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codesad
7 Posts
On January 17 2012 22:35 MetalSlug wrote: So Marines "hard counter" banelings now, really ? yeah it's kinda sad to see, basically a terran that can micro can just roflstomp you and there's not much you can do. i would say you have to add some infestors against a top player to prevent this from happening. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 17 2012 23:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If that's a serious question: 1. I guess the proper term for it is "soft counter", as banelings can do potential damage if the marines are mismicroed (it's not like marines can fly- yet- which would mean that banelings could never do damage against marines) 2. We've known about this since MKP came into the spotlight. You'd need to be really clever with banelings (like landmines) for them to be cost-effective against marines. 1. Marine splitting reducing the amount of damage you take from Banelings ≠ Marines countering Banelings. 2. This does not make much sense once again. I mean, you could argue that Banelings will never be cost-efficient against Marines because Banelings cost gas and Marines don't. Anyway, you have to consider the global picture, which is: against Terran or Protoss, Zergs are never supposed to trade evenly resource-wise (unless you catch the opponent unsieged / things like that), at least on tier2, so cost-efficiency strictly speaking does not mean much anyway. Things that truly matter are: did you reset his Tank count so he cannot push until he rebuilds it? Did you secure your fourth base and stall long enough so you can transition to Broodlords, hopefully with some advantage? Did you use your mobility to prevent him from taking his farther bases? etc. | ||
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gh0un
601 Posts
On January 18 2012 00:10 TheDwf wrote: 1. Marine splitting reducing the amount of damage you take from Banelings ≠ Marines countering Banelings. 2. This does not make much sense once again. I mean, you could argue that Banelings will never be cost-efficient against Marines because Banelings cost gas and Marines don't. Anyway, you have to consider the global picture, which is: against Terran or Protoss, Zergs are never supposed to trade evenly resource-wise (unless you catch the opponent unsieged / things like that), at least on tier2, so cost-efficiency strictly speaking does not mean much anyway. Things that truly matter are: did you reset his Tank count so he cannot push until he rebuilds it? Did you secure your fourth base and stall long enough so you can transition to Broodlords, hopefully with some advantage? Did you use your mobility to prevent him from taking his farther bases? etc. That was back when zerg had an economic advantage, enabling them to trade unefficiently. Terrans start to go heavy macro nowadays while keeping zerg down to the same amount of bases. They not only manage to keep up with economy, on some maps they are able to surpass them. With that in mind, they actually have to trade cost effectively otherwise they flat out lose, and thats exactly how many zvt unravel these days. | ||
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On January 17 2012 22:25 Harris1st wrote: Ha called it Idra played just so predicable, every game the same and his mutas did nothing This was not anywhere near code S worthy, and if he is playing a terran in code A he is out again Isn't ZvT supposed to be his best MU? | ||
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Alacast
United States205 Posts
All that being said, it seems that very good Terrans have figured out how to deal with it. Maybe it's time for someone to figure out a different composition-but it's certainly not going to be me. | ||
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Ziktomini
United Kingdom377 Posts
On January 18 2012 00:10 TheDwf wrote: 1. Marine splitting reducing the amount of damage you take from Banelings ≠ Marines countering Banelings. 2. This does not make much sense once again. I mean, you could argue that Banelings will never be cost-efficient against Marines because Banelings cost gas and Marines don't. Anyway, you have to consider the global picture, which is: against Terran or Protoss, Zergs are never supposed to trade evenly resource-wise (unless you catch the opponent unsieged / things like that), at least on tier2, so cost-efficiency strictly speaking does not mean much anyway. Things that truly matter are: did you reset his Tank count so he cannot push until he rebuilds it? Did you secure your fourth base and stall long enough so you can transition to Broodlords, hopefully with some advantage? Did you use your mobility to prevent him from taking his farther bases? etc. If marines costing trade efficiently doesn't mean they counter banelings then I do not know what does. The matter of fact is that almost everybody knows that alone marines vs banelings, the marine will win very easily, it doesn't take much micro to do that. However the pure act of making the terran split his marines is where the damage is done, as it means your other troops are taking less damage alone with the surface area of the marines being opened up for the lings to attack. Starcraft is not as simple as X counters Y, this can be seen many times in sc2. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
A 4-0 has nothing to do with balance. | ||
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walklightwhat
Australia752 Posts
On January 18 2012 00:46 Itsmedudeman wrote: Why does a balance discussion always happen when idra loses A 4-0 has nothing to do with balance. Fanboys always argue or whine when their favourite team or player loses. Pretending that is something unique to IdrA is pretty silly. | ||
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paic
France5 Posts
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Lavi
Bangladesh793 Posts
On January 18 2012 00:02 codesad wrote: yeah it's kinda sad to see, basically a terran that can micro can just roflstomp you and there's not much you can do. i would say you have to add some infestors against a top player to prevent this from happening. except teaja is not just "basically [any] terran" and if you seen the weekly you already know his bio control is at least good as MKP | ||
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On January 18 2012 00:51 walklightwhat wrote: Fanboys always argue or whine when their favourite team or player loses. Pretending that is something unique to IdrA is pretty silly. No idra actually is the only one. Otherwise we talk about what the player could have done better but balance is included with iddy | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On January 18 2012 00:46 Itsmedudeman wrote: Why does a balance discussion always happen when idra loses A 4-0 has nothing to do with balance. It's not outright balance. It's relative and dynamic balance. There was a time where banelings were much more effective against marines. Not marines are rather effective against banelings. Relative to how it was 1+ years ago, the balance between marines and banelings has now changed. Idra's strategies are based around the balance present in SC2 a year ago. He still does pretty much the exact same things. They are no longer effective because the game isn't balanced IN THE SAME WAY anymore. Therefore while it's a balance discussion, it's not a balance discussion, it's more an ability/metagame/maps/patches changing the balance discussion, meaning the balance has changed, and strategies should as well, but in Idra's case they haven't really. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On January 17 2012 23:51 ceaRshaf wrote: It was painful to watch the roach all in with absolutely no micro. idra didn't save any injured roach in that fight. All he can micro are drones to mineral patches and sometimes mutas. Other units are unmovable for him. He did try to micro the roaches, he just didn't succeed, to the point where your average Diamond player could probably micro better given the game situation at that point (low econ, only producing one unit, not much to focus on at all). | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
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nvs.
Canada3609 Posts
On January 18 2012 00:30 DamageControL wrote: Isn't ZvT supposed to be his best MU? I guess so, relative to his other matchups. People always talk like Idra has the greatest ZvT in the world or something, I guess if people say it enough times on the forums it eventually becomes "true" by repetition. | ||
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ftjust
Sweden43 Posts
On January 17 2012 18:40 obsKura wrote: Dunno what the fuss is all about, people who follow the Korean Weekly as well as TaeJa know that he is pretty good. Didn't expect less than a 4-0 for TaeJa. IdrA is playing his same old style, unable to become creative, way too predictable. It's not his mechanics or something, he is just boring to watch, he is doing the same stuff all the time. Thanks for broadcasting this at a somehow EU friendly time. spot on  Idra has good mechanics but he has even said in interviews himself that he lacks ingame creativity to change up and do unexpected things.and its funny when zergs complain that marines counter banelings when the majority of zergs are 1,a move lings and banelings and magic box their mutas 3 apm required? at the same time on the other side the terran have to setup up a siege tank line while at the same time split your 20-50 marines into perfect little groups I would say that even the best players right now are only at maybe 70% of what they need to be doing everygame. mass micro battles and multitasking using every possible weapon you have in your arsenal. everyone is making mistakes even the best of the best forgets to transfuse with queens, and idra is probably not even top 50 foreigner in the current meta game. 'i pull my damaged banshes back to my mainbase to repair them, why cant zergs use a queen to heal some mutas from time to time after you harras the minerals? take down a turret pull back your wounded mutas heal them? but no some zergs have been watching to much BW and are trying to 300apm micro their mutas into a single game square. rantings.... | ||
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nvs.
Canada3609 Posts
On January 18 2012 03:07 ftjust wrote: spot on Idra has good mechanics but he has even said in interviews himself that he lacks ingame creativity to change up and do unexpected things.and its funny when zergs complain that marines counter banelings when the majority of zergs are 1,a move lings and banelings and magic box their mutas 3 apm required? at the same time on the other side the terran have to setup up a siege tank line while at the same time split your 20-50 marines into perfect little groups I would say that even the best players right now are only at maybe 70% of what they need to be doing everygame. mass micro battles and multitasking using every possible weapon you have in your arsenal. everyone is making mistakes even the best of the best forgets to transfuse with queens, and idra is probably not even top 50 foreigner in the current meta game. 'i pull my damaged banshes back to my mainbase to repair them, why cant zergs use a queen to heal some mutas from time to time after you harras the minerals? take down a turret pull back your wounded mutas heal them? but no some zergs have been watching to much BW and are trying to 300apm micro their mutas into a single game square. rantings.... This guy speaks the truth. When I watch Idra stream ZvT he pretty much just clumps his ling / bane / muta into a big ball and 1a2a3a into battle using the mini-map. | ||
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Weemoed
Netherlands741 Posts
SlayerSCoCa Choi Jong Hwan Greg Practice a lot, but ... It is impractical T.T | ||
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dubRa
2165 Posts
On January 18 2012 00:02 codesad wrote: yeah it's kinda sad to see, basically a terran that can micro can just roflstomp you and there's not much you can do. i would say you have to add some infestors against a top player to prevent this from happening. Micro is not a good arguement. Because a zerg can also micro. Attack from 2 angles with zerglings that blocks the terran micro and send in the banelings. It's more easy said than done, but it is possible. It is so rare to see a zerg player micro. Leenock for example, baiting tankshots with infested terrans then go in and fungal was beautiful. | ||
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SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
b-b-but he regularly beats NA ladder heroes and takes games off koreans! this is jus mere coincidence, pure luck! idra must have been constipated! no,the games were played four years ago when he first got to korea! nono, is because marines are still OP!! i hate to do this, but i just gotta link to yet another youtube video mmmmmmm,delicious  | ||
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