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On January 17 2012 11:29 Oreo7 wrote:
Idra has been hyped up to beyond reasonable expectations. He's not on the top foreigner level occupied by Nani/Huk/Stephano and maybe Sase. But he does have a massive hype machine behind him.
I'm blaming that on the same expectations people had for SC2 as well: Nostalgia. We're used to seeing IdrA be top foreigner. We were used to certain features in BW which were missing in SC2.
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On January 17 2012 11:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 11:22 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 11:19 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 11:15 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 11:07 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:56 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:
[quote]
The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. His practice regime is laddering followed by a systematic analysis of his games. Read the TL article about it. His lack of success is more about Koreans finding the weaknesses in his builds than him sucking. That begs the question of how they became "the best in the world" in the first game. Plenty of Korean players still have gigantic holes in their play regardless of how many times they get to practice with MvP or DRG. Inca is still mentally weak, Vines still can't win a game against anyone, Gumiho remains as reliable as a broken thermometer in TvT. Maybe they should make them relocate to an actual team house. Sacrifices are necessary in order to become the best. Why are you bringing up Vines and Gumiho? They're completely irrelevant. Vines, Inca, Gumiho, they might very well be no better than foreign pros. No one cares and it's not important. It's like comparing diamond league of Korea vs AM. What is important is the top players. The middle talent is probably pretty even, but the top is where the gap is enormous and where you should care. Because despite playing against the "best of the best" there are plenty of players with long-term problems in their play, and the Korean practice regimen did not weed them out. The first problem is Inca and Gumiho are top players, and most of the top players have blatant weaknesses in their play as well. The second problem is, contrary to your claim, that the internal skill gap in Korea is very very small. Younghwa can't break into Code A but he can annihilate Jjakji if he's on a hot streak. MvP can win GSL trophies all day but a relatively small-time Protoss like Tails or Squirtle can take him down. It's irrelevant because you're arguing foreign players need nothing more than extra practice to play on a Code S level which is just blatantly untrue on many levels and also a little offensive to foreign pros implying that they don't practice hard enough. Unless there's a skill cap that's already been reached, Korean pros are not going to stop improving or stop practicing. You're arguing that despite being behind in terms of skill, structured practice will somehow catch foreign pros up to the level of Korean pros. Nice strawman, I never argued that. In fact I said the exact opposite one page ago. Doesn't matter if it's offensive if it's true. Structured and disciplined practice will raise your overall level to that of a "typical" Korean. It will not make you as good as MvP. The best players always relied on more than practice to win. So, you agree that the scene should either accept Korean dominance or do something such as seeding foreigners to close the gap then? Seeding foreigners will not close the gap. Seeding foreigners will result in foreigners getting destroyed and everyone getting convinced that the Korean/foreigner gap can't be overcome. In this case you can do what Japan did after the Americans landed: copy the model and bend it to your advantage.
Not all the foreigners get destroyed. Huk didn't, and more recently Sheth and Sase didn't but left despite not getting knocked out. The possibility is there, it's proven, you cannot argue this without outright lying. If you're worried about perception, maybe the foreign countries should improve their schools and teach some critical thinking because the opinions and reasoning here are extremely embarrassing.
The investment required to go to Korea is big, and far far far greater than a Korean native. You probably knew this but let me explain why it's important. To go to Korea and then train and not get anywhere through the qualifiers is extremely likely. DongRaeGu had a lot of trouble. If he and many other well known players had trouble, it's safe to say foreigner will. To then simply stick it out with no showings whatsoever would be a complete loss and a gamble many foreigners (and their teams) would reasonably not want to commit to. A seed is a TINY investment. Again, you're not going to be bumping out MVP or Nestea just because of a foreign seed. Tiny investment for potentially large returns in the form of hyped up foreign players, increased foreign viewership, and even increased foreign player interest as they see how big the scene is becoming.
A single player or team or organization cannot retool America to be like the Korean esports scene. You would need to:
- reverse stigma against video games
- expand broadband infrastructure
- create more pc cafes to support more local tournaments
- make people live closer together so that team houses are viable
- adjust american culture to accept living in closer quarters
- get sponsorship from large companies not necessarily related to video games (similar to Shinhan bank, Korean Air, Panasonic, Coke) for BIG tournaments
- go back in time and cultivate BW in the US so that retired pros can become SC2 coaches
I don't know how you expect this to happen so easily. This isn't comparable to postwar Japan at all because the government is not going to be involved with esports promotion.
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That match was truly disgusting to watch. At the end, I only felt sorry for IdrA and rather went to watch Ret´s stream.
€: I must say I hate games like, IdrA didnt really make any obvious mistake at least what I could recognize still those werent even close. Nowhere near close... Good thing is that Ret kinda restored my faith in Swarm ^^
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On January 17 2012 11:29 Oreo7 wrote:
Idra has been hyped up to beyond reasonable expectations. He's not on the top foreigner level occupied by Nani/Huk/Stephano and maybe Sase. But he does have a massive hype machine behind him.
What a terrible quantification of "top foreigner level". Idra, Naniwa, Huk, and Sase have all had their ups and downs. Sase hasn't shown nearly the amount of results Idra has. Naniwa didn't win a single game at Blizzard Cup and for most of 2011 didn't show any results. HuK also had his up and down moments. Stephano has been fairly consistent. You completely omitted Thorzain.
Idra currently isn't performing as well as he's capable of. He fell out of Code S and lost this showmatch, all in the span of a short period of time. But when he's in form he's easily a top foreigner. If you're truly capable of seeing past the "massive hype machine" as you seem to be implying that you can, you'd realize this.
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Someone please tell me who won. Can't find the results
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On January 17 2012 11:39 Newbistic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 11:29 Oreo7 wrote:
Idra has been hyped up to beyond reasonable expectations. He's not on the top foreigner level occupied by Nani/Huk/Stephano and maybe Sase. But he does have a massive hype machine behind him. What a terrible quantification of "top foreigner level". Idra, Naniwa, Huk, and Sase have all had their ups and downs. Sase hasn't shown nearly the amount of results Idra has. Naniwa didn't win a single game at Blizzard Cup and for most of 2011 didn't show any results. HuK also had his up and down moments. Stephano has been fairly consistent. You completely omitted Thorzain. Idra currently isn't performing as well as he's capable of. He fell out of Code S and lost this showmatch, all in the span of a short period of time. But when he's in form he's easily a top foreigner. If you're truly capable of seeing past the "massive hype machine" as you seem to be implying that you can, you'd realize this.
Stephano recently 4-0'd Thorzain making zerg look extremely powerful in his games. Makes it kind of funny to hear people complaining about the power of Terran.
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On January 17 2012 11:40 Goldbullet wrote:
Someone please tell me who won. Can't find the results
4-0 for TaeJa.
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On January 17 2012 10:58 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:53 Azarkon wrote:On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. Aside from HuK, most foreigners have not become more successful by going to Korea. Playing against top Koreans might help make you a better SC 2 gamer, but psychologically a lot of players can't seem to deal with the isolation and end up with motivation problems. What I'm saying is, it doesn't seem like it's a good idea just to send players to Korea - their results don't improve and they end up hating the experience (ie Ret, Stephano, etc.) What's really needed is for the foreigner scene to step up their own practice regiments. The way it looks now, most of the players sent to Korea have not registered better results. On the contrary, some of them appear to be struggling to be relevant, whereas if they were in the foreigner's scene they'd at least be able to attend most of the foreigner tournaments. But the Koreans aren't going to stop practicing so the skill gap can close. You seem to subscribe to the "when you're behind, get more behind" theory. Artosis would be sad.
If going to Korea isn't closing the skill gap, I don't see how it's a way to get ahead. If a strategy is not working, stop using it?
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On January 17 2012 09:31 m3rciless wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On January 17 2012 09:28 Lolli92 wrote:
I really hope Idra will not get into that IPL Showmatch..
This is worse than what Naniwa did. Seems that 400$ aren't worth anything for him. him playing poorly is worse than naniwa throwing away a game intentionally? what planet are you from? At least Naniwa is actually good at this game. That buys him a lot of leeway in my humble opinion.
And what the fuck has naniwa won in korea? educate me on this. keep that opinion nice and humble.
What do you expect..koreans are just ahead of foriegners ...ALL foriegners, not just Idra. Stephano, Huk, Jinro, Idra, Naniwa... and many others all have tried. and so far aside from some marginal success have failed.
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It is was showmatch, and it was against somebody that he's been living with for the past few months. I think a lot of people are reading way to much into this.
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About the seeding non-Kr... I think Mr. Chae (I think) said it best: the FIFA World Cup doesnt just take the best teams, otherwise it'd be a Euro + SA brawl; instead it takes some from every region
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On January 17 2012 11:56 ronpaul012 wrote:
It is was showmatch, and it was against somebody that he's been living with for the past few months. I think a lot of people are reading way to much into this.
I don't think so. Idra played 2 base muta/ling/bling.. that shit is so 6 months ago. Even gold level players take faster 3rds.
Edit: Need to fix account settings, my b-day isn't till July lol
Edit 2: Guess I can't.
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Didn't IdrA say his ZvT was phenomenal just a couple days before?
What happened?
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On January 17 2012 12:01 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 11:56 ronpaul012 wrote:
It is was showmatch, and it was against somebody that he's been living with for the past few months. I think a lot of people are reading way to much into this. I don't think so. Idra played 2 base muta/ling/bling.. that shit is so 6 months ago. Even gold level players take faster 3rds. Edit: Need to fix account settings, my b-day isn't till July lol Edit 2: Guess I can't.
6 months ago...? Doesn't leenock play exclusively with this style?
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Orb your casting is fucking awesome. I'm McLovin it!. Consider yourself having +1 fan.
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On January 17 2012 12:02 Pwnographics wrote:
Didn't IdrA say his ZvT was phenomenal just a couple days before?
What happened?
Well, something didn't happen. Whether it was inspiration to play or just bad decision-making...
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On January 17 2012 12:02 Pwnographics wrote:
Didn't IdrA say his ZvT was phenomenal just a couple days before?
What happened?
You realize this showmatch happened when he just got to Korea, right?
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On January 17 2012 12:06 NegativeSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 12:02 Pwnographics wrote:
Didn't IdrA say his ZvT was phenomenal just a couple days before?
What happened? You realize this showmatch happened when he just got to Korea, right?
No, it wasn't.
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Just to be "that guy", cant help to smile when Idra gets raped.
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On January 17 2012 12:03 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 12:01 magnaflow wrote:On January 17 2012 11:56 ronpaul012 wrote:
It is was showmatch, and it was against somebody that he's been living with for the past few months. I think a lot of people are reading way to much into this. I don't think so. Idra played 2 base muta/ling/bling.. that shit is so 6 months ago. Even gold level players take faster 3rds. Edit: Need to fix account settings, my b-day isn't till July lol Edit 2: Guess I can't. 6 months ago...? Doesn't leenock play exclusively with this style?
Leenock, nuff said
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EPT
