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The most laughable thing is, that if they went on and said "ya, what he did was wrong, we are going to punish him by removing his code s spot." nobody would say anything against them - it's their right, even Quantic and Naniwa himself already acknowledged that it is fair for him to be punished by losing the spot.
But no, they went on and basically did the exact same thing as Naniwa did, only on much larger scale. Unprofessional behaviour (you don't tell your partner that you are not going to give one of the proclaimed prizes? Really?), not respecting teams and players (even Naniwa and Quantic thought that he earned Code S spot via Providence) and of course not respecting fans (show me ONE english article pre-MLG that says that there won't be any Code S award for Providence and I am not even mentioning that from the start of the partnership, foreign fans NEVER knew who is going to be in Code A for the previous MLGs, neither which season is an award for which MLG...)
Imho, the best way would be for Nani to apologize (which he did, and if you listened to him during yesterdays Live on Three, you could hear he understood what he did). But also, GOM needs to apologize to both - Naniwa and MLG for deceiving them and also the fans. And then just forget it and move on. There should be nothing more to this, in the end, GSL is the best Starcraft you can get nowadays...
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On December 16 2011 06:47 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:44 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 06:39 Snowball_ wrote:On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:06 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:04 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:01 Sheldonal wrote:
[quote]
Because GOM decides not to tell anyone that they changed the prize? Yeah what about that? ...it's the MLG prize that changed, and MLG saying it was just fine for them to change it. GOM is providing the prize but MLG is promising it and calling it a code S spot. Uhm no, GOM promised it on their own website. Since before the website changed? I don't think it's there now, but it was still MLG promoting every time they had a tournament. Can we look at what GOM actually promised? Does anyone have that? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot. As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championchip. Bullshittu. http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/The above is the site for the Pro Cirvcit. Go to the menu-point "Competitions". Do you see Providence? What is your basis for excluding Providence from the Pro Circuit? The organizers of the Pro Circuit themselves counted Providence as gifting a code S spot. This entire argument boggles my mind. People need to reread the OP. It doesn't matter if Providence was included in the Pro Circuit or not -- the understanding was as follows: Show nested quote +The original agreement between MLG and GSL through the League Exchange Program (LXP) stated that the highest ranked player in the Top 3 from each MLG Pro Circuit event in 2011, including Providence, who did not already have Code S status would be granted Code S status at GSL for one season.
yet using the same agreement that MLG cited, they never seeded 4 korean players directly into championship pools. what's
your explanation for that? or are we to assume that GSL is supposed to keep up their end of the bargain but MLG does not?
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On December 16 2011 06:28 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:23 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:17 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:14 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:07 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:05 Ghola wrote:On December 16 2011 05:36 castled wrote:
Regardless of whether or not Nani "earned" a code S invite, he threw it away by disrespecting GOM, his opponent, and the viewers. I hope GOM doesn't feel pressure to reverse their decision because so many vocal posters on Teamliquid don't understand the meaning of respect.
I'm really sick of this whole controversy because no matter how many level-headed evaluations are posted, there are so many people that will never understand. There are ways for Gom to punish Naniwa without breaking their agreements with MLG. The MLG press release in the original post specifically says that GOM was within their rights to act as they did. Thus, the did not break their agreement at all--this was in the contract to begin with. Are you fucking kidding me??? If an organizer offers you a certain prize and announces it publicly, and then when you win tells you the prize is not what he/she promised you because of a fine print in page 500 of a contract he signed with a third party, what would you do?? I guess if you are not worked up about it, the natural thing to say would be "oh well, that's what I get for dealing with crooks and liars" .. this is something you'd never expect from an organization that is trying to market themselves as professional and ethical. Uh, so are you arguing that MLG broke their promise to Naniwa then? MLG is coming clean by shrewdly exerting all the blame on GOM, they claim GOM changed the contract unilaterally and without previous notice... the truth? I guess we'll wait for GOM's announcement. Still, I think MLG tried to play nice with GOM by making it look like if they have the right to change anything in the contract unilaterally... I mean, really? could GOM just say sorry no code A, code S for anybody and MLG be ok with that??? I seriously doubt it, it seems more likely that they are both just colluding to fuck up Naniwa coz they know he's a sitting duck right now. I know your ID says Peru, and its possible english isn't your first language (although you speak fine), but I have to nitpick here: GOM did not change the contract unilaterally. In fact, they did not change the contract at all. They took actions which both sides agree were within their rights under the contract. If you are instead suggesting that GOM's actions were not within the contract, and that both GOM and MLG are lying, based upon a contract that you have not seen... Well, that is a large leap of logic. Both parties that have actually seen the contract say that it was not violated. Because I have not seen the contract, I will take their word.
Well sure, I don't know what contract says and neither do you. You are assuming both parties are operating in good faith and I have my doubts. GOM, as per MLG's statement can adjust placement without telling MLG about it. Does it mean GOM could switch code S and A for code A and B or get the 5 players that won code A and put them in another online tournament? Would MLG be ok with that? How would that work if Idra had won code S in providence and MLG would be like 'just kidding man, no code S was ever on the line, but if you make the GOM execs happy, they might give you one'.
The reason i am doubtful is, the legal language that would allow GOM to place Naniwa in a different tournament and not do any of the things above-mentioned would simply be contradictory.
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On December 16 2011 06:48 Biane wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:45 Eury wrote:On December 16 2011 06:44 hunts wrote:On December 16 2011 06:39 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:34 Tristran wrote:
What people fail to realise is that they were going to seed Naniwa into code S ANYWAY. So he basically got an extra benefit by being granted a Blizzard Cup seed as well! The thing is, his bad decision meant he lost the "extra benefit". Gom will of made the switch assuming it would be perfectly fine, because they were going to seed Naniwa into code S as well.
In this particular instance, GOM are at no blame whatsoever. The only blame to be placed on GOM was for the faulty tournament design for the Blizz cup, but lets not go over that again. What people fail to realize is that every major torunament winner was invited for this. MLG also had a special deal paying for four korean invites they did get nothing in return for (except what every other tournament got for free). Making your points bold and in CAPS doesn't make your arguments any more valid btw. But they didn't seed any korean invites. The koreans that went were seeded because they had enough MLG points, the other koreans went thru the open bracket and paid for themselves. No. Four of them in the open bracket got paid by MLG to be there. and 4 of them got paid by MLG to be there for Providence? Maybe you can tell us which 4, cause I don't recall any/can see who were
http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providence
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So, in essence: GOM changed the rules and didn't tell their partner. MLG, in turn, told everyone involved that the exchange program was still valid. Now, either GOM needs to apologize to MLG - admitting their fault, or MLG needs to apologize to the casters, players, teams and fans - admitting their fault. Preferably both. I'm not an apology whore, but with all the shit that's been going down, it feels like the respectful and honorable thing to do.
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Nice damage control GOM and MLG. Too bad nothing's gonna change though.
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On December 16 2011 06:51 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:28 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:23 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:17 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:14 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:07 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:05 Ghola wrote:On December 16 2011 05:36 castled wrote:
Regardless of whether or not Nani "earned" a code S invite, he threw it away by disrespecting GOM, his opponent, and the viewers. I hope GOM doesn't feel pressure to reverse their decision because so many vocal posters on Teamliquid don't understand the meaning of respect.
I'm really sick of this whole controversy because no matter how many level-headed evaluations are posted, there are so many people that will never understand. There are ways for Gom to punish Naniwa without breaking their agreements with MLG. The MLG press release in the original post specifically says that GOM was within their rights to act as they did. Thus, the did not break their agreement at all--this was in the contract to begin with. Are you fucking kidding me??? If an organizer offers you a certain prize and announces it publicly, and then when you win tells you the prize is not what he/she promised you because of a fine print in page 500 of a contract he signed with a third party, what would you do?? I guess if you are not worked up about it, the natural thing to say would be "oh well, that's what I get for dealing with crooks and liars" .. this is something you'd never expect from an organization that is trying to market themselves as professional and ethical. Uh, so are you arguing that MLG broke their promise to Naniwa then? MLG is coming clean by shrewdly exerting all the blame on GOM, they claim GOM changed the contract unilaterally and without previous notice... the truth? I guess we'll wait for GOM's announcement. Still, I think MLG tried to play nice with GOM by making it look like if they have the right to change anything in the contract unilaterally... I mean, really? could GOM just say sorry no code A, code S for anybody and MLG be ok with that??? I seriously doubt it, it seems more likely that they are both just colluding to fuck up Naniwa coz they know he's a sitting duck right now. I know your ID says Peru, and its possible english isn't your first language (although you speak fine), but I have to nitpick here: GOM did not change the contract unilaterally. In fact, they did not change the contract at all. They took actions which both sides agree were within their rights under the contract. If you are instead suggesting that GOM's actions were not within the contract, and that both GOM and MLG are lying, based upon a contract that you have not seen... Well, that is a large leap of logic. Both parties that have actually seen the contract say that it was not violated. Because I have not seen the contract, I will take their word. Well sure, I don't know what contract says and neither do you. You are assuming both parties are operating in good faith and I have my doubts. GOM, as per MLG's statement can adjust placement without telling MLG about it. Does it mean GOM could switch code S and A for code A and B or get the 5 players that won code A and put them in another online tournament? Would MLG be ok with that? How would that work if Idra had won code S in providence and MLG would be like 'just kidding man, no code S was ever on the line, but if you make the GOM execs happy, they might give you one'. The reason i am doubtful is, the legal language that would allow GOM to place Naniwa in a different tournament and not do any of the things above-mentioned would simply be contradictory.
I don't know--I could think of language pretty easily. "A player who finishes in the top 3 of MLG shall earn a spot in a future GSL Code S tournament, GSL Arena of Legends tournament, GSL Blizzard Cup tournament, or an equivalent tournament."
There--language drafted. Can't trade it for Code A or Code B. That wasn't so hard?
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On December 16 2011 05:19 schI2ler wrote:
Well this is really unprofessional. I am amazed how calm and grown up the MLG team is. I can imagine some people would rage at their "business-partners" for doing this, screaming and threatening. But MLG keeps calm, this is not sarcasm, I think this is a professional move by MLG, and I am positively surprised.
But MLG please make sure players and fans can be sure that what you declare as a prize really is going to be handed to the winner. Code S for foreigners is a huge prize, its fame, fanbase, its still the Mekka of sc2, to me code S would probably mean more than "just" money.
It might be legal in Korea to change a contract afterwards and withouth the contractpartner knowing and/or accepting this, I am not a good korean lawyer, but I am pretty sure, that even with the culture clash, this must be highly unrespectfull, not only in America and Europe but also in Korea.
I don't want to jump on the gom-hate-bandwagon but I really hope that the responsible persons at GOM realize how unrespected MLG and foreigner fans (and Naniwa) have to feel right now.
Just because Sundance isn't telling you everything he is doing minute by minute...
MLG could very well be up-in-arms about this behind the curtains. There is nothing in it for MLG to make their conflict public. Hurting the most prestigious SC2 league doesn't actually help MLG at all unfortunately. The scene is too small to start going after your competitors/partners/colleagues like that. But I would imagine that MLG heads are livid about this.
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I do not agree with much in this mess. Alot of vague statements from all organisations. I hope it gets resolved during the christmas break.
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Yeah I knew this was a bait and switch. Bad reputational move.
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typical koreans.. not surprised : ]
User was banned for this post.
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On December 16 2011 06:51 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:28 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:23 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:17 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:14 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:07 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:05 Ghola wrote:On December 16 2011 05:36 castled wrote:
Regardless of whether or not Nani "earned" a code S invite, he threw it away by disrespecting GOM, his opponent, and the viewers. I hope GOM doesn't feel pressure to reverse their decision because so many vocal posters on Teamliquid don't understand the meaning of respect.
I'm really sick of this whole controversy because no matter how many level-headed evaluations are posted, there are so many people that will never understand. There are ways for Gom to punish Naniwa without breaking their agreements with MLG. The MLG press release in the original post specifically says that GOM was within their rights to act as they did. Thus, the did not break their agreement at all--this was in the contract to begin with. Are you fucking kidding me??? If an organizer offers you a certain prize and announces it publicly, and then when you win tells you the prize is not what he/she promised you because of a fine print in page 500 of a contract he signed with a third party, what would you do?? I guess if you are not worked up about it, the natural thing to say would be "oh well, that's what I get for dealing with crooks and liars" .. this is something you'd never expect from an organization that is trying to market themselves as professional and ethical. Uh, so are you arguing that MLG broke their promise to Naniwa then? MLG is coming clean by shrewdly exerting all the blame on GOM, they claim GOM changed the contract unilaterally and without previous notice... the truth? I guess we'll wait for GOM's announcement. Still, I think MLG tried to play nice with GOM by making it look like if they have the right to change anything in the contract unilaterally... I mean, really? could GOM just say sorry no code A, code S for anybody and MLG be ok with that??? I seriously doubt it, it seems more likely that they are both just colluding to fuck up Naniwa coz they know he's a sitting duck right now. I know your ID says Peru, and its possible english isn't your first language (although you speak fine), but I have to nitpick here: GOM did not change the contract unilaterally. In fact, they did not change the contract at all. They took actions which both sides agree were within their rights under the contract. If you are instead suggesting that GOM's actions were not within the contract, and that both GOM and MLG are lying, based upon a contract that you have not seen... Well, that is a large leap of logic. Both parties that have actually seen the contract say that it was not violated. Because I have not seen the contract, I will take their word. Well sure, I don't know what contract says and neither do you. You are assuming both parties are operating in good faith and I have my doubts. GOM, as per MLG's statement can adjust placement without telling MLG about it. Does it mean GOM could switch code S and A for code A and B or get the 5 players that won code A and put them in another online tournament? Would MLG be ok with that? How would that work if Idra had won code S in providence and MLG would be like 'just kidding man, no code S was ever on the line, but if you make the GOM execs happy, they might give you one'. The reason i am doubtful is, the legal language that would allow GOM to place Naniwa in a different tournament and not do any of the things above-mentioned would simply be contradictory.
all they have to do is say in the contract: "we reserve the right to modify this contract at any time, and for any reason, without notice to MLG," and then they can do whatever the hell they want.
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On December 16 2011 06:51 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:47 babylon wrote:On December 16 2011 06:44 m0ck wrote:On December 16 2011 06:39 Snowball_ wrote:On December 16 2011 06:33 ACrow wrote:On December 16 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:12 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 06:06 Longshank wrote:On December 16 2011 06:04 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
...it's the MLG prize that changed, and MLG saying it was just fine for them to change it. GOM is providing the prize but MLG is promising it and calling it a code S spot. Uhm no, GOM promised it on their own website. Since before the website changed? I don't think it's there now, but it was still MLG promoting every time they had a tournament. Can we look at what GOM actually promised? Does anyone have that? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291edit: "At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player." ....and they followed through with this. By MLG providence there was no 2011 code S left and they had made it public that things were changed in 2012. They weren't explictly clear about what would happen with the new format, and neither was MLG, and both sides could have taken the initiative to sort this out before it came to all this. I hold MLG more accountable because it was being offered as a prize to *their* tournament and they were able to profit from it. I'm sorry but MLG is just as much to blame in this. Read a little more closely - the original states all 2011 MLGs will award a code S spot. Providence was in 2011 and thus should award a code S (no mention the code S spot has to be in 2011 as well) spot. As mentioned read more closely: "Pro Circuit". Providence wasn't one of them. it was rather a championchip. Bullshittu. http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/The above is the site for the Pro Cirvcit. Go to the menu-point "Competitions". Do you see Providence? What is your basis for excluding Providence from the Pro Circuit? The organizers of the Pro Circuit themselves counted Providence as gifting a code S spot. This entire argument boggles my mind. People need to reread the OP. It doesn't matter if Providence was included in the Pro Circuit or not -- the understanding was as follows: The original agreement between MLG and GSL through the League Exchange Program (LXP) stated that the highest ranked player in the Top 3 from each MLG Pro Circuit event in 2011, including Providence, who did not already have Code S status would be granted Code S status at GSL for one season. yet using the same agreement that MLG cited, they never seeded 4 korean players directly into championship pools. what's your explanation for that? or are we to assume that GSL is supposed to keep up their end of the bargain but MLG does not? You don't know what you're talking about. MLG did uphold their part of the agreement. In providence there was obviously no pool play, so instead MLG paid for 3 previous MLG champions/1 runner-up (MMA, MVP, Bomber, and MC) to come to Providence. GSL did not do anything for their half of the LXP for Providence.
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On December 16 2011 06:56 zzuper wrote:
typical koreans.. not surprised : ]
Shit like this... why can't people see that GOM is an organization not a representative of a whole country. Equating them like this is just straight up racist.
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It's bait and switch. People have sued for much less when it comes to false advertising and won.
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On December 16 2011 06:49 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:48 SuperNinja wrote:
Completely unacceptable by GOM. People are right in saying this could be called "illegal" in the USA. Fairness would make me think MLG should pay for less Koreans to come to their tournies, but I want whats best for e-sports so maybe just an apology over not being clear and transparent on their policies would do from GOM. No, this would not be illegal in the US. There is no law against any of what happened. According to all parties to any contract, no contracts were broken.
The argument is not that GOM action were possibly illegal, in the and they are free to do as they fit within their contractual obligations with MLG, but that MLG action could possibly be view as such, because they put false advertisement selling one thing for basically another, and they knew that GOM had power to withdraw that part of the prize and still went with it.
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On December 16 2011 06:48 mrtomjones wrote:
Either way, MLG has stated it was within GOM's right to change the seeds to be for Blizzcup. Heck you have a better shot at winning that then code S anyways. Stop with the debate
With all past Champions in it and with no chance to advance / stay in code A/S or whatever? just honor?
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On December 16 2011 06:57 seabass wrote:Shit like this... why can't people see that GOM is an organization not a representative of a whole country. Equating them like this is just straight up racist.
Agree.
This is not Korea vs. foreigners. This is just GOM.
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oh.. boi QQ everyone get over it
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On December 16 2011 06:56 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:51 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:28 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:23 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:17 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:14 s4life wrote:On December 16 2011 06:07 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 06:05 Ghola wrote:On December 16 2011 05:36 castled wrote:
Regardless of whether or not Nani "earned" a code S invite, he threw it away by disrespecting GOM, his opponent, and the viewers. I hope GOM doesn't feel pressure to reverse their decision because so many vocal posters on Teamliquid don't understand the meaning of respect.
I'm really sick of this whole controversy because no matter how many level-headed evaluations are posted, there are so many people that will never understand. There are ways for Gom to punish Naniwa without breaking their agreements with MLG. The MLG press release in the original post specifically says that GOM was within their rights to act as they did. Thus, the did not break their agreement at all--this was in the contract to begin with. Are you fucking kidding me??? If an organizer offers you a certain prize and announces it publicly, and then when you win tells you the prize is not what he/she promised you because of a fine print in page 500 of a contract he signed with a third party, what would you do?? I guess if you are not worked up about it, the natural thing to say would be "oh well, that's what I get for dealing with crooks and liars" .. this is something you'd never expect from an organization that is trying to market themselves as professional and ethical. Uh, so are you arguing that MLG broke their promise to Naniwa then? MLG is coming clean by shrewdly exerting all the blame on GOM, they claim GOM changed the contract unilaterally and without previous notice... the truth? I guess we'll wait for GOM's announcement. Still, I think MLG tried to play nice with GOM by making it look like if they have the right to change anything in the contract unilaterally... I mean, really? could GOM just say sorry no code A, code S for anybody and MLG be ok with that??? I seriously doubt it, it seems more likely that they are both just colluding to fuck up Naniwa coz they know he's a sitting duck right now. I know your ID says Peru, and its possible english isn't your first language (although you speak fine), but I have to nitpick here: GOM did not change the contract unilaterally. In fact, they did not change the contract at all. They took actions which both sides agree were within their rights under the contract. If you are instead suggesting that GOM's actions were not within the contract, and that both GOM and MLG are lying, based upon a contract that you have not seen... Well, that is a large leap of logic. Both parties that have actually seen the contract say that it was not violated. Because I have not seen the contract, I will take their word. Well sure, I don't know what contract says and neither do you. You are assuming both parties are operating in good faith and I have my doubts. GOM, as per MLG's statement can adjust placement without telling MLG about it. Does it mean GOM could switch code S and A for code A and B or get the 5 players that won code A and put them in another online tournament? Would MLG be ok with that? How would that work if Idra had won code S in providence and MLG would be like 'just kidding man, no code S was ever on the line, but if you make the GOM execs happy, they might give you one'. The reason i am doubtful is, the legal language that would allow GOM to place Naniwa in a different tournament and not do any of the things above-mentioned would simply be contradictory. all they have to do is say in the contract: "we reserve the right to modify this contract at any time, and for any reason, without notice to MLG," and then they can do whatever the hell they want.
Sure they can, but will writing that make them look any less of an ass after the swtich?
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EPT
