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On December 17 2011 20:11 Almetien wrote:
I'm sorry I jumped out of my ass with law graduate stuff (it's true btw) etc, I was just trying to say that considering GOM/MLG partnership (because I assume it was written - maybe that's actually naive) it's quite obvious that MLG could've pursued their cause in court and most likely win it, yet again: not that they should or there is something really worth fighting for. Whatever, I guess we haven't even seen any document that describes this partnership, nor will I try to describe why would GOM lost, no point/time to do it. It was silly for me to do such assumptions and I apologize . I'm not by any means trying to defend Naniwa or say what he/mlg should do, just from strict point of contract law actions of GOM partner are not lawful and surely not handled with good will, considering global miscommunication.
and what advantage would they have in doing that ? MLG was not as big as it became before the koreans joined in masses. they got a lot of attention due to the deal and it would be fatal for them to get into bad terms with GSL.
and even if they actually sue gom to give naniwa the spot instead of sen or idra there is a high chance that they will not win.
as I already stated the behavior that naniwa showed constitutes a contractual breach and even if the right to enter code s was not a result out of the contractual relationship between naniwa and gsl but rather a result out of the deal between gsl and mlg (제삼자를 위한 계약, contract with for the benefit of a third party) naniwa still has quasi contractual obligations to gsl which he breached due to his behavior
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On December 17 2011 21:12 masakenji wrote:
GAME 7 BABY!
wrong thread
this is the thread about the real winner of blizzard cup
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On December 17 2011 21:20 farnham wrote:wrong thread this is the thread about the real winner of blizzard cup
sorry, i'll make sure to lawyer up when i post next time 
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On December 17 2011 21:19 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 20:11 Almetien wrote:
I'm sorry I jumped out of my ass with law graduate stuff (it's true btw) etc, I was just trying to say that considering GOM/MLG partnership (because I assume it was written - maybe that's actually naive) it's quite obvious that MLG could've pursued their cause in court and most likely win it, yet again: not that they should or there is something really worth fighting for. Whatever, I guess we haven't even seen any document that describes this partnership, nor will I try to describe why would GOM lost, no point/time to do it. It was silly for me to do such assumptions and I apologize . I'm not by any means trying to defend Naniwa or say what he/mlg should do, just from strict point of contract law actions of GOM partner are not lawful and surely not handled with good will, considering global miscommunication. and what advantage would they have in doing that ? MLG was not as big as it became before the koreans joined in masses. they got a lot of attention due to the deal and it would be fatal for them to get into bad terms with GSL. and even if they actually sue gom to give naniwa the spot instead of sen or idra there is a high chance that they will not win. as I already stated the behavior that naniwa showed constitutes a contractual breach and even if the right to enter code s was not a result out of the contractual relationship between naniwa and gsl but rather a result out of the deal between gsl and mlg (제삼자를 위한 계약, contract with for the benefit of a third party) naniwa still has quasi contractual obligations to gsl which he breached due to his behavior
What does MLG have to lose? They already lost face because of GOM and the deal they had was for 2011 and now GOM are gonna pick code s seeds themselfs based on who knows what criteria. For all we know a rich team can probably buy a spot in code s now since skill and results no longer are the deciding factors. Koreans will keep coming to big euorpean/na events untill (not unlikely lol) GOM force the players to sign a contract, agreeing to not participate in any other tournament.
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On December 17 2011 21:05 Almetien wrote:
Thankfuly (for esports growth) this won't ever happen as there is too little to fight over, one thing I wonder however is if GOM actually sees how dumb their statements were and if they learn something (like respect towards partners, transparency of actions, lawfulness - things that repeatedly seems lacking from asian business culture) from this lesson.
On December 17 2011 09:33 Almetien wrote:
I saw many emails regarding precising international deals where some things that were obvious to us (like written confirmations on any changes of circumstances) were not to them.
Pretty big accusations to make against business culture in Asia based on two examples. Making big negative generalisations against a broad ethnic group based on a few personal experiences.. yea pretty much the definitions of racism.
and can people stop with these creative sports analogies already?!? "##%¤/?"#¤%!
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After reading pages of people continuing to quote the MLG announcement about the trading program I kinda feel the need to point out that a statement by one company in no way is a contract. . .
It doesn't matter what MLG posted on there site at some point in time, what matters in the contract that was drawn up with GOMtv and the clauses that they have in it for termination(which would exist) of awards and even what those awards are. As we know GOM and MLG are both changing formats they could have easily had the clause that they can substitute another tournament for the code S spot(IE the Blizz Cup) and were still going to give Nani a code S spot for his winning MLG(but this would be a merit spot) hence the miss communication with MLG and fans etc. . . in reality if Nani had not acted like a child he wouldn't be in this situation.
All of the people on the Nani bandwagon defending him and hating on GOM are doing nothing to help him, or esports in general. He made a mistake, he apologized for it, let him learn from his mistake and move on. Be thankful that he is not a Korean as you would probably never see him in the scene again. Attempting to blame GOM for actions he pretty much forced them to take makes foreigner fans look childish.
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On December 18 2011 07:54 Nonvidius wrote:
After reading pages of people continuing to quote the MLG announcement about the trading program I kinda feel the need to point out that a statement by one company in no way is a contract. . .
It doesn't matter what MLG posted on there site at some point in time, what matters in the contract that was drawn up with GOMtv and the clauses that they have in it for termination(which would exist) of awards and even what those awards are. As we know GOM and MLG are both changing formats they could have easily had the clause that they can substitute another tournament for the code S spot(IE the Blizz Cup) and were still going to give Nani a code S spot for his winning MLG(but this would be a merit spot) hence the miss communication with MLG and fans etc. . . in reality if Nani had not acted like a child he wouldn't be in this situation.
All of the people on the Nani bandwagon defending him and hating on GOM are doing nothing to help him, or esports in general. He made a mistake, he apologized for it, let him learn from his mistake and move on. Be thankful that he is not a Korean as you would probably never see him in the scene again. Attempting to blame GOM for actions he pretty much forced them to take makes foreigner fans look childish.
It's not like Naniwa broke some written law somewhere either. This was purely punishment on ethics. State your rules and players will abide by them or suffer the consequences.
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On December 18 2011 08:29 KingAce wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 07:54 Nonvidius wrote:
After reading pages of people continuing to quote the MLG announcement about the trading program I kinda feel the need to point out that a statement by one company in no way is a contract. . .
It doesn't matter what MLG posted on there site at some point in time, what matters in the contract that was drawn up with GOMtv and the clauses that they have in it for termination(which would exist) of awards and even what those awards are. As we know GOM and MLG are both changing formats they could have easily had the clause that they can substitute another tournament for the code S spot(IE the Blizz Cup) and were still going to give Nani a code S spot for his winning MLG(but this would be a merit spot) hence the miss communication with MLG and fans etc. . . in reality if Nani had not acted like a child he wouldn't be in this situation.
All of the people on the Nani bandwagon defending him and hating on GOM are doing nothing to help him, or esports in general. He made a mistake, he apologized for it, let him learn from his mistake and move on. Be thankful that he is not a Korean as you would probably never see him in the scene again. Attempting to blame GOM for actions he pretty much forced them to take makes foreigner fans look childish. It's not like Naniwa broke some written law somewhere either. This was purely punishment on ethics. State your rules and players will abide by them or suffer the consequences.
havn't you noticed? ethics play a big role.
you can't argue he didn't piss people off, he did. you can argue this doesn't work on legal levels but whatever, its not like they banned him. gom said it influenced their decision on code s seeding for naniwa, they didn't take anything away from him. you can take that as a lie or not, you're free to speculate.
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On December 18 2011 08:29 KingAce wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 07:54 Nonvidius wrote:
After reading pages of people continuing to quote the MLG announcement about the trading program I kinda feel the need to point out that a statement by one company in no way is a contract. . .
It doesn't matter what MLG posted on there site at some point in time, what matters in the contract that was drawn up with GOMtv and the clauses that they have in it for termination(which would exist) of awards and even what those awards are. As we know GOM and MLG are both changing formats they could have easily had the clause that they can substitute another tournament for the code S spot(IE the Blizz Cup) and were still going to give Nani a code S spot for his winning MLG(but this would be a merit spot) hence the miss communication with MLG and fans etc. . . in reality if Nani had not acted like a child he wouldn't be in this situation.
All of the people on the Nani bandwagon defending him and hating on GOM are doing nothing to help him, or esports in general. He made a mistake, he apologized for it, let him learn from his mistake and move on. Be thankful that he is not a Korean as you would probably never see him in the scene again. Attempting to blame GOM for actions he pretty much forced them to take makes foreigner fans look childish. It's not like Naniwa broke some written law somewhere either. This was purely punishment on ethics. State your rules and players will abide by them or suffer the consequences.
That is a horrible argument, it sounds like some middle school kid trying to get out of detention.Do you really need a rule that says "you will not throw games, or refuse to play out games that you are paid for or disrespect the tournament organizers your opponent and all the viewers by refusing to play." It's common sense that throwing a game like that is wrong and against the tournament. Honestly, the nani fans should consider themselves lucky that he's a foreigner and that GOM went easy on him because he's a foreigner. If he was a korean I guarantee the punishment would've been much more harsh, and not just a slight slap on the wrist.
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On December 18 2011 07:54 Nonvidius wrote:
After reading pages of people continuing to quote the MLG announcement about the trading program I kinda feel the need to point out that a statement by one company in no way is a contract. . .
It doesn't matter what MLG posted on there site at some point in time, what matters in the contract that was drawn up with GOMtv and the clauses that they have in it for termination(which would exist) of awards and even what those awards are. As we know GOM and MLG are both changing formats they could have easily had the clause that they can substitute another tournament for the code S spot(IE the Blizz Cup) and were still going to give Nani a code S spot for his winning MLG(but this would be a merit spot) hence the miss communication with MLG and fans etc. . . in reality if Nani had not acted like a child he wouldn't be in this situation.
All of the people on the Nani bandwagon defending him and hating on GOM are doing nothing to help him, or esports in general. He made a mistake, he apologized for it, let him learn from his mistake and move on. Be thankful that he is not a Korean as you would probably never see him in the scene again. Attempting to blame GOM for actions he pretty much forced them to take makes foreigner fans look childish.
You are totally missing the point. If Gom changed the rules under the contract period then why the hell not did they inform the community, Naniwa or MLG for that matter wheb people write article after article about how Naniwa got Code s?? How do you explain that smart ass
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Good. Fuck Naniwa, the guy has always been an immature asshole, and evidently hasn't changed at all. He's a good player, but not so amazing that the GSL will somehow be hurt by his absence.
User was warned for this post
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I hate Naniwa's spirit as a player but he earned his slot. He should be able to prove in code S that this 7 probes rush was a mistake... :/
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On December 18 2011 08:47 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 08:29 KingAce wrote:On December 18 2011 07:54 Nonvidius wrote:
After reading pages of people continuing to quote the MLG announcement about the trading program I kinda feel the need to point out that a statement by one company in no way is a contract. . .
It doesn't matter what MLG posted on there site at some point in time, what matters in the contract that was drawn up with GOMtv and the clauses that they have in it for termination(which would exist) of awards and even what those awards are. As we know GOM and MLG are both changing formats they could have easily had the clause that they can substitute another tournament for the code S spot(IE the Blizz Cup) and were still going to give Nani a code S spot for his winning MLG(but this would be a merit spot) hence the miss communication with MLG and fans etc. . . in reality if Nani had not acted like a child he wouldn't be in this situation.
All of the people on the Nani bandwagon defending him and hating on GOM are doing nothing to help him, or esports in general. He made a mistake, he apologized for it, let him learn from his mistake and move on. Be thankful that he is not a Korean as you would probably never see him in the scene again. Attempting to blame GOM for actions he pretty much forced them to take makes foreigner fans look childish. It's not like Naniwa broke some written law somewhere either. This was purely punishment on ethics. State your rules and players will abide by them or suffer the consequences. That is a horrible argument, it sounds like some middle school kid trying to get out of detention.Do you really need a rule that says "you will not throw games, or refuse to play out games that you are paid for or disrespect the tournament organizers your opponent and all the viewers by refusing to play." It's common sense that throwing a game like that is wrong and against the tournament. Honestly, the nani fans should consider themselves lucky that he's a foreigner and that GOM went easy on him because he's a foreigner. If he was a korean I guarantee the punishment would've been much more harsh, and not just a slight slap on the wrist.
Hm, while I accept and to a large extent agree, on the punishment, I am not sure I buy into the whole Korean is harsher-argument (or for that matter that Naniwa got punished harder for not being Korean)
What sanctions for which offenses has koreans been given thus far?
1. Dragon, "admitted" to stream-cheating outside GSL, kicked from team, self-imposed exclusion from GSL (1-2months), no official ban.
2. Choya, ladder abuse, 1 year ban from GSTL, no consequences for GSL.
3. CoCa, colluded to fix a tournament game outside GSL with Byun, Coca gave up Code S-spot, Byun & Coca, temporary but not set, team-imposed tournament bans, no official sanctions?
In the case of CoCa&Byun the extent of the punishment is not yet known.
It is not that big difference in all honesty.
My interpretation is that Naniwa got, more or less, the punishment a Korean would have received.
If he got less, it was because he was not on a Korean team which would have imposed own sanctions, to maybe strike a deal with GSL to avoid official punishment and save some face.
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On December 18 2011 20:07 StatorFlux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 08:47 hunts wrote:On December 18 2011 08:29 KingAce wrote:On December 18 2011 07:54 Nonvidius wrote:
After reading pages of people continuing to quote the MLG announcement about the trading program I kinda feel the need to point out that a statement by one company in no way is a contract. . .
It doesn't matter what MLG posted on there site at some point in time, what matters in the contract that was drawn up with GOMtv and the clauses that they have in it for termination(which would exist) of awards and even what those awards are. As we know GOM and MLG are both changing formats they could have easily had the clause that they can substitute another tournament for the code S spot(IE the Blizz Cup) and were still going to give Nani a code S spot for his winning MLG(but this would be a merit spot) hence the miss communication with MLG and fans etc. . . in reality if Nani had not acted like a child he wouldn't be in this situation.
All of the people on the Nani bandwagon defending him and hating on GOM are doing nothing to help him, or esports in general. He made a mistake, he apologized for it, let him learn from his mistake and move on. Be thankful that he is not a Korean as you would probably never see him in the scene again. Attempting to blame GOM for actions he pretty much forced them to take makes foreigner fans look childish. It's not like Naniwa broke some written law somewhere either. This was purely punishment on ethics. State your rules and players will abide by them or suffer the consequences. That is a horrible argument, it sounds like some middle school kid trying to get out of detention.Do you really need a rule that says "you will not throw games, or refuse to play out games that you are paid for or disrespect the tournament organizers your opponent and all the viewers by refusing to play." It's common sense that throwing a game like that is wrong and against the tournament. Honestly, the nani fans should consider themselves lucky that he's a foreigner and that GOM went easy on him because he's a foreigner. If he was a korean I guarantee the punishment would've been much more harsh, and not just a slight slap on the wrist. Hm, while I accept and to a large extent agree, on the punishment, I am not sure I buy into the whole Korean is harsher-argument (or for that matter that Naniwa got punished harder for not being Korean) What sanctions for which offenses has koreans been given thus far? 1. Dragon, "admitted" to stream-cheating outside GSL, kicked from team, self-imposed exclusion from GSL (1-2months), no official ban. 2. Choya, ladder abuse, 1 year ban from GSTL, no consequences for GSL. 3. CoCa, colluded to fix a tournament game outside GSL with Byun, Coca gave up Code S-spot, Byun & Coca, temporary but not set, team-imposed tournament bans, no official sanctions? In the case of CoCa&Byun the extent of the punishment is not yet known. It is not that big difference in all honesty. My interpretation is that Naniwa got, more or less, the punishment a Korean would have received. If he got less, it was because he was not on a Korean team which would have imposed own sanctions, to maybe strike a deal with GSL to avoid official punishment and save some face.
In all of the above there was some form of cheating. What Naniwa did was not cheating. He robbed the fans of 10-15 min of fake entertainment. Then was honest about it something which seems to be a crime.
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On December 18 2011 08:47 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 08:29 KingAce wrote:On December 18 2011 07:54 Nonvidius wrote:
After reading pages of people continuing to quote the MLG announcement about the trading program I kinda feel the need to point out that a statement by one company in no way is a contract. . .
It doesn't matter what MLG posted on there site at some point in time, what matters in the contract that was drawn up with GOMtv and the clauses that they have in it for termination(which would exist) of awards and even what those awards are. As we know GOM and MLG are both changing formats they could have easily had the clause that they can substitute another tournament for the code S spot(IE the Blizz Cup) and were still going to give Nani a code S spot for his winning MLG(but this would be a merit spot) hence the miss communication with MLG and fans etc. . . in reality if Nani had not acted like a child he wouldn't be in this situation.
All of the people on the Nani bandwagon defending him and hating on GOM are doing nothing to help him, or esports in general. He made a mistake, he apologized for it, let him learn from his mistake and move on. Be thankful that he is not a Korean as you would probably never see him in the scene again. Attempting to blame GOM for actions he pretty much forced them to take makes foreigner fans look childish. It's not like Naniwa broke some written law somewhere either. This was purely punishment on ethics. State your rules and players will abide by them or suffer the consequences. That is a horrible argument, it sounds like some middle school kid trying to get out of detention.Do you really need a rule that says "you will not throw games, or refuse to play out games that you are paid for or disrespect the tournament organizers your opponent and all the viewers by refusing to play." It's common sense that throwing a game like that is wrong and against the tournament. Honestly, the nani fans should consider themselves lucky that he's a foreigner and that GOM went easy on him because he's a foreigner. If he was a korean I guarantee the punishment would've been much more harsh, and not just a slight slap on the wrist.
I agree that naniwa got off light if you think about the potential damage he didn't realize he caused...
Blizzard takes money from foreign tourneys, but they probably lose money investing heavily into the korean SC2 scene... which is fledgling atm. Gsl although the biggest sc2 tournament, is also a fledgling esports endeavor of gom, and they have to match up to the expectations of korean starcraft fans whose standard of professionalism has been set by kespa and bw.
Throwing a match is obviously going to get you in trouble....
... oh and to people complaining about the match being 'useless', pretty sure it was only played out because it was hyped up so much in the player interviews that some korean fans were undoubtedly looking forward to it-- it's called fan service. >.<;;
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On December 18 2011 20:18 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 20:14 Learion wrote:On December 18 2011 20:07 StatorFlux wrote:On December 18 2011 08:47 hunts wrote:On December 18 2011 08:29 KingAce wrote:On December 18 2011 07:54 Nonvidius wrote:
After reading pages of people continuing to quote the MLG announcement about the trading program I kinda feel the need to point out that a statement by one company in no way is a contract. . .
It doesn't matter what MLG posted on there site at some point in time, what matters in the contract that was drawn up with GOMtv and the clauses that they have in it for termination(which would exist) of awards and even what those awards are. As we know GOM and MLG are both changing formats they could have easily had the clause that they can substitute another tournament for the code S spot(IE the Blizz Cup) and were still going to give Nani a code S spot for his winning MLG(but this would be a merit spot) hence the miss communication with MLG and fans etc. . . in reality if Nani had not acted like a child he wouldn't be in this situation.
All of the people on the Nani bandwagon defending him and hating on GOM are doing nothing to help him, or esports in general. He made a mistake, he apologized for it, let him learn from his mistake and move on. Be thankful that he is not a Korean as you would probably never see him in the scene again. Attempting to blame GOM for actions he pretty much forced them to take makes foreigner fans look childish. It's not like Naniwa broke some written law somewhere either. This was purely punishment on ethics. State your rules and players will abide by them or suffer the consequences. That is a horrible argument, it sounds like some middle school kid trying to get out of detention.Do you really need a rule that says "you will not throw games, or refuse to play out games that you are paid for or disrespect the tournament organizers your opponent and all the viewers by refusing to play." It's common sense that throwing a game like that is wrong and against the tournament. Honestly, the nani fans should consider themselves lucky that he's a foreigner and that GOM went easy on him because he's a foreigner. If he was a korean I guarantee the punishment would've been much more harsh, and not just a slight slap on the wrist. Hm, while I accept and to a large extent agree, on the punishment, I am not sure I buy into the whole Korean is harsher-argument (or for that matter that Naniwa got punished harder for not being Korean) What sanctions for which offenses has koreans been given thus far? 1. Dragon, "admitted" to stream-cheating outside GSL, kicked from team, self-imposed exclusion from GSL (1-2months), no official ban. 2. Choya, ladder abuse, 1 year ban from GSTL, no consequences for GSL. 3. CoCa, colluded to fix a tournament game outside GSL with Byun, Coca gave up Code S-spot, Byun & Coca, temporary but not set, team-imposed tournament bans, no official sanctions? In the case of CoCa&Byun the extent of the punishment is not yet known. It is not that big difference in all honesty. My interpretation is that Naniwa got, more or less, the punishment a Korean would have received. If he got less, it was because he was not on a Korean team which would have imposed own sanctions, to maybe strike a deal with GSL to avoid official punishment and save some face. In all of the above there was some form of cheating. What Naniwa did was not cheating. He robbed the fans of 10-15 min of fake entertainment. Then was honest about it something which seems to be a crime. GOM's punishment for naniwa is "okay". GOM's way of handling their partnership, taking away code S spots from MLG (not talking about taking it away from naniwa) after the event has been played, lying, is not okay.
I know a lot of people thinks it is an "okey" punishment but I don't I agree, I think it is way over the top.
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On December 18 2011 08:47 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 08:29 KingAce wrote:On December 18 2011 07:54 Nonvidius wrote:
After reading pages of people continuing to quote the MLG announcement about the trading program I kinda feel the need to point out that a statement by one company in no way is a contract. . .
It doesn't matter what MLG posted on there site at some point in time, what matters in the contract that was drawn up with GOMtv and the clauses that they have in it for termination(which would exist) of awards and even what those awards are. As we know GOM and MLG are both changing formats they could have easily had the clause that they can substitute another tournament for the code S spot(IE the Blizz Cup) and were still going to give Nani a code S spot for his winning MLG(but this would be a merit spot) hence the miss communication with MLG and fans etc. . . in reality if Nani had not acted like a child he wouldn't be in this situation.
All of the people on the Nani bandwagon defending him and hating on GOM are doing nothing to help him, or esports in general. He made a mistake, he apologized for it, let him learn from his mistake and move on. Be thankful that he is not a Korean as you would probably never see him in the scene again. Attempting to blame GOM for actions he pretty much forced them to take makes foreigner fans look childish. It's not like Naniwa broke some written law somewhere either. This was purely punishment on ethics. State your rules and players will abide by them or suffer the consequences. havn't you noticed? ethics play a big role. you can't argue he didn't piss people off, he did. you can argue this doesn't work on legal levels but whatever, its not like they banned him. gom said it influenced their decision on code s seeding for naniwa, they didn't take anything away from him. you can take that as a lie or not, you're free to speculate.
Thats what he is saying. GOM didnt break a rule, neither did Naniwa. Naniwa is being flamed and punished because of his unprofessional actions which pissed off alot of people. So while GOM didnt break any rules either, they however did piss off a lot of people aswell by acting unprofessional regarding their business with MLG, the community and the players attending MLG. GOM has evidently pissed of a lot off people, wouldnt you agree?
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I believe the punishment was harsh considering the rule was unwritten. As a fan, I am highly disappointed. I also find this explanation inadequate and unsatisfactory. I dislike the "bait and switch" GOM used regarding MLG Providence seedings, I find it highly dishonest, and I greatly dislike the nebulous and subjective criteria GOM will use to select Code S seeds in the future. I distrust GOMTV because of the incident. Although I had previously been a regular subscriber to GOM for the GSL streams, will not be subscribing to the GSL seasons in the future. There are other tournaments (MLG, Dreamhack, etc) which I would rather use my limited funds to support.
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EPT
