just a pro team without the website without huge traffic it would be struggling to survive and maintain sponsorship. Also its a joke they say they won't ever cut a player because they lack results. If esports is going to be serious in the future it cannot be built upon the foundation of team owners hiring their buddies to play in competition. Put 5(different) guys up against Mous in a team challenge and we will see who should be nominated/named team of the year...
On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote: Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
you should see half the threads TT1 posts in get huge amounts of flaming towards him. Most of the community has forgiven him, but a lot of people just want to hate, he usally gets at least 5-6 people every thread flaming him. they often get warned or banned.
On January 16 2012 16:39 Azzur wrote: Many koreans think that there are riches abroad but he is a no-name korean and will be hard pressed to get any decent money. I'm sure a foreign team will pick him up but the amount they will be willing to pay will be far below what he's expecting.
Calling him a no-name korean is stupid. He's in fucking Code S. The top foreigners even have trouble in Code A and Up/Downs, let alone Code S. You forget that often times, (sadly), any of your "no-name" koreans are still miles better than the vast majority of foreign pros. He is a Code-S player. How many of your foreigner heroes have earned that? Don't get me wrong, I want foreigners up there. But there's more to a name than your personality.
Golden is in Code B o_O
Fuck you're right. I confused him with Puzzle. Who's a dipshit? This guy.
Although, he did make it to Code A, and the same idea stands, just to a lesser extent.
On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote: Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
no one cares about my background? are u fucking serious? LOL
On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote: [quote] You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind.
Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc).
[quote] Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming.
Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc..
I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT.
Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late.
I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp.
Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard.
Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing.
TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary.
What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love.
Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv.
Or you know, hopes of supporting a family one day... Kinda hard to do on 20k/yr, not impossible though, but I imagine its kinda hard.
Depends where you live. There's tons of kids in this thread who really don't know what the real world is like. Making 20k a year at 18-21 years old is extremely good in the UK and I imagine most of Europe nevermind how good it is in a country like Poland or Ukraine. Nevermind that while you earn 20k a year you're always only one good tournament a way from increasing that massively in only a weekend of play.
Nor do any players live in the world of 1984 which a lot of people here seem to think where you're bound for life to the career you pick at 16.
Pro gamers have their entire lives before them, nothing wrong at all in taking a few years out to get paid more than their friends for playing games and travelling the world.
They're getting a great deal.
question: is making 20k a year good in the uk because it is 20k pounds? or is making 20k $ a year good as well?
Because I assume that the numbers that have been thrown around all have an (invisible) dollar sign behind them.
It depends where you live. If you live in London then $20k is about minimum wage. $20k goes a lot further in anywhere other than London, especially in smaller citys.
£20k is okay in London and not bad at all outside of London.
Keep in mind that your standard graduate job in the UK starts at about £14-20k a year.
Average college grad in the US makes over $40k a year starting. Engineers as much as $70k+
Graduate job as in banks, insurance companys, marketing companys etc.. just take on graduates of any serious degree to different kind of office work.
If you graduate in a really specific field like Medicine, Law, Accountancy, Nursing etc.. it obviously has it's own pay scales.
The comparison doesn't really work so well for Europe to US because in the US the rich make a lot more and the poor make a lot less. There's a lot less wealth inequality in Europe.
This is complete crap btw. The middle class in US might be getting smaller but it is still a lot better than UK
On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote: Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
no one cares about my background? are u fucking serious? LOL
On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote: Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
no one cares about my background? are u fucking serious? LOL
Lol people comparing pro salaries, or for that matter any esport salaries to minimum wage. Even though contract numbers, monthly salaries, etc. have been stated at times in conversations online, even while they're under NDA, it should come as no surprise anymore. These numbers have been floated around for almost 2 years now. It's private information that isn't THAT private anymore. Many full time players don't make salary, the ones that do largely make 400-500 or less, even big name teams often can't offer salaries because their budget isn't as high as people would like to see in this 'esports industry'. They can offer flight and accommodations to big events and that's it.
The number of players that make over 500 a month is really just a handful, surely less than like...50 foreigner SC2 players make more than 500 a month, and that's a pretty generous estimate I would say.
Asking for 1500 for a second level Korean player is NOT worth its value. Just imagine paying them, even the more standard 500 a month, and then 1.5-2k worth of accommodations per foreigner event you want to send them to. Lets say you send a Golden to MLG, on top of the 6k a year you're spending, you'd like to send him to 12k worth of MLG's, well there's your minimum wage of 18k a year working full time 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year.
Now what happens when some Korean player goes to MLG. At best he'll make it out of open bracket and get a decent run that'll plant him...maybe top 8ish, if he's lucky. But to get the value out of the ENORMOUS investment, he would have to win or place top 2/3. Ideally multiple times. I don't know what the following players make, but I would say that Ret and TLO are a significantly more marketable investment than Hero or Zenio, even given results, same with Huk and Idra over Puma or JYP. Maybe their salaries justify that, maybe not.
If these Korean players think "oh its no problem that I can leave the team house, foreign teams will want me so badly, I mean they signed players I'm better than like Check, that means they'll want to come to me and pay me lots of money to go to big money foreign events which are easier than GSL". Yet through it all you can't market a player like Golden, he doesn't have a huge fan base nor audience.
Dragon is very entertaining to watch - might be the most entertaining stream I can think of. I'm glad he is continuing to stream but I wonder what his real life career is (it's mentioned that he left Slayers to focus on his job).
As far as making money or having a career vs being a progamer - I think it's about what you save and not what you earn and how hard you work for what you want in a focused manner. I know a guy with 2 very marketable degrees and he is living out of his car and I know another guy who only completed highschool but owns his own home and works in a high paying technical position. There are many paths to making money and not all of them need a college degree. You are a failure or a success by how you define your goals and not what others think you should do. Look at Steve Jobs and Bill Gates - neither finished college and both marched to the beat of their own drums - and they became some of the wealthiest men on earth.
I will end with a quote from Teddy Roosevelt:
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
Teams need to realize what an investment is, you don't invest in results unless the results get noticed, you invest in how you market the players. Very few teams market their team or their players well at all. EG is amazing at it, they are the pinnacle of it, that is why they have a lot of heavy hitting sponsors. When you look at the smaller teams, the Viles, itsgosus, iS's. Surely those teams salary at least a few of their players (for the most part, not good investments). But what are they doing towards pushing those players into public spotlights so that they can pay off dividends to where the money is coming from, from the sponsors that are giving them these marketing dollars.
Teams need to improve their PR, whether that means paying a guy who will inevitably live in the shadows that raises up the brand recognition and name recognition of your team and players, its a more worthy investment, one that'll pay more for every player and team that he can raise up. Smaller teams do an awful job of getting PR and publicity work done. If you're going to pay 500 a month to a player that sits there quietly producing halfway decent results well what happens when you pay only 3 players instead of 5 players that salary, and you spend just 200 a month on a PR guy. Guess what, that one guy makes those 3 players worth their 500 a month, and you're still cutting 800/month worth of bad investing. I don't mean to call out small teams individually but they really need to step their games up. If you are worth the marketing dollars that you're getting in any ways from your sponsors, or even if you're paying these salaries out of pocket, you need to improve your teams name recognition then, over your players. And get your players to raise the sponsors names, or the team names.
"I'd like to thank my team evil geniuses and their sponsors, intel steelseries kingston hyperx monster energy beyond gaming inwin blahblah"
Guess what guys, hundreds of thousands of ears have heard those shoutouts, thousands of you will have memorized those names, and when you see a monster energy at a 7-11 you think "oh those are the guys that sponsor EG". EVEN IF you don't buy that product, you made the association.
What if I told you that Vile was sponsored by Razer, and that ItsGosu is sponsored by Steelseries. Do you ever associate those companies with them? No, you think Razer sponsors Boxer and Slayers and Teamliquid, Steelseries sponsors EG.
PR is more valuable than keeping the players. If your player is asking for 500 a month well tell them if another team is paying them that, then they can go to that team, because inevitably if a team isn't making that 500/month worth it, that team will die out, and that player will be on the market again in the future.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Wow those are pretty high numbers. 0_o
Anyone that pays $3k for SangHo is out of their minds.
lol i hope that 3k goes to 100 years and produce good results lol
afaik the team gets no cut of prize money. exposure is what attracts sponsors. since everything esports is based on sponsorships, and noone would talk about what kind of money really is behind all this, it's impossible to judge what a player has to do to generate positive ROI for the team. it's even harder to guess the return for the sponsors. I doubt winning an mlg, or even a gsl, is enough to justify a 20k salary though.
On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote: Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
Considering his "promise to change" was to never play competitively again, I think people would care.
On January 17 2012 00:09 FallDownMarigold wrote: Lol Xeris once again with the unprofessional behavior... Someone needs to sit down with him and discuss PR issues, including disclosing financial info and whatnot. I cringed when I read some of those posts on the first couple of pages. It's especially not okay to generalize all Koreans based on what, say, Sangho wanted/did. According to Desrow, Golden hardly wants anything, just travel expenses -- that's not 3k/month
What is unprofessional about anything he said in this thread? He hasn't disclosed any financial info about anyone, he merely stated what some players asked for while he was with fnatic... maybe you should think for yourself a bit before blindly agreeing with some people just because they happen to have "administrator" next to their name...
1) Blanket statement about koreans 2) Disclosure about activity w/ former team
Maybe you should consider that I did think about it and that i happen to agree with kennigit. What's wrong with him being an admin? That's not a rational argument
1) It was a generalized statement about that MOST Koreans asks for way too much and why they are unsigned. Nowhere did he say all Koreans asks for those amounts.
2) Disclosure about activity? really? He was scouting for fnatic and all he said was that he looked into those players to possibly sign them. You're actually trying to call him out on admitting to doing his job?
wait, so you think 1.5k and 3k a month is alot?
that's 18k and 36k a year respectively... That is a piss poor amount, especially for a "sport" industry where players die out after ~10 years of activity
If those amount are too much for sc2 pros, then sc2 won't ever be a big spectator sport
It doesn't matter what you; or anyone else considers "alot". What matters is what the community can support. What do you honestly think organizations get from sponsors? Golden doubloons? That is some organizations entire monthly budget...if you're lucky..and most players asking for that much are simply not worth it.
On January 16 2012 22:53 desRow wrote: Golden only wants travel expenses shouldnt be too hard for him to find a team
Travel expenses....from Korea. Not exactly a drop in a bucket.
compared to 1500$ that sleep was asking or 3000$/mo that killer is asking its nothing being at offline events > dumping money for a salary from a sponsor's POV imho
On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote: Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
Considering his "promise to change" was to never play competitively again, I think people would care.
Well considering he's already rescinded his statement, I think you should get over it. What's the point of arguing whether or not people will care. Maybe you won't care but there are plently of people who will. I don't understand why people bother to hold a grudge over one mistake. If he proves his worth by competing fairly, I think that should more than compensate for it.
edit Like you said, Dragon stated he wasn't going to return to professional gaming, so why are you getting so worked up for. :\
On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote: Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
Considering his "promise to change" was to never play competitively again, I think people would care.
Quit being such a dick and give the man a chance. Also, he was "accused" of cheating, but it was never proven to be true. To be honest, if it would get the world off of my back... I wouldve probably admitted to doing something that I know I didnt do as well if I didnt feel like arguing with anyone seeing as nobody believed me anyway.
On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote: Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
no one cares about my background? are u fucking serious? LOL
To be honest, if it would get the world off of my back... I wouldve probably admitted to doing something that I know I didnt do as well if I didnt feel like arguing with anyone seeing as nobody believed me anyway.
The suspect has admitted to his crimes
"Oh, he's innocent. I'm sure he just admitted to something he didn't do just to get those annoying police get off his back"
you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power.
Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is.....
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
Just to clear things up, neither of these players lived in house. From my sources Slayers runs a program somewhat like this:
- New players are recruited based on their skill and potential. - Most new players are given a spot in the Slayers house for a month or a few (LotS). - Based on their play, rate of improvement, etc... they either become permanent or are out of the house. - New talent is brought in to replace the gaps in residency.
If I remember correctly, Golden got the boot from the team house, and Dragon never actually was in the team house. It is also important to note both these players were the first few on the Slayers roster: Dragon (Mio) was picked up after WeRRa disbanded on recommendation from Cella, and Golden shortly after leaving fOu. Basically both of them weren't destined for residence in the team house and by extension, probably not getting paid travel at any point.
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Holy hell that is poor form. If I was Sleep or Sangho, I would be seriously pissed right now.
On January 17 2012 09:03 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote: Just to clear things up, neither of these players lived in house. From my sources Slayers runs a program somewhat like this:
- New players are recruited based on their skill and potential. - Most new players are given a spot in the Slayers house for a month or a few (LotS). - Based on their play, rate of improvement, etc... they either become permanent or are out of the house. - New talent is brought in to replace the gaps in residency.
If I remember correctly, Golden got the boot from the team house, and Dragon never actually was in the team house. It is also important to note both these players were the first few on the Slayers roster: Dragon (Mio) was picked up after WeRRa disbanded on recommendation from Cella, and Golden shortly after leaving fOu. Basically both of them weren't destined for residence in the team house and by extension, probably not getting paid travel at any point.
Their A team live in the team house and the B team live outside.
Also, I believe the order of the event was: Mio gets kicked from WeRRa -> A few weeks later GundamWeRRa scandal occurs -> WeRRa disbands after a few days of utter chaos.
On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote: Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
no one cares about my background? are u fucking serious? LOL
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: you may think it's smart to release information information about player salary requests. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for their market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their pricing. Those types of comments harm players bargaining power.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy.
Sure, I see your reasoning. But if no other teams than your team also do not consider offering Sleep higher than this bottom line, than Sleep's bottom line is actually miscalculated. On the other hand, if his bottom line is lower than it should be, teams would start out-bidding each other, therefore setting the effective price of the player.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
There's a very big difference in how salary discussions are treated between Western and Asian culture. IIRC in Korea and other Asian cultures it's not considered taboo at all to discuss salary stuff publicly. It's considered a personal questions in the West but it's debatable as to whether that is a benefit to the employee or employer.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
I don't see how the dynamic is different here to any other professional environment. Imagine you were a highly qualified worker being approached by a leading company. You go through rounds of negotiation over salary, but don't reach an agreement. One of the people who interviewed you behind closed doors then goes and makes your requested salary public. It would be an enormous faux pas. Said interviewer would likely have difficulty finding a future employer.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy.
Sure, I see your reasoning. But if no other teams than your team also do not consider offering Sleep higher than this bottom line, than Sleep's bottom line is actually miscalculated. On the other hand, if his bottom line is lower than it should be, teams would start out-bidding each other, therefore setting the effective price of the player.
I agree, the evaluation isn't based purely on where Sleep's bottom line is - it's also based on if he brings that level of value to the team, sponsors etc, and it varies quite a bit between teams. I still think its very unprofessional, if players wanted their salaries public i think they would be discussing them - there are no NDA's (afaik) on them, and a lot of them don't want it discussed.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy.
I don't think you know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is based on Xeris' statement.
Xeris said that when they approcahed Sleep, he was asking for something in a range. Not when they were close to making a deal, not when they bargained him down to his bottom line, but what he asked for when approached. Presumably the same range he would be asking for from whatever team approached him. Based on this statement, you know exactly roughly what range of salary Sleep might ask for if you approached him. That's hardly a deal breaker, and I don't see why Sleep or anyone else would be furious about this being public.
No one said Sleep's bottom line was X, we found X after neogtiating with him, don't offer him any more since he will accept X. I'd understand why people would be furious over a statement like that. But you seem to be being a bit hyperbolic by suggesting Xeris' statement ruined any bargaining position Sleep may have. Unless he's looking for radically different salaries from different team who approach him, I don't see how you could think Xeris' statement was a problem.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
Makes 100% sense. Think of when you go to buy a car. You don't go say "I'll buy that car at sticker price" because you know you can go lower than that and get a better deal. Imagine if you knew exactly how low the dealer was going to go before he said no, you'd just skip right to that number right? Same logic goes with players.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy.
Sure, I see your reasoning. But if no other teams than your team also do not consider offering Sleep higher than this bottom line, than Sleep's bottom line is actually miscalculated. On the other hand, if his bottom line is lower than it should be, teams would start out-bidding each other, therefore setting the effective price of the player.
I agree, the evaluation isn't based purely on where Sleep's bottom line is - it's also based on if he brings that level of value to the team, sponsors etc, and it varies quite a bit between teams. I still think its very unprofessional, if players wanted their salaries public i think they would be discussing them - there are no NDA's (afaik) on them, and a lot of them don't want it discussed.
In the West yes. Not so much there. That and the sponsors are using those NDAs against the players especially when it comes to their options.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy.
I don't think you know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is based on Xeris' statement.
Xeris said that when they approcahed Sleep, he was asking for something in a range. Not when they were close to making a deal, not when they bargained him down to his bottom line, but what he asked for when approached. Presumably the same range he would be asking for from whatever team approached him. Based on this statement, you know exactly roughly what range of salary Sleep might ask for if you approached him. That's hardly a deal breaker, and I don't see why Sleep or anyone else would be furious about this being public.
No one said Sleep's bottom line was X, we found X after neogtiating with him, don't offer him any more since he will accept X. I'd understand why people would be furious over a statement like that. But you seem to be being a bit hyperbolic by suggesting Xeris' statement ruined any bargaining position Sleep may have. Unless he's looking for radically different salaries from different team who approach him, I don't see how you could think Xeris' statement was a problem.
Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power.
Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is.....
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
Dude, I 100% disagree with you. All the information I posted tells you is:
a) Sleep wants 1k b) Fnatic didn't want to pay 1k for him
First off - the fact that Sleep didn't join a team most likely suggests nobody offered him what he was looking for. Which means that his "bottom" line might not even be a bottom line and that he could potentially sign for something lower if he likes the offer. There's 209420943290 different factors a team weighs when choosing who to sign and how much to pay him. I'm 100% sure Fnatic can afford to get Sleep if they wanted, but there a bunch of reasons why not (you'll find out why tomorrow, then maybe rethink this post Kennigit).
For example, a team might say, "for 1k I want more of a marketable personality and I don't think Sleep fits that mold," so they don't offer him 1k, despite being able to afford it.
I really don't get why you're so torn up about this... Again, initially the only reason I mentioned it is because I was using it as a reference to say that Koreans seem to generally have unrealistic salary expectations.
*EDIT*
I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
If you think this is true, then you're putting words in my mouth. I never said Fnatic can't afford Sleep, I said Fnatic didn't want to pay 1k... those 2 are very different, you should know that Kennigit
On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote: Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position.
But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make.
Because when sleep says to Fnatic, "this is the rate im looking for" he doesn't expect it to be public. The same when i go to a sponsor for TSL and give them a number, i don't expect them to write a blog saying "well kennigit asked me for X but i didn't see the value in it"....I may have been able to get that amount from a competitor but now it's public that another company decided it wasn't worth it - that absolutely has an impact on their evaluation (because they know i cant bid them against each other). When EG signs a sponsor they dont release a statement saying "we were looking for $X and we managed to find a deal with Y".
If Quantic wants to get Sleep tomorrow, they now know that (for whatever reasons) Sleep wasn't worth 1500 to Fnatic. They are announcing a new player so the situation at best is the same (depending when that discussion took place, because their budget is similar). I may not know what other teams are making bids on Sleep, but i know past a certain point it's very likely not to be fnatic. Thats bad.
On January 17 2012 09:43 Kennigit wrote: Because when sleep says to Fnatic, "this is the rate im looking for" he doesn't expect it to be public. The same when i go to a sponsor for TSL and give them a number, i don't expect them to write a blog saying "well kennigit asked me for X but i didn't see the value in it"....When EG signs a sponsor they dont release a statement saying "we were looking for $X and we managed to find a deal with Y".
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
There's a very big difference in how salary discussions are treated between Western and Asian culture. IIRC in Korea and other Asian cultures it's not considered taboo at all to discuss salary stuff publicly. It's considered a personal questions in the West but it's debatable as to whether that is a benefit to the employee or employer.
It's not to say someone should go by a double standard.
On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote: Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position.
But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make.
It doesnt shed any light about the finances of the team actually... it doesn't do anything. The only thing you can glean about Fnatic's finances would be a really grossly misunderstood reading of my post, and basically just be a random opinion, because I didn't post any factual data about Fnatic finances.
I said, Sleep asked for $X. I didn't say, "Fnatic can't afford $X" , etc
On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote: Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position.
But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make.
It doesnt shed any light about the finances of the team actually... it doesn't do anything. The only thing you can glean about Fnatic's finances would be a really grossly misunderstood reading of my post, and basically just be a random opinion, because I didn't post any factual data about Fnatic finances.
I said, Sleep asked for $X. I didn't say, "Fnatic can't afford $X" , etc
It doesn't let you conclude things about Fnatic's finances, but it certainly provides a data point. It's just really bad form imo.
On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote: Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position.
But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make.
It doesnt shed any light about the finances of the team actually... it doesn't do anything. The only thing you can glean about Fnatic's finances would be a really grossly misunderstood reading of my post, and basically just be a random opinion, because I didn't post any factual data about Fnatic finances.
I said, Sleep asked for $X. I didn't say, "Fnatic can't afford $X" , etc
It doesn't let you conclude anything, but it certainly provides a data point.
Actually it doesn't, all it says is that at that point in time Fnatic didn't think those players were worth that kind of money. If you glean anything at all from that it is all speculation going on in your head with no reference to reality.
On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote: Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position.
But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make.
It doesnt shed any light about the finances of the team actually... it doesn't do anything. The only thing you can glean about Fnatic's finances would be a really grossly misunderstood reading of my post, and basically just be a random opinion, because I didn't post any factual data about Fnatic finances.
I said, Sleep asked for $X. I didn't say, "Fnatic can't afford $X" , etc
It doesn't let you conclude anything, but it certainly provides a data point.
You're right, it gives you a data point, but what does that really do? I don't really understand how that influences your behavior at all. For example. I am a team owner now, I see "Sleep wants $X," but personally I can't afford that value. I look and say, "sleep has been looking for a team for 3-4 months, he must not get any offers of $X." So I'd think to myself, "well maybe hes realized his valuation is too high, I'm going to offer him $(X-Y) now"
Knowing that data point wouldn't influence my behavior at all. And if you want to make random conjectures like "ok so Fnatic didnt sign him at $X so it means they cant afford $X," and base your decision making on that then that's just a really bad way to make decisions, dunno what to say
Become a professional poker player, then everyone will feel a right to know how much you make... SC2 pros are taking it easy.
I disagree with Kennigit, not paying that much to a second string korean isn't about fnatic strategy, but mere common sense. At most it's an indiscretion towards the players, but that's between them and Xeris.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
I dont see what the big deal is. If the players were asking for that much then that means that they would want for every team to know that. Thats how much they want to get picked up for after all. I dont know if they might be angered by it becoming public, but honestly its just better for the whole community and esports in general once all the salaries are known.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
It would depend if Sleep and Sangho thought that the information disclosed was to be kept confidential.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
There's a very big difference in how salary discussions are treated between Western and Asian culture. IIRC in Korea and other Asian cultures it's not considered taboo at all to discuss salary stuff publicly. It's considered a personal questions in the West but it's debatable as to whether that is a benefit to the employee or employer.
If you personally disagree with my stating those figures, I totally understand. I have a lot of respect for you, so I edited my original and I won't post that kind of information again, but I disagree with your view.
There are clearly people who think that this isn't a huge deal, etc... it's just two different viewpoints.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
It would depend on whether Sleep and SangHo feel like it's something they should be angry about, which we won't ever really know, tbh.
Getting angry and defensive on someone else's behalf when that person may not even care that much is just a waste of time and energy.
On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote: Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position.
But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make.
It doesnt shed any light about the finances of the team actually... it doesn't do anything. The only thing you can glean about Fnatic's finances would be a really grossly misunderstood reading of my post, and basically just be a random opinion, because I didn't post any factual data about Fnatic finances.
I said, Sleep asked for $X. I didn't say, "Fnatic can't afford $X" , etc
It doesn't let you conclude anything, but it certainly provides a data point.
Actually it doesn't, all it says is that at that point in time Fnatic didn't think those players were worth that kind of money. If you glean anything at all from that it is all speculation going on in your head with no reference to reality.
I wrote a massive reply but the tl;dr without causing more drama is that theres only a couple points that are public (via Xeris). You can't draw conclusions from them directly and it would be stupid to do so. The issue is that in the industry, those aren't necessarily the only points that are public. You have no idea what data points Teams have on prior bidding wars in the last 6-8 months, leaks, sponsor wars. All of that stuff. I started to write examples, but then i'd actually get in trouble so lets just leave it.
On January 17 2012 09:53 Xeris wrote: If you personally disagree with my stating those figures, I totally understand. I have a lot of respect for you, so I edited my original and I won't post that kind of information again, but I disagree with your view.
There are clearly people who think that this isn't a huge deal, etc... it's just two different viewpoints.
Ask the people who it will affect if they think it isn't a huge deal, don't judge by yourself
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
It's been clearly stated that most players/teams/etc already know what people are asking for and how much people make. The most of TL isn't in a position to do anything with this information other than say, "wow thats kinda neat knowing a bit of insight into this world that I am looking at from the outside,"
It really doesn't affect anyone's decision making process at a significant or meaningful stage.
I agree, from some point of view, what I did was incorrect -- which is why I edited my post and won't be doing so again... but from another perspective, as R1CH stated, and even FXOBoss said earlier, discussing these things publicly is commonplace and not bad at all.
Just depends on your pov. Jumping all over me isn't the right way to go. I appreciate Kennigits responses because he's trying to explain his point of view and discuss this rationally.
On January 17 2012 09:53 Xeris wrote: If you personally disagree with my stating those figures, I totally understand. I have a lot of respect for you, so I edited my original and I won't post that kind of information again, but I disagree with your view.
There are clearly people who think that this isn't a huge deal, etc... it's just two different viewpoints.
Listen, in all honesty i shouldn't be upset at all (and i'm not, im just trying to articulate why i think its bad for teams and players alike). I should keep my mouth shut and write it down for future reference because that sort of stuff helps in competition. My post above kind of beat around the point, but it just provides an extra piece of information to teams that is really valuable. Maybe Fnatic CEO or sleep come into the thread and say they dont care, but i'd be surprised.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
It would depend if Sleep and Sangho thought that the information disclosed was to be kept confidential.
The mere fact that we haven't heard any talks about other salaries is representation that they want it confidential.
Everyone knows that the straw and cup cost McDonalds more than the syrup and water to make the soda and that combined they don't cost more the 2.5 cents....but people still pay $1.50 for it.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
It's been clearly stated that most players/teams/etc already know what people are asking for and how much people make. The most of TL isn't in a position to do anything with this information other than say, "wow thats kinda neat knowing a bit of insight into this world that I am looking at from the outside,"
It really doesn't affect anyone's decision making process at a significant or meaningful stage.
I agree, from some point of view, what I did was incorrect -- which is why I edited my post and won't be doing so again... but from another perspective, as R1CH stated, and even FXOBoss said earlier, discussing these things publicly is commonplace and not bad at all.
Just depends on your pov. Jumping all over me isn't the right way to go. I appreciate Kennigits responses because he's trying to explain his point of view and discuss this rationally.
Did they tell you that you could publically announce there discussions with you? Because if not you have no right to.
Kennigit is right, regardless of what it means to other teams, you shouldn't drop details from private conversations without consent of the other parties. That it's about business is important, but irrelevant to the main point. Sorry, details like that shouldn't become public unless those involved want them to be, period.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
It's been clearly stated that most players/teams/etc already know what people are asking for and how much people make. The most of TL isn't in a position to do anything with this information other than say, "wow thats kinda neat knowing a bit of insight into this world that I am looking at from the outside,"
It really doesn't affect anyone's decision making process at a significant or meaningful stage.
I agree, from some point of view, what I did was incorrect -- which is why I edited my post and won't be doing so again... but from another perspective, as R1CH stated, and even FXOBoss said earlier, discussing these things publicly is commonplace and not bad at all.
Just depends on your pov. Jumping all over me isn't the right way to go. I appreciate Kennigits responses because he's trying to explain his point of view and discuss this rationally.
Did they tell you that you could publically announce there discussions with you? Because if not you have no right to.
He was within his rights to, unless he signed some sort of legal document stating he would keep it disclosed. The contract negotiations may have been private but that doesn't mean shit. My neighbor bang in private all night, that doesn't mean I cannot tell co-workers about what I hear.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
It would depend if Sleep and Sangho thought that the information disclosed was to be kept confidential.
The mere fact that we haven't heard any talks about other salaries is representation that they want it confidential.
Exactly. All that information is (within a range) known to teams just through negotiation, but in general players don't want it public. I can't think of a single player who has made it public.
On January 17 2012 10:02 tree.hugger wrote: Kennigit is right, regardless of what it means to other teams, you shouldn't drop details from private conversations without consent of the other parties. That it's about business is important, but irrelevant to the main point. Sorry, details like that shouldn't become public unless those involved want them to be, period.
You're right. Which is why, as I've said repeatedly, I edited out my post (obviously irrelevant because it's been quoted 490340 times), and won't do something like that again. I realize that people disagree with this action and despite the fact that I don't necessarily see the harm, I won't be doing it.
The only reason I'm continuing to post is because I enjoy the debate about publicly stating this kind of information. Personally, I think it's interesting and I for one would love to see all this stuff be public, I think it'd be helpful.
On January 17 2012 10:02 tree.hugger wrote: Kennigit is right, regardless of what it means to other teams, you shouldn't drop details from private conversations without consent of the other parties. That it's about business is important, but irrelevant to the main point. Sorry, details like that shouldn't become public unless those involved want them to be, period.
You're right. Which is why, as I've said repeatedly, I edited out my post (obviously irrelevant because it's been quoted 490340 times), and won't do something like that again. I realize that people disagree with this action and despite the fact that I don't necessarily see the harm, I won't be doing it.
The only reason I'm continuing to post is because I enjoy the debate about publicly stating this kind of information. Personally, I think it's interesting and I for one would love to see all this stuff be public, I think it'd be helpful.
Let's do a thought experiment then, that has a significant basis in reality and the competitive game market (specifically WC3).
Suppose you work in let's say an insurance office. One day, without anyone's consent, the employer decides that he is going to post everyone's salaries up on a board for everyone to view. You go to view your salary and notice yourself in the lower half. Let's say there is a man named John who is quite a bit above you in pay grade but does the exact same job. You review the statistics and you sold twice as many insurance policies as he did for the past 3 months running; but he has been here 5 years longer. What do you do?
Some people will simply say to themselves, you know what that guy has seniority and those are probably cost of living and loyalty adjustments and if I go at this rate for the same amt of time I will probably make more than he does.
Others will find this a travesty and get pissed and demand more. If they don't get what they want they may seek other work, and now the company is screwed out of a better salesperson.
Now what is the point of this all in regards to transparency of information in regards to player salaries and business. Well transparency in its ideal form sounds amazing. We all get to know everything, so that we can examine it, adjust our business models, and more easily spot flaws/embezzling/etc. The problem isn't with your idealistic sense of wanting more transparency and information. It is actually with the players and the companies (teams). Ego is the problem. And even more specifically you need to consider the age and maturity level of your "employees". I hate to beat a dead horse, but MajOr has not exactly demonstrated professionalism in the past, yet there is no doubt that he is an extremely skilled player. Perhaps he finds out that a player he beats regularly in tournaments and on ladders makes double what he does. He could very well up his price tag based on his conception of self-worth and we could have a market that inflates very quickly. On the business end and in terms of diversity, that cause consolidation.
If a player market experienced massive inflation, then only larger teams with larger budgets would be able to afford players who drew eyeballs. Small teams would begin to die off, and we would have WC3.
Now all of this said, I am by no means against transparency in regards to this info. But you would have to find a clever way to minimize the effects of people and their conceptions on the system. If it was strictly business and data, then it would be much simpler.
On January 17 2012 10:05 Xeris wrote: I realize that people disagree with this action and despite the fact that I don't necessarily see the harm, I won't be doing it.
While you may not see harm being on your end, I think the harm comes in intangibles. If I were a manager of a team and my team wanted a player who was asking $Y and just got shut down by another team, I'd offer him less than $Y given that I know the demand for him does not match what he's asking for (at least to that team)...thereby giving me bargaining power to lowball the player.
I know if I were applying for jobs at $100k and kept getting rejected and someone came along and offered me $80k I'd probably take it.
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
On January 17 2012 10:05 Xeris wrote: I realize that people disagree with this action and despite the fact that I don't necessarily see the harm, I won't be doing it.
While you may not see harm being on your end, I think the harm comes in intangibles. If I were a manager of a team and my team wanted a player who was asking $Y and just got shut down by another team, I'd offer him less than $Y given that I know the demand for him does not match what he's asking for (at least to that team)...thereby giving me bargaining power to lowball the player.
I know if I were applying for jobs at $100k and kept getting rejected and someone came along and offered me $80k I'd probably take it.
On January 17 2012 09:58 Rabbet wrote: Everyone knows that the straw and cup cost McDonalds more than the syrup and water to make the soda and that combined they don't cost more the 2.5 cents....but people still pay $1.50 for it.
Having worked in retail before that's not really true...but point taken, haha.
On January 17 2012 10:02 tree.hugger wrote: Kennigit is right, regardless of what it means to other teams, you shouldn't drop details from private conversations without consent of the other parties. That it's about business is important, but irrelevant to the main point. Sorry, details like that shouldn't become public unless those involved want them to be, period.
You're right. Which is why, as I've said repeatedly, I edited out my post (obviously irrelevant because it's been quoted 490340 times), and won't do something like that again. I realize that people disagree with this action and despite the fact that I don't necessarily see the harm, I won't be doing it.
The only reason I'm continuing to post is because I enjoy the debate about publicly stating this kind of information. Personally, I think it's interesting and I for one would love to see all this stuff be public, I think it'd be helpful.
Let's do a thought experiment then, that has a significant basis in reality and the competitive game market (specifically WC3).
Suppose you work in let's say an insurance office. One day, without anyone's consent, the employer decides that he is going to post everyone's salaries up on a board for everyone to view. You go to view your salary and notice yourself in the lower half. Let's say there is a man named John who is quite a bit above you in pay grade but does the exact same job. You review the statistics and you sold twice as many insurance policies as he did for the past 3 months running; but he has been here 5 years longer. What do you do?
Some people will simply say to themselves, you know what that guy has seniority and those are probably cost of living and loyalty adjustments and if I go at this rate for the same amt of time I will probably make more than he does.
Others will find this a travesty and get pissed and demand more. If they don't get what they want they may seek other work, and now the company is screwed out of a better salesperson.
Now what is the point of this all in regards to transparency of information in regards to player salaries and business. Well transparency in its ideal form sounds amazing. We all get to know everything, so that we can examine it, adjust our business models, and more easily spot flaws/embezzling/etc. The problem isn't with your idealistic sense of wanting more transparency and information. It is actually with the players and the companies (teams). Ego is the problem. And even more specifically you need to consider the age and maturity level of your "employees". I hate to beat a dead horse, but MajOr has not exactly demonstrated professionalism in the past, yet there is no doubt that he is an extremely skilled player. Perhaps he finds out that a player he beats regularly in tournaments and on ladders makes double what he does. He could very well up his price tag based on his conception of self-worth and we could have a market that inflates very quickly. On the business end and in terms of diversity, that cause consolidation.
If a player market experienced massive inflation, then only larger teams with larger budgets would be able to afford players who drew eyeballs. Small teams would begin to die off, and we would have WC3.
Now all of this said, I am by no means against transparency in regards to this info. But you would have to find a clever way to minimize the effects of people and their conceptions on the system. If it was strictly business and data, then it would be much simpler.
There are always two parties in contract negotiations with both parties in the position to not sign and pursue other opportunities.
WC3 died off for a good reason, there is no market for it.
I have heard for a while that everyone in the know, knows how much people are getting paid and what salaries are and whatnot. What difference does it make if the public knows, especially if the people who really matter (ie the people in the know) know? Sorry for any incoherence.
GOD1 can probably pay 3 tier 3 players to play for him instead of doing it himself. Really gives a new meaning to the word "ownage".
On a serious note: It could be possible that these players have already given this leaving their korean team in hopes of getting picked up by a foreign team a good deal of thought already. Most people think about what they are going to do at least the next day when they no longer have a team or place to stay. No person is stupid enough to give up the place they've lived without having a place to stay at least for a couple of nights. Golden is 17, which means he will most likely just live with his parents again. I think a smart thing for these players to do is at least go to school/work another job in addition to streaming(to gain exposure).
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro.
You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom.
If you're doing it for the money, you're doing it wrong.
On January 17 2012 10:47 BasilForSkin wrote: I have heard for a while that everyone in the know, knows how much people are getting paid and what salaries are and whatnot. What difference does it make if the public knows, especially if the people who really matter (ie the people in the know) know? Sorry for any incoherence.
If player's salaries become common knowledge then you start to hear "This guy gets 100k per year?!?! He got rofl stomped hardcore 4-0'd in a showmatch, why is he paid so much?!?1" No industry wants to deal with the PR involved with defending salaries, although in the end it tunes the industry in and helps deliver a better product. The example above is hypothetical, but if a player were getting 100k per year salary(or more) and gave a terrible showing at a hyped up showmatch or event then the fans and sponsors have a legitimate concern.
Similar to the Naniwa incident where he probe rushed, the guy is paid to be a pro and give us what we want as consumers.
On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote: Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that. Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA.
no one cares about my background? are u fucking serious? LOL
Well u got signed by MTW. I have a lot of respect for this team. So i think they dont care about your background but your skills at this game. Seems like in the end it is about skill.Thats why i came to this conclusion... Correct me if i am wrong.
People still flaming you on TL...well thats another story.
back to topic: I think Dragon will find an Team regardless of this so called "scandal"
In my opinion a salary (negotiating) is always somethings between the team and the player. Because of several reasons:
a) Other players in a team don't need to know what you get, for all players goes the same, you have to do your best and that's what you get paid for. You shouldn't be intrested in other players salaries, the only reason for you to ask for a higher salary is when you think you deserve that. Not because someone else gets more...
b) What your salary is, is something private. Not everyone needs to know what I get for the work I do, that's my concern. Only the Goverment (taxes) and my employer need to know what my Salary is. All other have nothing to do with what I earn and how I spend it.
c) Your negotiating position gets F@#$ed up, other teams already know what you kinda wants to get offered so the entire game of the opening bid is gone.
d) The entire player salary market gets Screwed, when Sleep asks $ 1.500,-, then player X who thinks he is better then Sleep ask $ 2.000,- because he will think that's reasonable.... and so on and so on.....
Ok, so from what I'm getting at, thread about them leaving is created, Xeris makes a post that people don't agree with. Xeris edits his posts and says his bad, and people are keeping at him. He admitted he made the wrong judgement call, and explained why he did it. Lets think about all the awesome stuff he does now again and remember how much we appreciate it.
I think Golden will be a great pick up for someone, to be honest I haven't watched Dragon much. Looking forward to seeing where they end up!
On January 17 2012 16:00 michielbrands wrote: d) The entire player salary market gets Screwed, when Sleep asks $ 1.500,-, then player X who thinks he is better then Sleep ask $ 2.000,- because he will think that's reasonable.... and so on and so on.....
Ehh, this one isn't really valid. If someone is looking for a salary, I see no reason why they should have to make a random guess. That's what it seems like Sleep is doing to begin with. If all the players had a rough idea, they could look at a player like HuK (who is highly marketable and skilled) and base their possible salary demands off that. If they're half as skilled and a quarter as marketable, they know where they fit in terms of pay.
I mean, this is the same concept we follow in the real world in normal careers. I expect a competitive salary for my field, something I can judge because salary information isn't a secret. On top of that, I know what kind of raises to expect with different conditions like degrees. If I had to guess without a real basis, I would never know if I'm being exploited (I have no doubt that some top players are making far less than they could if they knew what to ask for) or if I'm asking for too much (which is what Sleep is clearly doing). Precisely because salary information is available, I know what my degree is worth, I know what people in my field make, and as a result I'm treated fairly.
Now obviously players and organizations may want to hide their salaries from the public (although I'm not 100% sure why -- is it because they're afraid of backlash or ridicule? I mean, professional athletes' salaries are all transparent...), but I'd hope other progamers are aware of what their peers make. It looks like Sleep (and several other players) may not be however.
I know the Austrians love the General Discussion forum. Why haven't I seen a similar influx into the Starcraft 2 Discussion Forum, where Hayek and Akerlof are actually being touched on in a tangible manner?
On January 17 2012 16:15 nvs. wrote: You know where you are able to find out how much players make?
In sports. >.>
You can also find what people make in pretty much every field -- doctors, lawyers, engineers, fast-food workers, plumbers, actors, you name it. None of this information is really a secret, which is good because it ensures people know what to expect.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
You cant generalise like that. Many top sports teams dont divulge salaries, for instance soccer teams that arent public limited companies. The newspapers tend to get the companies annual statements and roughly guess from the companies salary bills in those cases but its certainly not public knowledge.
Also in every workplace ive worked in if people knew for sure what everyone else was making including bonuses it would cause the opposite of stability. Some would demand equality, some would want to up and leave or be really unhappy. Thats is why Kennigit is right its not good for esports.
The main reason I'm posting though is that I dont understand Xeris' logic here. On one hand he says Koreans are demanding too much money and on the other he states of the only two cases he knows of they asked for less than the lowest tier on his list. Given the success of koreans in Europe and NA of even code B level players then this doesnt to me seem like an outrageous wage demand since you dont start out low in negotiations.
Maybe its more than most teams can afford but thats another matter and in that case maybe they should spend more time finding and nurturing local talent that wont need to be flown halfway around the world.
(1) If only one team reveals and the other teams don't, the other teams get a huge advantage at drafting.
(2) If all teams don't reveal, asymmetric information happens. E-sports is less efficient, but no one wants to be the idiot in (1).
(3) If all teams reveal, free markets happen. E-sports is more efficient.
But (3) isn't feasible. So (2).
It's an extremely small scale example of, say, the global warming or nuclear weapons debate. Sure, E-sports can't kill millions of people, but the principle is the same.
On January 16 2012 17:01 KeyHunt wrote: People talking about how 1.5K a month is minimum wage need to realize that in the end, the community can only support what it can support..and that is definitely not every single full-time player making 50K a year..it's just not feasible. You also need to realize that is just pure salary, that doesn't include travel, accommodations, registration or anything else.
That's the same for every salaried job. Benefits/taxes add a huge amount of cost to employees. Travel/accomodations/registration for SC2 players is nothing.
ya bro international flights and multiday hotel stays and shit is MAD CHEAP FO SHO
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
You cant generalise like that. Many top sports teams dont divulge salaries, for instance soccer teams that arent public limited companies. The newspapers tend to get the companies annual statements and roughly guess from the companies salary bills in those cases but its certainly not public knowledge.
Also in every workplace ive worked in if people knew for sure what everyone else was making including bonuses it would cause the opposite of stability. Some would demand equality, some would want to up and leave or be really unhappy. Thats is why Kennigit is right its not good for esports.
The main reason I'm posting though is that I dont understand Xeris' logic here. On one hand he says Koreans are demanding too much money and on the other he states of the only two cases he knows of they asked for less than the lowest tier on his list. Given the success of koreans in Europe and NA of even code B level players then this doesnt to me seem like an outrageous wage demand since you dont start out low in negotiations.
Maybe its more than most teams can afford but thats another matter and in that case maybe they should spend more time finding and nurturing local talent that wont need to be flown halfway around the world.
so he cant generalize by using sports as an example but you can generalize by making baseless assumptions about your workplace and what MIGHT happen if people knew other peoples salaries.
Pretty sure 3k/month = 36K/year which is certainly not lower than 5-10K PER YEAR. Learn to fucking read.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
You cant generalise like that. Many top sports teams dont divulge salaries, for instance soccer teams that arent public limited companies. The newspapers tend to get the companies annual statements and roughly guess from the companies salary bills in those cases but its certainly not public knowledge.
Also in every workplace ive worked in if people knew for sure what everyone else was making including bonuses it would cause the opposite of stability. Some would demand equality, some would want to up and leave or be really unhappy. Thats is why Kennigit is right its not good for esports.
The main reason I'm posting though is that I dont understand Xeris' logic here. On one hand he says Koreans are demanding too much money and on the other he states of the only two cases he knows of they asked for less than the lowest tier on his list. Given the success of koreans in Europe and NA of even code B level players then this doesnt to me seem like an outrageous wage demand since you dont start out low in negotiations.
Maybe its more than most teams can afford but thats another matter and in that case maybe they should spend more time finding and nurturing local talent that wont need to be flown halfway around the world.
so he cant generalize by using sports as an example but you can generalize by making baseless assumptions about your workplace and what MIGHT happen if people knew other peoples salaries.
Pretty sure 3k/month = 36K/year which is certainly not lower than 5-10K PER YEAR. Learn to fucking read.
Its not a baseless assumption since I have witnessed what has happened when employees have found out they were paid less than someone else. Its not rocket science.
To say all sports fully disclose however IS generalisation.
And in response to your aggressive point, 1.5k is in the range and I repeat in a negotiation you start out asking for a higher amount than you will settle on. Asking for 3k is slightly above the lowest tier he quoted so again its hardly outrageous is it.
On January 17 2012 10:02 tree.hugger wrote: Kennigit is right, regardless of what it means to other teams, you shouldn't drop details from private conversations without consent of the other parties. That it's about business is important, but irrelevant to the main point. Sorry, details like that shouldn't become public unless those involved want them to be, period.
You're right. Which is why, as I've said repeatedly, I edited out my post (obviously irrelevant because it's been quoted 490340 times), and won't do something like that again. I realize that people disagree with this action and despite the fact that I don't necessarily see the harm, I won't be doing it.
The only reason I'm continuing to post is because I enjoy the debate about publicly stating this kind of information. Personally, I think it's interesting and I for one would love to see all this stuff be public, I think it'd be helpful.
Let's do a thought experiment then, that has a significant basis in reality and the competitive game market (specifically WC3).
Suppose you work in let's say an insurance office. One day, without anyone's consent, the employer decides that he is going to post everyone's salaries up on a board for everyone to view. You go to view your salary and notice yourself in the lower half. Let's say there is a man named John who is quite a bit above you in pay grade but does the exact same job. You review the statistics and you sold twice as many insurance policies as he did for the past 3 months running; but he has been here 5 years longer. What do you do?
Some people will simply say to themselves, you know what that guy has seniority and those are probably cost of living and loyalty adjustments and if I go at this rate for the same amt of time I will probably make more than he does.
Others will find this a travesty and get pissed and demand more. If they don't get what they want they may seek other work, and now the company is screwed out of a better salesperson.
Now what is the point of this all in regards to transparency of information in regards to player salaries and business. Well transparency in its ideal form sounds amazing. We all get to know everything, so that we can examine it, adjust our business models, and more easily spot flaws/embezzling/etc. The problem isn't with your idealistic sense of wanting more transparency and information. It is actually with the players and the companies (teams). Ego is the problem. And even more specifically you need to consider the age and maturity level of your "employees". I hate to beat a dead horse, but MajOr has not exactly demonstrated professionalism in the past, yet there is no doubt that he is an extremely skilled player. Perhaps he finds out that a player he beats regularly in tournaments and on ladders makes double what he does. He could very well up his price tag based on his conception of self-worth and we could have a market that inflates very quickly. On the business end and in terms of diversity, that cause consolidation.
If a player market experienced massive inflation, then only larger teams with larger budgets would be able to afford players who drew eyeballs. Small teams would begin to die off, and we would have WC3.
Now all of this said, I am by no means against transparency in regards to this info. But you would have to find a clever way to minimize the effects of people and their conceptions on the system. If it was strictly business and data, then it would be much simpler.
This might blow your mind but IF YOU DO YOUR JOB BETTER YOU DESERVE BETTER COMPENSATION. No one is holding a gun to a company/team's head and forcing them to pay them what they are asking. The simple fact is that transparency gives the players a much more fair place to bargain from in contract negations. Simple as that. If you have won multiple big tournaments and see say HuK is making 50K at EG but you are getting paid 20K. You'd certainly fight for higher wages on your next contract wouldn't you? If you don't you are absolutely retarded. Hiding salary information only serves to empower greediness on the team and company's end.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
You cant generalise like that. Many top sports teams dont divulge salaries, for instance soccer teams that arent public limited companies. The newspapers tend to get the companies annual statements and roughly guess from the companies salary bills in those cases but its certainly not public knowledge.
Also in every workplace ive worked in if people knew for sure what everyone else was making including bonuses it would cause the opposite of stability. Some would demand equality, some would want to up and leave or be really unhappy. Thats is why Kennigit is right its not good for esports.
The main reason I'm posting though is that I dont understand Xeris' logic here. On one hand he says Koreans are demanding too much money and on the other he states of the only two cases he knows of they asked for less than the lowest tier on his list. Given the success of koreans in Europe and NA of even code B level players then this doesnt to me seem like an outrageous wage demand since you dont start out low in negotiations.
Maybe its more than most teams can afford but thats another matter and in that case maybe they should spend more time finding and nurturing local talent that wont need to be flown halfway around the world.
so he cant generalize by using sports as an example but you can generalize by making baseless assumptions about your workplace and what MIGHT happen if people knew other peoples salaries.
Pretty sure 3k/month = 36K/year which is certainly not lower than 5-10K PER YEAR. Learn to fucking read.
Its not a baseless assumption since I have witnessed what has happened when employees have found out they were paid less than someone else. Its not rocket science.
To say all sports fully disclose however IS generalisation.
It is baseless. You have no idea what would actually happen at your work but you are pretending like you do. The fact is if you get paid less and work better you deserve to be compensated as such. Obviously you have never been particularly good at your job so it must not be much of a concern to you that you might be paid less for your substandard work. When you higher painters, do they all charge the same? No. Better painters charge more. And it isn't a secret what they are asking for or being paid. They big on each and every job. Players have to blindly negotiate a contract without any baseline statistics to go off of. That is an inherently flawed system.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
You cant generalise like that. Many top sports teams dont divulge salaries, for instance soccer teams that arent public limited companies. The newspapers tend to get the companies annual statements and roughly guess from the companies salary bills in those cases but its certainly not public knowledge.
Also in every workplace ive worked in if people knew for sure what everyone else was making including bonuses it would cause the opposite of stability. Some would demand equality, some would want to up and leave or be really unhappy. Thats is why Kennigit is right its not good for esports.
The main reason I'm posting though is that I dont understand Xeris' logic here. On one hand he says Koreans are demanding too much money and on the other he states of the only two cases he knows of they asked for less than the lowest tier on his list. Given the success of koreans in Europe and NA of even code B level players then this doesnt to me seem like an outrageous wage demand since you dont start out low in negotiations.
Maybe its more than most teams can afford but thats another matter and in that case maybe they should spend more time finding and nurturing local talent that wont need to be flown halfway around the world.
so he cant generalize by using sports as an example but you can generalize by making baseless assumptions about your workplace and what MIGHT happen if people knew other peoples salaries.
Pretty sure 3k/month = 36K/year which is certainly not lower than 5-10K PER YEAR. Learn to fucking read.
Its not a baseless assumption since I have witnessed what has happened when employees have found out they were paid less than someone else. Its not rocket science.
To say all sports fully disclose however IS generalisation.
And in response to your aggressive point, 1.5k is in the range and I repeat in a negotiation you start out asking for a higher amount than you will settle on. Asking for 3k is slightly above the lowest tier he quoted so again its hardly outrageous is it.
PS I like how you dodge the part where you blatantly lied about him saying they are asking less than the lowest tier of pros.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
You cant generalise like that. Many top sports teams dont divulge salaries, for instance soccer teams that arent public limited companies. The newspapers tend to get the companies annual statements and roughly guess from the companies salary bills in those cases but its certainly not public knowledge.
Also in every workplace ive worked in if people knew for sure what everyone else was making including bonuses it would cause the opposite of stability. Some would demand equality, some would want to up and leave or be really unhappy. Thats is why Kennigit is right its not good for esports.
The main reason I'm posting though is that I dont understand Xeris' logic here. On one hand he says Koreans are demanding too much money and on the other he states of the only two cases he knows of they asked for less than the lowest tier on his list. Given the success of koreans in Europe and NA of even code B level players then this doesnt to me seem like an outrageous wage demand since you dont start out low in negotiations.
Maybe its more than most teams can afford but thats another matter and in that case maybe they should spend more time finding and nurturing local talent that wont need to be flown halfway around the world.
so he cant generalize by using sports as an example but you can generalize by making baseless assumptions about your workplace and what MIGHT happen if people knew other peoples salaries.
Pretty sure 3k/month = 36K/year which is certainly not lower than 5-10K PER YEAR. Learn to fucking read.
Its not a baseless assumption since I have witnessed what has happened when employees have found out they were paid less than someone else. Its not rocket science.
To say all sports fully disclose however IS generalisation.
And in response to your aggressive point, 1.5k is in the range and I repeat in a negotiation you start out asking for a higher amount than you will settle on. Asking for 3k is slightly above the lowest tier he quoted so again its hardly outrageous is it.
PS I like how you dodge the part where you blatantly lied about him saying they are asking less than the lowest tier of pros.
OK they are asking for what he listed as the lowest tier of pros, that sound any worse?
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
You cant generalise like that. Many top sports teams dont divulge salaries, for instance soccer teams that arent public limited companies. The newspapers tend to get the companies annual statements and roughly guess from the companies salary bills in those cases but its certainly not public knowledge.
Also in every workplace ive worked in if people knew for sure what everyone else was making including bonuses it would cause the opposite of stability. Some would demand equality, some would want to up and leave or be really unhappy. Thats is why Kennigit is right its not good for esports.
The main reason I'm posting though is that I dont understand Xeris' logic here. On one hand he says Koreans are demanding too much money and on the other he states of the only two cases he knows of they asked for less than the lowest tier on his list. Given the success of koreans in Europe and NA of even code B level players then this doesnt to me seem like an outrageous wage demand since you dont start out low in negotiations.
Maybe its more than most teams can afford but thats another matter and in that case maybe they should spend more time finding and nurturing local talent that wont need to be flown halfway around the world.
so he cant generalize by using sports as an example but you can generalize by making baseless assumptions about your workplace and what MIGHT happen if people knew other peoples salaries.
Pretty sure 3k/month = 36K/year which is certainly not lower than 5-10K PER YEAR. Learn to fucking read.
Its not a baseless assumption since I have witnessed what has happened when employees have found out they were paid less than someone else. Its not rocket science.
To say all sports fully disclose however IS generalisation.
It is baseless. You have no idea what would actually happen at your work but you are pretending like you do. The fact is if you get paid less and work better you deserve to be compensated as such. Obviously you have never been particularly good at your job so it must not be much of a concern to you that you might be paid less for your substandard work. When you higher painters, do they all charge the same? No. Better painters charge more. And it isn't a secret what they are asking for or being paid. They big on each and every job. Players have to blindly negotiate a contract without any baseline statistics to go off of. That is an inherently flawed system.
Again what I have witnessed isnt made up or baseless and I point you a post not far above where someone is saying that if there was clarity players could ask for parity in salary from the greedy teams.
The painter analogy is bad since I am not employing them if I hire them for a job that would be their company that pays them or if they are a contractor then they pay themselves. People in general dont get what they deserve they get what they can negotiate out of their employer.
On January 17 2012 16:15 nvs. wrote: You know where you are able to find out how much players make?
In sports. >.>
Because its legally required by athletic commissions.
Hmm, this really isn't the case in my opinion. Many athletes get the majority of their money from endorsements and sponsors actually, which are not included by athletic commissions are they?
On January 17 2012 10:02 tree.hugger wrote: Kennigit is right, regardless of what it means to other teams, you shouldn't drop details from private conversations without consent of the other parties. That it's about business is important, but irrelevant to the main point. Sorry, details like that shouldn't become public unless those involved want them to be, period.
You're right. Which is why, as I've said repeatedly, I edited out my post (obviously irrelevant because it's been quoted 490340 times), and won't do something like that again. I realize that people disagree with this action and despite the fact that I don't necessarily see the harm, I won't be doing it.
The only reason I'm continuing to post is because I enjoy the debate about publicly stating this kind of information. Personally, I think it's interesting and I for one would love to see all this stuff be public, I think it'd be helpful.
Let's do a thought experiment then, that has a significant basis in reality and the competitive game market (specifically WC3).
Suppose you work in let's say an insurance office. One day, without anyone's consent, the employer decides that he is going to post everyone's salaries up on a board for everyone to view. You go to view your salary and notice yourself in the lower half. Let's say there is a man named John who is quite a bit above you in pay grade but does the exact same job. You review the statistics and you sold twice as many insurance policies as he did for the past 3 months running; but he has been here 5 years longer. What do you do?
Some people will simply say to themselves, you know what that guy has seniority and those are probably cost of living and loyalty adjustments and if I go at this rate for the same amt of time I will probably make more than he does.
Others will find this a travesty and get pissed and demand more. If they don't get what they want they may seek other work, and now the company is screwed out of a better salesperson.
Now what is the point of this all in regards to transparency of information in regards to player salaries and business. Well transparency in its ideal form sounds amazing. We all get to know everything, so that we can examine it, adjust our business models, and more easily spot flaws/embezzling/etc. The problem isn't with your idealistic sense of wanting more transparency and information. It is actually with the players and the companies (teams). Ego is the problem. And even more specifically you need to consider the age and maturity level of your "employees". I hate to beat a dead horse, but MajOr has not exactly demonstrated professionalism in the past, yet there is no doubt that he is an extremely skilled player. Perhaps he finds out that a player he beats regularly in tournaments and on ladders makes double what he does. He could very well up his price tag based on his conception of self-worth and we could have a market that inflates very quickly. On the business end and in terms of diversity, that cause consolidation.
If a player market experienced massive inflation, then only larger teams with larger budgets would be able to afford players who drew eyeballs. Small teams would begin to die off, and we would have WC3.
Now all of this said, I am by no means against transparency in regards to this info. But you would have to find a clever way to minimize the effects of people and their conceptions on the system. If it was strictly business and data, then it would be much simpler.
This might blow your mind but IF YOU DO YOUR JOB BETTER YOU DESERVE BETTER COMPENSATION. No one is holding a gun to a company/team's head and forcing them to pay them what they are asking. The simple fact is that transparency gives the players a much more fair place to bargain from in contract negations. Simple as that. If you have won multiple big tournaments and see say HuK is making 50K at EG but you are getting paid 20K. You'd certainly fight for higher wages on your next contract wouldn't you? If you don't you are absolutely retarded. Hiding salary information only serves to empower greediness on the team and company's end.
This isn't fully true, because when someone works like 5 year somewhere and you just a year which also states in the quote, he also show other things then doing his work good. Like being loyal to the company, perhaps he is also a better teamplayer? He makes sure other people are able to do their work better. Numbers ain't everything especially in work, you need different types to make a great team. One person who has a huge production for example, one person who makes sure all the ingredients are available so everyone can do their work without having to wait or search for ingredients for their work. On person who makes sure everyone knows what they have to do and what others do and so on... These are all factors who are extremly important to take notice from when you decide what kind of salary your people deserve.
In eSports goes the same, Tyler for example doesn't have the best results the last year, but he is a extremly entertaining person, he binds people to himself and his team due to his videoblogs, his analys and so on. Players will most of the time just look and themself and think "Hey I play better then Tyler, I deserve a higher salary". While teams will probably think completly different about this because they will use a calculation over different factors of their players: "Behaviour, results, exposure, etc." and that will decide a salary or what a player is "worth"
If this community decided what was "fair" then every organization would be broke as dirt lol. It's not just the players that have a complete disconnect from reality, it's the community to when it comes to how much players are worth, get, deserve, etc.
I'm not saying the community should decide player salaries, that would be stupid. The community doesn't know how much money the organizations have, and we don't know how business works, collectively. I just think that players have a right to know what other teams are paying people of their skill level, because in pretty much any other industry there's a standard payscale.
Your statement implies that because you dont know, that the players dont know. They do know how much each other make. Do you think they dont talk to each other?
Well I'm quite sure liquid was aware of what Huk had been contracted to as far as date of release, monetary, stipulations, so on and so forth.
So that in itself is information. What you're suggesting is that teams should be privileged to the monetary end of it but the community should not.
In my opinion it should be public information. All legitimate sports keep contracts completely public. You could say well yeah sports and esports are different but I remember when they released the income of WC3 players like Grubby, Moon, and many other contracted players.
For the most part Brood War players contracts are public. It's known that Flash is contracted to 250 grand a year. Hell even in earlier Brood War days like 03 Boxers salary was released. I don't recall the exact number but he was making somewhere above 100 grand.
Huge topic, can't read it all, just wanted to drop some comments on the early discussions on how much players make:
People need to remember that even though you need to work hard to become a pro and play full-time, you're still playing a game. You shouldn't expect to get rich of it, or even to make good money. You're being paid to do something others are willing to pay to do, the very fact that you actually can make money doing it should be good enough. This is why almost no one above college age plays professionally: They need a proper job with a proper salary.
January 16th, 2012, Seoul - We are sad to announce that Dragon and Golden decided to leave our team. Golden, who has been a part of our team since the very beginning, decided to part ways with our team after a long discussion with our management, where he expressed his strong desire to explore his opportunities in a foreign team. Dragon, however, decided to put gaming aside, at least from a professional perspective, in order to fully focus on work.
We wish both players the best of luck, and we would like our appreciation towards both for being a part of our teama in 2011.
Team SlayerS
Personally Dragon leaving SlayerS could be to focuss on work, but when you read on liquidpedia about him getting caught for stream cheating against thestC, and him saying he wont dream about becoming a professional gamer or dream about going to tournaments. This could also have a massive effect on his decision to leave SlayerS.
To be honest that is some screwed up shit from Fnatic. It seems like Fnatic didn't even try to negotiate at all when Sleep said $1.5k - if you didn't want to have him in the team you could have just said 'No, we are not recruiting new players for now" but instead you write on TL "He asked for $1.5k and we didn't want him because he is not worth that much to us". That is some bad professionalism, I don't know whether in this market people can behave like that but other industries that I have faced I have never seen anyone telling everyone in public.
How professional is that? I don't know who is telling the truth but someone quoted you and posted it on PlayXP and Sleep himself commented that it is a wrong information. You see what you have caused now? Whether the information from you was right or wrong, Sleep clearly wants to hide the conversation details that he had with you.
On January 16 2012 16:55 niteReloaded wrote: Isn't $1.5K like the minimum wage in US for working 8h a day including saturdays?
I thought solid pros make way more than that.......
In my state it's 7.25 per hour soooo....
40 hours a week (8 hours a day no weekends) = $290 x that by 4 weeks gets you 1160. And thats without taxes so its much lower.
So it's high than min. Wage ^_^
If you get paid less than 14k a year in the US you're technically poverty stricken so you pay basically zero in taxes. 48 hours a week is more reasonable for someone working full time minimum wage... even then it's still just barely over the line. For playing games, making your own hours, be able to travel around the world, and meet with people the world over... Making minimum wage is ungodly awesome... especially if it requires no degrees or apprenticeships.
On January 18 2012 06:41 CP-Jun wrote: To be honest that is some screwed up shit from Fnatic. It seems like Fnatic didn't even try to negotiate at all when Sleep said $1.5k - if you didn't want to have him in the team you could have just said 'No, we are not recruiting new players for now" but instead you write on TL "He asked for $1.5k and we didn't want him because he is not worth that much to us". That is some bad professionalism, I don't know whether in this market people can behave like that but other industries that I have faced I have never seen anyone telling everyone in public.
How professional is that? I don't know who is telling the truth but someone quoted you and posted it on PlayXP and Sleep himself commented that it is a wrong information. You see what you have caused now? Whether the information from you was right or wrong, Sleep clearly wants to hide the conversation details that he had with you.
What Xeris did is definitely not a common occurrence. He is also no longer a part of fnatic and hasn't been for a while now. This is just information he found out while working for them. In this particular case I don't think you should be directing your ire at fnatic :\
On January 18 2012 06:41 CP-Jun wrote: To be honest that is some screwed up shit from Fnatic. It seems like Fnatic didn't even try to negotiate at all when Sleep said $1.5k - if you didn't want to have him in the team you could have just said 'No, we are not recruiting new players for now" but instead you write on TL "He asked for $1.5k and we didn't want him because he is not worth that much to us". That is some bad professionalism, I don't know whether in this market people can behave like that but other industries that I have faced I have never seen anyone telling everyone in public.
How professional is that? I don't know who is telling the truth but someone quoted you and posted it on PlayXP and Sleep himself commented that it is a wrong information. You see what you have caused now? Whether the information from you was right or wrong, Sleep clearly wants to hide the conversation details that he had with you.
It could be Fnatic covering their own ass too, maybe they wanted to avoid being involved in some secret bidding war for a specific player
On January 16 2012 16:55 niteReloaded wrote: Isn't $1.5K like the minimum wage in US for working 8h a day including saturdays?
I thought solid pros make way more than that.......
In my state it's 7.25 per hour soooo....
40 hours a week (8 hours a day no weekends) = $290 x that by 4 weeks gets you 1160. And thats without taxes so its much lower.
So it's high than min. Wage ^_^
If you get paid less than 14k a year in the US you're technically poverty stricken so you pay basically zero in taxes. 48 hours a week is more reasonable for someone working full time minimum wage... even then it's still just barely over the line. For playing games, making your own hours, be able to travel around the world, and meet with people the world over... Making minimum wage is ungodly awesome... especially if it requires no degrees or apprenticeships.
Every minimum wage job I've ever worked was hell bent on making sure the employees never earned overtime and absolutely hated having to give holiday pay
On January 16 2012 16:55 niteReloaded wrote: Isn't $1.5K like the minimum wage in US for working 8h a day including saturdays?
I thought solid pros make way more than that.......
In my state it's 7.25 per hour soooo....
40 hours a week (8 hours a day no weekends) = $290 x that by 4 weeks gets you 1160. And thats without taxes so its much lower.
So it's high than min. Wage ^_^
If you get paid less than 14k a year in the US you're technically poverty stricken so you pay basically zero in taxes. 48 hours a week is more reasonable for someone working full time minimum wage... even then it's still just barely over the line. For playing games, making your own hours, be able to travel around the world, and meet with people the world over... Making minimum wage is ungodly awesome... especially if it requires no degrees or apprenticeships.
when you play 10+ hours of games of starcraft everyday, it cease to become a "game" for you.
For most pros, the experience you accumulated in starcraft most likely won't help you at all after you retire. That 5-10 void years will be horrible on your resume and make it very hard for you to land any job with potential future prospects.
Anyway, for California (48 hours work a week) Minimum wage: $8.00 Annual income: ~$20k
Better off getting a minimum wage job than to become a progamer, at least it'll be worth something when you apply to a better job in a few years
On January 18 2012 07:56 desRow wrote: I talked with sleep and he doesn't want 1500$ a month it was a misunderstanding with fnatic TT only wants travel
See, look what happened to his reputation. So many people now consider him as a greedy gamer who wants to be paid when he didn't even break into Code A.. I personally feel very sorry for Sleep.
On January 16 2012 16:55 niteReloaded wrote: Isn't $1.5K like the minimum wage in US for working 8h a day including saturdays?
I thought solid pros make way more than that.......
In my state it's 7.25 per hour soooo....
40 hours a week (8 hours a day no weekends) = $290 x that by 4 weeks gets you 1160. And thats without taxes so its much lower.
So it's high than min. Wage ^_^
If you get paid less than 14k a year in the US you're technically poverty stricken so you pay basically zero in taxes. 48 hours a week is more reasonable for someone working full time minimum wage... even then it's still just barely over the line. For playing games, making your own hours, be able to travel around the world, and meet with people the world over... Making minimum wage is ungodly awesome... especially if it requires no degrees or apprenticeships.
when you play 10+ hours of games of starcraft everyday, it cease to become a "game" for you.
For most pros, the experience you accumulated in starcraft most likely won't help you at all after you retire. That 5-10 void years will be horrible on your resume and make it very hard for you to land any job with potential future prospects.
Anyway, for California (48 hours work a week) Minimum wage: $8.00 Annual income: ~$20k
Better off getting a minimum wage job than to become a progamer, at least it'll be worth something when you apply to a better job in a few years
Many pro athletes (including the bench warmers) use their time in sports as a spring board to other things. I imagine a programer, if he/she is inclined, can go on to be a game caster, video marketing, game marketing or tester, etc. You can't be so limited in scope that you miss the opportunities that are there. I imagine Slayer, if they are still around, will need people in management that know what to look for and who to recruit.
On January 18 2012 07:56 desRow wrote: I talked with sleep and he doesn't want 1500$ a month it was a misunderstanding with fnatic TT only wants travel
See, look what happened to his reputation. So many people now consider him as a greedy gamer who wants to be paid when he didn't even break into Code A.. I personally feel very sorry for Sleep.
I don't think people necessarily consider him greedy. I see nothing wrong with asking for what you think you are worth. Also in negotiations it is common place to overprice yourself to counter the low ball the opposition will offer. The issue that was presented in this thread was that it was believed that the prices given for these players were supposed to be kept private and it was not obviously. So now we are talking about it.
It feels like Koreans who join foreigner teams is looking for a short term solution and have this image of foreigner players being wealthy and rich. As Xeris said earlier. 3k per month is something SangHo(Killer) thinks that he can get and he's not worth that much....
On January 18 2012 07:56 desRow wrote: I talked with sleep and he doesn't want 1500$ a month it was a misunderstanding with fnatic TT only wants travel
On January 18 2012 06:41 CP-Jun wrote: To be honest that is some screwed up shit from Fnatic. It seems like Fnatic didn't even try to negotiate at all when Sleep said $1.5k - if you didn't want to have him in the team you could have just said 'No, we are not recruiting new players for now" but instead you write on TL "He asked for $1.5k and we didn't want him because he is not worth that much to us". That is some bad professionalism, I don't know whether in this market people can behave like that but other industries that I have faced I have never seen anyone telling everyone in public.
How professional is that? I don't know who is telling the truth but someone quoted you and posted it on PlayXP and Sleep himself commented that it is a wrong information. You see what you have caused now? Whether the information from you was right or wrong, Sleep clearly wants to hide the conversation details that he had with you.
Xeris has been talking shit about the koreans quite alot on TL. I don't know why but he obviously don't like them.
On January 18 2012 07:56 desRow wrote: I talked with sleep and he doesn't want 1500$ a month it was a misunderstanding with fnatic TT only wants travel
Hmm sad if many people think badly of him cause of this misunderstanding
On January 18 2012 09:59 JoeAWESOME wrote: Fnatic.Golden? You can only guess...
It feels like Koreans who join foreigner teams is looking for a short term solution and have this image of foreigner players being wealthy and rich. As Xeris said earlier. 3k per month is something SangHo(Killer) thinks that he can get and he's not worth that much....
On January 18 2012 07:56 desRow wrote: I talked with sleep and he doesn't want 1500$ a month it was a misunderstanding with fnatic TT only wants travel
Glad that you could clear that out!
What? I am sorry but results wise in the GSL Killer is as worth as Huk(of course results are only 1 part of everything) but seriously if a team wants a pretty good and solid P SangHo is pretty much a pretty good deal. Especially if Huk earns"a life changing" amount of money.
I am not saying that Xeris decision was bad, after all a lot more stuff goes into choosing players than results unfortunately, but Killer as a player is pretty valuable.
People seem to forget that even with the old system just staying in Code S made you a pretty good player overall.Hell, even qualifying for Code A makes you pretty skilled overall.
You also need to realize that is just pure salary, that doesn't include travel, accommodations, registration or anything else.
Don't teams usually cover that shit?
I am not 100% sure what your side is on this. But yes teams usually cover that shit and they have to take that into consideration when they recruit players. That means that travel, looging at events and so on, is a "benefit" and part of the players wager as well. Just like parking space, lunch, Insurance at jobs are often seen"benefits".
the reason many leave is because they can't compete within their own house to be top dog, so they learn what they can and move on to grow. just like hero
On January 17 2012 09:43 Kennigit wrote: Because when sleep says to Fnatic, "this is the rate im looking for" he doesn't expect it to be public. The same when i go to a sponsor for TSL and give them a number, i don't expect them to write a blog saying "well kennigit asked me for X but i didn't see the value in it"....I may have been able to get that amount from a competitor but now it's public that another company decided it wasn't worth it - that absolutely has an impact on their evaluation (because they know i cant bid them against each other). When EG signs a sponsor they dont release a statement saying "we were looking for $X and we managed to find a deal with Y".
If Quantic wants to get Sleep tomorrow, they now know that (for whatever reasons) Sleep wasn't worth 1500 to Fnatic. They are announcing a new player so the situation at best is the same (depending when that discussion took place, because their budget is similar). I may not know what other teams are making bids on Sleep, but i know past a certain point it's very likely not to be fnatic. Thats bad.
Yeah some things you really don't discuss openly ;\ I have to agree with sir Kennigit here
Was there a reason for leaving SlayerS? Especially on Dragon's end seeing as SlayerS is known for having exceptional Terran players. Best of luck to both though, hopefully we will start seeing results from Golden and maybe see Dragon to start hitting the scene other than ladder/streaming (if he has, it hasn't been a very big splash yet...hopefully he doesn't pull a oGsFin and raise expectations only to fall very, very short).
Gosh I can't believe how(it seems) many people had such unrealistic expectations for salaries in e sports, especially for the little guys.
And well regardless of how much you think a player should earn there is limited money to go around in any industry and the only way to increase that amount is if more money gets invested into it. And considering how many people are not willing to pay 10 dollars a month for a tournament or how many people whined about SotG charging for optional subscriptions I don't see stuff changing soon.(Before anyone says how it is sponsors the ones that support everything, purchasing power has a lot to do with how much they want to invest).
Players may not earn much, but thet get what they get. The industry, if it wants to stay healthy, needs to live within its own means.
Why am I sounding kinda bitter about this?(I am not) I just remembered a pretty funny story when I was arguing about this kind of stuff on a SC2 forum and one guy insulted me and said idra earned more than both of my parents which kinda offended me but I found it funny how high the expectations are.But seriously, I don't know how much idra earns, but that comment kinda hurt
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
Its kind of true, look at hero and puma, neither are actually top Korean pros. The ONLY reason they are popular is that they are on non Korean Teams who can afford to send them to tournaments that the actually good players aren't at.
Well Dragon, I watched you back before you were very popular
I wish you the best of luck finding a team. You have a nice skill set and I think you'd be awesome to see in tournaments. You'd definitely be helping your team and you'd be awesome to watch in team leagues such as the GSTL, IPL TAC, NASTL, etc. I hope you keep streaming and you get a new team you like as much as SlayerS
Good move by both players. Dragon was a SlayerS in name only since he didn't live at the house and never played for them in teamleagues. Sure he benefited from being on SlayerS initially because otherwise nobody would have watched his stream but at this point he needs to try other options if he's to grow as a player. As far as Golden goes people are overrating the SlayerS effect. It's the place to go if you're terran, but Boxer, Cella and co. have yet to develop a top zerg (Coca doesn't count since he was already good when he was on Zenex). Better to be a big fish in a small pond than remain as the 4th string zerg on SlayerS.
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
Its kind of true, look at hero and puma, neither are actually top Korean pros. The ONLY reason they are popular is that they are on non Korean Teams who can afford to send them to tournaments that the actually good players aren't at.
Hero have the most revolutionizing PvZ, its unfair to call him a no namer.
If Hero worked in PvT alot better, he would be a force to reckon with
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
Its kind of true, look at hero and puma, neither are actually top Korean pros. The ONLY reason they are popular is that they are on non Korean Teams who can afford to send them to tournaments that the actually good players aren't at.
Hero have the most revolutionizing PvZ, its unfair to call him a no namer.
If Hero worked in PvT alot better, he would be a force to reckon with
See recent Homestory cup. MC is much better.
Not to say Hero is bad, but he is not a top tier Korean pro at the moment.
People often get really obsessed with money, its why I left one job to a new one where I could make 6 figures, after 3 years of that I realized, that to me anyways, lifestyle, management, enjoyment, future opportunity, so on was more important and left it for a new job. I am much happier make far less and am glad I made the jump.
I would think offers involve more then just $$$. Probably practice and streaming requirements, management so on. I don't know the industry that well so I don't want to make assumptions other then I'm sure there is much more then salary. I do know who you work for, and with, is often more important then what you make.
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
Its kind of true, look at hero and puma, neither are actually top Korean pros. The ONLY reason they are popular is that they are on non Korean Teams who can afford to send them to tournaments that the actually good players aren't at.
Hero have the most revolutionizing PvZ, its unfair to call him a no namer.
If Hero worked in PvT alot better, he would be a force to reckon with
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
Its kind of true, look at hero and puma, neither are actually top Korean pros. The ONLY reason they are popular is that they are on non Korean Teams who can afford to send them to tournaments that the actually good players aren't at.
Hero have the most revolutionizing PvZ, its unfair to call him a no namer.
If Hero worked in PvT alot better, he would be a force to reckon with
In the GSL, Hero has a 44% win rate in PvZ.
I feel like you have to scale down a bit with Protoss:
MC's "good" at PvT, yet only has a 57% win-rate in Korea for the MU. JYP's PvZ is quite a bit better compared to HerO's, though it's admittedly a bit inflated from the Weeklies and such.
Mostly, I think you have to scale down overall for Protoss. Not necessarily a balance whine, but keep in mind that MC has the highest Protoss win-ratio and he's hovering at 60-61% while the top-players of other races have 63%+ win-rates. And not just one but quite a few.
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
Its kind of true, look at hero and puma, neither are actually top Korean pros. The ONLY reason they are popular is that they are on non Korean Teams who can afford to send them to tournaments that the actually good players aren't at.
Hero have the most revolutionizing PvZ, its unfair to call him a no namer.
If Hero worked in PvT alot better, he would be a force to reckon with
On January 18 2012 11:17 red4ce wrote: Good move by both players. Dragon was a SlayerS in name only since he didn't live at the house and never played for them in teamleagues. Sure he benefited from being on SlayerS initially because otherwise nobody would have watched his stream but at this point he needs to try other options if he's to grow as a player. As far as Golden goes people are overrating the SlayerS effect. It's the place to go if you're terran, but Boxer, Cella and co. have yet to develop a top zerg (Coca doesn't count since he was already good when he was on Zenex). Better to be a big fish in a small pond than remain as the 4th string zerg on SlayerS.
Actually he played in the IPL TAC for them. There is a vod on youtube
To the ppl saying that these guys are just after big $ abroad: Do you know what its like living in a team house and being in the bottom of the status ladder? Do you have any idea how much they make, if anything besides house and food? Stop acting like players like golden and dragon make tons of cash and lives in some damn paradise.
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
Its kind of true, look at hero and puma, neither are actually top Korean pros. The ONLY reason they are popular is that they are on non Korean Teams who can afford to send them to tournaments that the actually good players aren't at.
Hero have the most revolutionizing PvZ, its unfair to call him a no namer.
If Hero worked in PvT alot better, he would be a force to reckon with
I must say, most players that left a korean team to join an international team have yet to be picked up. High demands plus little results dont really help their case that much.
It is sad to say, with players like sangho still teamless, these 2 guys dont really stand much of a chance. GL regardless.
I personally met SlayerSGolden in a tournament once and he handily beat me (although I'm a mid/high master player so it means nothing). From hours of watching Dragon's stream I can tell you he's an amazing guy probably a joy to be a teammate with. Goodluck to them both
This thread was not supposed to have so many action around it , but players salaries are always something that people try to know.
I think that salaries in the line of 1k / 1,5k per month is very good for a SC2 player , prize money is where the real bucks are and with that comes higher salaries. i think SC2 has a growth problem because to be a follower of the professional scene means you also either play or played Starcraft , so it has limited number of viewers and only the best players are worshiped like they were Michael Jordan . Then there is the community that tries to "kill" everyone who tries to have an opinion and is on lesser leagues than them ( bronze , silver , gold ,plat ) , so its hard for new players to get along and get excited with the game and the scene. Blizzard tried to make the game more friendly because of that i think but they could have done a much much much more better job advertising it ( like WoW ) . I really hope the best for e-sports and SC2 , sc2 is the E-sport nothing really compares to this, its actually required to be super sharp , smart to play professionally and to devote your life to it , if it fails e-sports fails..
Sorry if i hurt someone feelings but this is just my opinion.
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Hm i don't think it is confidential :/
If no NDA, then it's fine !
i said inappropriate. Not illegal. Would you hire someone who you know will release your trade secrets publicly? Its how you get blackballed in industries - happens regularly.
But isn't there a problem if no one talks about their salaries? How to expect how much you can ask for if no one knows how much the actual salarys are.(i mean in terms of pro's searching a new team)
On January 18 2012 22:16 KristofferAG wrote: Why would you ever leave SlayerS
I won't speak on Golden, but for Dragon, he 1) doesn't live at the house 2) doesn't compete in tournaments 3) has a day job he presumably likes 4) wants the game to be a hobby again
It seems like a reasonable thing. Besides, I could be remembering wrong, but I think the reason Dragon joined SlayerS in the first place was because he was one of the only practice partners BoxeR could get before the team formed.
In almost every industry there is a salary quote or expectation yet the shady people in the "esports" community try to hide such information. Calling it a "trade secret" makes it look even shadier to me. Whats the big deal if the community knows how much pro gamers make?
Salaries are released in just about every single sport, so the fact that people want this to be an "esport" yet hide all the inside information are the true ones being "inappropriate" what are you scared of?
Obviously it seems that some people have something to lose by releasing such information.
people are saying the wages are low, but if you actually win you do get a lot. This is more like tennis, the wage is a bonus, + you get to live in the team house and eat there as well.
There is no point of being pro gamer if you do not get far in any tournaments is there? Why are you pro then? There are so many tournaments, and if you do not win a few, a small wage is good enough tbh. Or else anyone can become a 'progamer star' and earn loads lol?
On January 18 2012 23:01 tapk69 wrote: This thread was not supposed to have so many action around it , but players salaries are always something that people try to know.
I think that salaries in the line of 1k / 1,5k per month is very good for a SC2 player , prize money is where the real bucks are and with that comes higher salaries. i think SC2 has a growth problem because to be a follower of the professional scene means you also either play or played Starcraft , so it has limited number of viewers and only the best players are worshiped like they were Michael Jordan . Then there is the community that tries to "kill" everyone who tries to have an opinion and is on lesser leagues than them ( bronze , silver , gold ,plat ) , so its hard for new players to get along and get excited with the game and the scene. Blizzard tried to make the game more friendly because of that i think but they could have done a much much much more better job advertising it ( like WoW ) . I really hope the best for e-sports and SC2 , sc2 is the E-sport nothing really compares to this, its actually required to be super sharp , smart to play professionally and to devote your life to it , if it fails e-sports fails..
Sorry if i hurt someone feelings but this is just my opinion.
I totally agree.
I also believe many people think that becoming progamer is easy, but they have to play for long hours, and not just mess around when playing either like when on ladder. There is a lot of competition, and you really need a tournament wins to make money and become an actual star.
On January 18 2012 23:01 tapk69 wrote: This thread was not supposed to have so many action around it , but players salaries are always something that people try to know.
I think that salaries in the line of 1k / 1,5k per month is very good for a SC2 player , prize money is where the real bucks are and with that comes higher salaries. i think SC2 has a growth problem because to be a follower of the professional scene means you also either play or played Starcraft , so it has limited number of viewers and only the best players are worshiped like they were Michael Jordan . Then there is the community that tries to "kill" everyone who tries to have an opinion and is on lesser leagues than them ( bronze , silver , gold ,plat ) , so its hard for new players to get along and get excited with the game and the scene. Blizzard tried to make the game more friendly because of that i think but they could have done a much much much more better job advertising it ( like WoW ) . I really hope the best for e-sports and SC2 , sc2 is the E-sport nothing really compares to this, its actually required to be super sharp , smart to play professionally and to devote your life to it , if it fails e-sports fails..
Sorry if i hurt someone feelings but this is just my opinion.
I totally agree.
I also believe many people think that becoming progamer is easy, but they have to play for long hours, and not just mess around when playing either like when on ladder. There is a lot of competition, and you really need a tournament wins to make money and become an actual star.
I think if 1k a month becomes a standard salary then e-sports is doomed to fail. Have any of you ever tried to make it on your own off 12k a year? You can talk all you want about tourney winnings making up some difference but the reported stats on that tell a different tale. IMO it is completely unreasonable to expect somebody to focus their entire energy on a game when not placing in the money for a weekly tournament means no food.
As of right now tournaments/teams are not providing for the greater community at all. Youtube and streaming sites on the other hand...
As is the starcraft community is less e-sports and more "lets play". A real living salary with benefits becoming the standard for excellence would change everything.
On January 19 2012 02:05 Velocirapture wrote: I think if 1k a month becomes a standard salary then e-sports is doomed to fail. Have any of you ever tried to make it on your own off 12k a year? You can talk all you want about tourney winnings making up some difference but the reported stats on that tell a different tale. IMO it is completely unreasonable to expect somebody to focus their entire energy on a game when not placing in the money for a weekly tournament means no food.
As of right now tournaments/teams are not providing for the greater community at all. Youtube and streaming sites on the other hand...
As is the starcraft community is less e-sports and more "lets play". A real living salary with benefits becoming the standard for excellence would change everything.
12k a year with or without a team house? If it's with the team house, then no travel, house, or food expenses? Hell yeah I'd take that if I was still an 18-21 year old. That's at least minimum wage level in the US, and the team houses look a helluva lot nicer than some of the places I've lived.
I've lived on 12k a year, and it ain't easy, but it's doable. If you're fresh out of high school doing something you love, then the money shouldn't make that much of a difference.
Just read a post Golden made over at playxp site, basically saying farewell to all slayers members. Very good read. Hope someone translates it for everyone to see (it's 2:20am here and I'm going to bed).
must confess all these " i leave my team to look for a forigner team really make me feel that sc2 is doing realy poorly in Korea, i might be completely off but would love to get some more insight as to how the korean scene looks both in regards to sponsorships and how well the public enjoy the game to me it kinda feels like we get this glass window of everything beeing all good but with all these players leaving the team and alot of the korean teams not having strickt contracts with players ie some of the problems eg's had with recruiting players etc. taht it just isent as succsess ful in korea as we would like to think.
anyway its 2 extreamly solid players that pretty much any none korean team would benefit from having on their team :-)
Dragon is a fuckin big time hacker/cheater. I don't know why Boxer even let him on Slayers. He was accused of map hacking, stream cheating, and match fixing - and didn't deny any of the three accusations. Check his liquipedia article.
On January 16 2012 16:35 Seeker wrote: Oh come on...... why would anyone in their right mind leave SlayerS!!! >:[
None the less....
GOOD LUCK GOLDEN!!!
LighT or Liquid should pick him up :D
Seems like many Koreans have illusions of grandeur on how much they are worth to foreign teams and leave because of that.
I hope this is not the case here and he just wants to be part of the foreign scene, but who knows.
Its kind of true, look at hero and puma, neither are actually top Korean pros. The ONLY reason they are popular is that they are on non Korean Teams who can afford to send them to tournaments that the actually good players aren't at.
Hero have the most revolutionizing PvZ, its unfair to call him a no namer.
If Hero worked in PvT alot better, he would be a force to reckon with
if your talking about the gsl win rate then you would have to filter out some of the miscellaneous cups and wcg then his win rate is actually at 60% not 44% in PvZ
I don't agree with people generalizing korean players of being overconfident and greedy when they move to foreign teams. Sometimes, they payoff of staying isn't worth it. I had a short chat with rainbow a while back, and while he was content with ST, he also wanted to just get outta the country and get a different scenery. A lot of koreans actually just want to experience the world out there, despite making their living playing games into the odd hours in some less than ideal living conditions.
If you love the game and plan to be the best no matter what, it's probably beneficial to stay within korean teams, but there's just so much more to life than that. But if you're not top tier and have some other ambitions in life that aren't only starcraft, what's so bad about moving to a foreign team and seeing if you can command some extra money while doing it?
I work in a technical field. I know what I'm worth, but I also know what others are getting paid. This makes my worth change fairly often (usually upwards), and if the right opportunity comes (money, type of work, etc), I will certainly explore my options. No different from your average guy looking to make the most out of a situation. Has less to do with being greedy and cocky. It's a business decision one must make in life everyday
On January 19 2012 02:05 Velocirapture wrote: I think if 1k a month becomes a standard salary then e-sports is doomed to fail. Have any of you ever tried to make it on your own off 12k a year? You can talk all you want about tourney winnings making up some difference but the reported stats on that tell a different tale. IMO it is completely unreasonable to expect somebody to focus their entire energy on a game when not placing in the money for a weekly tournament means no food.
As of right now tournaments/teams are not providing for the greater community at all. Youtube and streaming sites on the other hand...
As is the starcraft community is less e-sports and more "lets play". A real living salary with benefits becoming the standard for excellence would change everything.
12k a year with or without a team house? If it's with the team house, then no travel, house, or food expenses? Hell yeah I'd take that if I was still an 18-21 year old. That's at least minimum wage level in the US, and the team houses look a helluva lot nicer than some of the places I've lived.
I've lived on 12k a year, and it ain't easy, but it's doable. If you're fresh out of high school doing something you love, then the money shouldn't make that much of a difference.
I have no idea what's a good lifeplan in the US, but at least in Europe, I rather study and work for 60K US$ starting salary, then waste my precious years between 18 and 25 playing StarCraft2 for a minimum wage. Honestly: This timespan often decides how the rest of your life will pan out, so either you're a made man when done (like some football players) or you rather focus on getting the skills for a good job.
12k a year with or without a team house? If it's with the team house, then no travel, house, or food expenses? Hell yeah I'd take that if I was still an 18-21 year old. That's at least minimum wage level in the US, and the team houses look a helluva lot nicer than some of the places I've lived.
I've lived on 12k a year, and it ain't easy, but it's doable. If you're fresh out of high school doing something you love, then the money shouldn't make that much of a difference.
I have no idea what's a good lifeplan in the US, but at least in Europe, I rather study and work for 60K US$ starting salary, then waste my precious years between 18 and 25 playing StarCraft2 for a minimum wage. Honestly: This timespan often decides how the rest of your life will pan out, so either you're a made man when done (like some football players) or you rather focus on getting the skills for a good job.
I don't know how it is internationally, but in the US it's not terribly difficult to go back to school later in life. Heck, I had a professor once that recommended everyone under the age of 22 to drop out of college and do something else for a while. If you're good enough to warrant any kind of salary, you're probably good enough to get at least a few tournament trips funded. I think the experience of travelling and competing is worth more than the 5 years extra it'd take to get into a career.
As for 60k starting salary, I'd be willing to bet that you'd be in teh minority. I've been out of school 5 years and that's still significantly more than my salary. Some of us leave school with a PhD in medicine, some leave with a degree in art history.
12k a year with or without a team house? If it's with the team house, then no travel, house, or food expenses? Hell yeah I'd take that if I was still an 18-21 year old. That's at least minimum wage level in the US, and the team houses look a helluva lot nicer than some of the places I've lived.
I've lived on 12k a year, and it ain't easy, but it's doable. If you're fresh out of high school doing something you love, then the money shouldn't make that much of a difference.
I have no idea what's a good lifeplan in the US, but at least in Europe, I rather study and work for 60K US$ starting salary, then waste my precious years between 18 and 25 playing StarCraft2 for a minimum wage. Honestly: This timespan often decides how the rest of your life will pan out, so either you're a made man when done (like some football players) or you rather focus on getting the skills for a good job.
I don't know how it is internationally, but in the US it's not terribly difficult to go back to school later in life. Heck, I had a professor once that recommended everyone under the age of 22 to drop out of college and do something else for a while. If you're good enough to warrant any kind of salary, you're probably good enough to get at least a few tournament trips funded. I think the experience of travelling and competing is worth more than the 5 years extra it'd take to get into a career.
As for 60k starting salary, I'd be willing to bet that you'd be in teh minority. I've been out of school 5 years and that's still significantly more than my salary. Some of us leave school with a PhD in medicine, some leave with a degree in art history.
Well it's getting off topic, and I love SC like any TL forumer, but no employer will ever see it as a bonus, if you tell him: "Well I spend my 5 years mostly practicing a video game. I made some travels, but instead of seeing much of the country, I stared into a monitor." Just imagine telling even a mediocre golf/football/basketball professional player he is going to earn 12K a year.... He would be laughing all day for sure!
I think salaries for top players (and that would be code S players) should be around 100K - 200K US$/year to make it a worthwhile pasttime. (about the amount Wayne Rooney earns in 5days)
Right now it's a bit sad, if good players are having to fight for getting even a minimum wage. Assuming those are skilled, dedicated people, I think they are wasting their fortunes.
12k a year with or without a team house? If it's with the team house, then no travel, house, or food expenses? Hell yeah I'd take that if I was still an 18-21 year old. That's at least minimum wage level in the US, and the team houses look a helluva lot nicer than some of the places I've lived.
I've lived on 12k a year, and it ain't easy, but it's doable. If you're fresh out of high school doing something you love, then the money shouldn't make that much of a difference.
I have no idea what's a good lifeplan in the US, but at least in Europe, I rather study and work for 60K US$ starting salary, then waste my precious years between 18 and 25 playing StarCraft2 for a minimum wage. Honestly: This timespan often decides how the rest of your life will pan out, so either you're a made man when done (like some football players) or you rather focus on getting the skills for a good job.
I don't know how it is internationally, but in the US it's not terribly difficult to go back to school later in life. Heck, I had a professor once that recommended everyone under the age of 22 to drop out of college and do something else for a while. If you're good enough to warrant any kind of salary, you're probably good enough to get at least a few tournament trips funded. I think the experience of travelling and competing is worth more than the 5 years extra it'd take to get into a career.
As for 60k starting salary, I'd be willing to bet that you'd be in teh minority. I've been out of school 5 years and that's still significantly more than my salary. Some of us leave school with a PhD in medicine, some leave with a degree in art history.
Well it's getting off topic, and I love SC like any TL forumer, but no employer will ever see it as a bonus, if you tell him: "Well I spend my 5 years mostly practicing a video game. I made some travels, but instead of seeing much of the country, I stared into a monitor." Just imagine telling even a mediocre golf/football/basketball professional player he is going to earn 12K a year.... He would be laughing all day for sure!
I think salaries for top players (and that would be code S players) should be around 100K - 200K US$/year to make it a worthwhile pasttime. (about the amount Wayne Rooney earns in 5days)
Right now it's a bit sad, if good players are having to fight for getting even a minimum wage. Assuming those are skilled, dedicated people, I think they are wasting their fortunes.
How about "I have the work ethic to commit to a job 10-16 hours a day 5-7 days per week without question or complaint. And while i was doing that, I spent every second learning how to improve and approach objectives and obstacles with the utmost scrutiny and became one of the best in the world because of that."
On January 19 2012 02:58 paintfive wrote: Dragon is a fuckin big time hacker/cheater. I don't know why Boxer even let him on Slayers. He was accused of map hacking, stream cheating, and match fixing - and didn't deny any of the three accusations. Check his liquipedia article.
If I were you, I'd more carefully word my posts without sounding like someone who can't read.
he then replied that "he was sorry for what he had done" but didn't go into detail which parts of the allegations were true.
For all you know, he could have ONLY cheated by viewing the stream of another.
On January 16 2012 16:39 Azzur wrote: Many koreans think that there are riches abroad but he is a no-name korean and will be hard pressed to get any decent money. I'm sure a foreign team will pick him up but the amount they will be willing to pay will be far below what he's expecting.
No name? Both of these players are pretty well known... They maybe asking a little much for their salary and I cannot fathom why anyone would leave a team with as much notority as Slayers, but best of luck to them and their journey.
12k a year with or without a team house? If it's with the team house, then no travel, house, or food expenses? Hell yeah I'd take that if I was still an 18-21 year old. That's at least minimum wage level in the US, and the team houses look a helluva lot nicer than some of the places I've lived.
I've lived on 12k a year, and it ain't easy, but it's doable. If you're fresh out of high school doing something you love, then the money shouldn't make that much of a difference.
I have no idea what's a good lifeplan in the US, but at least in Europe, I rather study and work for 60K US$ starting salary, then waste my precious years between 18 and 25 playing StarCraft2 for a minimum wage. Honestly: This timespan often decides how the rest of your life will pan out, so either you're a made man when done (like some football players) or you rather focus on getting the skills for a good job.
I don't know how it is internationally, but in the US it's not terribly difficult to go back to school later in life. Heck, I had a professor once that recommended everyone under the age of 22 to drop out of college and do something else for a while. If you're good enough to warrant any kind of salary, you're probably good enough to get at least a few tournament trips funded. I think the experience of travelling and competing is worth more than the 5 years extra it'd take to get into a career.
As for 60k starting salary, I'd be willing to bet that you'd be in teh minority. I've been out of school 5 years and that's still significantly more than my salary. Some of us leave school with a PhD in medicine, some leave with a degree in art history.
Well it's getting off topic, and I love SC like any TL forumer, but no employer will ever see it as a bonus, if you tell him: "Well I spend my 5 years mostly practicing a video game. I made some travels, but instead of seeing much of the country, I stared into a monitor." Just imagine telling even a mediocre golf/football/basketball professional player he is going to earn 12K a year.... He would be laughing all day for sure!
I think salaries for top players (and that would be code S players) should be around 100K - 200K US$/year to make it a worthwhile pasttime. (about the amount Wayne Rooney earns in 5days)
Right now it's a bit sad, if good players are having to fight for getting even a minimum wage. Assuming those are skilled, dedicated people, I think they are wasting their fortunes.
Depends how your frame your resume and how you market yourself in the interview and what you put into your gaming experience. I imagine a programer resume could look like something like this:
I worked a 12 to 16 hour a day as a professional gamer which included developing strategies and algorithms to boost our teams overall winnings while improving my own game play. During my tenure at Slayer I coordinated in-house practice schedules and helped out with traveling logistics for my team. My experience helped me pickup a secondary language as well as the marketing skills needed to increase my teams revenue streams via internet marketing and cultivating team branding via active fan based outreach.
Or you can be a total turd and just say "I played all day and didn't do much else" because you squandered any opportunity for growth because you couldn't see any potential outside the boundaries of your monitor while being a progamer.
Life is what you make of it. Richard Branson started out selling records from the trunk of his car - now he is a billionaire with his own island. The world is full of success stories from the most unlikely of starts and backgrounds.
I understand that Korean progamers know that they have an advantage in going international, but I sincerely hope its for the interest of bringing a closer relationship between the Korean and Foreign community, instead of their selfish greed taking over their lives to make "big bucks" off of foreign teams... Makes me so sad to think that all these Korean progamers are trying to sell themselves off for the money. Game isn't all that makes a player, it's also the personality, which is really hard to find in the Korean community :/
On January 18 2012 22:16 KristofferAG wrote: Why would you ever leave SlayerS
I won't speak on Golden, but for Dragon, he 1) doesn't live at the house 2) doesn't compete in tournaments 3) has a day job he presumably likes 4) wants the game to be a hobby again
It seems like a reasonable thing. Besides, I could be remembering wrong, but I think the reason Dragon joined SlayerS in the first place was because he was one of the only practice partners BoxeR could get before the team formed.
Dragon has also stated that he will not join any team, play in any major tournaments, matches, etc in the future as a result of his controversies and scandals(?). He is an awesome entertainer no doubt, but I will have my suspicions on him if he does indeed rejoin a team.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power.
Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is.....
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
Wow, actually I believe the complete opposite. Revealing player salaries helps grow esports. Hiding salaries only hurt players in contract negotiations. Players should be paid according to their actual market value, not how good they can negotiate with a manager who has a huuuuuge information advantage.
I can understand Fnatic getting pissed at Xeris if he's revealing confidential information. But I don't understand why TL staff is getting pissed at Xeris for helping players. So what if TL knows Fnatic's price point. That's GOOD, he should go to the team that can pay the best market price. It's better than TL not knowing Fnatic's price point and maybe over/under bidding for the player.
On January 19 2012 12:51 EienShinwa wrote: I understand that Korean progamers know that they have an advantage in going international, but I sincerely hope its for the interest of bringing a closer relationship between the Korean and Foreign community, instead of their selfish greed taking over their lives to make "big bucks" off of foreign teams... Makes me so sad to think that all these Korean progamers are trying to sell themselves off for the money. Game isn't all that makes a player, it's also the personality, which is really hard to find in the Korean community :/
On January 18 2012 22:16 KristofferAG wrote: Why would you ever leave SlayerS
I won't speak on Golden, but for Dragon, he 1) doesn't live at the house 2) doesn't compete in tournaments 3) has a day job he presumably likes 4) wants the game to be a hobby again
It seems like a reasonable thing. Besides, I could be remembering wrong, but I think the reason Dragon joined SlayerS in the first place was because he was one of the only practice partners BoxeR could get before the team formed.
Dragon has also stated that he will not join any team, play in any major tournaments, matches, etc in the future as a result of his controversies and scandals(?). He is an awesome entertainer no doubt, but I will have my suspicions on him if he does indeed rejoin a team.
Just wondering, but when exactly did he mention this? I remember about a year ago when he was accused of map hacking and all that, and he said that he wouldn't "ever dream of becoming a pro gamer," but he managed to make a comeback and play in the GSL. I'm just wondering if that's what you're talking about, or if he recently said this?
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power.
Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is.....
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
So its ok to do in real sports but not eSports? I can list off a whole list of players through many sports who have insanely high salaries an all the teams in their league/world know those salaries. SO those teams know they'll never get those players like you'll never see a LeBron James playing for the Charlette Bobcats or anywhere else that can't afford his price tag which is his salary. SO the Bobcats are not a threat to getting him for any team that can afford him. Your argument is almost baseless cause it in no way is knowing the salary of a player "killing eSports" since all other sports still thrive yet people know the players salaries. I would really like to know how you got this idea into your head cause it's wrong.
As evidence: Koby Bryant: 53million dollars LeBron James: 48 million dollars David Beckham: 43 million dollars Ronaldo: 38 million dollars Alex Rodriguez: 35 million dollars
These are just a few examples but people know these figures, teams know these figures yet those sports still thrive, grow, and continue to prosper. So I just can't even begin to see how your argument makes any sense at all.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power.
Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is.....
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
So its ok to do in real sports but not eSports? I can list off a whole list of players through many sports who have insanely high salaries an all the teams in their league/world know those salaries. SO those teams know they'll never get those players like you'll never see a LeBron James playing for the Charlette Bobcats or anywhere else that can't afford his price tag which is his salary. SO the Bobcats are not a threat to getting him for any team that can afford him. Your argument is almost baseless cause it in no way is knowing the salary of a player "killing eSports" since all other sports still thrive yet people know the players salaries. I would really like to know how you got this idea into your head cause it's wrong.
As evidence: Koby Bryant: 53million dollars LeBron James: 48 million dollars David Beckham: 43 million dollars Ronaldo: 38 million dollars Alex Rodriguez: 35 million dollars
These are just a few examples but people know these figures, teams know these figures yet those sports still thrive, grow, and continue to prosper. So I just can't even begin to see how your argument makes any sense at all.
Others have said this better than me earlier in this thread, but from how I understand it, knowing how much another team is willing/not willing to offer a player hurts that player's bargaining power. Let's say Team A approaches Player X and offers him $1000, but he declines and asks for 1500. Team A isn't willing and nothing happens. Team B that was interested in Player X and was willing to pay $2000 finds out Player X only asked for 1500 from Team A and now will offer 1500 to him instead. Player X settles for a lower amount and loses the opportunity to have the higher salary without his knowledge (I definitely wouldn't expect Team B to tell them they were going to pay him more but went lower because they found out about Team A's negotiations with him).
Also, somebody reposted that number from Xeris on PlayXP [the Korean TL in a way] and Sleep said that it wasn't correct. Indirectly, it hurt his reputation to have that number quoted regardless of it being right or wrong. Disregarding everything else, I think we as fans should worry about player rights above all else.
On January 19 2012 15:03 Catatonic wrote: So its ok to do in real sports but not eSports? I can list off a whole list of players through many sports who have insanely high salaries an all the teams in their league/world know those salaries. SO those teams know they'll never get those players like you'll never see a LeBron James playing for the Charlette Bobcats or anywhere else that can't afford his price tag which is his salary. SO the Bobcats are not a threat to getting him for any team that can afford him. Your argument is almost baseless cause it in no way is knowing the salary of a player "killing eSports" since all other sports still thrive yet people know the players salaries. I would really like to know how you got this idea into your head cause it's wrong.
It's basically a prisoner's dilemma problem. If I may repost...
On January 17 2012 16:38 acker wrote: I'm guessing it's game theory and economics.
(1) If only one team reveals and the other teams don't, the other teams get a huge advantage at drafting.
(2) If all teams don't reveal, asymmetric information happens. E-sports is less efficient, but no one wants to be the idiot in (1).
(3) If all teams reveal, free markets happen. E-sports is more efficient.
But (3) isn't feasible. So (2).
So yeah. Other sports have the ability to enforce salary reporting from all teams and players. But there's no organization in SC2 that could possibly do this.
You can't really compare for example football to the eSports, cause there are 10000% more people willing to pay for the football. It's a bit like comparing some unknown artist to the big one. Just some of ppl want to pay for the unkown and nearly everyone for the mega star.
On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote: you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power.
Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is.....
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote: I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
So its ok to do in real sports but not eSports? I can list off a whole list of players through many sports who have insanely high salaries an all the teams in their league/world know those salaries. SO those teams know they'll never get those players like you'll never see a LeBron James playing for the Charlette Bobcats or anywhere else that can't afford his price tag which is his salary. SO the Bobcats are not a threat to getting him for any team that can afford him. Your argument is almost baseless cause it in no way is knowing the salary of a player "killing eSports" since all other sports still thrive yet people know the players salaries. I would really like to know how you got this idea into your head cause it's wrong.
As evidence: Koby Bryant: 53million dollars LeBron James: 48 million dollars David Beckham: 43 million dollars Ronaldo: 38 million dollars Alex Rodriguez: 35 million dollars
These are just a few examples but people know these figures, teams know these figures yet those sports still thrive, grow, and continue to prosper. So I just can't even begin to see how your argument makes any sense at all.
Others have said this better than me earlier in this thread, but from how I understand it, knowing how much another team is willing/not willing to offer a player hurts that player's bargaining power. Let's say Team A approaches Player X and offers him $1000, but he declines and asks for 1500. Team A isn't willing and nothing happens. Team B that was interested in Player X and was willing to pay $2000 finds out Player X only asked for 1500 from Team A and now will offer 1500 to him instead. Player X settles for a lower amount and loses the opportunity to have the higher salary without his knowledge (I definitely wouldn't expect Team B to tell them they were going to pay him more but went lower because they found out about Team A's negotiations with him).
Also, somebody reposted that number from Xeris on PlayXP [the Korean TL in a way] and Sleep said that it wasn't correct. Indirectly, it hurt his reputation to have that number quoted regardless of it being right or wrong. Disregarding everything else, I think we as fans should worry about player rights above all else.
um, at the end the player got the 1500 he asked for, and I highly doubt organizations will overpaid their players given how much information they have...
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Lol, seriously? He didn't even release any information, he said it was estimates. Besides that, transparency and exchange of information.always benefits the greater good.
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T
1.5k/3k a month? a day? what?
And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated?
I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Lol, seriously? He didn't even release any information, he said it was estimates. Besides that, transparency and exchange of information.always benefits the greater good.
The next time you're seeking employment, every interviewer who turns you down will post how much he thinks you're actually worth on Facebook and LinkedIn for every other potential employer to see.
I'm sure you'll be pissed that people are stomping on your future, but "transparency and exchange of information aways benefits the greater good", right?
Player salaries may eventually become public knowledge. Anything that happens during contract talks, however, should remain absolutely confidential, for the good of people seeking signings, and the teams looking to sign players.
I wouldn't call him a "no-name Korean", he was played quite a bit in the IPL Team Arena and did quite the job.
Im sure he meant hes a no-name in the korean scene. Doing well in the IPL doesn't mean much since you're playing pretty much against all foreigners. Many Koreans who cant even make it into Code A can win foreign tournaments.
Can't really see any top-tier foreign teams picking up Dragon. Golden's a different story, great player and sounds like a fantastic guy for a team-oriented atmosphere. Hope a team like fnatic or mTw picks him up.