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On January 17 2012 10:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. His practice regime is laddering followed by a systematic analysis of his games. Read the TL article about it. His lack of success is more about Koreans finding the weaknesses in his builds than him sucking. That begs the question of how they became "the best in the world" in the first game. Plenty of Korean players still have gigantic holes in their play regardless of how many times they get to practice with MvP or DRG. Inca is still mentally weak, Vines still can't win a game against anyone, Gumiho remains as reliable as a broken thermometer in TvT. Maybe they should make them relocate to an actual team house. Sacrifices are necessary in order to become the best.
Why are you bringing up Vines and Gumiho? They're completely irrelevant. Vines, Inca, Gumiho, they might very well be no better than foreign pros. No one cares and it's not important. It's like comparing diamond league of Korea vs AM. What is important is the top players. The middle talent is probably pretty even, but the top is where the gap is enormous and where you should care.
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On January 17 2012 10:53 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. Aside from HuK, seems like most foreigners do better when they train outside of Korea than in it. Playing against top Koreans might help make you a better SC 2 gamer, but psychologically a lot of players can't seem to deal with the isolation and end up with motivation problems. What I'm saying is, it doesn't seem like it's a good idea just to send players to Korea - their results don't improve and they end up hating the experience (ie Ret, Stephano, etc.) What's really needed is for the foreigner scene to step up their own practice regiments. The way it looks now, most of the players sent to Korea have not registered better results. On the contrary, some of them appear to be struggling to be relevant, whereas if they were in the foreigner's scene they'd at least be able to attend most of the foreigner tournaments.
I definitely agree with your point on isolation. I mean it's rough to live far from most of your friends and family (assuming that they're from either Europe or NA/SA) as it is, but then you add on the fact that you're a stranger in an unknown territory among other cultural differences, and it'd be a nightmare for most. I personally couldn't handle it at all.
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On January 17 2012 10:53 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. Aside from HuK, most foreigners have not become more successful by going to Korea. Playing against top Koreans might help make you a better SC 2 gamer, but psychologically a lot of players can't seem to deal with the isolation and end up with motivation problems. What I'm saying is, it doesn't seem like it's a good idea just to send players to Korea - their results don't improve and they end up hating the experience (ie Ret, Stephano, etc.) What's really needed is for the foreigner scene to step up their own practice regiments. The way it looks now, most of the players sent to Korea have not registered better results. On the contrary, some of them appear to be struggling to be relevant, whereas if they were in the foreigner's scene they'd at least be able to attend most of the foreigner tournaments.
But the Koreans aren't going to stop practicing so the skill gap can close. You seem to subscribe to the "when you're behind, get more behind" theory. Artosis would be sad.
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I'm really sorry if this shatters your dreams of becoming pro, but you cannot just grind out ladder games on the NA server and become the next MVP. It's like you play ladder for 70 hours a week, get eliminated first round at MLG and then think to yourself "if only I practiced 80 hours a week!".
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United States15275 Posts
On January 17 2012 10:53 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. Aside from HuK, seems like most foreigners do better when they train outside of Korea than in it. Playing against top Koreans might help make you a better SC 2 gamer, but psychologically a lot of players can't seem to deal with the isolation and end up with motivation problems. What I'm saying is, it doesn't seem like it's a good idea just to send players to Korea - their results don't improve and they end up hating the experience (ie Ret, Stephano, etc.) What's really needed is for the foreigner scene to step up their own practice regiments. The way it looks now, most of the players sent to Korea have not registered better results. On the contrary, some of them appear to be struggling to be relevant, whereas if they were in the foreigner's scene they'd at least be able to attend most of the foreigner tournaments.
I imagine the relatively small skill gap in Korea also hurts their perception of themselves. When you're a top player like Ret in the foreign scene you are placed on a relatively tall pedestal over the rest of the competition. When you're in Korea everyone has the skill to destroy you, from the B-teamers to the big guns. That has to be very demoralizing for a player who is used to being acclaimed as one of the best. I remember Naniwa echoing that sentiment when he started his practice in Korea.
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Quite possibly THE MOST disappointing show-match that I witnessed. I will resonate with what Multiboxing said in stream chat, at this point, I just don't want to see any more of IdrA's games period, until he changes his mentality or his style to something he's more comfortable fishing for come-backs.
- To bring more clarity, this isn't necessarily a crack at his performance, I'm more focusing on his mentality.
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Welp, I guess in the back of our heads we all had this result in mind. I heard something about the games being played when he had just arrived at Korea?
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On January 17 2012 11:04 KimJongChill wrote:
Welp, I guess in the back of our heads we all had this result in mind. I heard something about the games being played when he had just arrived at Korea?
Yeah; a false rumor.
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United States15275 Posts
On January 17 2012 10:56 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. His practice regime is laddering followed by a systematic analysis of his games. Read the TL article about it. His lack of success is more about Koreans finding the weaknesses in his builds than him sucking. That begs the question of how they became "the best in the world" in the first game. Plenty of Korean players still have gigantic holes in their play regardless of how many times they get to practice with MvP or DRG. Inca is still mentally weak, Vines still can't win a game against anyone, Gumiho remains as reliable as a broken thermometer in TvT. Maybe they should make them relocate to an actual team house. Sacrifices are necessary in order to become the best. Why are you bringing up Vines and Gumiho? They're completely irrelevant. Vines, Inca, Gumiho, they might very well be no better than foreign pros. No one cares and it's not important. It's like comparing diamond league of Korea vs AM. What is important is the top players. The middle talent is probably pretty even, but the top is where the gap is enormous and where you should care.
Because despite playing against the "best of the best" there are plenty of players with long-term problems in their play, and the Korean practice regimen did not weed those problems out. The first problem is Inca and Gumiho are top players, and most of the top players have blatant weaknesses in their play as well. The second problem is, contrary to your claim, that the internal skill gap in Korea is very very small. Younghwa can't break into Code A but he can annihilate Jjakji if he's on a hot streak. MvP can win GSL trophies all day but a relatively small-time Protoss like Tails or Squirtle can take him down. And remember that guy who was second at Homestory Cup? He reached the GSL once in his career and his winning percentage was under 30%.
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On January 17 2012 11:03 Slardar wrote:
Quite possibly THE MOST disappointing show-match that I witnessed. I will resonate with what Multiboxing said in stream chat, at this point, I just don't want to see any more of IdrA's games period, until he changes his mentality or his style to something he's more comfortable fishing for come-backs.
That's extreme, but given the performance I don't know if that's illogical.
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On January 17 2012 11:04 KimJongChill wrote:
Welp, I guess in the back of our heads we all had this result in mind. I heard something about the games being played when he had just arrived at Korea?
Fan boys trying to come up with any reason for why he played so badly. Games were played 3 days ago according to people working at ESV.
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On January 17 2012 11:14 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 11:04 KimJongChill wrote:
Welp, I guess in the back of our heads we all had this result in mind. I heard something about the games being played when he had just arrived at Korea? Fan boys trying to come up with any reason for why he played so badly. Games were played 3 days ago according to people working at ESV.
Yeah, I believe that to be true as well.
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On January 17 2012 11:07 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 10:56 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. His practice regime is laddering followed by a systematic analysis of his games. Read the TL article about it. His lack of success is more about Koreans finding the weaknesses in his builds than him sucking. That begs the question of how they became "the best in the world" in the first game. Plenty of Korean players still have gigantic holes in their play regardless of how many times they get to practice with MvP or DRG. Inca is still mentally weak, Vines still can't win a game against anyone, Gumiho remains as reliable as a broken thermometer in TvT. Maybe they should make them relocate to an actual team house. Sacrifices are necessary in order to become the best. Why are you bringing up Vines and Gumiho? They're completely irrelevant. Vines, Inca, Gumiho, they might very well be no better than foreign pros. No one cares and it's not important. It's like comparing diamond league of Korea vs AM. What is important is the top players. The middle talent is probably pretty even, but the top is where the gap is enormous and where you should care. Because despite playing against the "best of the best" there are plenty of players with long-term problems in their play, and the Korean practice regimen did not weed them out. The first problem is Inca and Gumiho are top players, and most of the top players have blatant weaknesses in their play as well. The second problem is, contrary to your claim, that the internal skill gap in Korea is very very small. Younghwa can't break into Code A but he can annihilate Jjakji if he's on a hot streak. MvP can win GSL trophies all day but a relatively small-time Protoss like Tails or Squirtle can take him down.
It's irrelevant because you're arguing foreign players need nothing more than extra practice to play on a Code S level which is just blatantly untrue on many levels and also a little offensive to foreign pros implying that they don't practice hard enough. Unless there's a skill cap that's already been reached, Korean pros are not going to stop improving or stop practicing. You're arguing that despite being behind in terms of skill, structured practice will somehow catch foreign pros up to the level of Korean pros.
I'll say it again: "when you're behind, get more behind" is a bad strategy.
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On January 17 2012 11:15 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 11:07 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:56 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. His practice regime is laddering followed by a systematic analysis of his games. Read the TL article about it. His lack of success is more about Koreans finding the weaknesses in his builds than him sucking. That begs the question of how they became "the best in the world" in the first game. Plenty of Korean players still have gigantic holes in their play regardless of how many times they get to practice with MvP or DRG. Inca is still mentally weak, Vines still can't win a game against anyone, Gumiho remains as reliable as a broken thermometer in TvT. Maybe they should make them relocate to an actual team house. Sacrifices are necessary in order to become the best. Why are you bringing up Vines and Gumiho? They're completely irrelevant. Vines, Inca, Gumiho, they might very well be no better than foreign pros. No one cares and it's not important. It's like comparing diamond league of Korea vs AM. What is important is the top players. The middle talent is probably pretty even, but the top is where the gap is enormous and where you should care. Because despite playing against the "best of the best" there are plenty of players with long-term problems in their play, and the Korean practice regimen did not weed them out. The first problem is Inca and Gumiho are top players, and most of the top players have blatant weaknesses in their play as well. The second problem is, contrary to your claim, that the internal skill gap in Korea is very very small. Younghwa can't break into Code A but he can annihilate Jjakji if he's on a hot streak. MvP can win GSL trophies all day but a relatively small-time Protoss like Tails or Squirtle can take him down. It's irrelevant because you're arguing foreign players need nothing more than extra practice to play on a Code S level which is just blatantly untrue on many levels and also a little offensive to foreign pros implying that they don't practice hard enough. Unless there's a skill cap that's already been reached, Korean pros are not going to stop improving or stop practicing. You're arguing that despite being behind in terms of skill, structured practice will somehow catch foreign pros up to the level of Korean pros.
Exactly, because Koreans aren't just innately better, and good training can produce great results.
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United States15275 Posts
On January 17 2012 11:15 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 11:07 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:56 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:
So the purpose to make the GSL more popular by inviting foreigners to participate? Thank you, I already knew that.
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling? Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. His practice regime is laddering followed by a systematic analysis of his games. Read the TL article about it. His lack of success is more about Koreans finding the weaknesses in his builds than him sucking. That begs the question of how they became "the best in the world" in the first game. Plenty of Korean players still have gigantic holes in their play regardless of how many times they get to practice with MvP or DRG. Inca is still mentally weak, Vines still can't win a game against anyone, Gumiho remains as reliable as a broken thermometer in TvT. Maybe they should make them relocate to an actual team house. Sacrifices are necessary in order to become the best. Why are you bringing up Vines and Gumiho? They're completely irrelevant. Vines, Inca, Gumiho, they might very well be no better than foreign pros. No one cares and it's not important. It's like comparing diamond league of Korea vs AM. What is important is the top players. The middle talent is probably pretty even, but the top is where the gap is enormous and where you should care. Because despite playing against the "best of the best" there are plenty of players with long-term problems in their play, and the Korean practice regimen did not weed them out. The first problem is Inca and Gumiho are top players, and most of the top players have blatant weaknesses in their play as well. The second problem is, contrary to your claim, that the internal skill gap in Korea is very very small. Younghwa can't break into Code A but he can annihilate Jjakji if he's on a hot streak. MvP can win GSL trophies all day but a relatively small-time Protoss like Tails or Squirtle can take him down. It's irrelevant because you're arguing foreign players need nothing more than extra practice to play on a Code S level which is just blatantly untrue on many levels and also a little offensive to foreign pros implying that they don't practice hard enough. Unless there's a skill cap that's already been reached, Korean pros are not going to stop improving or stop practicing. You're arguing that despite being behind in terms of skill, structured practice will somehow catch foreign pros up to the level of Korean pros.
Nice strawman, I never argued that. In fact I said the exact opposite one page ago.
Doesn't matter if it's offensive if it's true.
Structured and disciplined practice will raise your overall level to that of a "typical" Korean. It will not make you as good as MvP. The best players always relied on more than practice to win. The best players in BW did not win because they had the best environment or the best practice partners.
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On January 17 2012 11:19 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 11:15 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 11:07 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:56 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:12 fourColo wrote:
[quote]
What? That's not what I said at all? Are you trolling?
Do you seriously miss the old days of BW when foreigners lost every game to Koreans and eventually lost interest and the foreign scene became a joke compared to the Korean scene? I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. His practice regime is laddering followed by a systematic analysis of his games. Read the TL article about it. His lack of success is more about Koreans finding the weaknesses in his builds than him sucking. That begs the question of how they became "the best in the world" in the first game. Plenty of Korean players still have gigantic holes in their play regardless of how many times they get to practice with MvP or DRG. Inca is still mentally weak, Vines still can't win a game against anyone, Gumiho remains as reliable as a broken thermometer in TvT. Maybe they should make them relocate to an actual team house. Sacrifices are necessary in order to become the best. Why are you bringing up Vines and Gumiho? They're completely irrelevant. Vines, Inca, Gumiho, they might very well be no better than foreign pros. No one cares and it's not important. It's like comparing diamond league of Korea vs AM. What is important is the top players. The middle talent is probably pretty even, but the top is where the gap is enormous and where you should care. Because despite playing against the "best of the best" there are plenty of players with long-term problems in their play, and the Korean practice regimen did not weed them out. The first problem is Inca and Gumiho are top players, and most of the top players have blatant weaknesses in their play as well. The second problem is, contrary to your claim, that the internal skill gap in Korea is very very small. Younghwa can't break into Code A but he can annihilate Jjakji if he's on a hot streak. MvP can win GSL trophies all day but a relatively small-time Protoss like Tails or Squirtle can take him down. It's irrelevant because you're arguing foreign players need nothing more than extra practice to play on a Code S level which is just blatantly untrue on many levels and also a little offensive to foreign pros implying that they don't practice hard enough. Unless there's a skill cap that's already been reached, Korean pros are not going to stop improving or stop practicing. You're arguing that despite being behind in terms of skill, structured practice will somehow catch foreign pros up to the level of Korean pros. Nice strawman, I never argued that. In fact I said the exact opposite one page ago. Doesn't matter if it's offensive if it's true. Structured and disciplined practice will raise your overall level to that of a "typical" Korean. It will not make you as good as MvP. The best players always relied on more than practice to win.
So, you agree that the scene should either accept Korean dominance or do something such as seeding foreigners to close the gap then?
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United States15275 Posts
On January 17 2012 11:22 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 11:19 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 11:15 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 11:07 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:56 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:43 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:34 CosmicSpiral wrote:On January 17 2012 10:26 ZerguufOu wrote:
are you trolling? inca practiced hard and legitimately worked his way up to Code S (which is an accomplishment in and of it self). Nestea was a nobody in BW and won 3 GSL championships in 1 year. It can take a while, but theres nothing that hard work and dedication cant accomplish. Inca is a player who specializes in sniping other players with counter-builds. When it goes well he gains confidence and powers ahead; when it fails (Game 1 vs Curious) he mentally falls apart and panics. This has not changed over the last year regardless of practice regime. Nestea was actually one of the best up-and-coming zergs before he had to go the army. Two years pretty much ruined his understanding of all matchups and he was consigned to 2v2s. And I believe he still managed to get through OSL qualifiers. On January 17 2012 10:27 fourColo wrote:On January 17 2012 10:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:
[quote]
I could care less about the foreigner-Korean dynamic that everyone on TL is so obsessed about. As long as the players deliver good games I'll be satisfied. Or do you think that the only way to reach the Korean level is to do the Korean method? The Korean method appears to be working. The method is "practice in a house with a coach and do so against the best players in the world" which is currently impossible for many foreigners. But on the other hand you have players like Stephano, who practiced very methodically by themselves and achieved great results. It's entirely reasonable to say the Korean system produced more great players at a faster rate, but that's not what we were originally discussing. And if the Korean system works, why are foreigner teams sending their players to Korea instead of copying the model itself? Why should GOM invite foreigners to Korea to compete instead of foreigner teams setting up team houses with many coaches? Stephano won IPL 3 and has since posted poor results against Koreans. I'm not sure what your point is, he's not supporting you at all. He's a childish troll but if his practice regime is really just ladder grinding like he says, he's going to fall by the wayside even more vs Koreans. Also, the korean model involves regularly practicing against the best in the world. Please explain how to do that for foreign teams across the world. His practice regime is laddering followed by a systematic analysis of his games. Read the TL article about it. His lack of success is more about Koreans finding the weaknesses in his builds than him sucking. That begs the question of how they became "the best in the world" in the first game. Plenty of Korean players still have gigantic holes in their play regardless of how many times they get to practice with MvP or DRG. Inca is still mentally weak, Vines still can't win a game against anyone, Gumiho remains as reliable as a broken thermometer in TvT. Maybe they should make them relocate to an actual team house. Sacrifices are necessary in order to become the best. Why are you bringing up Vines and Gumiho? They're completely irrelevant. Vines, Inca, Gumiho, they might very well be no better than foreign pros. No one cares and it's not important. It's like comparing diamond league of Korea vs AM. What is important is the top players. The middle talent is probably pretty even, but the top is where the gap is enormous and where you should care. Because despite playing against the "best of the best" there are plenty of players with long-term problems in their play, and the Korean practice regimen did not weed them out. The first problem is Inca and Gumiho are top players, and most of the top players have blatant weaknesses in their play as well. The second problem is, contrary to your claim, that the internal skill gap in Korea is very very small. Younghwa can't break into Code A but he can annihilate Jjakji if he's on a hot streak. MvP can win GSL trophies all day but a relatively small-time Protoss like Tails or Squirtle can take him down. It's irrelevant because you're arguing foreign players need nothing more than extra practice to play on a Code S level which is just blatantly untrue on many levels and also a little offensive to foreign pros implying that they don't practice hard enough. Unless there's a skill cap that's already been reached, Korean pros are not going to stop improving or stop practicing. You're arguing that despite being behind in terms of skill, structured practice will somehow catch foreign pros up to the level of Korean pros. Nice strawman, I never argued that. In fact I said the exact opposite one page ago. Doesn't matter if it's offensive if it's true. Structured and disciplined practice will raise your overall level to that of a "typical" Korean. It will not make you as good as MvP. The best players always relied on more than practice to win. So, you agree that the scene should either accept Korean dominance or do something such as seeding foreigners to close the gap then?
Seeding foreigners will not close the gap. Seeding foreigners will result in foreigners getting destroyed and everyone getting convinced that the Korean/foreigner gap can't be overcome.
In this case you can do what Japan did after the Americans landed: copy the model and bend it to your advantage.
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or it could be maybe he was having an off day? lol who knows what it could be. Maybe he was in a bad mood or got bad news about something today. Competitors aren't machines, how you are emotionally at the time of the performance has a great impact on your play.
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On January 17 2012 11:27 BloodThirsty wrote:
or it could be maybe he was having an off day? lol who knows what it could be. Maybe he was in a bad mood or got bad news about something today. Competitors aren't machines, how you are emotionally at the time of the performance has a great impact on your play.
Yep. That's certainly true. Unfortunately people just a gift horse by the mouth sometimes.
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Idra has been hyped up to beyond reasonable expectations. He's not on the top foreigner level occupied by Nani/Huk/Stephano and maybe Sase. But he does have a massive hype machine behind him.
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EPT
