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On December 17 2011 09:33 Almetien wrote:
As a law graduate I'm actually amazed how little some people know about how international civil law treats such deals as MLG/GOM partnership and how they try to cover common sense with made up rules. This is quite obviously GOM's lost trial in any court with this case, be it korean or american, nothing to argue over here from law point of view assuming any competence of MLG side lawyers.
Thankfuly (for esports growth) this won't ever happen as there is too little to fight over, one thing I wonder however is if GOM actually sees how dumb their statements were and if they learn something (like respect towards partners, transparency of actions, lawfulness - things that repeatedly seems lacking from asian business culture) from this lesson.
Other than the fact that you say you are a law graduate and speak in the "law" point of view, I fail to understand what insight you bring that would help others understand why you think it would be Gom's lost trial over some statements being translated online.
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On December 17 2011 09:33 Almetien wrote:
As a law graduate I'm actually amazed how little some people know about how international civil law treats such deals as MLG/GOM partnership and how they try to cover common sense with made up rules. This is quite obviously GOM's lost trial in any court with this case, be it korean or american, nothing to argue over here from law point of view assuming any competence of MLG side lawyers.
Sorry if I sound stupid here but I'm a little lost (and don't be "amazed" people don't know their international civil law in business partnerships, everyone isn't a lawyer).
What is the case here, if Naniwa should get his Code S spot back? That only hurts Naniwa directly, are you saying he would win in court against GOM on that? And what are the made-up rules in GOM/MLG partnership?
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On December 17 2011 08:43 McFeser wrote:
^^Cool!
Some people like it so I guess you should keep writing that way. I'm an English major and write a lot so that was just my two cents.
Cool, I was an English major before switching to Psychology  keep doing you! Hope to see you around these forums more often.
Ian
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On December 17 2011 07:36 Achaia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 07:28 Almtom wrote:
I think boycotting GSL is the only way viewers can show their dislike for the horrible decisions and lies spread by GOM TV. Hmm, I wonder how one would show a dislike to players making stupid decisions like Naniwa? Who cares if Naniwa was officially offered a Code S spot initially or not? The fact is that the punishment they gave Naniwa is a slap on the wrist at best. All of these people who are so ready to boycott the GSL because someone got punished for being an asshole just frustrate the hell out of me.
If players dont make stupid decisions starcraft will to some degree become less entertaining.
Furthermore a player and à league cant be held to the same moral standards.
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On December 17 2011 09:33 Almetien wrote:
As a law graduate I'm actually amazed how little some people know about how international civil law treats such deals as MLG/GOM partnership and how they try to cover common sense with made up rules. This is quite obviously GOM's lost trial in any court with this case, be it korean or american, nothing to argue over here from law point of view assuming any competence of MLG side lawyers.
Thankfuly (for esports growth) this won't ever happen as there is too little to fight over, one thing I wonder however is if GOM actually sees how dumb their statements were and if they learn something (like respect towards partners, transparency of actions, lawfulness - things that repeatedly seems lacking from asian business culture) from this lesson.
Not sure what law school you went to but like a lot of self-proclaimed law graduates you are talking out your ass. Putting aside your racist comments at the end (nice btw, couldn't resist?), you are right that there is nothing to argue about because GOM is obviously not in violation of anything resembling a contractual obligation. Even talking about a hypothetical trial is hilarious, even more hilarious is the suggestion that MLG would be the one to take GOM to court (LOL what?)
The only real problem here is the absurd entitlement complex that some fans have regarding who gets to play in what tournament, as if anyone other than GOM gets to decide who is invited to play in their tournament. The only rules that exist are the ones that they say exist, it's really that simple, and if you don't like it then don't watch.
I've actually been impressed with how fair GOM has handled the whole situation...naniwa deserved a real punishment for his ridiculously offensive stunt (the biggest insult was to Nestea who was not "in" on it and was ready for a real game, meanwhile naniwa a-moves and takes his hands off the controls). The only punishment naniwa has received is actually a blessing because it takes the weight off his shoulders to perform well in Code S after going 0-10 in GSL so far.
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while i believe there is some form of contract involved (written or not) i think its foolish to believe that
a) korean law says x because the law of my country says x
b) we know more about a possibly existing contract than gom/naniwa since we dont even know
if naniwa was just invited..earned a spot..got kicked..etc
edit :
c) saying gom "lost a trial" in any way shape or form.
on a side note,i think players should sue tournaments that dont pay if possible/worth it.
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On December 17 2011 17:06 tyrless wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 09:33 Almetien wrote:
As a law graduate I'm actually amazed how little some people know about how international civil law treats such deals as MLG/GOM partnership and how they try to cover common sense with made up rules. This is quite obviously GOM's lost trial in any court with this case, be it korean or american, nothing to argue over here from law point of view assuming any competence of MLG side lawyers.
Thankfuly (for esports growth) this won't ever happen as there is too little to fight over, one thing I wonder however is if GOM actually sees how dumb their statements were and if they learn something (like respect towards partners, transparency of actions, lawfulness - things that repeatedly seems lacking from asian business culture) from this lesson. Not sure what law school you went to but like a lot of self-proclaimed law graduates you are talking out your ass. Putting aside your racist comments at the end (nice btw, couldn't resist?), you are right that there is nothing to argue about because GOM is obviously not in violation of anything resembling a contractual obligation. Even talking about a hypothetical trial is hilarious, even more hilarious is the suggestion that MLG would be the one to take GOM to court (LOL what?) The only real problem here is the absurd entitlement complex that some fans have regarding who gets to play in what tournament, as if anyone other than GOM gets to decide who is invited to play in their tournament. The only rules that exist are the ones that they say exist, it's really that simple, and if you don't like it then don't watch. I've actually been impressed with how fair GOM has handled the whole situation...naniwa deserved a real punishment for his ridiculously offensive stunt (the biggest insult was to Nestea who was not "in" on it and was ready for a real game, meanwhile naniwa a-moves and takes his hands off the controls). The only punishment naniwa has received is actually a blessing because it takes the weight off his shoulders to perform well in Code S after going 0-10 in GSL so far.
I dont get how his statement is racist. Sure he's only law experience comes from watching Ally McBeal and judge Judy but claiming that someone is à racist is pretty harah. All he said is that Gom is a bunch of lying and cheating scumbags and we know by now that this is true.
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On December 17 2011 08:49 polycom wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 08:34 farnham wrote:On December 17 2011 08:20 polycom wrote:
This is so wrong, Naniwa actually acted JUST LIKE a pro athelete would. Let me explain:
When the lakers secure 1st in the west and only have a few weeks of games left to close out the season, Kobe and other top players did not play the games... maybe just a few minutes to stay in the rhythm. But overall, if the game did not make a difference, they did not play.
It is GOMTV's fault for designing such a system where the games do not matter. Most pro atheletes play the game because they want to be the best, they do not play for the fans.. that's the reality of it all. To be a pro gamer is to be the best of the best, and naniwa has proven that time and time again. Being competitive myself, I'm saden that GOMTV has blamed Naniwa for their flawed tournament structure. Naniwa may be more emotional than other players, but thats what drives e-sports, raw emotional. Do you expect Kobe to play a regular game after he got knocked out of the playoffs? No.. that would be INSANE!
This game is mentally taxing. If you expect a pro gamer to play a game although they are already knocked out, then expect a shitty 6 pool, 4 gate, or 2 rax. I'm GLAD that naniwa cut the bullshit formality and made it less painful to watch. naniwa could have just decided not to participate knowing the format (and the format was known well before they started blizzard cup) and the fact that there was a chance that he would have to play even if there was no financial adventage. naniwa took the risk when he entered the tournament and the worst case scenario happened. still he had to swallow the bitter pill as he was contractually obligated to play the game.. If you are going to compare pro atheletes with pro gamers, might as well do it right. And knowing the format before hand has nothing to do with this. You expect him to sit there and consider the chance of playing the last game if he goes winless? Thats not how highly competitive people think, they are only concerned of winning. I wish instead of probe rushing he would have just "gg'd" at the start and quit.
And he did play the game, just like the lakers have to play the last game of the season, but without their stars of course. [/QUOTE]
he openly said that he played with the intention not to win
in your example the lakers as a team used their unexperienced players. They didnt openly disregard the very spirit of sports. your example is flawed because you cant say beforehand that player x will perform worse then player y even if player y is a sports legend and player x is a rookie. you can say however that sending your probes is just throwing the game. also naniwa openly admitted this while i dont think that the lakers said that they have thrown the game and never intended to win.
knowing the format before it has to do everything with it. he entered into a contractual relationship and pissed all over his obligations he had to fulfill. he agreed to enter beforehand even though there was a off chance that he would end up in this situation and when he knew he would had to fulfill the bitter side of the deal he just didnt. thats not really demonstrating reliability
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@farnham
using a b/c-team is just as openly telling you they dont give a fuck about that game.
edit :
because if they did give a fuck - they would not use bad players unless they are sure they will
win anyways./edit
at best they want to check if some players became better.
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On December 17 2011 17:46 Caryc wrote:
@farnham
using a b/c-team is just as openly telling you they dont give a fuck about that game.
edit :
because if they did give a fuck - they would not use bad players unless they are sure they will
win anyways./edit
at best they want to check if some players became better.
And yet those B and C players will be sure to play to there best to try and earn favour with the coach.
The team as a whole may not be in it to win per se but the players on the field will do there job and try to win as much as any other game.
You think anyone on a professional team actualy stands there and thinks "I will not stop my opponent from scoring this game"?
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On December 17 2011 17:46 Caryc wrote:
@farnham
using a b/c-team is just as openly telling you they dont give a fuck about that game.
edit :
because if they did give a fuck - they would not use bad players unless they are sure they will
win anyways./edit
at best they want to check if some players became better.
i dont agree with this
there are many C to B tier level players that turned out to be Aces in a matter of months. Thomas Müller comes to mind who was a Minor League player and skyrocketed into a superstar in matter of months.
This is true in pretty much every sport.
Also there is no open statement of the Lakers management that they have thrown the game
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On December 17 2011 17:52 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 17:46 Caryc wrote:
@farnham
using a b/c-team is just as openly telling you they dont give a fuck about that game.
edit :
because if they did give a fuck - they would not use bad players unless they are sure they will
win anyways./edit
at best they want to check if some players became better. And yet those B and C players will be sure to play to there best to try and earn favour with the coach. The team as a whole may not be in it to win per se but the players on the field will do there job and try to win as much as any other game.You think anyone on a professional team actualy stands there and thinks "I will not stop my opponent from scoring this game"?
this is true as well
it could be a brilliant strategy to use unexperienced players because they might be more motivated
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well i guess i have to agree on some points
but i think its not totally uncommon that people
just dont care and dont give their best in
professional sports.
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On December 17 2011 17:58 Caryc wrote:
well i guess i have to agree on some points
but i think its not totally uncommon that people
just dont care and dont give their best in
professional sports.
but not as openly as naniwa did
also usually people dont admit it afterwards
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I'm sorry I jumped out of my ass with law graduate stuff (it's true btw) etc, I was just trying to say that considering GOM/MLG partnership (because I assume it was written - maybe that's actually naive) it's quite obvious that MLG could've pursued their cause in court and most likely win it, yet again: not that they should or there is something really worth fighting for. Whatever, I guess we haven't even seen any document that describes this partnership, nor will I try to describe why would GOM lost, no point/time to do it. It was silly for me to do such assumptions and I apologize . I'm not by any means trying to defend Naniwa or say what he/mlg should do, just from strict point of contract law actions of GOM partner are not lawful and surely not handled with good will, considering global miscommunication.
Not trying to be racist or anything but if GOM can give us the definition of progamer, I guess we can act on the same level and point out the definition of good business practice and how one-sided changes to agreements arent really acceptable.
Edit: Ok, some clarification after reading above posts: I think that there are two different but connected cases here, one is MLG fault of making whole foreigner community, casters hosting their event, admins and players themselves think there is Code S spot on the line, no matter if this was based on plain straight GOM lying, not precise enough written contract or miscommunication between partners. Both MLG and GOM are business organisations that are responsible for their statements and are expected to have better knowledge about terms they negotiated than average player/viewer - this is nothing more nothing less than customer protection from company giving out fake informations about their product (which MLG Prov was).
Second part is GOM's fault on this (if there is any) miscommunication/lying/not precising the contract when misinformation occured and how they handled their international partnership. There is obviously language barrier but this shouldn't be considered any problem due to commercial character of their agreement (where we assume both sides are professional and know what they are doing). Many headlines announced Code S spot for Naniwa over different media in different countries and I'm positive that it'd be easy to prove that GOM knew of the miscommunication but didnt bother to correct it. Maybe because they asumed the outcome would be the same (inviting naniwa to code s anyway, just based on different rule) so noone would bother, maybe because they havent informed MLG in time and afterwards would just look foolish to revise their statement (as it looks now), maybe because they dont care/respect/have the understanding of their partner enough - it's not up to me to judge why they did this, the fact is that not correcting global misinformation in global media is a sign of bad will considering they could very, very easily notice it.
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On December 17 2011 17:37 Almtom wrote:
I dont get how his statement is racist. Sure he's only law experience comes from watching Ally McBeal and judge Judy but claiming that someone is à racist is pretty harah. All he said is that Gom is a bunch of lying and cheating scumbags and we know by now that this is true.
On December 17 2011 09:33 Almetien wrote:
Thankfuly (for esports growth) this won't ever happen as there is too little to fight over, one thing I wonder however is if GOM actually sees how dumb their statements were and if they learn something (like respect towards partners, transparency of actions, lawfulness - things that repeatedly seems lacking from asian business culture) from this lesson.
Not that I'm deeply offended or anything, that's just what it referred to.
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On December 17 2011 18:03 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 17:58 Caryc wrote:
well i guess i have to agree on some points
but i think its not totally uncommon that people
just dont care and dont give their best in
professional sports. but not as openly as naniwa did also usually people dont admit it afterwards
ye he got the balls to don't lie about it.
blame GSL for having poor formats and forcing people to play meaningless games, which is stupid. and should be handled like Naniwa did until they are able to make better formats.
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On December 17 2011 20:37 FirstGear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 17:37 Almtom wrote:
I dont get how his statement is racist. Sure he's only law experience comes from watching Ally McBeal and judge Judy but claiming that someone is à racist is pretty harah. All he said is that Gom is a bunch of lying and cheating scumbags and we know by now that this is true. Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 09:33 Almetien wrote:
Thankfuly (for esports growth) this won't ever happen as there is too little to fight over, one thing I wonder however is if GOM actually sees how dumb their statements were and if they learn something (like respect towards partners, transparency of actions, lawfulness - things that repeatedly seems lacking from asian business culture) from this lesson. Not that I'm deeply offended anything, that's just what it referred to.
I didnt want to sound racist, I was just implying that asians have different approach on business culture (and culture overall, in fact) than western countries in some areas (and this is huge generalisation ofc because there surely are examples saying otherwise). This comes from my employer's experience, he imports stuff from china/korea/japan (swords, managa stuff etc) and I saw many emails regarding precising international deals where some things that were obvious to us (like written confirmations on any changes of circumstances) were not to them. This goes both ways of course, I'm sure western business mentality lacks some pros of asian one. It's just that they are different, almost same as "progamer definitions". GOM want's to educate foreigners, well, in fact GOM has much to learn from foreigners themselves.
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On December 17 2011 20:43 The Void wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 18:03 farnham wrote:On December 17 2011 17:58 Caryc wrote:
well i guess i have to agree on some points
but i think its not totally uncommon that people
just dont care and dont give their best in
professional sports. but not as openly as naniwa did also usually people dont admit it afterwards ye he got the balls to don't lie about it. blame GSL for having poor formats and forcing people to play meaningless games, which is stupid. and should be handled like Naniwa did until they are able to make better formats.
no i blame naniwa for entering such poor tournament and shitting all over it once he saw no advantage for him in playing disregarding the fact that he had obligations to fulfill
just dont participate in the gsl if you dont like the format. dont enter and shti all over it once you entered
simple as that
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EPT
