EPTTLPD Winrate Charts: December - Page 13
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AndreiDaGiant
United States394 Posts
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Mash2
United States132 Posts
On January 06 2012 04:33 Recognizable wrote: I'm going to switch to zerg or toss, i'm fucking done with this. Protoss is just too easy to play and because of the pro's terran keeps getting nerfed. Unless you are some god who can do all the multitasking required in a lategame situation against toss you aren't going to win shit. It's just rediculous. Just an example, protoss deals with drops by warping in zealots. I fucking lose against 8 marines in a tvt. Protoss macro is just too easy and PvZ, PvT is for both terran and zerg like a ticking time bomb, the longer the game goes on the lesser your chances are and the better then your opponent you have to be. Cool story bro. Stop bitching and switch then. It could be... just maybe... that Terran players are better? This is such a bad argument. Anyone who has ever taken a college statistics course should realize that. | ||
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SniXSniPe
United States1938 Posts
On January 06 2012 04:50 Mash2 wrote: Cool story bro. Stop bitching and switch then. This is such a bad argument. Anyone who has ever taken a college statistics course should realize that. Great argument. You've surely changed my opinion by throwing out a how taking a college statistics course refutes everything I just said. Lets not take into consideration, how many of these top Pros were playing BW in the first place and switched over to play Terran. Even if they were not a Jaedong or Flash, having a brackground in BW certainly helps them over all else. Go ahead and look it up, you'll find there are more ex-BW Pros/semi-pros whatever, who switched from playing Terran in BW to Terran again. And these are the people the sample size is partly constructed from. | ||
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FluidKMC
United States45 Posts
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
On January 06 2012 04:47 AndreiDaGiant wrote: i actually feel that terran cannot win a macro game vs protoss with out a bit of luck... if you build to many vikings you get run over by chargelot remax and if you dont build enough ghost you get stomped by templar and if you dont have enough vikings you get smashed by colossus... the terran win rates are high because of one base all ins and two base aggression. it would be interesting to see the winrates of tvps longer then 15 minuets in order to figure out what is wrong... terran is strong early to midgame, toss is strong lategame and i dont think that is very good game design It's bad game design, but mainly because at lower levels, Protoss doesn't even get the chance to get to lategame. Why would you need "luck" in building a terran composition when: a) the terran tech "tree" is more of a tech "straight fucking line", b) terran have a unit that counters all protoss units, even after being nerfed... the ghost, and c) terran have the best scouting in the game? It's not 1-base allins or two base agression that's winning for terran; they're just straight up a stronger race than protoss, in almost every way. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On January 02 2012 22:02 R!! wrote: If by gold level scrubs you mean the entire low to mid masters in EU and NA I totally agree with you. Heck, did you see QXC practicing vs. protoss deathball over christmas break? He was definitely struggling to win an engagement. The bottomline is that terran's are better off if they avoid the late game. | ||
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
On January 06 2012 05:01 SniXSniPe wrote: Great argument. You've surely changed my opinion by throwing out a how taking a college statistics course refutes everything I just said. Lets not take into consideration, how many of these top Pros were playing BW in the first place and switched over to play Terran. Even if they were not a Jaedong or Flash, having a brackground in BW certainly helps them over all else. Go ahead and look it up, you'll find there are more ex-BW Pros/semi-pros whatever, who switched from playing Terran in BW to Terran again. And these are the people the sample size is partly constructed from. Okay... name the korean pros that did not play BW, all of them did and they didn't all choose terran. In the international numbers the number of crazy elite t.rran players compared to the overall number of players is under .5%; certainly not enough to explain the descrepency in PvT win rates. And really my arguing with you is pointless, as you won't change your opinion regardless. | ||
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Mash2
United States132 Posts
On January 06 2012 05:01 SniXSniPe wrote: Great argument. You've surely changed my opinion by throwing out a how taking a college statistics course refutes everything I just said. Lets not take into consideration, how many of these top Pros were playing BW in the first place and switched over to play Terran. Even if they were not a Jaedong or Flash, having a brackground in BW certainly helps them over all else. Go ahead and look it up, you'll find there are more ex-BW Pros/semi-pros whatever, who switched from playing Terran in BW to Terran again. And these are the people the sample size is partly constructed from. I don't think there is any changing your opinion regardless of what is said, and I don't intend to try. I'm simply saying your logic is flawed. When a large amount of statistics point to something, you can't just dismiss that to a theory that can't be proven using statistics. That was the point of my college statistics post, it is a really basic idea that you learn at a very basic level of statistics study. But putting all of that aside, if you can't understand why the argument "terran players are just better" is bad, I don't know what to tell you. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On January 03 2012 03:33 Big J wrote: i think that david kim said that under grandmaster they have the problem that TvP is like 65% for terrans. not sure if i remember it right (sounds pretty extreme) but i think it was in his last interview Seems to contradict this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163417 "In North America, we feel that ZvT/ZvP are balanced. Protoss seems to be favored in PvT with a 60% win percentage." However, he goes on to say in top-tier korea, terran is favored: "In PvT however, top-tier terrans have a 6% win rate advantage over protoss. We generally don't see a difference within 5% as a balance issue, but 6% is a little bit outside that range. As in the past, Terran may become more powerful once Korean strategies make their way to other regions. We are keeping an eye on it at the moment." | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 06 2012 04:47 AndreiDaGiant wrote: i actually feel that terran cannot win a macro game vs protoss with out a bit of luck... if you build to many vikings you get run over by chargelot remax and if you dont build enough ghost you get stomped by templar and if you dont have enough vikings you get smashed by colossus... the terran win rates are high because of one base all ins and two base aggression. it would be interesting to see the winrates of tvps longer then 15 minuets in order to figure out what is wrong... terran is strong early to midgame, toss is strong lategame and i dont think that is very good game design I think it kinda goes both ways. I can tell you that Protoss in lower levels can not defend drops well. Generally if Terran can't micro well lategame, Protoss won't have the multitasking either to stop a few bases from getting sniped from multipronged attacks. | ||
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RandomAccount#49059
United States2140 Posts
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On January 06 2012 06:05 stormtemplar wrote: I have a problem with this. The entire FRIGGING race of protoss is based upon the deathball. Protoss needs to survive a hard as hell early game to get it, and then you have ONE shot. Protoss cannot get enough money to replace the deathball. I guarantee that if PvT gets to a point where lategame is 50:50, protoss will have a worse winrate than terran unless it's earlygame gets a large buff.. I don't really see where we disagree. I only made statements about the late game. I won't argue that terran has advantages early. And this is why terran's who are out to win should favor strategies to win in the early-mid game vs. late game macro play. I'm really not trying to argue about overall balance of the matchup. I'm just supporting the point that late-game ehad-to-head engagements are very hard for all terran and not just "gold-level scrubs". | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
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Raambo11
United States828 Posts
On January 06 2012 04:50 Mash2 wrote: Cool story bro. Stop bitching and switch then. This is such a bad argument. Anyone who has ever taken a college statistics course should realize that. At the pro level its a perfectly valid argument. Anyways I am thinking of switching from terran as well, if you have laddered lately you know a lot of Terran already have. Seeing these winrates makes me think another nerf is coming and if it does it will be close to unplayable until the pro levels, just my opinion. I don't have the time to practice all day until I can split vs storms while sniping HT at the same time. | ||
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fantasy305
Germany34 Posts
I mean Protoss fuckes up every terran in my eyes. ( Koreans not included xD) | ||
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ToInfinity
Netherlands61 Posts
On January 06 2012 06:21 fantasy305 wrote: Wow.. how can Terran still be the one with most wins? I mean Protoss fuckes up every terran in my eyes. ( Koreans not included xD) might have to do with your terran bias  | ||
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13JackaL
United States577 Posts
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DaveVAH
Canada162 Posts
My concern is that the patch notes noted in these graphs mostly focuses on protoss changes. Also I have heard that the creator of this graph mainly plays protoss. Coupling that with continuous numbers changes I do hope there are some checks and balances on something that carries so much weigh and its just not one mans work. | ||
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double620
China804 Posts
In the past months, terrans did not have to play macro games against toss. They simply do not have to. For example, in gsl group nomination, puzzle said marineking on ladder never played marco games against him and mkp respond that because he does not think he has to. As a result, toss losing a lot of pvt and terran had many easy wins. Even one of the best pvt er in sc2 at all time, oGsMc lost a lot of pvts because he can not defend in the early game. And because of 111, almost all the early toss cheese or timing did not work, simply because toss players had to prepared for 111 agresstion in the early and therefore, no 4 gate, no dt, no 6 gate. Toss needed a robo in the early game. Therefore, the only way for toss to win is macro game. A few months past, terran got nerf because the winrate in pvt looked too good for terran. In gsl, terran got even more nerf with some new introduced maps. So terrans are forced to play macro games. For example, puma is known to play 111. But in DH final, he used 111 in only one game and failed. He won nasl season2 with no 111 at all. Terrans again needed to play macro games. But in general they found it hard and that makes sense. Because a lots of terrans they do not play macro games seriously in pvt for months and they are playing against toss players who only had a chance to win with macro games. Of course, in macro game, toss should be doing better. If you can beat diamond toss with 111 before and now that did not work any more and you find yourself always lose to diamond toss in a macro game. That is not because of game inbalance, it is because you do not have the skill. As a toss player, I agree at the moment pvt late game looks favored to toss. But I believe that can change anytime. For terran, there is one good thing which is in gsl codes there are so many good terran players there and they are showing new things all the time. For example, when Jiajji showed his mech play against puzzle, puzzle was in trouble and he had no answer to that. After all, if there is one race should be nerf, it is terran. There is no reason to nerf a race losing more games than other races. | ||
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xrapture
United States1644 Posts
On January 06 2012 06:17 Raambo11 wrote: At the pro level its a perfectly valid argument. Anyways I am thinking of switching from terran as well, if you have laddered lately you know a lot of Terran already have. Seeing these winrates makes me think another nerf is coming and if it does it will be close to unplayable until the pro levels, just my opinion. I don't have the time to practice all day until I can split vs storms while sniping HT at the same time. Just because you'll lose a lot makes it unplayable? I've played Terran since beta and I'm not going to switch now just because times are tough. My macro games vs toss probably have me at a 30% winrate, hell I've even lost to plat tosses I've tried to play in a macro game, but working your ass off trying to improve your multitasking and micro against toss should be the main goal. Who care's if Koreans are causing Terran to get nerfed? Any game we lose is SOLEY because our micro or macro wasn't good enough. More GG = More Skill. | ||
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