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On January 17 2012 10:28 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:24 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:19 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:16 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:15 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:08 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:07 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:01 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 09:58 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 09:56 fourColo wrote:
[quote]
Oh wow practice hard you figured it out! Better let all the foreign pros you figured out why they're not doing well, they're just not practicing! Wow! You're a genius! lets market this great idea for a million dollars! Hey Idra did you know? If you practiced you might win more! Too bad he spends all his time off at amusement parks or watching movies, he should be practicing!!! are you trolling? Here's a question: How many top GSL pros play in NA? How many can you hit on the NA ladder without latency? How many times have you seen low latency games of MVP in NA on ladder? The answer is probably close to many posters IQs! Maybe foreigners do so poorly because they have the mindset of the average TL poster -- thinking all they need to do to win GSL caliber tournaments is by grinding out ladder games on the NA server. Which, ironically, is probably the worst conceivable way to practice and in many cases gigantic waste of time. What's your point? What does GSL pros playing on NA have to do with anything? Why can't foreigner players raise their level on their own? If the problem is that foreigners don't practice the correct way, how does that make their seeding into GSL any more fair and valid? Is it supposed to be a real competitive tournament, or are we supposed to be ok with GSL "fixing" their tournament and lowering the level of a number of matches, just so they can get a bump in viewership? Do you seriously have no understanding of why there's a skill gap to begin with??????? How is this possible people are so uninformed? You seem to not be able to put 2 and 2 together.. I understand why there's a skill gap, but the reason for the skill gap is completely irrelevant. The fact that there IS a skill gap shows that players like Idra should not be seeded into the tournament. He should qualify the same way Koreans do, or watch watch from the sidelines. Why is GSL seeding players directly into their highest level of competition, when these players are on the other side of this skill gap that you're so eager to point out is there. If they want to have foreigners playing broadcasted games on GOM.tv, they should do things like showmatches etc. At least then the obvious skill gap is cordoned off from the idea of a tournament based on skill and fair competition. Gotcha. You don't understand why there's a skill gap. That's all you had to say. Sorry about your brain problem! Can't discuss with people who are proud be be ignorant. There reason there's a skill gap is because of cultural differences, population density and practice regimes. Now please address the issue - why should lesser players get a free pass into a tournament their not fit to compete in. Dense population + more existing skilled players => even more skilled players at a faster rate If you're behind, you CANNOT do the same thing you've been doing to get ahead. Lets put it in terms of SC2. You have 10 workers, the opponent has 20, for whatever reason. How do you get back to even? The answer is not "just keep up with your own macro" because the other person is going to keep up with theirs too and you will never catch up by doing the same things that they're doing. You need to mix things up. Or, think of it like investing. Person A continuously compounds $10, Person B does the same with $1000, both with equal interest rates. Person A will will never exceed Person B's value. You're telling Person A to "just keep reinvesting and you'll catch up", but Person B isn't going to just stop for no reason. For the last time - the reasons for the differences in skill level is beside the point, uninteresting, irrelevant.If foreigners can't qualify for Code A and get to Code S on their own accord, they have no business playing in the GSL. That is, if the GSL is supposed to the premier tournament based on skill, talent and fairness.
If you don't care about the scene being Korean dominated then yeah it is irrelevant. But, it turns out, I do care.
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On January 17 2012 10:29 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:28 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:24 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:19 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:16 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:15 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:08 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:07 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:01 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 09:58 Quotidian wrote:
[quote]
are you trolling? Here's a question: How many top GSL pros play in NA? How many can you hit on the NA ladder without latency? How many times have you seen low latency games of MVP in NA on ladder? The answer is probably close to many posters IQs! Maybe foreigners do so poorly because they have the mindset of the average TL poster -- thinking all they need to do to win GSL caliber tournaments is by grinding out ladder games on the NA server. Which, ironically, is probably the worst conceivable way to practice and in many cases gigantic waste of time. What's your point? What does GSL pros playing on NA have to do with anything? Why can't foreigner players raise their level on their own? If the problem is that foreigners don't practice the correct way, how does that make their seeding into GSL any more fair and valid? Is it supposed to be a real competitive tournament, or are we supposed to be ok with GSL "fixing" their tournament and lowering the level of a number of matches, just so they can get a bump in viewership? Do you seriously have no understanding of why there's a skill gap to begin with??????? How is this possible people are so uninformed? You seem to not be able to put 2 and 2 together.. I understand why there's a skill gap, but the reason for the skill gap is completely irrelevant. The fact that there IS a skill gap shows that players like Idra should not be seeded into the tournament. He should qualify the same way Koreans do, or watch watch from the sidelines. Why is GSL seeding players directly into their highest level of competition, when these players are on the other side of this skill gap that you're so eager to point out is there. If they want to have foreigners playing broadcasted games on GOM.tv, they should do things like showmatches etc. At least then the obvious skill gap is cordoned off from the idea of a tournament based on skill and fair competition. Gotcha. You don't understand why there's a skill gap. That's all you had to say. Sorry about your brain problem! Can't discuss with people who are proud be be ignorant. There reason there's a skill gap is because of cultural differences, population density and practice regimes. Now please address the issue - why should lesser players get a free pass into a tournament their not fit to compete in. Dense population + more existing skilled players => even more skilled players at a faster rate If you're behind, you CANNOT do the same thing you've been doing to get ahead. Lets put it in terms of SC2. You have 10 workers, the opponent has 20, for whatever reason. How do you get back to even? The answer is not "just keep up with your own macro" because the other person is going to keep up with theirs too and you will never catch up by doing the same things that they're doing. You need to mix things up. Or, think of it like investing. Person A continuously compounds $10, Person B does the same with $1000, both with equal interest rates. Person A will will never exceed Person B's value. You're telling Person A to "just keep reinvesting and you'll catch up", but Person B isn't going to just stop for no reason. For the last time - the reasons for the differences in skill level is beside the point, uninteresting, irrelevant.If foreigners can't qualify for Code A and get to Code S on their own accord, they have no business playing in the GSL. That is, if the GSL is supposed to the premier tournament based on skill, talent and fairness. If you don't care about the scene being Korean dominated then yeah it is irrelevant. But, it turns out, I do care.
Yea handing out invitations to foreigners and see them get pwnd 2-0 on gomtv is totally the way to go, you're totally not getting the point fourColo is trying to make, Quotidian.
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Quotidian, he isnt even reading your posts he's just arguing with himself. lol
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On January 17 2012 10:29 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:28 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:24 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:19 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:16 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:15 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:08 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:07 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:01 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 09:58 Quotidian wrote:
[quote]
are you trolling? Here's a question: How many top GSL pros play in NA? How many can you hit on the NA ladder without latency? How many times have you seen low latency games of MVP in NA on ladder? The answer is probably close to many posters IQs! Maybe foreigners do so poorly because they have the mindset of the average TL poster -- thinking all they need to do to win GSL caliber tournaments is by grinding out ladder games on the NA server. Which, ironically, is probably the worst conceivable way to practice and in many cases gigantic waste of time. What's your point? What does GSL pros playing on NA have to do with anything? Why can't foreigner players raise their level on their own? If the problem is that foreigners don't practice the correct way, how does that make their seeding into GSL any more fair and valid? Is it supposed to be a real competitive tournament, or are we supposed to be ok with GSL "fixing" their tournament and lowering the level of a number of matches, just so they can get a bump in viewership? Do you seriously have no understanding of why there's a skill gap to begin with??????? How is this possible people are so uninformed? You seem to not be able to put 2 and 2 together.. I understand why there's a skill gap, but the reason for the skill gap is completely irrelevant. The fact that there IS a skill gap shows that players like Idra should not be seeded into the tournament. He should qualify the same way Koreans do, or watch watch from the sidelines. Why is GSL seeding players directly into their highest level of competition, when these players are on the other side of this skill gap that you're so eager to point out is there. If they want to have foreigners playing broadcasted games on GOM.tv, they should do things like showmatches etc. At least then the obvious skill gap is cordoned off from the idea of a tournament based on skill and fair competition. Gotcha. You don't understand why there's a skill gap. That's all you had to say. Sorry about your brain problem! Can't discuss with people who are proud be be ignorant. There reason there's a skill gap is because of cultural differences, population density and practice regimes. Now please address the issue - why should lesser players get a free pass into a tournament their not fit to compete in. Dense population + more existing skilled players => even more skilled players at a faster rate If you're behind, you CANNOT do the same thing you've been doing to get ahead. Lets put it in terms of SC2. You have 10 workers, the opponent has 20, for whatever reason. How do you get back to even? The answer is not "just keep up with your own macro" because the other person is going to keep up with theirs too and you will never catch up by doing the same things that they're doing. You need to mix things up. Or, think of it like investing. Person A continuously compounds $10, Person B does the same with $1000, both with equal interest rates. Person A will will never exceed Person B's value. You're telling Person A to "just keep reinvesting and you'll catch up", but Person B isn't going to just stop for no reason. For the last time - the reasons for the differences in skill level is beside the point, uninteresting, irrelevant.If foreigners can't qualify for Code A and get to Code S on their own accord, they have no business playing in the GSL. That is, if the GSL is supposed to the premier tournament based on skill, talent and fairness. If you don't care about the scene being Korean dominated then yeah it is irrelevant. But, it turns out, I do care.
That's a little racist, specifically going out of the way to give advantages to someone because they are not Korean? I say we each do our best and give honor to the best payers, not giving a shit about their race.
Kinda ironic I posted this on MLK day 
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On January 17 2012 10:29 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:28 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:24 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:19 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:16 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:15 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:08 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:07 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:01 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 09:58 Quotidian wrote:
[quote]
are you trolling? Here's a question: How many top GSL pros play in NA? How many can you hit on the NA ladder without latency? How many times have you seen low latency games of MVP in NA on ladder? The answer is probably close to many posters IQs! Maybe foreigners do so poorly because they have the mindset of the average TL poster -- thinking all they need to do to win GSL caliber tournaments is by grinding out ladder games on the NA server. Which, ironically, is probably the worst conceivable way to practice and in many cases gigantic waste of time. What's your point? What does GSL pros playing on NA have to do with anything? Why can't foreigner players raise their level on their own? If the problem is that foreigners don't practice the correct way, how does that make their seeding into GSL any more fair and valid? Is it supposed to be a real competitive tournament, or are we supposed to be ok with GSL "fixing" their tournament and lowering the level of a number of matches, just so they can get a bump in viewership? Do you seriously have no understanding of why there's a skill gap to begin with??????? How is this possible people are so uninformed? You seem to not be able to put 2 and 2 together.. I understand why there's a skill gap, but the reason for the skill gap is completely irrelevant. The fact that there IS a skill gap shows that players like Idra should not be seeded into the tournament. He should qualify the same way Koreans do, or watch watch from the sidelines. Why is GSL seeding players directly into their highest level of competition, when these players are on the other side of this skill gap that you're so eager to point out is there. If they want to have foreigners playing broadcasted games on GOM.tv, they should do things like showmatches etc. At least then the obvious skill gap is cordoned off from the idea of a tournament based on skill and fair competition. Gotcha. You don't understand why there's a skill gap. That's all you had to say. Sorry about your brain problem! Can't discuss with people who are proud be be ignorant. There reason there's a skill gap is because of cultural differences, population density and practice regimes. Now please address the issue - why should lesser players get a free pass into a tournament their not fit to compete in. Dense population + more existing skilled players => even more skilled players at a faster rate If you're behind, you CANNOT do the same thing you've been doing to get ahead. Lets put it in terms of SC2. You have 10 workers, the opponent has 20, for whatever reason. How do you get back to even? The answer is not "just keep up with your own macro" because the other person is going to keep up with theirs too and you will never catch up by doing the same things that they're doing. You need to mix things up. Or, think of it like investing. Person A continuously compounds $10, Person B does the same with $1000, both with equal interest rates. Person A will will never exceed Person B's value. You're telling Person A to "just keep reinvesting and you'll catch up", but Person B isn't going to just stop for no reason. For the last time - the reasons for the differences in skill level is beside the point, uninteresting, irrelevant.If foreigners can't qualify for Code A and get to Code S on their own accord, they have no business playing in the GSL. That is, if the GSL is supposed to the premier tournament based on skill, talent and fairness. If you don't care about the scene being Korean dominated then yeah it is irrelevant. But, it turns out, I do care.
What does caring have to do with it? I wish Norway had better basketball teams, but saying that Norwegian teams should be seeded into the top 50% of the NBA makes zero sense. It's the exact same thing.
The correct way to raise foreigner players' skill is to have them stay in Korean houses for an extended period of time so that they can become better players. NOT to seed them directly into a tournament before they're ready.
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United States15275 Posts
On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish.
Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime.
Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers.
On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners.
But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing.
And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches?
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
That was somewhat diappointing :/
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On January 17 2012 10:34 dezi wrote:
That was somewhat diappointing :/
Jeah it was ):
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On January 17 2012 10:33 CounterOrder wrote:
Quotidian, he isnt even reading your posts he's just arguing with himself. lol
if we all stay very quiet, he may quote his own posts and start arguing.
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On January 17 2012 10:33 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:29 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:28 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:24 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:19 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:16 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:15 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:08 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:07 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:01 fourColo wrote:
[quote]
Here's a question:
How many top GSL pros play in NA? How many can you hit on the NA ladder without latency? How many times have you seen low latency games of MVP in NA on ladder? The answer is probably close to many posters IQs!
Maybe foreigners do so poorly because they have the mindset of the average TL poster -- thinking all they need to do to win GSL caliber tournaments is by grinding out ladder games on the NA server. Which, ironically, is probably the worst conceivable way to practice and in many cases gigantic waste of time. What's your point? What does GSL pros playing on NA have to do with anything? Why can't foreigner players raise their level on their own? If the problem is that foreigners don't practice the correct way, how does that make their seeding into GSL any more fair and valid? Is it supposed to be a real competitive tournament, or are we supposed to be ok with GSL "fixing" their tournament and lowering the level of a number of matches, just so they can get a bump in viewership? Do you seriously have no understanding of why there's a skill gap to begin with??????? How is this possible people are so uninformed? You seem to not be able to put 2 and 2 together.. I understand why there's a skill gap, but the reason for the skill gap is completely irrelevant. The fact that there IS a skill gap shows that players like Idra should not be seeded into the tournament. He should qualify the same way Koreans do, or watch watch from the sidelines. Why is GSL seeding players directly into their highest level of competition, when these players are on the other side of this skill gap that you're so eager to point out is there. If they want to have foreigners playing broadcasted games on GOM.tv, they should do things like showmatches etc. At least then the obvious skill gap is cordoned off from the idea of a tournament based on skill and fair competition. Gotcha. You don't understand why there's a skill gap. That's all you had to say. Sorry about your brain problem! Can't discuss with people who are proud be be ignorant. There reason there's a skill gap is because of cultural differences, population density and practice regimes. Now please address the issue - why should lesser players get a free pass into a tournament their not fit to compete in. Dense population + more existing skilled players => even more skilled players at a faster rate If you're behind, you CANNOT do the same thing you've been doing to get ahead. Lets put it in terms of SC2. You have 10 workers, the opponent has 20, for whatever reason. How do you get back to even? The answer is not "just keep up with your own macro" because the other person is going to keep up with theirs too and you will never catch up by doing the same things that they're doing. You need to mix things up. Or, think of it like investing. Person A continuously compounds $10, Person B does the same with $1000, both with equal interest rates. Person A will will never exceed Person B's value. You're telling Person A to "just keep reinvesting and you'll catch up", but Person B isn't going to just stop for no reason. For the last time - the reasons for the differences in skill level is beside the point, uninteresting, irrelevant.If foreigners can't qualify for Code A and get to Code S on their own accord, they have no business playing in the GSL. That is, if the GSL is supposed to the premier tournament based on skill, talent and fairness. If you don't care about the scene being Korean dominated then yeah it is irrelevant. But, it turns out, I do care. What does caring have to do with it? I wish Norway had better basketball teams, but saying that Norwegian teams should be seeded into the top 50% of the NBA makes zero sense. It's the exact same thing. The correct way to raise foreigner players' skill is to have them stay in Korean houses for an extended period of time so that they can become better players. NOT to seed them directly into a tournament before they're ready.
It's a huge investment to stay in Korea and chances are terrible at getting past the qualifiers. A GSL seed is a very small investment for GOM, and takes up two slots (that's 6.25% of the bracket since you don't sound like the type that's good with numbers), You probably didn't watch last night's GSL games but even Tastosis were commenting on the poor quality of some of the games. They said they were of season 3 or 4 quality. Would you like to guess how many of those players putting on poor showings were foreign seeds? (it is zero)
The fact is, you're not missing out on the BlizzCup MMA vs DRG quality games by seeding foreigners. If I were in charge I would be seeding even more.
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On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches?
Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans.
Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world.
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Never tuning in for another Idra show match again. That was just terrible.
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On January 17 2012 10:46 Dubzex wrote:
Never tuning in for another Idra show match again. That was just terrible.
Are they all around this quality?
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United States15275 Posts
On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world.
His practice regime is laddering followed by a systematic analysis of his games. Read the TL article about it. His lack of success is more about Koreans finding the weaknesses in his builds than him sucking.
That begs the question of how they became "the best in the world" in the first game. Plenty of Korean players still have gigantic holes in their play regardless of how many times they get to practice with MvP or DRG. Inca is still mentally weak, Vines still can't win a game against anyone, Gumiho remains as reliable as a broken thermometer in TvT.
Maybe they should make them relocate to an actual team house. Sacrifices are necessary in order to become the best.
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What Idra did today got countered SO easily that he can't keep repeating it forever, at least not in Korea. No need to hate on him though. He's still a great player.
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On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world.
Flash didn't become the best in the world by only practicing against Jaedong, Bisu and Fantasy.
Fact is, for foreigners to get better they need to actually WORK on getting better. Right now, too many people have focus on other activities like streaming, coaching, casting, online cups, show matches, ect. That's fine, I understand the infrastructure is different outside of Korea but that doesn't mean these players should be rewarded with seeds in a prestigious tournament like GSL.
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On January 17 2012 10:41 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:33 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:29 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:28 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:24 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:19 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:16 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:15 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:08 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:07 Quotidian wrote:
[quote]
What's your point? What does GSL pros playing on NA have to do with anything? Why can't foreigner players raise their level on their own? If the problem is that foreigners don't practice the correct way, how does that make their seeding into GSL any more fair and valid? Is it supposed to be a real competitive tournament, or are we supposed to be ok with GSL "fixing" their tournament and lowering the level of a number of matches, just so they can get a bump in viewership?
Do you seriously have no understanding of why there's a skill gap to begin with??????? How is this possible people are so uninformed? You seem to not be able to put 2 and 2 together.. I understand why there's a skill gap, but the reason for the skill gap is completely irrelevant. The fact that there IS a skill gap shows that players like Idra should not be seeded into the tournament. He should qualify the same way Koreans do, or watch watch from the sidelines. Why is GSL seeding players directly into their highest level of competition, when these players are on the other side of this skill gap that you're so eager to point out is there. If they want to have foreigners playing broadcasted games on GOM.tv, they should do things like showmatches etc. At least then the obvious skill gap is cordoned off from the idea of a tournament based on skill and fair competition. Gotcha. You don't understand why there's a skill gap. That's all you had to say. Sorry about your brain problem! Can't discuss with people who are proud be be ignorant. There reason there's a skill gap is because of cultural differences, population density and practice regimes. Now please address the issue - why should lesser players get a free pass into a tournament their not fit to compete in. Dense population + more existing skilled players => even more skilled players at a faster rate If you're behind, you CANNOT do the same thing you've been doing to get ahead. Lets put it in terms of SC2. You have 10 workers, the opponent has 20, for whatever reason. How do you get back to even? The answer is not "just keep up with your own macro" because the other person is going to keep up with theirs too and you will never catch up by doing the same things that they're doing. You need to mix things up. Or, think of it like investing. Person A continuously compounds $10, Person B does the same with $1000, both with equal interest rates. Person A will will never exceed Person B's value. You're telling Person A to "just keep reinvesting and you'll catch up", but Person B isn't going to just stop for no reason. For the last time - the reasons for the differences in skill level is beside the point, uninteresting, irrelevant.If foreigners can't qualify for Code A and get to Code S on their own accord, they have no business playing in the GSL. That is, if the GSL is supposed to the premier tournament based on skill, talent and fairness. If you don't care about the scene being Korean dominated then yeah it is irrelevant. But, it turns out, I do care. What does caring have to do with it? I wish Norway had better basketball teams, but saying that Norwegian teams should be seeded into the top 50% of the NBA makes zero sense. It's the exact same thing. The correct way to raise foreigner players' skill is to have them stay in Korean houses for an extended period of time so that they can become better players. NOT to seed them directly into a tournament before they're ready. It's a huge investment to stay in Korea and chances are terrible at getting past the qualifiers. A GSL seed is a very small investment for GOM, and takes up two slots (that's 6.25% of the bracket since you don't sound like the type that's good with numbers), You probably didn't watch last night's GSL games but even Tastosis were commenting on the poor quality of some of the games. They said they were of season 3 or 4 quality. Would you like to guess how many of those players putting on poor showings were foreign seeds? (it is zero) The fact is, you're not missing out on the BlizzCup MMA vs DRG quality games by seeding foreigners. If I were in charge I would be seeding even more.
It's such a huge investment that TeamLiquid has been doing it since the beta. It's such a huge investment that EG partnered with Slayers to provide their players with a better practice regime.
If the tournament is supposed to be a serious representation of the highest level of play, then GOM is doing themselves a huge disservice by seeding players who have no business being there into the tournament.
The point was never that foreigners squeeze out established korean players, because they obviously don't. They might squeeze out up and coming talent, but there's no way to know for sure, because seeded foreigners don't have to qualify. It's safe to assume that they do though. If the tournament is supposed to be fair and not a complete joke, then players need to EARN THEIR SPOTS in the tournament.
And that's my final word.
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On January 17 2012 10:41 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:33 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:29 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:28 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:24 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:19 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:16 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:15 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:08 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:07 Quotidian wrote:
[quote]
What's your point? What does GSL pros playing on NA have to do with anything? Why can't foreigner players raise their level on their own? If the problem is that foreigners don't practice the correct way, how does that make their seeding into GSL any more fair and valid? Is it supposed to be a real competitive tournament, or are we supposed to be ok with GSL "fixing" their tournament and lowering the level of a number of matches, just so they can get a bump in viewership?
Do you seriously have no understanding of why there's a skill gap to begin with??????? How is this possible people are so uninformed? You seem to not be able to put 2 and 2 together.. I understand why there's a skill gap, but the reason for the skill gap is completely irrelevant. The fact that there IS a skill gap shows that players like Idra should not be seeded into the tournament. He should qualify the same way Koreans do, or watch watch from the sidelines. Why is GSL seeding players directly into their highest level of competition, when these players are on the other side of this skill gap that you're so eager to point out is there. If they want to have foreigners playing broadcasted games on GOM.tv, they should do things like showmatches etc. At least then the obvious skill gap is cordoned off from the idea of a tournament based on skill and fair competition. Gotcha. You don't understand why there's a skill gap. That's all you had to say. Sorry about your brain problem! Can't discuss with people who are proud be be ignorant. There reason there's a skill gap is because of cultural differences, population density and practice regimes. Now please address the issue - why should lesser players get a free pass into a tournament their not fit to compete in. Dense population + more existing skilled players => even more skilled players at a faster rate If you're behind, you CANNOT do the same thing you've been doing to get ahead. Lets put it in terms of SC2. You have 10 workers, the opponent has 20, for whatever reason. How do you get back to even? The answer is not "just keep up with your own macro" because the other person is going to keep up with theirs too and you will never catch up by doing the same things that they're doing. You need to mix things up. Or, think of it like investing. Person A continuously compounds $10, Person B does the same with $1000, both with equal interest rates. Person A will will never exceed Person B's value. You're telling Person A to "just keep reinvesting and you'll catch up", but Person B isn't going to just stop for no reason. For the last time - the reasons for the differences in skill level is beside the point, uninteresting, irrelevant.If foreigners can't qualify for Code A and get to Code S on their own accord, they have no business playing in the GSL. That is, if the GSL is supposed to the premier tournament based on skill, talent and fairness. If you don't care about the scene being Korean dominated then yeah it is irrelevant. But, it turns out, I do care. What does caring have to do with it? I wish Norway had better basketball teams, but saying that Norwegian teams should be seeded into the top 50% of the NBA makes zero sense. It's the exact same thing. The correct way to raise foreigner players' skill is to have them stay in Korean houses for an extended period of time so that they can become better players. NOT to seed them directly into a tournament before they're ready. It's a huge investment to stay in Korea and chances are terrible at getting past the qualifiers. A GSL seed is a very small investment for GOM, and takes up two slots (that's 6.25% of the bracket since you don't sound like the type that's good with numbers), You probably didn't watch last night's GSL games but even Tastosis were commenting on the poor quality of some of the games. They said they were of season 3 or 4 quality. Would you like to guess how many of those players putting on poor showings were foreign seeds? (it is zero) The fact is, you're not missing out on the BlizzCup MMA vs DRG quality games by seeding foreigners. If I were in charge I would be seeding even more.
So what you're saying is that you want to see more foreigners get seeded into Code S just to get knocked out 2-0 in the first stage. How is this possibly good for anything?
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On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world.
Aside from HuK, most foreigners have not become more successful by going to Korea. Playing against top Koreans might help make you a better SC 2 gamer, but psychologically a lot of players can't seem to deal with the isolation and end up with motivation problems.
What I'm saying is, it doesn't seem like it's a good idea just to send players to Korea - their results don't improve and they end up hating the experience (ie Ret, Stephano, etc.) What's really needed is for the foreigner scene to step up their own practice regiments.
The way it looks now, most of the players sent to Korea have not registered better results. On the contrary, some of them appear to be struggling to be relevant, whereas if they were in the foreigner's scene they'd at least be able to attend most of the foreigner tournaments.
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On January 17 2012 10:52 ChrysaliS_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:41 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:33 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:29 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:28 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:24 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:19 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:16 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:15 Quotidian wrote:On January 17 2012 10:08 fourColo wrote:
[quote]
Do you seriously have no understanding of why there's a skill gap to begin with??????? How is this possible people are so uninformed? You seem to not be able to put 2 and 2 together.. I understand why there's a skill gap, but the reason for the skill gap is completely irrelevant. The fact that there IS a skill gap shows that players like Idra should not be seeded into the tournament. He should qualify the same way Koreans do, or watch watch from the sidelines. Why is GSL seeding players directly into their highest level of competition, when these players are on the other side of this skill gap that you're so eager to point out is there. If they want to have foreigners playing broadcasted games on GOM.tv, they should do things like showmatches etc. At least then the obvious skill gap is cordoned off from the idea of a tournament based on skill and fair competition. Gotcha. You don't understand why there's a skill gap. That's all you had to say. Sorry about your brain problem! Can't discuss with people who are proud be be ignorant. There reason there's a skill gap is because of cultural differences, population density and practice regimes. Now please address the issue - why should lesser players get a free pass into a tournament their not fit to compete in. Dense population + more existing skilled players => even more skilled players at a faster rate If you're behind, you CANNOT do the same thing you've been doing to get ahead. Lets put it in terms of SC2. You have 10 workers, the opponent has 20, for whatever reason. How do you get back to even? The answer is not "just keep up with your own macro" because the other person is going to keep up with theirs too and you will never catch up by doing the same things that they're doing. You need to mix things up. Or, think of it like investing. Person A continuously compounds $10, Person B does the same with $1000, both with equal interest rates. Person A will will never exceed Person B's value. You're telling Person A to "just keep reinvesting and you'll catch up", but Person B isn't going to just stop for no reason. For the last time - the reasons for the differences in skill level is beside the point, uninteresting, irrelevant.If foreigners can't qualify for Code A and get to Code S on their own accord, they have no business playing in the GSL. That is, if the GSL is supposed to the premier tournament based on skill, talent and fairness. If you don't care about the scene being Korean dominated then yeah it is irrelevant. But, it turns out, I do care. What does caring have to do with it? I wish Norway had better basketball teams, but saying that Norwegian teams should be seeded into the top 50% of the NBA makes zero sense. It's the exact same thing. The correct way to raise foreigner players' skill is to have them stay in Korean houses for an extended period of time so that they can become better players. NOT to seed them directly into a tournament before they're ready. It's a huge investment to stay in Korea and chances are terrible at getting past the qualifiers. A GSL seed is a very small investment for GOM, and takes up two slots (that's 6.25% of the bracket since you don't sound like the type that's good with numbers), You probably didn't watch last night's GSL games but even Tastosis were commenting on the poor quality of some of the games. They said they were of season 3 or 4 quality. Would you like to guess how many of those players putting on poor showings were foreign seeds? (it is zero) The fact is, you're not missing out on the BlizzCup MMA vs DRG quality games by seeding foreigners. If I were in charge I would be seeding even more. So what you're saying is that you want to see more foreigners get seeded into Code S just to get knocked out 2-0 in the first stage. How is this possibly good for anything?
It goes back to the idea that in order to become good, you need to train well and with great players. It's not a direct outcome, but more seeds (easier to get into Korea with these seeds and provides players with an incentive to train hard and play well) allows Foreigners to at least try it out, but nothing comes without sacrifice and work on the gamer.
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EPT
