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On January 19 2012 06:41 testthewest wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 05:59 justalex wrote:On January 19 2012 05:09 testthewest wrote:On January 19 2012 02:22 justalex wrote:
12k a year with or without a team house? If it's with the team house, then no travel, house, or food expenses? Hell yeah I'd take that if I was still an 18-21 year old. That's at least minimum wage level in the US, and the team houses look a helluva lot nicer than some of the places I've lived.
I've lived on 12k a year, and it ain't easy, but it's doable. If you're fresh out of high school doing something you love, then the money shouldn't make that much of a difference. I have no idea what's a good lifeplan in the US, but at least in Europe, I rather study and work for 60K US$ starting salary, then waste my precious years between 18 and 25 playing StarCraft2 for a minimum wage. Honestly: This timespan often decides how the rest of your life will pan out, so either you're a made man when done (like some football players) or you rather focus on getting the skills for a good job. I don't know how it is internationally, but in the US it's not terribly difficult to go back to school later in life. Heck, I had a professor once that recommended everyone under the age of 22 to drop out of college and do something else for a while. If you're good enough to warrant any kind of salary, you're probably good enough to get at least a few tournament trips funded. I think the experience of travelling and competing is worth more than the 5 years extra it'd take to get into a career. As for 60k starting salary, I'd be willing to bet that you'd be in teh minority. I've been out of school 5 years and that's still significantly more than my salary. Some of us leave school with a PhD in medicine, some leave with a degree in art history. Well it's getting off topic, and I love SC like any TL forumer, but no employer will ever see it as a bonus, if you tell him: "Well I spend my 5 years mostly practicing a video game. I made some travels, but instead of seeing much of the country, I stared into a monitor." Just imagine telling even a mediocre golf/football/basketball professional player he is going to earn 12K a year.... He would be laughing all day for sure! I think salaries for top players (and that would be code S players) should be around 100K - 200K US$/year to make it a worthwhile pasttime. (about the amount Wayne Rooney earns in 5days) Right now it's a bit sad, if good players are having to fight for getting even a minimum wage. Assuming those are skilled, dedicated people, I think they are wasting their fortunes.
Depends how your frame your resume and how you market yourself in the interview and what you put into your gaming experience. I imagine a programer resume could look like something like this:
I worked a 12 to 16 hour a day as a professional gamer which included developing strategies and algorithms to boost our teams overall winnings while improving my own game play. During my tenure at Slayer I coordinated in-house practice schedules and helped out with traveling logistics for my team. My experience helped me pickup a secondary language as well as the marketing skills needed to increase my teams revenue streams via internet marketing and cultivating team branding via active fan based outreach.
Or you can be a total turd and just say "I played all day and didn't do much else" because you squandered any opportunity for growth because you couldn't see any potential outside the boundaries of your monitor while being a progamer.
Life is what you make of it. Richard Branson started out selling records from the trunk of his car - now he is a billionaire with his own island. The world is full of success stories from the most unlikely of starts and backgrounds.
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I understand that Korean progamers know that they have an advantage in going international, but I sincerely hope its for the interest of bringing a closer relationship between the Korean and Foreign community, instead of their selfish greed taking over their lives to make "big bucks" off of foreign teams... Makes me so sad to think that all these Korean progamers are trying to sell themselves off for the money. Game isn't all that makes a player, it's also the personality, which is really hard to find in the Korean community :/
On January 19 2012 00:51 justalex wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 22:16 KristofferAG wrote:Why would you ever leave SlayerS  I won't speak on Golden, but for Dragon, he 1) doesn't live at the house 2) doesn't compete in tournaments 3) has a day job he presumably likes 4) wants the game to be a hobby again It seems like a reasonable thing. Besides, I could be remembering wrong, but I think the reason Dragon joined SlayerS in the first place was because he was one of the only practice partners BoxeR could get before the team formed.
Dragon has also stated that he will not join any team, play in any major tournaments, matches, etc in the future as a result of his controversies and scandals(?). He is an awesome entertainer no doubt, but I will have my suspicions on him if he does indeed rejoin a team.
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On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power. Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is..... Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k . This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
Wow, actually I believe the complete opposite. Revealing player salaries helps grow esports. Hiding salaries only hurt players in contract negotiations. Players should be paid according to their actual market value, not how good they can negotiate with a manager who has a huuuuuge information advantage.
I can understand Fnatic getting pissed at Xeris if he's revealing confidential information. But I don't understand why TL staff is getting pissed at Xeris for helping players. So what if TL knows Fnatic's price point. That's GOOD, he should go to the team that can pay the best market price. It's better than TL not knowing Fnatic's price point and maybe over/under bidding for the player.
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On January 19 2012 12:51 EienShinwa wrote:I understand that Korean progamers know that they have an advantage in going international, but I sincerely hope its for the interest of bringing a closer relationship between the Korean and Foreign community, instead of their selfish greed taking over their lives to make "big bucks" off of foreign teams... Makes me so sad to think that all these Korean progamers are trying to sell themselves off for the money. Game isn't all that makes a player, it's also the personality, which is really hard to find in the Korean community :/ Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 00:51 justalex wrote:On January 18 2012 22:16 KristofferAG wrote:Why would you ever leave SlayerS I won't speak on Golden, but for Dragon, he 1) doesn't live at the house 2) doesn't compete in tournaments 3) has a day job he presumably likes 4) wants the game to be a hobby again It seems like a reasonable thing. Besides, I could be remembering wrong, but I think the reason Dragon joined SlayerS in the first place was because he was one of the only practice partners BoxeR could get before the team formed. Dragon has also stated that he will not join any team, play in any major tournaments, matches, etc in the future as a result of his controversies and scandals(?). He is an awesome entertainer no doubt, but I will have my suspicions on him if he does indeed rejoin a team.
Just wondering, but when exactly did he mention this? I remember about a year ago when he was accused of map hacking and all that, and he said that he wouldn't "ever dream of becoming a pro gamer," but he managed to make a comeback and play in the GSL. I'm just wondering if that's what you're talking about, or if he recently said this?
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On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power. Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is..... Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k . This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
So its ok to do in real sports but not eSports? I can list off a whole list of players through many sports who have insanely high salaries an all the teams in their league/world know those salaries. SO those teams know they'll never get those players like you'll never see a LeBron James playing for the Charlette Bobcats or anywhere else that can't afford his price tag which is his salary. SO the Bobcats are not a threat to getting him for any team that can afford him. Your argument is almost baseless cause it in no way is knowing the salary of a player "killing eSports" since all other sports still thrive yet people know the players salaries. I would really like to know how you got this idea into your head cause it's wrong.
As evidence:
Koby Bryant: 53million dollars
LeBron James: 48 million dollars
David Beckham: 43 million dollars
Ronaldo: 38 million dollars
Alex Rodriguez: 35 million dollars
These are just a few examples but people know these figures, teams know these figures yet those sports still thrive, grow, and continue to prosper. So I just can't even begin to see how your argument makes any sense at all.
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On January 19 2012 15:03 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power. Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is..... On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k . This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly. So its ok to do in real sports but not eSports? I can list off a whole list of players through many sports who have insanely high salaries an all the teams in their league/world know those salaries. SO those teams know they'll never get those players like you'll never see a LeBron James playing for the Charlette Bobcats or anywhere else that can't afford his price tag which is his salary. SO the Bobcats are not a threat to getting him for any team that can afford him. Your argument is almost baseless cause it in no way is knowing the salary of a player "killing eSports" since all other sports still thrive yet people know the players salaries. I would really like to know how you got this idea into your head cause it's wrong. As evidence: Koby Bryant: 53million dollars LeBron James: 48 million dollars David Beckham: 43 million dollars Ronaldo: 38 million dollars Alex Rodriguez: 35 million dollars These are just a few examples but people know these figures, teams know these figures yet those sports still thrive, grow, and continue to prosper. So I just can't even begin to see how your argument makes any sense at all.
Others have said this better than me earlier in this thread, but from how I understand it, knowing how much another team is willing/not willing to offer a player hurts that player's bargaining power. Let's say Team A approaches Player X and offers him $1000, but he declines and asks for 1500. Team A isn't willing and nothing happens. Team B that was interested in Player X and was willing to pay $2000 finds out Player X only asked for 1500 from Team A and now will offer 1500 to him instead. Player X settles for a lower amount and loses the opportunity to have the higher salary without his knowledge (I definitely wouldn't expect Team B to tell them they were going to pay him more but went lower because they found out about Team A's negotiations with him).
Also, somebody reposted that number from Xeris on PlayXP [the Korean TL in a way] and Sleep said that it wasn't correct. Indirectly, it hurt his reputation to have that number quoted regardless of it being right or wrong. Disregarding everything else, I think we as fans should worry about player rights above all else.
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On January 19 2012 15:03 Catatonic wrote:
So its ok to do in real sports but not eSports? I can list off a whole list of players through many sports who have insanely high salaries an all the teams in their league/world know those salaries. SO those teams know they'll never get those players like you'll never see a LeBron James playing for the Charlette Bobcats or anywhere else that can't afford his price tag which is his salary. SO the Bobcats are not a threat to getting him for any team that can afford him. Your argument is almost baseless cause it in no way is knowing the salary of a player "killing eSports" since all other sports still thrive yet people know the players salaries. I would really like to know how you got this idea into your head cause it's wrong.
It's basically a prisoner's dilemma problem. If I may repost...
On January 17 2012 16:38 acker wrote:
I'm guessing it's game theory and economics.
(1) If only one team reveals and the other teams don't, the other teams get a huge advantage at drafting.
(2) If all teams don't reveal, asymmetric information happens. E-sports is less efficient, but no one wants to be the idiot in (1).
(3) If all teams reveal, free markets happen. E-sports is more efficient.
But (3) isn't feasible. So (2).
So yeah. Other sports have the ability to enforce salary reporting from all teams and players. But there's no organization in SC2 that could possibly do this.
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You can't really compare for example football to the eSports, cause there are 10000% more people willing to pay for the football. It's a bit like comparing some unknown artist to the big one. Just some of ppl want to pay for the unkown and nearly everyone for the mega star.
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On January 19 2012 15:16 terialk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 15:03 Catatonic wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power. Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is..... On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k . This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly. So its ok to do in real sports but not eSports? I can list off a whole list of players through many sports who have insanely high salaries an all the teams in their league/world know those salaries. SO those teams know they'll never get those players like you'll never see a LeBron James playing for the Charlette Bobcats or anywhere else that can't afford his price tag which is his salary. SO the Bobcats are not a threat to getting him for any team that can afford him. Your argument is almost baseless cause it in no way is knowing the salary of a player "killing eSports" since all other sports still thrive yet people know the players salaries. I would really like to know how you got this idea into your head cause it's wrong. As evidence: Koby Bryant: 53million dollars LeBron James: 48 million dollars David Beckham: 43 million dollars Ronaldo: 38 million dollars Alex Rodriguez: 35 million dollars These are just a few examples but people know these figures, teams know these figures yet those sports still thrive, grow, and continue to prosper. So I just can't even begin to see how your argument makes any sense at all. Others have said this better than me earlier in this thread, but from how I understand it, knowing how much another team is willing/not willing to offer a player hurts that player's bargaining power. Let's say Team A approaches Player X and offers him $1000, but he declines and asks for 1500. Team A isn't willing and nothing happens. Team B that was interested in Player X and was willing to pay $2000 finds out Player X only asked for 1500 from Team A and now will offer 1500 to him instead. Player X settles for a lower amount and loses the opportunity to have the higher salary without his knowledge (I definitely wouldn't expect Team B to tell them they were going to pay him more but went lower because they found out about Team A's negotiations with him). Also, somebody reposted that number from Xeris on PlayXP [the Korean TL in a way] and Sleep said that it wasn't correct. Indirectly, it hurt his reputation to have that number quoted regardless of it being right or wrong. Disregarding everything else, I think we as fans should worry about player rights above all else.
um, at the end the player got the 1500 he asked for, and I highly doubt organizations will overpaid their players given how much information they have...
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On January 16 2012 16:58 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 16:51 StarMoon wrote:On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T 1.5k/3k a month? a day? what? And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated? I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo.
Lol, seriously? He didn't even release any information, he said it was estimates. Besides that, transparency and exchange of information.always benefits the greater good.
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On January 20 2012 09:06 epicdemic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 16:58 Kennigit wrote:On January 16 2012 16:51 StarMoon wrote:On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
So crazy -- its why almost all the Koreans who post about looking for foreign team, still haven't found one T_T 1.5k/3k a month? a day? what? And Kennigit's reaction, care to elaborate for those of us who are uninitiated? I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo. Lol, seriously? He didn't even release any information, he said it was estimates. Besides that, transparency and exchange of information.always benefits the greater good.
The next time you're seeking employment, every interviewer who turns you down will post how much he thinks you're actually worth on Facebook and LinkedIn for every other potential employer to see.
I'm sure you'll be pissed that people are stomping on your future, but "transparency and exchange of information aways benefits the greater good", right?
Player salaries may eventually become public knowledge. Anything that happens during contract talks, however, should remain absolutely confidential, for the good of people seeking signings, and the teams looking to sign players.
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On January 16 2012 16:40 Phobbers wrote:
I wouldn't call him a "no-name Korean", he was played quite a bit in the IPL Team Arena and did quite the job.
Im sure he meant hes a no-name in the korean scene. Doing well in the IPL doesn't mean much since you're playing pretty much against all foreigners. Many Koreans who cant even make it into Code A can win foreign tournaments.
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Can't really see any top-tier foreign teams picking up Dragon. Golden's a different story, great player and sounds like a fantastic guy for a team-oriented atmosphere. Hope a team like fnatic or mTw picks him up.
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dragon is owning the NA ladder. He got placed in diamond and like wins almost all hahaha. soon to be GM lol
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EPT
