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On December 16 2011 06:32 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:30 D_K_night wrote:Guys give it up.DoA said it best on his blog: http://www.itsgosu.com/game/sc2/blogs/naniwa-and-gomtv-cause-and-effect-101_127Thank you DoA. Here's some exerpts: "Being a mature adult means considering other people's feelings and viewpoints and Naniwa has a ways to go yet in that regard. I'm convinced that what he did at the Blizzard Cup wasn't intended to insult Nestea himself or the Korean player community, but the context in which Naniwa did what he did had that effect anyway, whether he meant it or not. Historically, Naniwa has been quick to criticize tournaments and his Probe rush was meant only as an "F U" to GOM." "There certainly is a bit of culture clash involved though in that decision by GOMtv. Naniwa is playing with the western mentality that largely puts an emphasis on match results while GOM and Nestea are operating on a mindset that puts an emphasis on showing your skill for the fans even if you don't personally gain anything from it." "Naniwa boxed his workers and A-moved them across the map. If you look at the VOD you can even see him take his hand off the keyboard and rest his chin in it after he does it. He didn't micro or do anything even remotely resembling playing the actual game so let's not kid ourselves and say it was a "valid strategy" DoA has spoken. And thus all this needs to stop. Naniwa fans, you know as well as I do, that you can just wait for the next: - MLG - NASL - IPL Or ANY upcoming tourney where Naniwa will be playing at anyways. The whole boycotting and Western attitude of "Naniwa is an exception, he should get to do anything he wants, whenever he wants" needs to stop. Quit thinking of us as special snowflakes who get to be "bad boys" and get away with anything we want. Ok so basically what you saying is that is ok for 1 culture to dictate the entire world whats accepted and political correct? Plz say you kidding
1. the irony is delicious.
2. 1 culture isn't saying being a fuckhead is unacceptable and everyone else is saying it's okay. stop kidding yourself.
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On December 16 2011 06:35 Full.tilt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:17 lamz wrote:
guys i study intercultural communication and today i found interestin thing about South Korea, Here JUST LISTEN TO THIS SHIT AND YOULL SEE WHY GOM MAKES THIS ALL:
They may use aggression or ignorance to divert attention from their actions but do not apologize for their original error at any cast.
This is exactly HOW GOM IS ACTING Almost every public figure or business follows that, including the trusty "no comment". Apologising is believed, by many, to be an admission of guilt. Where as it can also be used to try to put an end to negative situations and provide closure.
Not just guilt. It makes you look weak. The appearance of strength is often more powerful than strength itself.
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On December 16 2011 06:32 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:30 D_K_night wrote:Guys give it up.DoA said it best on his blog: http://www.itsgosu.com/game/sc2/blogs/naniwa-and-gomtv-cause-and-effect-101_127Thank you DoA. Here's some exerpts: "Being a mature adult means considering other people's feelings and viewpoints and Naniwa has a ways to go yet in that regard. I'm convinced that what he did at the Blizzard Cup wasn't intended to insult Nestea himself or the Korean player community, but the context in which Naniwa did what he did had that effect anyway, whether he meant it or not. Historically, Naniwa has been quick to criticize tournaments and his Probe rush was meant only as an "F U" to GOM." "There certainly is a bit of culture clash involved though in that decision by GOMtv. Naniwa is playing with the western mentality that largely puts an emphasis on match results while GOM and Nestea are operating on a mindset that puts an emphasis on showing your skill for the fans even if you don't personally gain anything from it." "Naniwa boxed his workers and A-moved them across the map. If you look at the VOD you can even see him take his hand off the keyboard and rest his chin in it after he does it. He didn't micro or do anything even remotely resembling playing the actual game so let's not kid ourselves and say it was a "valid strategy" DoA has spoken. And thus all this needs to stop. Naniwa fans, you know as well as I do, that you can just wait for the next: - MLG - NASL - IPL Or ANY upcoming tourney where Naniwa will be playing at anyways. The whole boycotting and Western attitude of "Naniwa is an exception, he should get to do anything he wants, whenever he wants" needs to stop. Quit thinking of us as special snowflakes who get to be "bad boys" and get away with anything we want. Ok so basically what you saying is that is ok for 1 culture to dictate the entire world whats accepted and political correct? Plz say you kidding
At least it wouldn't hurt to give the MINIMUM amount of respect and though to the hand that's feeding you.
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On December 16 2011 05:47 Gilion_ wrote:As I've read earlier today, the deal between GOM and MLG was that every MLG 2011 top placement who isnt in code S, gets a spot in code S (note that there wasnt a time frame here). I cant find the quote atm but its from the first announcement made by GOM/MLG. EDIT: Here it is http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291Show nested quote +At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
Yeah it seems like GOM wanted all of us to think that they were guaranteed a spot when they actually weren't. I'm not saying that GOM intentionally voided Naniwa's Code S spot because of his actions in BlizzCup, but I doubt they could've made it seem more unprofessional that this is the first non-Korean to earn a Code S spot due to seeding from MLG (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GSL-MLG_Exchange_Program), and also that it was unknown to anyone it seems except GOM (based on the above link to gomtv.net idk if even that is true) that Code S was never actually a guarantee. It still doesn't help them that they seemed to only announce that they even have the power to change the prizes until
1.The tournament this would've been awarded in has completed
2.Something happens that upsets GOM.
I'm not saying that Naniwa is perfect and that we should all pardon everything he does because he knows, and we all know, he messed up and hes apologized and taken his punishment. But until all the story comes out sometimes we shouldn't be so harsh on people.
tl;dr
GOM probably couldn't have picked a worse time to announce all this stuff especially without telling at least MLG who they were partnered with.
Honestly I think the only blameless party in this is MLG since they seemed to be ignorant(not knowing, I'm not calling them stupid) on the whole matter and that GOM needs to come out and say hey we may have screwed some things up, since Naniwa has already apologized I'm not looking for one from him.
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On December 16 2011 06:34 Tristran wrote:
What people fail to realise is that they were going to seed Naniwa into code S ANYWAY. So he basically got an extra benefit by being granted a Blizzard Cup seed as well! The thing is, his bad decision meant he lost the "extra benefit". Gom will of made the switch assuming it would be perfectly fine, because they were going to seed Naniwa into code S as well.
In this particular instance, GOM are at no blame whatsoever. The only blame to be placed on GOM was for the faulty tournament design for the Blizz cup, but lets not go over that again.
What people fail to realize is that every major torunament winner was invited for this. MLG also had a special deal paying for four korean invites they did get nothing in return for (except what every other tournament got for free). Making your points bold and in CAPS doesn't make your arguments any more valid btw.
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On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:06 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:04 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:01 Sheldonal wrote:On December 16 2011 06:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:59 HappyChris wrote:On December 16 2011 05:53 lightsentry wrote:
[quote]
I don't believe that anything is infallible, but yeah I still have my opinion that GOM isn't wrong and what they did was fine. You have got to be kidding me buddy. Its the same thing if MLG promise 1 million dollars to a winner of a tournament and then decide aftwards to change it becuase its in there power todo so. Mindblowing What about when MLG promises code S and can't follow through? Because GOM decides not to tell anyone that they changed the prize? Yeah what about that? ...it's the MLG prize that changed, and MLG saying it was just fine for them to change it. GOM is providing the prize but MLG is promising it and calling it a code S spot. Uhm no, GOM promised it on their own website. Since before the website changed? I don't think it's there now, but it was still MLG promoting every time they had a tournament. Can we look at what GOM actually promised? Does anyone have that? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot.
As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championchip.
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On December 16 2011 06:37 Biane wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:32 HappyChris wrote:On December 16 2011 06:30 D_K_night wrote:Guys give it up.DoA said it best on his blog: http://www.itsgosu.com/game/sc2/blogs/naniwa-and-gomtv-cause-and-effect-101_127Thank you DoA. Here's some exerpts: "Being a mature adult means considering other people's feelings and viewpoints and Naniwa has a ways to go yet in that regard. I'm convinced that what he did at the Blizzard Cup wasn't intended to insult Nestea himself or the Korean player community, but the context in which Naniwa did what he did had that effect anyway, whether he meant it or not. Historically, Naniwa has been quick to criticize tournaments and his Probe rush was meant only as an "F U" to GOM." "There certainly is a bit of culture clash involved though in that decision by GOMtv. Naniwa is playing with the western mentality that largely puts an emphasis on match results while GOM and Nestea are operating on a mindset that puts an emphasis on showing your skill for the fans even if you don't personally gain anything from it." "Naniwa boxed his workers and A-moved them across the map. If you look at the VOD you can even see him take his hand off the keyboard and rest his chin in it after he does it. He didn't micro or do anything even remotely resembling playing the actual game so let's not kid ourselves and say it was a "valid strategy" DoA has spoken. And thus all this needs to stop. Naniwa fans, you know as well as I do, that you can just wait for the next: - MLG - NASL - IPL Or ANY upcoming tourney where Naniwa will be playing at anyways. The whole boycotting and Western attitude of "Naniwa is an exception, he should get to do anything he wants, whenever he wants" needs to stop. Quit thinking of us as special snowflakes who get to be "bad boys" and get away with anything we want. Ok so basically what you saying is that is ok for 1 culture to dictate the entire world whats accepted and political correct? Plz say you kidding At least it wouldn't hurt to give the MINIMUM amount of respect and though to the hand that's feeding you.
Well it goes both ways. Have respect for eachother cultures without dictating whats accepted or not
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when in Rome, do as the Romans
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On December 16 2011 06:27 ladyumbra wrote:
Some of you are failing to see the actual point here. Anyone who played in providence and thought they were eligible for a code s seed could have gotten screwed over here. You cannot honestly tell me TL fans would calmly sit back and accept the idea that Hero got into code s only a few days later ( since gom would have had to correct this misconception right away as there are no spare code s seeds just international ones) to learn " Nope just blizzcup and we never told mlg sorry." Try and seperate this new information from the drama currently going on. This is purely about Gom's failure to communicate with MLG and allowing their partner to inform people they have won prizes that do not exists.
They WERE giving a Code S seed, you can see that essentially in the way that GOM worded their statements. Due to the new format they were not OBLIGATED to give the seed but due to the nature of the exchange program and that naniwa played very well in Providence, they felt he DESERVED the spot which is what the new system is based off of.
If you look at how the new seeds are given, wildcard system, then its obvious why the spot was changed. The problem with how this all panned out is that GOM should have said this was their new system EXPLICITLY rather than release some half-assed flow charts and expect every single person to derive the same meaning from them.
In my opinion had they split up the announcements or ordered a more in depth post this could be avoided. They could easily have said next year the seeds are based off of merit and such first, said that initially a seed was given based off of performance and obvious manner issues were minor and being overlooked, but that shitting on what was supposed to be a "ending the year with the best games and a bang" was the straw that broke the camels back kind of thing. Had anyone else at that MLG won/placed highest without a Code S spot, they would have gotten the blizzcup seed(obviously) and also the code S seed simply because they are obviously extremely talented to best that huge names at Providence. Where shit gets rotten here is that its understood there was Code S seed at stake, and in effect there was, but not in an official capacity.
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On December 16 2011 06:39 Snowball_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:06 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:04 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:01 Sheldonal wrote:On December 16 2011 06:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:59 HappyChris wrote:
[quote]
You have got to be kidding me buddy.
Its the same thing if MLG promise 1 million dollars to a winner of a tournament and then decide aftwards to change it becuase its in there power todo so.
Mindblowing What about when MLG promises code S and can't follow through? Because GOM decides not to tell anyone that they changed the prize? Yeah what about that? ...it's the MLG prize that changed, and MLG saying it was just fine for them to change it. GOM is providing the prize but MLG is promising it and calling it a code S spot. Uhm no, GOM promised it on their own website. Since before the website changed? I don't think it's there now, but it was still MLG promoting every time they had a tournament. Can we look at what GOM actually promised? Does anyone have that? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot. As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championchip.
Please read the OP with the updated statement.
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Oh Man.. GOM is looking way worse than NaNiWa in this whole mess.. Naniwa messed up, explained himself and left nothing hidden. GOM.. why so sneaky? Unprofessional.. you called it.
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On December 16 2011 06:34 Tristran wrote:
What people fail to realise is that they were going to seed Naniwa into code S ANYWAY. So he basically got an extra benefit by being granted a Blizzard Cup seed as well! The thing is, his bad decision meant he lost the "extra benefit". Gom will of made the switch assuming it would be perfectly fine, because they were going to seed Naniwa into code S as well.
In this particular instance, GOM are at no blame whatsoever. The only blame to be placed on GOM was for the faulty tournament design for the Blizz cup, but lets not go over that again.
Had Gom actually communicated this prior to this whole shitstorm, I guarantee no one would have issues with this.
If Gom had said "We're changing Code S seeds to whoever we decide to select based off of results, and will instead give Blizzcup invites for performing at Providence" before (or even during) Providence none of this would have happened. They didn't do that. Instead they made it seem like they're unfairly punishing Naniwa by using poorly defined rules and an argument that amounts to "This is our tournament, we'll do whatever we damn well please - so don't BM".
By their failure to communicate, they're alienating the foreigner scene while making themselves seem unprofessional.
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On December 16 2011 06:30 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +The outline of Blizzard CUP is as follows:
Players: Best 10 of 2011
- 2011 GSL Point Ranking TOP 1,2,3 (3)
- 1st and 2nd place of MLG Providence (2)
- Winner of IEM NYC (1)
- Winner of IPL Season 3 (1)
- Winner of DreamHack Winter (1)
- Winner of Blizzcon (1)
- Winner of WCG (1)
- If players have more than one title, suitable replacements will be invited From http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272406Posted October 6th. This seems more like a misunderstanding than anything else.
We all knew Providence would also go to the Blizzard Cup. We thought it was a bonus. It's not unfathomable that the top player from Providence would get Code S *and* 1st and 2nd place could go to the Blizzard Cup. We didn't think they were mutually exclusive seeds.
Imagine if 1st and 2nd place at Providence had both been Code S players and Naniwa got 3rd. Then we would still have thought Naniwa had Code S, but that he wouldn't be going to the Blizzard Cup.
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Still doesn't make sense. Sundance has essentially confirmed that the national championship is a pro circuit event with the exchange program in effect. However he did not address the terms of the contract between GOM and MLG which must defer from what's stated on both websites because MLG never kept up their end of the deal to seed 4 korean players directly into championship pool. in fact the format of providence itself did not allow for it yet GOM was supposed to keep up its end of the bargain and award the Code S spot?
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How do you know they did not consult MLG?
If they did discuss about it they are not obliged to tell you there business plans.
Less work for MLG to openly say yeah they discussed it and make them look bad themselves.
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What many people here is failing to see is that MLG through this statement is as close to openly saing "Fuck you" to GOM as the possibly can be, though they value being professional more and therefore say "You're on your own"
The problem MLG has here is that they did false advertisement by saying that the winner got a Code S seed, that's why they are trying to clean their hands of the issue. If this deal would have been between 2 companies in America they could probably end up sueing each other for breaking the contract and for the money lost by false advertisement giving them bad reputation and/or a lawsuit for false advertisement.
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On December 16 2011 06:39 Snowball_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:06 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:04 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:01 Sheldonal wrote:On December 16 2011 06:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:59 HappyChris wrote:
[quote]
You have got to be kidding me buddy.
Its the same thing if MLG promise 1 million dollars to a winner of a tournament and then decide aftwards to change it becuase its in there power todo so.
Mindblowing What about when MLG promises code S and can't follow through? Because GOM decides not to tell anyone that they changed the prize? Yeah what about that? ...it's the MLG prize that changed, and MLG saying it was just fine for them to change it. GOM is providing the prize but MLG is promising it and calling it a code S spot. Uhm no, GOM promised it on their own website. Since before the website changed? I don't think it's there now, but it was still MLG promoting every time they had a tournament. Can we look at what GOM actually promised? Does anyone have that? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot. As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championship. "The 2011 StarCraft 2 Pro Circuit National Championship"
The final event of the Pro Circuit is still part of the Pro Circuit.
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this reminds of some action movies where the villain with the hostage and the gun suddenly says, whoops the deal has changed in some way to my favor....
i don't know what to believe now in this huge intercultural shitstorm, YOU ALL NEED TO TALK MORE!!
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On December 16 2011 06:39 Snowball_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:06 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:04 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:01 Sheldonal wrote:On December 16 2011 06:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:59 HappyChris wrote:
[quote]
You have got to be kidding me buddy.
Its the same thing if MLG promise 1 million dollars to a winner of a tournament and then decide aftwards to change it becuase its in there power todo so.
Mindblowing What about when MLG promises code S and can't follow through? Because GOM decides not to tell anyone that they changed the prize? Yeah what about that? ...it's the MLG prize that changed, and MLG saying it was just fine for them to change it. GOM is providing the prize but MLG is promising it and calling it a code S spot. Uhm no, GOM promised it on their own website. Since before the website changed? I don't think it's there now, but it was still MLG promoting every time they had a tournament. Can we look at what GOM actually promised? Does anyone have that? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot. As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championchip.
Hm, if Providence does not count to Pro Circuit (however that's defined, dunno), then the Exchange program was already over. Why then did MLG pay for four Koreans, and why did Gom claim to give a BlizzCup seed as "payment" for the Providence exchnage programm? Something doesn't fit here.
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So Gom, probe...ubly rush...ed with this? more GG more skill Gom. Naniwa apologized, you owe us the fans one.
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99500
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EPT
