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Please discuss IdrA and Sen in Code S January in this thread. |
On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner.
Um Jinro fell out of Code S on his own... Idra left. I'm not saying the logic that GOM should give him back a Code S spot makes sense but you're analogy doesn't make sense.
1) Of course it's a business decision. GOM isn't exactly swimming in money. Idra in Code S = way more viewers = $$$$. Sure it sucks that it's that way but that's life.
2) Idra and Sen are pretty damn comparable (International ELO of 2263 vs 2282, not a huge difference). Both are very skilled players. Also Idra's won a couple of tournaments (the ASUS All-Stars one and IEM Guangzhou) - it's not like he's been shitting it up.
3) I think (no quote though) that Stephano said he wasn't really interested in GSL long-term. No clue if it's actually true.
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On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner.
you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments.
i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots.
as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we?
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On December 20 2011 09:24 ThePlayer33 wrote:
sen came 3rd at blizzcon so thats reasonable for him to make code s.
idra won asus rog, iem and 4th at orlando but its totally irrelevant.
they should either give code s to the next ranking foreign in blizzcon who is dimaga, or the next ranking foreign player in mlg providence who is haypro(idra is after haypro).
what i really want to know, though, is how the korean fans react to this whole thing
wait, you think that haypro should get the spot over idra? lol. no disrespect to haypro, but how many times has he tried to qualify and failed? if he deserved the spot, he would have been able to achieve the spot through his many attempts. idra did make it to code s (albeit in an easier environment) and kept it for multiple seasons; something haypro wasnt able to do. idra may not make it this season, but his past performance at GSL has shown he is a much better pick for the invite than haypro.
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On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we?
Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2.
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I think idra and sen are underqualified for code S
dont get me wrong, they are both spectacular players, but they have critical flaws
Idra needs to cheese more so that people will play honest against him. All to often you will see someone getting an edge on him because htey are playing against idra, not becaus ehtey are playing against a zerg that has every zerg strategy at their disposal.
Sen has a critical flaw in the sense that he falls apart late game. I have seen him take a commanding lead on a ton of games only to throw it away in the mid-late game by not expanding or takign advantage of his situation.
Hopefulyl i am wrong about this, and hopefully they just dont get right down to code a (where I think they belong), but that is my guess as to how this will end up.
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On December 20 2011 09:39 MrSalamandra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we? Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2.
his stats are good, the two games he won were not.
vs. hero. it was a joke. hero did a garbage rush that was shut down with little effort, and then stephano rolled over him with mass roach.
vs. DRG. DRG was a joke. DRG went an all-in ling bling style, and Stephano held it off. It was a good job by Stephano holding it off, but it was just preventing an all-in.
vs. MC. i dont remember this one as well, but didn't he do a roach-ling rush that was shut down by MC? nothing to see here people, move along.
vs. MVP. MVP read stephano's style (upgraded lings to infestors) and just took a shit on it with his marine / hellion timing attack.
MVP's game showed how weak stephano's play was. in the gsl format, where players have days to prepare for player specific matches, i don't see stephano achieving much. just my opinion of course.
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On December 20 2011 09:44 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 09:39 MrSalamandra wrote:On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we? Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2. his stats are good, the two games he won were not. vs. hero. it was a joke. hero did a garbage rush that was shut down with little effort, and then stephano rolled over him with mass roach. vs. DRG. DRG was a joke. DRG went an all-in ling bling style, and Stephano held it off. It was a good job by Stephano holding it off, but it was just preventing an all-in. vs. MVP. MVP read stephano's style (upgraded lings to infestors) and just took a shit on it with his marine / hellion timing attack. MVP's game showed how weak stephano's play was. in the gsl format, where players have days to prepare for player specific matches, i don't see stephano achieving much. just my opinion of course.
I agree with this. As you get better known and 'respected' GSL gets harder and harder. That's why it's so amazing when MVP wins for the 3rd time. there is a huge volume of his paly to study and find weaknesses in yet he still comes out on top.
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On December 20 2011 09:44 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 09:39 MrSalamandra wrote:On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we? Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2. his stats are good, the two games he won were not. vs. hero. it was a joke. hero did a garbage rush that was shut down with little effort, and then stephano rolled over him with mass roach. vs. DRG. DRG was a joke. DRG went an all-in ling bling style, and Stephano held it off. It was a good job by Stephano holding it off, but it was just preventing an all-in. vs. MC. i dont remember this one as well, but didn't he do a roach-ling rush that was shut down by MC. nothing to see here people, move along. vs. MVP. MVP read stephano's style (upgraded lings to infestors) and just took a shit on it with his marine / hellion timing attack. MVP's game showed how weak stephano's play was. in the gsl format, where players have days to prepare for player specific matches, i don't see stephano achieving much. just my opinion of course.
This is a stupid simplification of his games. Not only was he playing the best of the best, you can describe the best games ever to make them seem stupid if you want to.
More recently: Oh the Zerg just sat back and made shit, went ultras and suicided them, switched to broods and had shit economy and ended up dying. DRG is terrible! (wow this is easy!)
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On December 20 2011 09:49 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 09:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:39 MrSalamandra wrote:On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we? Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2. his stats are good, the two games he won were not. vs. hero. it was a joke. hero did a garbage rush that was shut down with little effort, and then stephano rolled over him with mass roach. vs. DRG. DRG was a joke. DRG went an all-in ling bling style, and Stephano held it off. It was a good job by Stephano holding it off, but it was just preventing an all-in. vs. MC. i dont remember this one as well, but didn't he do a roach-ling rush that was shut down by MC. nothing to see here people, move along. vs. MVP. MVP read stephano's style (upgraded lings to infestors) and just took a shit on it with his marine / hellion timing attack. MVP's game showed how weak stephano's play was. in the gsl format, where players have days to prepare for player specific matches, i don't see stephano achieving much. just my opinion of course. This is a stupid simplification of his games. Not only was he playing the best of the best, you can describe the best games ever to make them seem stupid if you want to. More recently: Oh the Zerg just sat back and made shit, went ultras and suicided them, switched to broods and had shit economy and ended up dying. DRG is terrible! (wow this is easy!)
its an idra fan, no point trying to make sense.
i wish they had some kind of qualifier for the spots to make more content. also straight invites seem weird when the koreans have to work a shitton to get there.
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On December 20 2011 09:49 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 09:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:39 MrSalamandra wrote:On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we? Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2. his stats are good, the two games he won were not. vs. hero. it was a joke. hero did a garbage rush that was shut down with little effort, and then stephano rolled over him with mass roach. vs. DRG. DRG was a joke. DRG went an all-in ling bling style, and Stephano held it off. It was a good job by Stephano holding it off, but it was just preventing an all-in. vs. MC. i dont remember this one as well, but didn't he do a roach-ling rush that was shut down by MC. nothing to see here people, move along. vs. MVP. MVP read stephano's style (upgraded lings to infestors) and just took a shit on it with his marine / hellion timing attack. MVP's game showed how weak stephano's play was. in the gsl format, where players have days to prepare for player specific matches, i don't see stephano achieving much. just my opinion of course. This is a stupid simplification of his games. Not only was he playing the best of the best, you can describe the best games ever to make them seem stupid if you want to. More recently: Oh the Zerg just sat back and made shit, went ultras and suicided them, switched to broods and had shit economy and ended up dying. DRG is terrible! (wow this is easy!)
i agree its an over-simplification because nobody wants to read a 2500 word essay on each game. however, the only game that i saw that was impressive was mvp vs stephano where mvp read stephano's style and just crushed it. the game was so ridiculously one-sided, it was amazing. the rest of the games were very unimpressive. like i said in one of my original posts, i will hold out on judgment on stephano, but so far i dont see him as the new foreigner hope. once his style is known, he wont do as well anymore. i am more than willing to be wrong though because i always root for the foreigners over the koreans and would love to see more korean-destroyers.
On December 20 2011 09:56 sopas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 09:49 mprs wrote:On December 20 2011 09:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:39 MrSalamandra wrote:On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we? Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2. his stats are good, the two games he won were not. vs. hero. it was a joke. hero did a garbage rush that was shut down with little effort, and then stephano rolled over him with mass roach. vs. DRG. DRG was a joke. DRG went an all-in ling bling style, and Stephano held it off. It was a good job by Stephano holding it off, but it was just preventing an all-in. vs. MC. i dont remember this one as well, but didn't he do a roach-ling rush that was shut down by MC. nothing to see here people, move along. vs. MVP. MVP read stephano's style (upgraded lings to infestors) and just took a shit on it with his marine / hellion timing attack. MVP's game showed how weak stephano's play was. in the gsl format, where players have days to prepare for player specific matches, i don't see stephano achieving much. just my opinion of course. This is a stupid simplification of his games. Not only was he playing the best of the best, you can describe the best games ever to make them seem stupid if you want to. More recently: Oh the Zerg just sat back and made shit, went ultras and suicided them, switched to broods and had shit economy and ended up dying. DRG is terrible! (wow this is easy!) its an idra fan, no point trying to make sense.
i am not sure you understand how incredibly stupid you sound saying this.
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On December 20 2011 10:01 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 09:49 mprs wrote:On December 20 2011 09:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:39 MrSalamandra wrote:On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we? Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2. his stats are good, the two games he won were not. vs. hero. it was a joke. hero did a garbage rush that was shut down with little effort, and then stephano rolled over him with mass roach. vs. DRG. DRG was a joke. DRG went an all-in ling bling style, and Stephano held it off. It was a good job by Stephano holding it off, but it was just preventing an all-in. vs. MC. i dont remember this one as well, but didn't he do a roach-ling rush that was shut down by MC. nothing to see here people, move along. vs. MVP. MVP read stephano's style (upgraded lings to infestors) and just took a shit on it with his marine / hellion timing attack. MVP's game showed how weak stephano's play was. in the gsl format, where players have days to prepare for player specific matches, i don't see stephano achieving much. just my opinion of course. This is a stupid simplification of his games. Not only was he playing the best of the best, you can describe the best games ever to make them seem stupid if you want to. More recently: Oh the Zerg just sat back and made shit, went ultras and suicided them, switched to broods and had shit economy and ended up dying. DRG is terrible! (wow this is easy!) i agree its an over-simplification because nobody wants to read a 2500 word essay on each game. however, the only game that i saw that was impressive was mvp vs stephano where mvp read stephano's style and just crushed it. the game was so ridiculously one-sided, it was amazing. the rest of the games were very unimpressive. like i said in one of my original posts, i will hold out on judgment on stephano, but so far i dont see him as the new foreigner hope. once his style is known, he wont do as well anymore. i am more than willing to be wrong though because i always root for the foreigners over the koreans and would love to see more korean-destroyers. Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 09:56 sopas wrote:On December 20 2011 09:49 mprs wrote:On December 20 2011 09:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:39 MrSalamandra wrote:On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we? Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2. his stats are good, the two games he won were not. vs. hero. it was a joke. hero did a garbage rush that was shut down with little effort, and then stephano rolled over him with mass roach. vs. DRG. DRG was a joke. DRG went an all-in ling bling style, and Stephano held it off. It was a good job by Stephano holding it off, but it was just preventing an all-in. vs. MC. i dont remember this one as well, but didn't he do a roach-ling rush that was shut down by MC. nothing to see here people, move along. vs. MVP. MVP read stephano's style (upgraded lings to infestors) and just took a shit on it with his marine / hellion timing attack. MVP's game showed how weak stephano's play was. in the gsl format, where players have days to prepare for player specific matches, i don't see stephano achieving much. just my opinion of course. This is a stupid simplification of his games. Not only was he playing the best of the best, you can describe the best games ever to make them seem stupid if you want to. More recently: Oh the Zerg just sat back and made shit, went ultras and suicided them, switched to broods and had shit economy and ended up dying. DRG is terrible! (wow this is easy!) its an idra fan, no point trying to make sense. i am not sure you understand how incredibly stupid you sound saying this.
Maybe it was one sided because MVP picked a build and it worked out?
Not praising Stephano or dissing MVP. I just think judging players based on a bo1 is stupid.
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On December 20 2011 09:40 Roxy wrote:
I think idra and sen are underqualified for code S
dont get me wrong, they are both spectacular players, but they have critical flaws
Idra needs to cheese more so that people will play honest against him. All to often you will see someone getting an edge on him because htey are playing against idra, not becaus ehtey are playing against a zerg that has every zerg strategy at their disposal.
Sen has a critical flaw in the sense that he falls apart late game. I have seen him take a commanding lead on a ton of games only to throw it away in the mid-late game by not expanding or takign advantage of his situation.
Hopefulyl i am wrong about this, and hopefully they just dont get right down to code a (where I think they belong), but that is my guess as to how this will end up.
Lmfao
Have you not watched him in the last 6 months?
He cheeses protoss 30-40% of the time, doing hatch cancel roach all-ins, hydra/nydus timing, roach drops etc.
Agaisnt T, he rarely does roach/ling all-ins, but why should he if his muta play is extremely powerful?
They just usually lose becuase zerg cheese is shitty unless the protoss plays ultimate greedy like Naniwa did vs Leenock with 1 cannon nexus first.
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It wasn't just MVP blindly picking a build though. He identified a flaw in Stephano's game and tailored his build to exploit it. If Stephano were to play in the GSL, that'd happen more often since his opponents would have time to examine and analyze his games and tailor builds to suit what they find. It's the same as people playing greedy against Idra because they know he's not going to do any sort of cheese. If there's a flaw in your game, it's more likely to be exploited in the GSL than MLG or IPL due to the format.
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On December 20 2011 10:15 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
It wasn't just MVP blindly picking a build though. He identified a flaw in Stephano's game and tailored his build to exploit it. If Stephano were to play in the GSL, that'd happen more often since his opponents would have time to examine and analyze his games and tailor builds to suit what they find. It's the same as people playing greedy against Idra because they know he's not going to do any sort of cheese. If there's a flaw in your game, it's more likely to be exploited in the GSL than MLG or IPL due to the format.
That doesn't mean that Stephano's style completely falls by the wayside though. The way he played it out previously is obviously weak to that particular timing attack. If that timing was not something Stephano has seen before, it's perfectly reasonable that he responded suboptimally to it. Given time to look at what MVP did, what he could look for to identify that timing is coming, etc, Stephano (or some other zerg) may be able to identify and respond to that timing correctly.
This analysis of play works both ways. MVP produced a new timing specifically designed for Stephano (and it worked amazingly). Now it's known, Stephano can work out how to survive, so it should not work so well all the time.
You can't just say Stephano is bad because he lost to a timing he's not familiar with that was designed to beat him. By that logic NesTea is bad (or any zerg in gsl) cause they all used to lose to 5 rax reaper, or marine-scv, even when they knew about those rushes and could try to counter them.
Not going to say that Stephano is the great foreigner hope (I do really like his play though). But I think this argument is silly. You can't call any player terrible for losing to a build designed to beat their style. Just means the style needs to be updated. In fact I'd argue it says a lot to me that MVP, the best player in the world (arguably) created a build specifically to punish Stephano. That's showing the kid a pretty damn big amount of respect...
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On December 20 2011 10:09 Steel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 10:01 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:49 mprs wrote:On December 20 2011 09:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:39 MrSalamandra wrote:On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we? Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2. his stats are good, the two games he won were not. vs. hero. it was a joke. hero did a garbage rush that was shut down with little effort, and then stephano rolled over him with mass roach. vs. DRG. DRG was a joke. DRG went an all-in ling bling style, and Stephano held it off. It was a good job by Stephano holding it off, but it was just preventing an all-in. vs. MC. i dont remember this one as well, but didn't he do a roach-ling rush that was shut down by MC. nothing to see here people, move along. vs. MVP. MVP read stephano's style (upgraded lings to infestors) and just took a shit on it with his marine / hellion timing attack. MVP's game showed how weak stephano's play was. in the gsl format, where players have days to prepare for player specific matches, i don't see stephano achieving much. just my opinion of course. This is a stupid simplification of his games. Not only was he playing the best of the best, you can describe the best games ever to make them seem stupid if you want to. More recently: Oh the Zerg just sat back and made shit, went ultras and suicided them, switched to broods and had shit economy and ended up dying. DRG is terrible! (wow this is easy!) i agree its an over-simplification because nobody wants to read a 2500 word essay on each game. however, the only game that i saw that was impressive was mvp vs stephano where mvp read stephano's style and just crushed it. the game was so ridiculously one-sided, it was amazing. the rest of the games were very unimpressive. like i said in one of my original posts, i will hold out on judgment on stephano, but so far i dont see him as the new foreigner hope. once his style is known, he wont do as well anymore. i am more than willing to be wrong though because i always root for the foreigners over the koreans and would love to see more korean-destroyers. On December 20 2011 09:56 sopas wrote:On December 20 2011 09:49 mprs wrote:On December 20 2011 09:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:39 MrSalamandra wrote:On December 20 2011 09:33 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 09:17 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 20 2011 08:58 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 20 2011 08:42 power-overwhelming wrote:
Let's be real. Idra only got the invite because he equates to more viewers to GOM. this is so true. they couldnt have given him the spot because he was in code s before he left korea to compete in the US and foreigner tournaments, and is only now returning to korea to compete. oh, wait, that could actually be the reason. Jinro was also in Code S. Guess GOM has to give it back now huh. Him returning to Korea was not GOM's pretext. GOM stated that their reasoning was "outstanding foreign performance". That totally a slap on the face to Stephano. Sen deserves it, but Idra? Come on he only brings with him his massive fanboys and more viewers. This is a business move by GOM. Skillwise he's not even top 5 foreigner. you dont see the difference between idra and jinro? idra was code s, left korea and is now coming back. jinro was code s and then lost it and has been unable to re-attain the position. despite being an idra fan, i think idra will lose it as well, but gom is recognizing the potential and giving him that chance. idra is well known in korea because of his past success at GSL, and has done reasonably well in foreigner tournaments. i am not sure why you think sen is better than idra. both are great players and both deserving of the code s spots. as for stephano, many consider his wins a fluke rather than him being the newest foreigner hope. i will hold out judgment on this, but i believe consistently doing well is worth more than winning a few tournaments where nobody knows your style. based on stephano's recent performance at the blizzcup, i am not sure he would make it in code s either. nevertheless, maybe GOM considered stephano and rejected him for other reasons, or stephano rejected the idea of competing in GSL. we don't know what they based their decisions on, now do we? Stephano did decently in the Blizzard Cup, he didn't advance, but he did go 2-2. his stats are good, the two games he won were not. vs. hero. it was a joke. hero did a garbage rush that was shut down with little effort, and then stephano rolled over him with mass roach. vs. DRG. DRG was a joke. DRG went an all-in ling bling style, and Stephano held it off. It was a good job by Stephano holding it off, but it was just preventing an all-in. vs. MC. i dont remember this one as well, but didn't he do a roach-ling rush that was shut down by MC. nothing to see here people, move along. vs. MVP. MVP read stephano's style (upgraded lings to infestors) and just took a shit on it with his marine / hellion timing attack. MVP's game showed how weak stephano's play was. in the gsl format, where players have days to prepare for player specific matches, i don't see stephano achieving much. just my opinion of course. This is a stupid simplification of his games. Not only was he playing the best of the best, you can describe the best games ever to make them seem stupid if you want to. More recently: Oh the Zerg just sat back and made shit, went ultras and suicided them, switched to broods and had shit economy and ended up dying. DRG is terrible! (wow this is easy!) its an idra fan, no point trying to make sense. i am not sure you understand how incredibly stupid you sound saying this. Maybe it was one sided because MVP picked a build and it worked out? Not praising Stephano or dissing MVP. I just think judging players based on a bo1 is stupid.
i agree that basing anything on one bo1, or even a bo3, or even a bo31 (qxc and catz!!) or even one tournament is stupid. thats why i have repeatedly said that i will hold out on judgment on stephano (all you have to do is read the quoted part of this thread to see that). what i was saying (originally) is that stephano is a new face and nobody knows him or his style yet. thus, when people realize his style (i gave the example of mvp's game), i am not sure he will do as well anymore. whether stephano is in fact better than idra, only time will tell. stephano has certainly proven himself to be great though and has won a lot more money than idra so far.
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Totally agree with you. I don't think Stephano is bad.
All I'm saying is that the situation in that game wasn't MVP just deciding to try a Marine/Hellion play that just happened to hit a timing Stephano couldn't handle. MVP knew exactly what he was doing and put together a build that punishes an opening in Stephano's play. That's the kind of thing that you'd have to expect to happen in GSL since the players have so much time to prepare for every match. If there's an opening, it'll be exploited. Other players have commented on this, specifically with regard to Stephano.
I'm not trying to make a larger point, just responding to Maybe it was one sided because MVP picked a build and it worked out?. That kind of thing can happen when you have an exploitable opening. You saw it happening to a lot of Zergs after Anaheim as well.
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both deserving, the 2 best foreigner zergs (dimaga and stephano arent too far off)
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It's highly likely that if Stephano wanted Code S, they would've given it to him. However, he has stated before that he doesn't want to play in Korea so eh.
That being said, they were all Bo1s and judging a player's standing (particularly one who did quite well) based on one day is pretty shortsighted imo.
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We will see very soon how well they will do. I know I'm going to be buying a ticket for next season.
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Because the mod note said to Please discuss IdrA and Sen in Code S January I will discuss IdrA and Sen in Code S January, after all I mean "Please discuss IdrA and Sen in Code S January" is practically what the OP said since the topic was about IdrA and Sen in Code S January so I will say im glad for them and hope they do well and Please discuss IdrA and Sen in Code S January.
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EPT
