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On December 15 2011 11:17 Mooneyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:08 hunts wrote:On December 15 2011 11:02 nickycakes wrote:On December 15 2011 10:52 synaptik wrote:
all you people threatening to not buy GSL tickets are hilarious. you're all going to be watching the rest of blizz cup, and you'll all be back for GSL jan. don't lie to yourself.
if anything GOMtv just got more respect from the rest of us for putting their foot down and making an example out of this kid. at least we won't be seeing dumb probe rushes anymore. I already charged back my purchase. Does that still qualify as "lying to myself"? You will most likely buy it once the season starts anyway. And if you think there's any significant amount of foreigners not buying tickets because of this, or even remotely comparable to how many koreans would've not bought them had gom let nanniwa get away with his behavior, you're delusional. Ofc you are right we internet trolls have no principles... /sarcasm off Its what customers can do. Its not hard to understand. If everyone always reasoned as you do nothing would ever change. A bit OT: i find it funny that most tournaments try to be international, while G(lobal)SL only seems to look at everything from a korean perspective.
Unless you're implying that being disgusted with throwing games when you make a living off of them is a purely korean POV you're a lot more OT than you think.
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On December 15 2011 11:16 z0nk wrote:Show nested quote +Programes are professional athletes, they play to compete, to win and to the Sport ideal.
They are not showmen, they are not there primarly to entertain the masses at our pleasure. This is not WWE.
Putting two progamers in a situation they need to play without having any chance to progress in the tournament is embarassing, it's a violence against them. They play to win and it is in their hearts, but when ou put them in a ridiculous situation like that, they need to pretend they are competing, they need to become actors, an this is shame.
Naniwa took a stand, and even if it was not the best one at that moment, he clearly took a stand to say he is not a clown, he is a competitor. He was true to his ideal and heart and now you are punishing him for being honest, to him and to us.
Me, and everyone that love Starcraft as a Sport, and not as a Show, support Naniwa, and taking his Code S seed arbitrarely as you did is an offense to everyone that loves esports. Sourcehttp://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=212717&cid=0&kind=1 I think this guy has a great argument. That is exactly what I've been saying some pages ago.
I think everybody has their own "work-ethics" but if you truly feel like being that awesome competitor who wants to win and be the best, shouldn't you use every game to prove to the world and yourself that you can beat that opponent?
Regardless of how much money or tournament standing is riding on this match?
Especially with a developing rival like NesTea, shouldn't you have the pride to try and beat him?
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Naniwa-2
MLG Global Invitational
MLG Providence
Nestea-2
Blizzcup
Blizzcon
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Understand where you're coming from, but still don't agree with this and it still feels like a severe overreaction to an unfortunate situation that you (GOM) helped create.
This is not to be seen as a direct punishment resulting from the incident, the incident did however understandably have an influence on NaNiWa's position on the list of candidates.
This is spin, i got dizzy from reading it. This is a punishment plain and simple, you can't act like it isn't and expect people to buy that. We're not stupid.
By tolerating such behavior, purposefully losing might be deemed as a legitimate action and we might see more of such matches in the future,
I tolerate players sending a message that a stupid pointless game is stupid and shouldn't happen. I hope tournament organizers all over world learn from this, stop letting these games happen (unless players are eager to battle), and grow some respect for player emotions. They're not robots.
I want professionalism from all sides. Naniwa didn't show it, but neither did you. He's a kid with learning to do. You're true professionals who should know better.
Good luck. I won't be watching anymore though. I feel like i need to regain trust after supporting for so long then being shown the ugly side of 'ESPORTS'.
+ Show Spoiler +
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What Naniwa did is the equivalent of an American football team coming out and spiking the ball every down because the game is "meaningless". It's a tempter tantrum to show how little you care about the tournament and the spirit of competition.
There isn't a fan out there who would be OK with something like that in ANY sport, no matter how much people try to pretend otherwise.
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On December 15 2011 11:21 Lorizean wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:16 z0nk wrote:Programes are professional athletes, they play to compete, to win and to the Sport ideal.
They are not showmen, they are not there primarly to entertain the masses at our pleasure. This is not WWE.
Putting two progamers in a situation they need to play without having any chance to progress in the tournament is embarassing, it's a violence against them. They play to win and it is in their hearts, but when ou put them in a ridiculous situation like that, they need to pretend they are competing, they need to become actors, an this is shame.
Naniwa took a stand, and even if it was not the best one at that moment, he clearly took a stand to say he is not a clown, he is a competitor. He was true to his ideal and heart and now you are punishing him for being honest, to him and to us.
Me, and everyone that love Starcraft as a Sport, and not as a Show, support Naniwa, and taking his Code S seed arbitrarely as you did is an offense to everyone that loves esports. Sourcehttp://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=212717&cid=0&kind=1 I think this guy has a great argument. That is exactly what I've been saying some pages ago. I think everybody has their own "work-ethics" but if you truly feel like being that awesome competitor who wants to win and be the best, shouldn't you use every game to prove to the world and yourself that you can beat that opponent? Regardless of how much money or tournament standing is riding on this match? Especially with a developing rival like NesTea, shouldn't you have the pride to try and beat him?
But he does want to be the best, he does work his ass off, he does have spirit, everyone knows this. He fucked up when he was already really down going into the match. You don't have to vilify him for it, not nearly to the extent the Korean community has. It really sounds more like everyone just wants Naniwa to have no personality and to be neutered for the sake of drama.
Even scoots said it best. Your expectations of players are way too high.
On December 15 2011 11:25 FieryBalrog wrote:
What Naniwa did is the equivalent of an American football team coming out and spiking the ball every down because the game is "meaningless". It's a tempter tantrum to show how little you care about the tournament and the spirit of competition.
There isn't a fan out there who would be OK with something like that in ANY sport, no matter how much people try to pretend otherwise.
No it's not. It only relates to the couple of sports fans who keep recycling this over stated BS.
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Way to trash your reputation GOMTV, congrats !!
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When someone is punished based on cultural views and not written rules then something is wrong. A 0-3 match with nothing on the line shouldnt be played they were both eliminated.
He took a hard three losses and was eliminated, i wouldn't have wanted to get up in front of a crowd and play out a losers match like some clown. yes part of the game is we are entertained by the games, but watching two people down and out forced to play is far from entertainment, it was poorly organized for that to even happen.
To the people complaining about it being a probe rush, it shouldn't matter how he did it, if he did something dumb like proxy gates or one base carrier to intentionally lose the results would have been the same.
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You dont see other individual based sports have show matches that aren't explicitly defined as such before. I hope the GSL thinks better next time. I'm not going to congratulate either side and going to sit on my money until GOM figures their stuff out.
This situation has actually helped e-sports. Whenever you want to throw a match do a silly all-in (6pool, proxy-whatever) instead of a probe rush and no one will know that theres no difference.
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On December 15 2011 11:25 FieryBalrog wrote:
What Naniwa did is the equivalent of an American football team coming out and spiking the ball every down because the game is "meaningless". It's a tempter tantrum to show how little you care about the tournament and the spirit of competition.
There isn't a fan out there who would be OK with something like that in ANY sport, no matter how much people try to pretend otherwise.
lsu knelt against ole miss with five minutes left in the game because the game was over
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I really love you GOMTV and FULLY support your decision on dealing with this kid.
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On December 15 2011 11:19 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:05 synaptik wrote:On December 15 2011 10:56 oBlade wrote:On December 15 2011 10:50 OhYess wrote:On December 15 2011 06:43 Gin-san wrote:
That's actually a pretty lame response, just like i expected it. They think they're 100% correct and only blame NaNiwa. Hopefully Blizzard won't give the next SC2 contract to you but to KeSPA. If it was KeSPA who Naniwa did this too, his punishment would be MUCH more severe. KeSPA takes e-sports extremely seriously, and punish ruthlessly. Which I do like in a way. It's speculation either way, but in general KeSPA doesn't care about anything you do in game with your units. They just run the sandbox. But the structure of teams and sponsors (and good formats) makes every game incentivized (which is not to say they weren't susceptible to being outbid by other incentives, like throwing games) so you always have something to play for. Not only wouldn't they do anything to Naniwa, they wouldn't even need to because he would never have been in this position to begin with. On December 15 2011 10:52 synaptik wrote:
all you people threatening to not buy GSL tickets are hilarious. you're all going to be watching the rest of blizz cup, and you'll all be back for GSL jan. don't lie to yourself.
if anything GOMtv just got more respect from the rest of us for putting their foot down and making an example out of this kid. at least we won't be seeing dumb probe rushes anymore. GOMTV now has the respect of someone who calls an adult professional gamer "kid," doesn't capitalize any sentences in his posts, and disrespects everyone from the opposite view by accusing them of lying to themselves? because capitalizing sentences on a internet discussion board is indicative of my intelligence and worth. amirite? he behaved like a kid, he deserves to be called a kid. Not your intelligence and worth, no (although as far as inferences go, I wouldn't call it a long shot). Capitalizing sentences here means you are respecting the board by putting effort into your posts no matter what their content might be. The fact alone that you don't capitalize isn't the crux of my argument, it's the consilience of different, independent points about you: deriding people who will freely use their wallet with respect to GSL season passes, not capitalizing anything, and ironically calling a 21 year old a kid because of his purported childish behavior.
so you agree that i called someone a kid because of his childish behavior, not because of his age. ok?
capitalizing sentences or not shows nothing in regards to my respect for the board as long as my content is coherent and easy to understand.
people can choose how they vote with their money, but what i am doing is calling them out: none of them will follow through with it. empty threats made in the heat of the moment
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On December 15 2011 11:23 SojuPrime wrote:
Naniwa-2
MLG Global Invitational
MLG Providence
Nestea-2
Blizzcup
Blizzcon
not in my book sir.
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On December 15 2011 11:18 Zaurus wrote:
I personally don't think is right for people to boycott GOM. Is really quite stupid. Just think about it. Both side only stand to lose. You lost out on some quality games where GOM get a cut in their income. This exact same mentality resulted in numerous (not all) unjustified strikes and unnecessary economy lost. Having half of NBA season cut away due to disagreements is a good example.
What naniwa did is definitely in the grey area, but boycotting is definitely wrong. Think about it guys, don't act like a kid.
There are two reasons for someone to not buy a pass for next year who before this would have anyways:
1. The more obvious one is that it is much easier for me to go without the GSL for a while, than it is for GOM to go without viewers. It's a form of protest for enforcing a rule that doesn't exist, and seemingly making up a punishment on the spot. By purchasing the pass you are supporting what they do, and by not buying one, you can let them know this was a very bad decision.
2. A decision like this completely threatens the legitimacy of the tournament. Naniwa is considered to be one of the top protoss in the world, winning MLG Global Invitation against Nestea and MVP in the finals and semi finals. He then took 2nd place in what is considered to be the hardest Starcraft 2 tournament to date, only losing to Leenok, who then took 2nd in the GSL Code S finals. However, Naniwa's spot was instead given to either Sen, who took 3rd place at NASL, or IdrA who didn't place in NASL, and had a Code S spot half a year ago. And the reason this spot was taken from him, is because he didn't want to play an entirely inconsequential match.
I imagine for most people, it is a bit of both of these.
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On December 15 2011 11:16 z0nk wrote:Show nested quote +Programes are professional athletes, they play to compete, to win and to the Sport ideal.
They are not showmen, they are not there primarly to entertain the masses at our pleasure. This is not WWE.
Putting two progamers in a situation they need to play without having any chance to progress in the tournament is embarassing, it's a violence against them. They play to win and it is in their hearts, but when ou put them in a ridiculous situation like that, they need to pretend they are competing, they need to become actors, an this is shame.
Naniwa took a stand, and even if it was not the best one at that moment, he clearly took a stand to say he is not a clown, he is a competitor. He was true to his ideal and heart and now you are punishing him for being honest, to him and to us.
Me, and everyone that love Starcraft as a Sport, and not as a Show, support Naniwa, and taking his Code S seed arbitrarely as you did is an offense to everyone that loves esports. Sourcehttp://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=212717&cid=0&kind=1 I think this guy has a great argument. That is exactly what I've been saying some pages ago.
So... he was true to his ideal and his heart by not giving a shit and not even faintly trying to play?
Well. Then. I guess I know who I don't care about anymore.
I'd rather someone took a stand and played for professional pride so that they could leave with their held high having beaten Nestea and with a 1-3 record over a 0-4
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On December 15 2011 11:08 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:02 nickycakes wrote:On December 15 2011 10:52 synaptik wrote:
all you people threatening to not buy GSL tickets are hilarious. you're all going to be watching the rest of blizz cup, and you'll all be back for GSL jan. don't lie to yourself.
if anything GOMtv just got more respect from the rest of us for putting their foot down and making an example out of this kid. at least we won't be seeing dumb probe rushes anymore. I already charged back my purchase. Does that still qualify as "lying to myself"? You will most likely buy it once the season starts anyway. And if you think there's any significant amount of foreigners not buying tickets because of this, or even remotely comparable to how many koreans would've not bought them had gom let nanniwa get away with his behavior, you're delusional.
Did you read any posts about Koreans not purchasing tickets if Nani would've been allowed to play?
How can anyone use "Asian culture" as an argument. This is the GLOBAL Starcraft League; if they want people to respect the culture they should rename the tournament to Korean Starcraft League.
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On December 15 2011 11:25 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:21 Lorizean wrote:On December 15 2011 11:16 z0nk wrote:Programes are professional athletes, they play to compete, to win and to the Sport ideal.
They are not showmen, they are not there primarly to entertain the masses at our pleasure. This is not WWE.
Putting two progamers in a situation they need to play without having any chance to progress in the tournament is embarassing, it's a violence against them. They play to win and it is in their hearts, but when ou put them in a ridiculous situation like that, they need to pretend they are competing, they need to become actors, an this is shame.
Naniwa took a stand, and even if it was not the best one at that moment, he clearly took a stand to say he is not a clown, he is a competitor. He was true to his ideal and heart and now you are punishing him for being honest, to him and to us.
Me, and everyone that love Starcraft as a Sport, and not as a Show, support Naniwa, and taking his Code S seed arbitrarely as you did is an offense to everyone that loves esports. Sourcehttp://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=212717&cid=0&kind=1 I think this guy has a great argument. That is exactly what I've been saying some pages ago. I think everybody has their own "work-ethics" but if you truly feel like being that awesome competitor who wants to win and be the best, shouldn't you use every game to prove to the world and yourself that you can beat that opponent? Regardless of how much money or tournament standing is riding on this match? Especially with a developing rival like NesTea, shouldn't you have the pride to try and beat him? But he does want to be the best, he does work his ass off, he does have spirit, everyone knows this. He fucked up when he was already really down going into the match. You don't have to vilify him for it, not nearly to the extent the Korean community has. It really sounds more like everyone just wants Naniwa to have no personality and to be neutered for the sake of drama. Even scoots said it best. Your expectations of players are way too high.
Oh I wasn't trying to shit on Naniwa with my post.
I was just rebutting the view that Naniwa was taking some kind of stand to show the world how unjust the Blizzard cup group system is.
I also agree that this was blown way out of proportion. And there is a difference between not having personality and not doing stupid stuff like this (again, I don't think he did it with the purpose of being disrespectful or anything, he just didn't think a whole lot - maybe he should just act a tad less impulsive).
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On December 15 2011 11:16 z0nk wrote:Show nested quote +Programes are professional athletes, they play to compete, to win and to the Sport ideal.
They are not showmen, they are not there primarly to entertain the masses at our pleasure. This is not WWE.
Putting two progamers in a situation they need to play without having any chance to progress in the tournament is embarassing, it's a violence against them. They play to win and it is in their hearts, but when ou put them in a ridiculous situation like that, they need to pretend they are competing, they need to become actors, an this is shame.
Naniwa took a stand, and even if it was not the best one at that moment, he clearly took a stand to say he is not a clown, he is a competitor. He was true to his ideal and heart and now you are punishing him for being honest, to him and to us.
Me, and everyone that love Starcraft as a Sport, and not as a Show, support Naniwa, and taking his Code S seed arbitrarely as you did is an offense to everyone that loves esports. Sourcehttp://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=212717&cid=0&kind=1 I think this guy has a great argument. That is exactly what I've been saying some pages ago.
Major League Baseball and similar organizations would like to say hi, and that they disagree with you.
The end of the season for the MLB is a time when as many of 22 teams are playing with no chance of winning, or even affecting their final placement of the season. Teams like the Astros, Twins, Mariners and Orioles last year had more than a month's worth of games to play where absolutely nothing they did would mean anything (unless, of course, you count the Orioles playing the part of trollface to the Red Sox).
But even though these teams were statistically eliminated from any shot of a playoff spot, they kept playing. Why? Because that's their job. Because if you don't show up and put in everything you've got, you're going to get called out on it.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/t94QV.jpg)
