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On December 16 2011 06:40 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:37 Biane wrote:On December 16 2011 06:32 HappyChris wrote:On December 16 2011 06:30 D_K_night wrote:Guys give it up.DoA said it best on his blog: http://www.itsgosu.com/game/sc2/blogs/naniwa-and-gomtv-cause-and-effect-101_127Thank you DoA. Here's some exerpts: "Being a mature adult means considering other people's feelings and viewpoints and Naniwa has a ways to go yet in that regard. I'm convinced that what he did at the Blizzard Cup wasn't intended to insult Nestea himself or the Korean player community, but the context in which Naniwa did what he did had that effect anyway, whether he meant it or not. Historically, Naniwa has been quick to criticize tournaments and his Probe rush was meant only as an "F U" to GOM." "There certainly is a bit of culture clash involved though in that decision by GOMtv. Naniwa is playing with the western mentality that largely puts an emphasis on match results while GOM and Nestea are operating on a mindset that puts an emphasis on showing your skill for the fans even if you don't personally gain anything from it." "Naniwa boxed his workers and A-moved them across the map. If you look at the VOD you can even see him take his hand off the keyboard and rest his chin in it after he does it. He didn't micro or do anything even remotely resembling playing the actual game so let's not kid ourselves and say it was a "valid strategy" DoA has spoken. And thus all this needs to stop. Naniwa fans, you know as well as I do, that you can just wait for the next: - MLG - NASL - IPL Or ANY upcoming tourney where Naniwa will be playing at anyways. The whole boycotting and Western attitude of "Naniwa is an exception, he should get to do anything he wants, whenever he wants" needs to stop. Quit thinking of us as special snowflakes who get to be "bad boys" and get away with anything we want. Ok so basically what you saying is that is ok for 1 culture to dictate the entire world whats accepted and political correct? Plz say you kidding At least it wouldn't hurt to give the MINIMUM amount of respect and though to the hand that's feeding you. Well it goes both ways. Have respect for eachother cultures without dictating whats accepted or not
Well when the mighty dollar comes into question, the respect tends to go in one direction most of the time. Doesn't matter about human rights when you're starving.
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On December 16 2011 06:39 Snowball_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:06 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:04 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:01 Sheldonal wrote:On December 16 2011 06:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:59 HappyChris wrote:
[quote]
You have got to be kidding me buddy.
Its the same thing if MLG promise 1 million dollars to a winner of a tournament and then decide aftwards to change it becuase its in there power todo so.
Mindblowing What about when MLG promises code S and can't follow through? Because GOM decides not to tell anyone that they changed the prize? Yeah what about that? ...it's the MLG prize that changed, and MLG saying it was just fine for them to change it. GOM is providing the prize but MLG is promising it and calling it a code S spot. Uhm no, GOM promised it on their own website. Since before the website changed? I don't think it's there now, but it was still MLG promoting every time they had a tournament. Can we look at what GOM actually promised? Does anyone have that? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot. As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championchip.
Wrong. Providence was a Pro Circuit event (look at MLGs site). GOM acted horribly here.
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On December 16 2011 06:36 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:32 Klondikebar wrote:On December 16 2011 06:28 Angel_ wrote:
"but it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement."
the important part of the statement. For some reason, this just doesn't make me any happier. "It is within Naniwa's jurisdiction to probe rush"GOM has already made it very clear that simply following the rules isn't enough. That's why saying "they were technically still following the rules" isn't going to convince anyone that this is OK. Ok say it is within his jurisdiction to probe rush and he followed the rules. Guess what? He wasn't guaranteed a code S spot. They were considering him for it, but they never announced it completely. What he won at providence was a blizzcup seed, and they gave him that. Beyond that, they didn't owe him anything.
Isn't that what we're actually debating here? I'm seeing articles thrown around left and right that keep contradicting each other!
You could very well be correct and I will most certainly admit it if it turns out that they never did promise him that spot...although it still leaves the question of why MLG seemed to be left in the dark.
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On December 16 2011 06:39 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:34 Tristran wrote:
What people fail to realise is that they were going to seed Naniwa into code S ANYWAY. So he basically got an extra benefit by being granted a Blizzard Cup seed as well! The thing is, his bad decision meant he lost the "extra benefit". Gom will of made the switch assuming it would be perfectly fine, because they were going to seed Naniwa into code S as well.
In this particular instance, GOM are at no blame whatsoever. The only blame to be placed on GOM was for the faulty tournament design for the Blizz cup, but lets not go over that again. What people fail to realize is that every major torunament winner was invited for this. MLG also had a special deal paying for four korean invites they did get nothing in return for (except what every other tournament got for free). Making your points bold and in CAPS doesn't make your arguments any more valid btw.
But they didn't seed any korean invites. The koreans that went were seeded because they had enough MLG points, the other koreans went thru the open bracket and paid for themselves.
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On December 16 2011 06:39 Snowball_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:06 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:04 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:01 Sheldonal wrote:On December 16 2011 06:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:59 HappyChris wrote:
[quote]
You have got to be kidding me buddy.
Its the same thing if MLG promise 1 million dollars to a winner of a tournament and then decide aftwards to change it becuase its in there power todo so.
Mindblowing Because GOM decides not to tell anyone that they changed the prize? Yeah what about that? ...it's the MLG prize that changed, and MLG saying it was just fine for them to change it. GOM is providing the prize but MLG is promising it and calling it a code S spot. Uhm no, GOM promised it on their own website. Since before the website changed? I don't think it's there now, but it was still MLG promoting every time they had a tournament. Can we look at what GOM actually promised? Does anyone have that? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot. As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championchip.
Bullshittu.
http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/
The above is the site for the Pro Cirvcit. Go to the menu-point "Competitions". Do you see Providence? What is your basis for excluding Providence from the Pro Circuit? The organizers of the Pro Circuit themselves counted Providence as gifting a code S spot.
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On December 16 2011 06:44 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:39 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:34 Tristran wrote:
What people fail to realise is that they were going to seed Naniwa into code S ANYWAY. So he basically got an extra benefit by being granted a Blizzard Cup seed as well! The thing is, his bad decision meant he lost the "extra benefit". Gom will of made the switch assuming it would be perfectly fine, because they were going to seed Naniwa into code S as well.
In this particular instance, GOM are at no blame whatsoever. The only blame to be placed on GOM was for the faulty tournament design for the Blizz cup, but lets not go over that again. What people fail to realize is that every major torunament winner was invited for this. MLG also had a special deal paying for four korean invites they did get nothing in return for (except what every other tournament got for free). Making your points bold and in CAPS doesn't make your arguments any more valid btw. But they didn't seed any korean invites. The koreans that went were seeded because they had enough MLG points, the other koreans went thru the open bracket and paid for themselves.
No. Four of them in the open bracket got paid by MLG to be there.
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On December 16 2011 06:41 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:30 ZeromuS wrote:The outline of Blizzard CUP is as follows:
Players: Best 10 of 2011
- 2011 GSL Point Ranking TOP 1,2,3 (3)
- 1st and 2nd place of MLG Providence (2)
- Winner of IEM NYC (1)
- Winner of IPL Season 3 (1)
- Winner of DreamHack Winter (1)
- Winner of Blizzcon (1)
- Winner of WCG (1)
- If players have more than one title, suitable replacements will be invited From http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272406Posted October 6th. This seems more like a misunderstanding than anything else. We all knew Providence would also go to the Blizzard Cup. We thought it was a bonus. It's not unfathomable that the top player from Providence would get Code S *and* 1st and 2nd place could go to the Blizzard Cup. We didn't think they were mutually exclusive seeds. Imagine if 1st and 2nd place at Providence had both been Code S players and Naniwa got 3rd. Then we would still have thought Naniwa had Code S, but that he wouldn't be going to the Blizzard Cup.
... And even under GOM's statement, he would have gone to GSL but for the Nestea incident.
This rule change did not hurt Naniwa. Under either the old rule or the new rule, he was going to Code S before the Nestea game.
He received punishment from GOM for the Nestea game. We can argue all day about whether the punishment fits the crime, but the rule change itself did not hurt Naniwa (unless you argue that under the old rule GOM would have no right to revoke Code S from any player).
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On December 16 2011 06:28 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:23 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:17 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:14 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:07 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:05 Ghola wrote:On December 16 2011 05:36 castled wrote:
Regardless of whether or not Nani "earned" a code S invite, he threw it away by disrespecting GOM, his opponent, and the viewers. I hope GOM doesn't feel pressure to reverse their decision because so many vocal posters on Teamliquid don't understand the meaning of respect.
I'm really sick of this whole controversy because no matter how many level-headed evaluations are posted, there are so many people that will never understand. There are ways for Gom to punish Naniwa without breaking their agreements with MLG. The MLG press release in the original post specifically says that GOM was within their rights to act as they did. Thus, the did not break their agreement at all--this was in the contract to begin with. Are you fucking kidding me??? If an organizer offers you a certain prize and announces it publicly, and then when you win tells you the prize is not what he/she promised you because of a fine print in page 500 of a contract he signed with a third party, what would you do?? I guess if you are not worked up about it, the natural thing to say would be "oh well, that's what I get for dealing with crooks and liars" .. this is something you'd never expect from an organization that is trying to market themselves as professional and ethical. Uh, so are you arguing that MLG broke their promise to Naniwa then? MLG is coming clean by shrewdly exerting all the blame on GOM, they claim GOM changed the contract unilaterally and without previous notice... the truth? I guess we'll wait for GOM's announcement. Still, I think MLG tried to play nice with GOM by making it look like if they have the right to change anything in the contract unilaterally... I mean, really? could GOM just say sorry no code A, code S for anybody and MLG be ok with that??? I seriously doubt it, it seems more likely that they are both just colluding to fuck up Naniwa coz they know he's a sitting duck right now. I know your ID says Peru, and its possible english isn't your first language (although you speak fine), but I have to nitpick here: GOM did not change the contract unilaterally. In fact, they did not change the contract at all. They took actions which both sides agree were within their rights under the contract. If you are instead suggesting that GOM's actions were not within the contract, and that both GOM and MLG are lying, based upon a contract that you have not seen... Well, that is a large leap of logic. Both parties that have actually seen the contract say that it was not violated. Because I have not seen the contract, I will take their word.
If GOM actions were within contract with MLG, that put MLG in very delicate position because they promised in public contract something that they knew they could not provide and which belonged to 3rd party over which they had no control, I repeat, that they knew they could not provide. Then it logically follow that MLG action in Providence could actually be illegal according to US law.
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With both MLG and IPL stepping up next year with probably the best of the best Koreans included, it might be a time when "Global" Starcraft league is not that re;levant anymore.
They way this was handled by GOM is way worse than Nani probe rushing. "Did I forget to mention that a prize was changed?" Bullshit.
Another issue I have with the 2012 GSL format is that the price pool is now only 50% of what it was this year due to the double amount of time one season takes.
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On December 16 2011 06:44 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:39 Snowball_ wrote:On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:06 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:04 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:01 Sheldonal wrote:On December 16 2011 06:00 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
Because GOM decides not to tell anyone that they changed the prize? Yeah what about that? ...it's the MLG prize that changed, and MLG saying it was just fine for them to change it. GOM is providing the prize but MLG is promising it and calling it a code S spot. Uhm no, GOM promised it on their own website. Since before the website changed? I don't think it's there now, but it was still MLG promoting every time they had a tournament. Can we look at what GOM actually promised? Does anyone have that? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot. As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championchip. Bullshittu. http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/The above is the site for the Pro Cirvcit. Go to the menu-point "Competitions". Do you see Providence? What is your basis for excluding Providence from the Pro Circuit? The organizers of the Pro Circuit themselves counted Providence as gifting a code S spot.
This entire argument boggles my mind. People need to reread the OP. It doesn't matter if Providence was included in the Pro Circuit or not -- the understanding was as follows:
The original agreement between MLG and GSL through the League Exchange Program (LXP) stated that the highest ranked player in the Top 3 from each MLG Pro Circuit event in 2011, including Providence, who did not already have Code S status would be granted Code S status at GSL for one season.
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On December 16 2011 06:45 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:44 hunts wrote:On December 16 2011 06:39 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:34 Tristran wrote:
What people fail to realise is that they were going to seed Naniwa into code S ANYWAY. So he basically got an extra benefit by being granted a Blizzard Cup seed as well! The thing is, his bad decision meant he lost the "extra benefit". Gom will of made the switch assuming it would be perfectly fine, because they were going to seed Naniwa into code S as well.
In this particular instance, GOM are at no blame whatsoever. The only blame to be placed on GOM was for the faulty tournament design for the Blizz cup, but lets not go over that again. What people fail to realize is that every major torunament winner was invited for this. MLG also had a special deal paying for four korean invites they did get nothing in return for (except what every other tournament got for free). Making your points bold and in CAPS doesn't make your arguments any more valid btw. But they didn't seed any korean invites. The koreans that went were seeded because they had enough MLG points, the other koreans went thru the open bracket and paid for themselves. No. Four of them in the open bracket got paid by MLG to be there.
and 4 of them got paid by MLG to be there for Providence?
Maybe you can tell us which 4, cause I don't recall any/can see who were
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Completely unacceptable by GOM. People are right in saying this could be called "illegal" in the USA. Fairness would make me think MLG should pay for less Koreans to come to their tournies, but I want whats best for e-sports so maybe just an apology over not being clear and transparent on their policies would do from GOM.
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Either way, MLG has stated it was within GOM's right to change the seeds to be for Blizzcup. Heck you have a better shot at winning that then code S anyways. Stop with the debate
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On December 16 2011 06:48 SuperNinja wrote:
Completely unacceptable by GOM. People are right in saying this could be called "illegal" in the USA. Fairness would make me think MLG should pay for less Koreans to come to their tournies, but I want whats best for e-sports so maybe just an apology over not being clear and transparent on their policies would do from GOM.
No, this would not be illegal in the US. There is no law against any of what happened. According to all parties to any contract, no contracts were broken.
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On December 16 2011 06:48 SuperNinja wrote:
Completely unacceptable by GOM. People are right in saying this could be called "illegal" in the USA. Fairness would make me think MLG should pay for less Koreans to come to their tournies, but I want whats best for e-sports so maybe just an apology over not being clear and transparent on their policies would do from GOM.
how is it illegal when MLG even says that they were within their rights to change the terms of the placements?
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I'm sure someone already posted about this article.
This is a google translated article from Korean Press on Nov. 21
Translated : http://translate.google.co.kr/
Original : http://www.thisisgame.com/=
"However, three of the next season, John Lu is still unclear whether the code S exhibit. The MLG competition for Providence code because it is undefined whether S seed grant.
Bear TV is the way long ago, in 2012 proposed changes league announced MLG According to the 2012 season through the code S seed is likely to disappear in the code directly into S can be jikhaenghal seed 2 Seeding sponsor one of stuff. situation is unclear whether the MLG seed.
Sponsor Code S Syd Bears TV Chapter 2 for association with foreign competition has indicated that it will take: the MLG and GSL war again in 2012 as a player running the exchange program if the code S Direct 1 ranking three cigars a John Lu is"
Hmm Google translator isn't as good as I thought to be... It is basically saying that his Code S is secured for 2011 GSL, however it was still unclear at the moment whether Code S seed would take effect for upcoming 2012 GSL. As announced from Gom, there would be change in format for 2012 GSL, and it is most likely that NaNiwa wouldn't be guaranteed Code S seed since there will be only two sponsor seed for Code S, and it isn't decided at the moment whether MLG would be one of these two. But there's still high a change of NaNiwa recieving seed for Up/Down match.
Sorry for bad english, though it is at least better than google translation.
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It should be noted that MLG did not seed any Korean into pool play so there is some precidence for GOM not recipricating with seeds of their own.
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i felt like GOM should have talked to NaNiwa and/or Quantic Gaming before giving out their statements and tried to like negotiate some kind of agreement for both sides could explain out and justify their actions. It would have been "professional" in that sense. That could have possibly lessen impact and backlash towards the community.
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He actually, according to rules of the LXP was to get a Code S invite. This is obvious, I don't know what you trolls are doing here. GOM just changed this behind everyones back. Either they didn't bother telling ANYONE, making the whole foreign scene believe Naniwa had a Code S spot for the next GSL or they changed it based upon what happened at Blizz Cup.
Either way it's extremely unprofessional and on top of that they changed their story a couple of times not really adding credibility to their decisions/story.
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On December 16 2011 06:47 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:44 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 06:39 Snowball_ wrote:On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:06 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:04 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:01 Sheldonal wrote:
[quote]
Because GOM decides not to tell anyone that they changed the prize? Yeah what about that? ...it's the MLG prize that changed, and MLG saying it was just fine for them to change it. GOM is providing the prize but MLG is promising it and calling it a code S spot. Uhm no, GOM promised it on their own website. Since before the website changed? I don't think it's there now, but it was still MLG promoting every time they had a tournament. Can we look at what GOM actually promised? Does anyone have that? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot. As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championchip. Bullshittu. http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/The above is the site for the Pro Cirvcit. Go to the menu-point "Competitions". Do you see Providence? What is your basis for excluding Providence from the Pro Circuit? The organizers of the Pro Circuit themselves counted Providence as gifting a code S spot. This entire argument boggles my mind. People need to reread the OP. It doesn't matter if Providence was included in the Pro Circuit or not -- the understanding was as follows: Show nested quote +The original agreement between MLG and GSL through the League Exchange Program (LXP) stated that the highest ranked player in the Top 3 from each MLG Pro Circuit event in 2011, including Providence, who did not already have Code S status would be granted Code S status at GSL for one season.
An apologist is an apologist is an apologist
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EPT
